The truth about Ash

[(PSN)Vexx757]

 

Note: Hold ctrl and F to view the the following sections;

Issues

Stats

Look/try for yourself

The Ultimate Revisit

[(PSN)Vexx757]

So I will first show the reason why Ash needs a revisit, then I will give Ash the ultimate revisit.

 

Firstly, it`s a misconception that Ash is amazing, through my own investigation I have come to realise that Ash is popular online but not in-game.

Why?

Spoiler

Online people talk about how “amazing” and “perfect” Ash is and they all have something in common…

Oh, I love steel path, steel path is amazing and I love the helminth system.

However, I have talked to multiple people in-game and when I talk to people will little experience with Ash, here is what happens…

·       When I explain how the old bladestorm use to work vs the current one and I ask which sounds better, the majority say the old one sounds better (which it was).

·       When I explain Ash`s issues, they are open for understanding and for agree with me.

·       When I tell them how I would revisit his smoke screen, they all loved it.

·       They tell me they played him and then put him aside.

Here`s the big one…

·       They tell me they watch a youtuber about Ash, was amazed, played him and didn`t like him.

Why? Not coz his 1 is “weak”, not coz his 2 has low duration, not coz his 3 is inconsistent coz of the marking mechanic on bladestorm which shows in spades what people value and what new players are hearing about Ash.

 

Issues

 

Shuriken

·       Shuriken is only good with its augment, an augment is meant to be used as an option and not to make the ability better, which means on its own it`s not worth using.

·       Because of the way bladestorm works, it makes it redundant due to bs doing more damage and costing less energy.

·       If there are 3 enemies in front of you and you want to kill the one in the right, sometimes it will target the other two enemies instead of the one you want even if you`re aiming at it.

Spoiler

·       The only way it will be affective is if you spam the ability however you will lose out on energy doing so plus you can`t control what enemy you want it to hit and (in other ppl`s eyes) why do that when you can use bs? There is no distinction between the two.

 

Smoke Screen

·       The duration of it is low and even though I don`t have any issue with it I understand why other ppl would.

 

Teleport

·       When teleporting to enemies it`s not consistent in opening them up to finishers.

Spoiler

 

·       People use it`s augment as a bandade coz the bug which means the ability on its own is bad.

·       On consoles it`s changed to where the finisher prompt is separate from the melee button which makes it which kind of brakes the flow of it.

·       If a enemy is under a stun, it can`t interrupt it to be able to open them up to a finisher.

Spoiler

 

Bladestorm… so many issues

Spoiler

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

·       Bodies disappearing makes it to where you can`t bring him in a desecrating team with a nekros. While bodies disappearing makes sense on paper for him being a ninja and I like the idea, unfortunately, this just makes him a problem in that team.

·       The indicator shows how many marks instead of how many enemies affected by bs. Because of this, you have no idea how many enemies are going to be killed. If it showed how many enemies affected by bs, it will let the play know when to use bs again.

·       Using your 2nd ability to use less energy is not synergy. Synergy is meant to be a choice that makes a difference in missions however, this so-called synergy is a must to use it consistently which makes it a bad gimmick.

·       Because of the synergy between his 2nd & 4th ability, you are forced to mod for duration to benefit from using less energy for bs since most people are not going to use bs while it`s taking more energy.

·       Using the 3rd ability to join the animation costs no energy but you need energy to be able to use it which makes no sense plus, in low-level missions, sometimes you`re not even going to get a chance use your 3rd ability because the apparitions have killed the enemies already. (depending on how many enemies you mark)

·       Apparitions (clones) appearance is not consistent. The visuals go from looking like you custom coloured Ash to a hologram version, to the original ash look with default colours. Also, this is a bug that the old bs had which means it has not been fixed.

·       When marking, you can`t mark enemies that are behind walls or objects which make you have to run around searching for enemies to kill and if you in a team, your marked enemies will be killed off by your teammates.

·       Even if Ash`s damage has increased to 2,000, (his damage now is still great) the damage is not as good compared to the old bs. The apparitions of the old bs was like Saryn`s 1st ability damage but slightly better, (and the terminator) the apparitions would not stop killing until the enemies were dead and even though attack speed mods can increase their killing speed, with the current bs, the apparitions only attack three times however the bleeding damage speed cannot.

·       Because of the way it works, it makes shuriken not favoured in use due to the amount of energy bs costs when modding and how much damage it does and how quick enemies will be killed when activated. This make some people use bs over shuriken.

·       The marking mechanic makes the ability ineffective in close-quarter, tight spaces which is what  the majority of the tilesets are, this makes the ability less effective and mostly useless even more so it a team.

·       You can`t pick and choose what enemies you want to kill; (which people claim you can do) on paper it makes sense however in practise the idea is not useful. For example, if you wanted to mark an energy eximus in-between two other enemies and you only have enough energy to mark one enemy, you are not able to.

Reasons;

· Enemies are running around to where you will either run out of energy or you simply can`t mark the eximus.

· You will have to stand there trying to mark that one enemy.

· You have a chance to get hit by a stray bullet or by an explosion whether you use your 2nd ability or not.

· If you’re playing in a team, someone WILL take the kill from you.

· Teleport can do it better and is faster at it. (this alone destroys the purpose of using it that way)

 

Stats

 

Here are some stats about Ash.

 

Spoiler

 

This shows the warframes that are subsumed the most, as you can see Ash`s 1 is 4th because once again his augment.

 

Spoiler

This shows the abilities that are infused the most used (which also means used the most) Ash`s shuriken is called "glaive" and is the 19th ability on the list however the reason it`s on the list as I said before is not of the ability itself but because of it`s augment (seeking shuriken) which means if it wasn`t for the augment it wouldn`t even be on the list which shows the issue of the ability.

 

Spoiler

This shows the warframe abilities that are replaced the most. As you can see Ash`s 1st is within the top 10 which says a lot and his 4th is 22nd on this list, again it`s the marking mechanic that is the reason why it even on here.

 

And the last one that ultimately proves my point...

Spoiler

This shows the most replaced abilities. As you can see his 1st is the most replaced coz without it`s augment, ppl aren’t using it.

The second replaced is his 4th, which to me is no surprise. Despite it doing 2,000 damage at base, doing slash damage, true damage and can be increased by the combo multi it`s second, if an ability can do all that there is no way in heck it should be so high, why is it so high? It`s simple because of the marking mechanic.

 

 

Even though I don`t really care about the helminth system that much, one thing I like about it is that it shows how ppl feel about warframe abilities and what abilities/frames need another lookover and Ash needs it. No matter what ppl say actions speak louder than words.

 

At the time ash was ranked the number #1 favourite warframe by votes on Mogamu`s channel in 2016. Two years later, he is one of the least played warframe stated by DE themselves on life of rio`s video in 2018.

 

Mogamu - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6u7vNIpkeY

Life Of Rio - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJRx6oTxF1Y

 

 

And this shows before the "revisit" Ash was both popular online and in-game.

 

Two years later…

Spoiler

Think about, this was over one ability change which means the other three abilities were not good enough on their own for ppl to keep playing him.

 

Look/try for yourself

 

I`m not going to say that I have seen every video on Ash but if you search on YouTube for Ash videos, you won`t find any videos of ppl playing him in a team and staying with that team using bs. In fact, there is one youtuber that`s done just that and despite what he says his video shown the opposite.

Spoiler

 

Go to these time points in the video. I know I`m starting in the mid of the video but it will make sense as you read on. This is him testing bs in the simulacrum.

Spoiler

7:00- 7:15: You notice how excited he get that he killed them all? Yh but you`re by yourself killing.

Here he is using bs in public.

2:44 – 2:55: It does matter when the point is to kill them but you can coz allies killed them off.

2:55- 3:04: What you saying doesn`t match what we are seeing. (pay attention to what he says vs what he`s showing)

4:18: He say he only targeted 2 enemies but the footage shows he marked more than that. Do I need to say why?

4:37: He`s on pc look how fast he`s moving his mouse all that for 1 enemy.

5:29- 5:36: Yes, it sounds good... ON PAPER, but in a co-op game in public in practise not so much

I believe this is why ppl don`t show footage of Ash in a team, because that footage will prove the issues that Ash has. Peoples reviews and showings of Ash`s bs is in the simulacrum BY THEMSELFS.

 

Here is a comment from someone in the comment section on youtube that I copied and pasted from. This person is able to see the issues Ash has. Very good analysis.

Spoiler

the marking mechanic is fun for awhile, but after playing for like 5 days you'll learn that its such an obnoxious mechanic especially running high level missions with never ending enemies, yeah good luck marking all of them OR trying to pick your targets, the marking mechanic becomes sloppy and unreliable. You waste so much time on marking enemies while your squad mates just farts and kill all the enemies around you. You cant mark enemies behind walls or hidden places yet you know they are there because your radar shows it in red dots, its so annoying. Play style now changes to just quickly swiping your mouse left and right to efficiently mark as many enemies as you can with 3 marks per enemy... try playing like that for 20 mins. so fun.

At the end of the day you start thinking, why should i use BS when you have other BETTER means to dispatch groups of enemies? like just using your Zarr, aim and shoot. done. lol Zarr even have a secondary function that shoots like a shot gun, so this rifle is able to dish out a good AoE damage AND close quarter killing, a more faster and efficient weapon than an Ultimate...

Ash is the only Warframe in the game that has a two step activation Ultimate. Every other Warframe's Ultimate are instant. Banshee, Saryn, Mag, Frost, Loki, Mesa etc doesnt matter, the Ultimate is done in a fast manner*, no other Warframe needs to "aim" or "mark" their targets****. Imagine Ember's WoF needs to mark her targets first THEN the fires will burn em. or Frost, Saryn or Mag needs to mark their targets in order to freeze, poison or crush them. hahaha Loki's Irradiated Disarm, Mark your targets first THEN disarm them... yeah in a fast paced game like Warframe it just doesnt work.

The simple solution to BS is just reverting it back to the old mechanic but increase the energy use for BS in increments so that BS cant be spammed (but used as a well placed calculated attack) and allies are able to kill Ash's marked enemies (and perhaps gain some bonus buff from it). Thats it. problem solved. Yet... we got THIS rework (nerf). similar to the sentinel vacuum scenario, 1 simple way to solve a problem but DE gave us the most convoluted way imaginable as their solution. So no, Bladestorm is not a good change at all. Its the worst Warframe rework to date.

Its funny how "ooh ASH is too OP please nerf him DE" and guess what? DE listened, yet you have this Warframe that is able to HEAL AND GIVE ENERGY to ALL WARFRAMES and even after several reworks, Trinity is still a powerful frame because inherently, she is the master of 2 of the most important mechanics in the game that is HP and ENERGY....sure thats not OP. whats so wrong about Ash killing 17 enemies?

 

Go and do a normal Earth defence mission with a team and use bs, to a place where damage doesn’t matter to where even Nekros`s 1st ability can kill them and you will see what will happen to you, better yet try doing it by yourself and see how long it takes you to complete it. Imo warframe abilities (damage abilities) should be usable no matter where you go e.g. Nezha`s 2nd ability.

 

Here is a video which shows that he can`t kill level six enemies with another player because of the marking mechanic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdMM5eXYaIA&feature=youtu.be

Let’s go into detail what we see in the footage.

Spoiler

·       When Oberon cast his 4th Ash get two out of six kills.

·       You will see the bs indicator going from six marks down to two marks due to Oberon.

·       You will see that I activated bs (the 2nd part of bs`s activation) before Oberon put his hand down in his animation and he still killed more than me, If I activated the marking and Oberon activated his 4 at the same time Oberon would have probably taken all of my kills due to quick activation.

·       If you look at the clone that looks like my Ash, you will notice that it didn`t even finish the killing animation move coz Oberon slammed the enemy 1st but somehow the clone was able to kill it.

·       You also see the inconsistencies with the clone`s appearance, one looks like my customised Ash while the other looks like a hologram.

This makes no sense, he can deal over 2,000 damage but he can`t kill level 6 enemies in a team (or with someone), the way bs is now it only can be used in high level missions and open spaces vs old bs where it can be used anywhere and at any level. If you`re still not convinced after all this just go do a defence mission on Earth with a team and you will see what happens with the amount of kills you will get.

I said it once and i`ll say it again, the marking mechanic should never be tied to damage EVER! and if the marking mechanic was given to Saryn, Ember, Equinox, Banshee and Mesa`s 4th NO ONE WOULD USE THEM ANYMORE which proves why it`s bad on Ash.

 

I was the only one back in 2016 that voiced Ash issues and I got ridiculed for it. I`m glad that more ppl are voicing it but it took too long, I feel like I’m the only one that took the red pill while everyone else was taking the blue pill.

 

And the part you have been waiting for...

 

 The Ultimate Revisit

Listen while you read (loop it) TRUST ME

Spoiler

 

If you like my revisit please show support by sharing this post, If you want my idea to be implemented to Ash please sign and share my petition so DE can see this and make Ash way better than he is/was.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

 

·       All abilities can be cast while on ziplines.

 

Shuriken:

Spoiler

·       If an enemy is un-alerted and is killed in one hit it is considered as a stealth kill.

·       Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and has 100% crit chance.

·       Critical damage is 1.5 at base however you can increase it based on what crit damage mods you have equipped on your melee weapon.

·       Headshots will do more damage.

·       The held version works like the way Nezha`s 2nd ability does. Quick cast, straight path and more damage.

·       The held version will have increased flight speed.

·       The more health the enemy loses, the slower the enemy moves when bleeding out.

·       When the enemy stops bleeding, it will go back to its normal movement speed, If you hit the same enemy that was affected before, it will go back to the same slow speed and will keep getting slower until it`s lifeless.

·       It has a 1 second combo window, the more you use the ability, the more damage it does, the less energy it takes.

·       The built-up damage multiplier from spamming it can affect the held version of shuriken.

·       The held version can pause the 1 sec combo duration drain indicator so that you have time to get the full damage out of it but the decreased energy won`t carry over to it.

·       Depending on the damage built up from the combo multiplayer will determine the increase of critical damage from the held version, if high enough it can reach red crits.

This makes Ash more strategic by giving a choice of who he wants to kill and makes him better at killing single target enemies.

 

Smoke Screen:

Spoiler

·       Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.

·       The knockback is 1 sec and the stun is 3 secs.

·       The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.

·       The smoke cloud has a 5m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       The 4 sec stun also affects osprays by them visually float down to the ground before recovering.

·       The stun can interrupt and override enemies that`s already affected by a stun.

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will receive a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage. If allies are in the cloud they cannot be targeted by enemies.

·       If Ash stays in the cloud his personal duration won`t start until either he leaves the cloud or the cloud duration runs out.

·       Allies that are in the cloud are visually translucent to show that they are unseen by enemies.

·       All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.

·       When Ash is invisible, the apparitions from bs are also translucent to show that they cannot be seen by enemies.

·       Remove muffled sound while invisible.

These improvement makes this ability strategic and you have more than one way to use the ability.

 

Teleport:

Spoiler

·       Holding the ability will show an indicator of where he can teleport to from the radical.

·       The teleport stun can interrupt and override enemies that`s already affected by a stun and any movement/animations they are currently in.

·       When teleporting to enemies with the held version, enemies won`t detect you when in close proximity and it won`t open enemy to finishers.

·       The cast speed of the held version is half a second.

·       Teleporting to a wall will make ash hang to the wall for 10 seconds if you press the aim glide button (you don`t needs to hold the button to hang on to it). While hanging on the wall Ash can either bullet jump of the wall or teleport to an enemy or a surface.

·       You can teleport through windows if there are allies, npcs, enemies, objects with a health bar or is scannable objects on the other side of it.

·       Not only it can teleport to anything with a health bar, it can also teleport to anything that can be scanned.

·       It can also bypass grates and fans if there is space on the other side of it.

·       If you can see an ally or enemy through a wall you can teleport to them.

·       You are able to teleport to enemies that are in the air.

·       After teleporting to an airborne enemy, you can perform melee attacks which will keep him airborne.

·       The damage from melee will be the same as the damage from finishers.

·       Even if an enemy is already stunned it will still able to be open to a finisher.

·       If he targets an enemy behind cover, he will teleport behind it for a finisher instead of just standing above them.

·       He can perform front finishers on moas and infested enemies.

These tweaks Ash`s 3rd ability will improve his teleporting abilities and gives him the option from focus enemy targeting to teleporting anywhere with less limitations.

 

Bladestorm:

Spoiler

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Enemies that are within the radius of the enemy your radical in on will be affected by it.

·       The target range is 30m while the radius is 20m which can be increased by range mods.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       It ignores line of site.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       On deactivation or when blade storm ends while in the animation, Ash teleports back to the position where he first activated it.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

·       Sliding before activating will increase the animation speed and clones` attack speed by 20%.

·       You sentinel will not only be invulnerable but will also visually disappear while in the animation, this also including visually pickups from vacuum.

Why this logically makes blade storm better;

 

·       Ash`s bs is still slow when it comes to dps however, at lease because it`s an instant activation, he will at least get to the enemies 1st before any other frame`s damage ability does.

·       The current bs we have now made him absolutely useless in a team but with my changes, at least in a high-level mission he can kill more efficiently which in turn make the team less likely to get downed.

·       The choice of whether you want to be in the animations or not is much easier to pull off. The way it is now, if you use bs and you want to join the animation, but you have no energy you can’t join it even through it`s not meant to cost any energy to do so.

·       The indicator lets you know when you can use bs again.

·       Other people can take his kills while bs is still active which won`t matter coz of the amount of enemies he can kill.

 

Interactive blade storm animation (optional)

Spoiler

If you don`t want to be in the animation, it will act as normal however if you decide to be involved in the animation, you have a chance to gain bonus duration of slash ticks and 1% animation speed increase in the next use however, you have to be interactive within the animation.

 

While in the animation;

·       You have to press the melee button in sink when his stabs enemies in the animation.

·       When doing so, there is an indicator showing the buffs and successful hits which will be converted into duration of slash ticks and animation speed increase.

·       The more successful hits you get the more animation speed you can get in the next use e.g. 10 successful hits = 10% animation speed.

·       The maximus slash duration bonus you can receive is 7 seconds.

·       If you jump out of bs you will lose the bonuses.

·       The bonuses slash tick duration will also include all weapon types. (even weapons that don’t have slash)

·       If you don`t interact with at least five animation cutscenes and get three successful hits, you will only deal half of bs damage. (2000 damage + no interaction = 1000 damage.

 

Since Ash doesn`t have any synergy (or any good ones) here are some that will improve his performance;

 

Synergies

Smoke Screen + Shuriken, Teleport & Blade Storm:

·       If you use any ability while you`re invisible, enemy bodies will disappear.

·       While smoke screen is active enemies won`t be able to detect Ash or enemies killed when in close proximity.

 

Shuriken + Teleport:

·       Using the 1st ability on an enemy will show their health bar through walls longer, making you able to teleport to them as long as they are continually receiving bleeding ticks.

 

Shuriken + Blade Storm:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks your damage will increase over time with no limit.

·       Enemies need to be alive and bleeding from the 1st ability for bs to build up damage.

·       If no enemies are affected by slash, you will have five seconds before the damage is lost.

·       If the five seconds timer reaches zero, the stored-up damage will decay overtime.

·       There will be an indicator showing the amount of damage you are accumulating and the amount of time you have left.

·       If you get downed, the timer won`t start until you are revived.

 

Fixes:

·       Make Ash be able to teleport in and out of the same grates instead of just one direction.

·       Make opening enemies up to finishers consistent with 3rd ability.

·       Sometime ash is glitched and stabbing the air and he is unseen when using bs due to camera angle.

·       Make the “clones” look like him (like wukong`s 1st ability) instead of looking like a hologram.

·       When blade storm is done, Ash doesn’t appear at the same place he started at but instead is teleported in a different location.

·       If he targets an enemy behind cover with his 3rd ability, he will teleport behind them for a finisher instead of just standing above them.

 

As much as I like my improvements to bladestorm, if I was thinking like DE I would have to make some changes to make it more balanced.

Balance Changes:

Spoiler

·       It costs 100 energy at base.

·       It no longer increases damage from the combo multiplier. 

·       Remove the synergy for Bladestorm to cost less energy when Smoke Screen is active (no reason for this to exist)

·       While in the animation, Ash will receive 70% damage reduction, if downed Bladestorm will stop.

·       Bladestorm does 1,000 damage like before.

 

To see more things I say relating to Ash go to each, press CTRL + F then type Vexx-info to view them and follow the post to see them.

If you like my revisit please show support by sharing this post, If you want my idea to be implemented to Ash please sign and share my petition so DE can see this and make Ash way better than he is/was.

http://chng.it/TVJnXgZC

I love Ash I play him 24% of the time but I'm not going to ignore the facts, all I want is for Ash to get a revisit on the level of Nezha`s revisit or better, If Ash is like this it would make doing things like this fun as heck.

Spoiler

[TARINunit9]

Lemme skim through this... some good points but also some points exaggerated too much.

...I don't think Ash's 1 being replaced is a symptom of bad design. I think it's a symptom of older design. Ash's 1 is a very standard ability of yesteryear, a quick one-handed cast you use while reloading to hit a priority target with status effects. With Volt it's an Elec proc, with Frost it's Freeze, and with Ash it's a Slash proc. I think his 1 should be cheaper, maybe give it the Atlas's 1 treatment where it gets an energy discount if you cast it several times. Does Ash need buffs? Yes. But we don't need to make a mountain out of a molehill while there's other 1's that are even worse. Chroma's 1 for example

Ash's 3 needs bugfixes, I agree, get on that DE

As for Ash's 4. Is it bad? Yes. Is it bad because other players can steal your kills? No. If that was a mark of bad quality, Saryn would be the only good frame.

Is the marking mechanic slow and unfun? Yes. Unfortunately it exists for a reason: because DE didn't like the old version where the clones would automatically attack everything in a 25m radius. They wanted to nerf it, they were pretty unsubtle about it.

Ever since that nerf, they reworked Ember. And her 4 is... pretty darn similar to what Original BladeStorm could do. Tap it once and everything in front of her gets hit by meteors. I think DE might just need to bite the bullet and turn BladeStorm into Ember's 4 (but obviously with Slash instead of Fire)

[(PSN)IdoThea]

Now if only I could even get him but that grind....... 

[Defion]

Maybe I missed a update somewhere but wasnt blade-storm dmg tied into combo counter and your melee weapon?

I currently started to re-use Ash P  more and I love him while being solo or survival, but the moment I do short missions like exterminate public.... well.... then I feel like he really falls apart (granted I basicly only use the smoke screen blade-storm combo) and energy isnt a problem either (altough i use the old arcane helmet with ash to increase his energy pool to 144 max).

Oh and doesnt stealth like being in smoke screen also increases dmg done?

That being said, I do truely miss the old blade-storm but I argee on the stance it was mostly used to troll others so they hardly could get any kills thus ruinening their fun.

[AegidiusF]

Hi,

Just some remarks :

 

Il y a 2 heures, (PSN)Vexx757 a dit :

This shows the abilities that are subsumed the most, as you can see Ash`s 1 is 4th because once again his augment.

This graph shows the subsumed Warframes, not the abilities infused on other frames. All 44 warframes available at that time are present. Ash, Oberon, Rhino, Valkyr are frames easily got in the game, at the time (Ash and Oberon have changed since then), so they could be easily crafted and given to the Helminth.

 

Il y a 2 heures, (PSN)Vexx757 a dit :

This shows the abilities that are used the most and as you can see, Ash is not even on this list.

This do not show the most used abilities, but the infusion rate of Helminth abilities. All 52 infusable abilities at that time are present here, even Ash's Shuriken, but the name used in this graph is the name the ability has in the game code.

 

Il y a 2 heures, (PSN)Vexx757 a dit :

This shows the warframe abilities that are replaced the most. As you can see Ash`s 1st is within the top 10 which says a lot and his 4th is 22nd on this list, again it`s the marking mechanic that is the reason why it even on here.

I don't thik this means much, as it depends on the frame that the ability is infused and wich function it will have.

 

Il y a 2 heures, (PSN)Vexx757 a dit :

Shuriken is only good with its augment, an augment is meant to be used as an option and not to make the ability better, which means on its own it`s not worth using.

The Augment system replaced the old Ability system. Before, to be able to use an ability on your warframe, you had to put this ability Mod on your build : as an exemple, if you wanted your Volt to have the Shock ability, you had to put the Shock Mod They changed it, and the abilities are no more tied to a Mod. This created the possibility to change the Ability behavior, introducing a more polyvalent gameplay for the warframes with the Augment Mods system.

In my opinion, the Augment Mod system is nice to balance some abilities, making them useful for high level missions, without making these abilities OP for low level missions. On low level missions, enemy armor is not a problem and Ash' Shuriken can kill enemies without is Augment.

Il y a 2 heures, (PSN)Vexx757 a dit :

·       The two stages of the killing process make bs slow, because of this, other players can take his kills before you get a chance to kill them which makes him not helpful in the team, not fun to play and in a fast-pasted game this is bad.

·       Marking enemies for some players is sickening because of the motion of moving the cursor onto enemies, even though it`s easier (but still a problem) to do this using a mouse, doing this on a controller is not as easy, an ability should be able to be easy to use no matter what you use.

·       Because enemies are highlighted by your chosen energy colour, it will make enemies more visible to other players to go and kill them which in their minds is a top priority.

This is true for many other frames. By the time you cast and full charges Nova's Antimatter Drop, the whole bunch of enemies are already dead, and there are many other exemples.

The problem you are pointing here is not about Ash, but about playing with a squad on a Grind/Farm game where the time spend on mission is precious (it's the same problem, by the way, that is in the origin of the "AoE METE" - or, much better, the Multiple Target META, as some of the most used weapons are not AoE, but just multi-target weapons).

 

Il y a 1 heure, TARINunit9 a dit :

As for Ash's 4. Is it bad? Yes. Is it bad because other players can steal your kills? No. If that was a mark of bad quality, Saryn would be the only good frame.

I totally agree with this.

[(XBOX)C4ES4R67]

All very interesting opinions & views on Ash, 1 of my favourite frames since I started playing back in 2015. All i know is, he's a very good frame at what he does & I enjoy using him with Banshees silence over his 3rd ability & he's always a solid choice for high lvl or endurance. He's had changes since 2015 but he's still a great frame with a fantastic passive. Give him a break.

 

[Azamagon]

Fixing Ash's issues requires fixing other aspects of the game too.

1 - Armor vs Slash-procs

If armor didn't scale with levels, and enemies had higher health to compensate, that would (along with other needed changes to damagetypes) help fix Slash-procs not being so OP, and in turn could let Ash be less clunky without the risk of becoming ridiculously OP.

2 - Finisher stuns

This really needs to be a debuff with a clear icon indication (like Mercy-finishers), so that enemies can be finisher'd regardless of what animation they are in.

-----------------

As for Ash himself, I think making Teleport a better mobility-toll (and RELIABLE) and making Smoke Screen a bit better in terms of team survivability would both indeed be very nice. But I still think Bladestorm and Shuriken needs bigger differentiations than what you have proposed. Your Bladestorm rework (or rewind, mostly) would be fine if the "armor vs slash-procs" issue was addressed or if it had limitted access (like it's fueled by charges, which you get from kills?). But assuming Bladestorm is spammable, that leaves Shuriken...

What is it supposed to do?

Smoke Screen is survivability.
Teleport is mobility and single target nukage.
Bladestorm is multi target nukage.

I can see Shuriken taking two main routes:

1) Utility tool

2) Synergy tool, with more changes needed for Bladestorm

Let's check them

1 - Utility

What could it do? Well, I can see some ideas here:

• If slash is only partially ignoring armor, giving it the armor-debuff by default is one thing it could do.
• Another would be the slowdown you proposed, but I think that's a bit meager as its sole utility.
• Combo point booster? Bladestorm already does this though.
• Bleed speed-up?

Sidenote: The holdcast shuriken going straight forward is nice for control, but id add more to it so it has more uses: Make it WIDE (like Naramon's Levitation-ability and/or as thick as an Arca Plasmor shot in height) and give it lots of punchthrough. This width could be visuzalised by a lot of ash eminating from the shuriken (like some razorsharp ash/wind-particles).

2 - Synergy

For the "synergy-version" of Shurken, I'd start by changing Bladestorm: Bladestorm would no longer be a targetted ability, but is rather cast from Ash, similar to most "nuke ultimates" (Miasma, Avalanche etc), but needs line of sight towards its victims. This also gives more importance to Teleport for distanceclosing, but could also help Shuriken have synergy: Namely, enemies struck by Shuriken are also temporarily marked for Bladestorm useage, regardless of their distance from Ash - and with Shuriken going through walls, it helps him cast Bladestorm through walls as well.

Sure, this version of Ash could still let Shuriken have a bunch of utilities, but it could work pretty well in unison with Bladestorm for more targets and more distant targets with the help of Shuriken - especially if the heldcast Shuriken had the bigger and wider hitbox.

[Unimira]

I use Ash as a more fun Loki replacement in some missions, compared to many other frames Ash feels pretty wholesome with proper synergies. Sucks that most abilities need augments to be useful, those augments are really powerful though.

His smoke screen augment is good too since it gives a +150% crit chance to everyone cloaked by the ability.

I have to admit it was the Koga skin that made me give him another look, he really sucks without augments so the first impression was horrible.

[Graavarg]

You have some good points, but you're kind of missing THE point from my perspective. That being that we don't need another "speed warframe" and that Ash isn't that kind of warframe in the first place. His role is not to compete with speed running AoE spammers for kills, but to be a perfect tool for another type of playing Warframe: more sneaky and more deliberate, and better suited for solo play.

Sure, like with most warframes his abilities could be buffed/improved and sure, it sucks that Ash is at his best when you have all four augments in your build. But I would much rather let Ash stay as he is, with one single addition:

• increase all his basic stats pseudo-exponentially for every augment in use.

"Pseudo-exponentially" means something like 10% for one, 25% for two, 50% for three and 100% for four equipped augments. This augment bonus would increase his base health, shields, armor, energy and initial energy values and the corresponding rank increases.

The "base" part is important, since that is the basis calculations when using mods. A 100% increase in base armor would, in practical terms, double the effect of a mod like Steel Fiber. So Ash Prime with Steel Fiber would normally end up with 175 base + 110% = 368 armor, but would with 4 augments and Steel Fiber instead end up with (2 x 175) = 350 base + 110% = 735 armor. Of course, armor doesn't increase with rank (except for Nidus & Lavos?) and the other base stats do, but the idea is the same even if his health, shields and energy also increases with rank.

It is not that Ash is currently too weak, he isn't. It is that Ash, maybe more than any other warframe, feels like "potential unfulfilled" without his augments. Like an "economy" version vs a "deluxe" one. An augment-related simple bonus increase of base stats, as per above, would not change who he is, but would add a lot of flexibility, especially against higher level enemies.

It would even sort of fit with with the space ninja assassin lore, the more "space ninja assassin" he goes (using augments) the stronger he gets.

[DroopingPuppy]

Well, when I was too boring and choose to play Ash, the first thing to do was what to replace his 4. Although I need more better ability, but I have some limited success on replace his 4 by Airburst due to its high slash proc that would be work well with his passive. Well, Airburst seems more likely the 'Bladestorm' than his own.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

On 2022-06-07 at 7:11 AM, (XBOX)C4ES4R67 said:

All very interesting opinions & views on Ash, 1 of my favourite frames since I started playing back in 2015. All i know is, he's a very good frame at what he does & I enjoy using him with Banshees silence over his 3rd ability & he's always a solid choice for high lvl or endurance. He's had changes since 2015 but he's still a great frame with a fantastic passive. Give him a break.

 

^^^

Ash is great. I also run him with Silence. It just feels good. Both augments too, Savage Silence and Seeking Shuriken. 

 

Ya'll keep begging for a rework and they are going to wreck him.

He's the only "ninja" we have in the game.

Leave him alone!

KEEP ASH'S NAME OUT YOUR MOUTH!!!

(Said in my best Will Smith voice)

[GREF_TM]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

Ya'll keep begging for a rework and they are going to wreck him.

Compared to the ash i got in 2015 as my first prime, he's already wrecked. RIP Bladestorm, as 'braindead' as it was, it was also the only thing that allowed hit to at least somewhat compete with nuke frames. Now, you mark a decent bladestorm, press a button, but nothing happens, because saryn/mesa/whatever on your squad already murdered them three times over.

 

Shuriken is weak as a baby fart. Teleport is underwhelming. Bladestorm is clunky. He doesn't need a rework, but he does need buffs for his 1 3 4.

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

13 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

Compared to the ash i got in 2015 as my first prime, he's already wrecked. RIP Bladestorm, as 'braindead' as it was, it was also the only thing that allowed hit to at least somewhat compete with nuke frames. Now, you mark a decent bladestorm, press a button, but nothing happens, because saryn/mesa/whatever on your squad already murdered them three times over.

 

Shuriken is weak as a baby fart. Teleport is underwhelming. Bladestorm is clunky. He doesn't need a rework, but he does need buffs for his 1 3 4.

I'm not interested in keeping this topic going... and certainly not interested in arguing about it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

...but we have multiple frames that can nuke rooms.

You spoke of 2015, and like you I am a veteran player as well.

I own every frame/weapon/companion/vehicle in the game.

I'm many years past caring where I place on the end mission scoreboard. 

If I choose to clear a mission fast or want big numbers, I have many options to achieve that goal...

 

...but I only have a few options that give me that "ninja" feeling.

I usually run my Ash with a Daikyu and my trusty Dragon Nikana.

(I do equip the Laetum just incase I need to nuke a room or an Acolyte)

 

If you're in a hurry may I suggest a Wukong with a Kuva Zarr.... or any other combination of cheese to your liking.

Ash can not compete with that.

...but he fills a spot that no other frame can.

[Awazx]

First of all, 100% agree with OP: Ash needs a rework. +1

I play several hours a day and it's rare to see an Ash in my squad. The disastrous rework just killed it.

You can only like Ash if you play solo or if you take things easy and want to enjoy each death in a leisurely and pseudo-tactical way. Ash is probably the only true Warframe that can give you the feeling of "being a ninja" (in a game that pretends to be about ninjas and they are not).

The problem is that Warframe is NOT a tactical game, nor will it ever be. Warframe is a game of annihilating everything that moves in the shortest possible time and frames that do not fit the META for this purpose are simply not really useful, no matter how much someone insists that they love the N ability of their X frame. Ash is just a niche frame and now pretty useless.

1) the 1 of it is just useless. In the time it takes me to cast his Shuriken I have killed 40 enemies with my Ignis (put any weapon here). Augmenting him only makes him better situationally, but just as awkwardly.
2) the 2 of him is useful, but insufficient.
3) the 3 of him is garbage without increase. Great with augmentation, but paying the price of "losing" a mod slot.
4) His 4 is clumsy, inefficient, and only useful in solo play. If you play in a squad, in the same time it takes to mark 8 enemies, his squad will have already killed 200 (yes, also the ones you marked) while having a Martini.

As you know DE reworked it with the excuse that his 4 was too strong (for reasons already stated), but it's funny that other Warframes keep clearing entire rooms with their 4, and DE doesn't seem to care or see no problem with that. Why then did Ash's 4 need to be reduced to useless junk?

With him lacking, Ash was better before. It's a shame what they did to him.

[GREF_TM]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)INe Saninus said:

or any other combination of cheese to your liking

Wanting my second most played frame to get better = wanting to cheese? Aight, whatever.

[Zext]

I don't know what it is I'm doing differently, but I've never had trouble keeping up with other frames on Ash, in nearly every game mode. The primary exceptions have been sanctuary onslaught, and maybe some really low level spots that the majority of everything doesn't get a chance to play in because it is ridiculously weak.

I do like the OP's ideas for smoke screen. I would even make the smoke cloud bigger. Teleport could also use some functionality QoL/fixes and a means to bypass its awkward requirements even if it takes a little longer.

[Erridon]

Brutal to make this huge post and only get two likes. I think you have to take into consideration how many other frames basically have worthless abilities. Ash could use a little quality of life improvement like forcing fatal teleport to work and maybe some slight boost to the default shuriken throw, but his stealth is just a smoke thematic stealth due to his name and design. I don't think it needs to be all out crazy like you suggest.

Bladestorm on the other hand I do think needs a complete overhaul. No one wants to flail about like they're having a seizure to try and slay some fodder. They really should streamline its usage somehow. I understand the ability will probably have to remain basically the same as it is now due to some ash players enjoying the skill but i'd rather just summon some smoke clones that fought along side me.

My Bladestorm concept:

You summon three clones at max level Bladestorm where they could function like Loki's decoy. They can be fired at but take no damage. They would attack with a fatal teleport like ability, enhanced by power strength with a low cooldown maybe around 4 seconds. The duration they're out is based on your duration percent. Their fatal teleport range is also determined by your range percent. The range they can teleport being based on their location.

People have been making suggestions on Ash for half a decade now, ever since the terrible rework of his ultimate. It's an unfortunate reality that things will probably never change, but don't ever give up on your Ninja Way.

[Arcticblizzard]

Be warned, I do not play Ash much as he is not my flavor of play. I do spend a good deal of my time in Steel Path missions.

 

That being said, because of this thread, I decided to try him aswell as some other frames that are supposedly are weak or slow killers to see for my self how bad Ash is. On my savage silence build and arcane trickery equipped, he could maintain invisibility all the time and he was one shotting every Grineer in survival. He had no problems with kill rate. There are other frames who need a lot more attention than Ash. Not saying he is perfect, but not broken useless.

Equipment used on him for testing:

Cernos Prime with hunter munitions for clearing weak targets.

Skiajati for keeping invisibility going if arcane does not trigger.

As always, I am open (expecting a lot) to constructive criticism. Readers, please comment.

 

[Erridon]

5 hours ago, Arcticblizzard said:

Be warned, I do not play Ash much as he is not my flavor of play. I do spend a good deal of my time in Steel Path missions.

 

That being said, because of this thread, I decided to try him aswell as some other frames that are supposedly are weak or slow killers to see for my self how bad Ash is. On my savage silence build and arcane trickery equipped, he could maintain invisibility all the time and he was one shotting every Grineer in survival. He had no problems with kill rate. There are other frames who need a lot more attention than Ash. Not saying he is perfect, but not broken useless.

Equipment used on him for testing:

Cernos Prime with hunter munitions for clearing weak targets.

Skiajati for keeping invisibility going if arcane does not trigger.

As always, I am open (expecting a lot) to constructive criticism. Readers, please comment.

 

I'm pretty sure people mostly just want his fatal teleport ability to work consistently and to have his ultimate feel enjoyable to use. Of course he can do steel path. He's basically the golden standard for it. You have stealth which is basically all the freedom ever, coupled with boosted slash procs which chunks anything. There's a reason the dude said people enjoy him for steel path and basically only do missions solo on him. That wasn't his complaint. The constructive criticism toward you is that you missed the mark entirely. Mark for death harder my friend. Swoosh your mouse all around your screen like you're having a seizure and get those triple marks, then you'll have hit the mark.

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

I like 2 and 3 ideas but 4 I'm no so sure about.

I would say how about it starts once enemy is marked. Using the same mechanics it currently has.

So you can just let it do it's magic as it works.

But needing to mark and wait for the animations will keep it from being just like every other nuke. 

I honestly haven't had much of a problem with ash.  I think it's less about him needing a rework and more that there's two common playstyles in this game.

Basic straight forward. 

Ultra complicated set up.

Ash is somewhat in between but can use a very complicated set up so he gets more high level use. But new players have much more straight forward choices in a game of nearly 50 frames. 

I think if they made him easier to acquire his usage would shoot up. Many of this game's best frames are locked behind a punitive grind.  So unless convinced to purchase them by watching content creators.  Most players will never interact with them. 

[RobWasHere]

On 2022-06-07 at 9:01 AM, (PSN)Vexx757 said:

This shows the warframe abilities that are replaced the most. As you can see Ash`s 1st is within the top 10 which says a lot and his 4th is 22nd on this list, again it`s the marking mechanic that is the reason why it even on here.

It's because of the gimmick of Marked for Death with Fatal Teleport, very popular way to play Ash. Not really indication of bad ability, but between invisibility, single target damage ability or aoe damage ability you would do anyway with MfD, people rather choose Shuriken to be replaced.

And no, I dont like Bladestorm marking mechanic either. I'd rather see the aiming cone from Garuda for this ability. Something other than 'press 4 and go make a sandwitch' old Bladestorm either.

[DroopingPuppy]

At least current 4 is more suited for Loki or Ivara. Who expects Ash to be a sniper? Isn't Vectis Prime with his Prime variant already enough?

[NinjaZeku]

14 hours ago, Erridon said:

Swoosh your mouse all around your screen like you're having a seizure and get those triple marks

I understand you were making a joke here, but seeing how you brought this up twice, it seems you missed the buff to Ash where
the actual ability doesn't require this anymore, enemies become triple-marked with just moving the cursor over them once.

[Arcticblizzard]

3 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

I understand you were making a joke here, but seeing how you brought this up twice, it seems you missed the buff to Ash where
the actual ability doesn't require this anymore, enemies become triple-marked with just moving the cursor over them once.

Thank you. I did not want to reply to him directly on that one as that would look like a direct defensive reaction and an insult to a die hard Ash player who must not be using Ash much. Also, I would never have to mark 3 times even without the change as I did say it was one shotting (only one mark on eximus).I guess I am not the only one who missed the mark. 

16 hours ago, RobWasHere said:

And no, I dont like Bladestorm marking mechanic either. I'd rather see the aiming cone from Garuda for this ability. Something other than 'press 4 and go make a sandwitch' old Bladestorm either.

A quick tap should be a cone that mark all in line of site and a long press for manual targeting (like how it is now) would feel much better with how he plays. So yes, I like your suggestion for making it like Garuda's 4th.

As always, I look forward to constructive criticism and discussion. Readers, please do comment, even if Ash is not your main as this helps the community better understand all perspectives of this frame.