Take a hit DE

[slava.ukraine]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb CosoMalvadoNG:

Laetum in literally 30 seconds and the boss died... 

U can do like 200-400k  of damage for every shot with the normal form. 

and? what exactly is that supposed to show?

[Traumtulpe]

Honestly I feel like whenever something isn't received well (so... quite frequently) it's somebody elses fault.

For example nerfs - apparently the players irrationally dislike them, when they are in truth making the game better. No, DE, first of all your nerfs (for the most part) lack any semblance of balance, so they cannot make the game better - only hide problems. And second the issue is that your game demands a lot of time - players will OBVIOUSLY resent having their time investment invalidated. And don't even pretend nerfing a weapon by 50% doesn't invalidate the time spent on it - when the second best option is still at 99%.

Sometimes people cite a fear of backlash or even threats as something that holds innovation, and the game as a whole, back. This is nonsense, the backlash is caused by mistakes on your end - to fix this, you don't demand people stop complaining, you DO BETTER next time. And you disregard unhealthy individuals, which anybody in the world has to do.

I've heard you saying how brilliant your A.I. is, it's just the players fault for shutting it off. Weird how the game spawns an endless zombie horde for me then, almost literally under the sole of my warframes foot. Also turning the A.I. off is a reaction to unavoidable, untelegraphed, instant damage, from unpredictable directions, in quantities to instantly kill the player (you can still die instantly through shield gating, because of a bug that I've reported like a year or two ago).

You'll never fix any problem if you keep blaming your players for your mistakes.

[Pakaku]

Is DE making excuses, or are you claiming they are because you personally don't like the changes? You don't know DE, you don't work there, and you can't claim to know exactly what DE thinks or if they really are making excuses. (Which goes for me as well, of course)

[Traumtulpe]

3 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

Is DE making excuses, or are you claiming they are because you personally don't like the changes?

It's the former, thank you for participating in the discussion though. Here's your flower stamp.

[PollexMessier]

Yup. 100% agree. So much of the problems with this game exist because DE dont like to accept when they've made a mistake when they get backlash for it.

But when it's something the players enjoy. They have no problem saying they made an oopsie and then over-correcting in exactly the wrong direction.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Just now, PollexMessier said:

So much of the problems with this game exist because DE can't accept when they've made a mistake when they get backlash for it.

DE literally just reverted the nerf to battery weapons because of backlash they got leading to them believing they made a mistake. You can clearly communicate with these developers, but throwing a fit doesn't mean you hold the logical side of the disagreement.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

DE literally just reverted the nerf to battery weapons because of backlash they got leading to them believing they made a mistake. You can clearly communicate with these developers

To be perfectly fair here, the changes to battery weapons were just absurd. They got it so wrong, it's hard to believe anybody playtested the changes at all. I don't think even a single person defended them, and there's some really shiny white knights around.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

Just now, Traumtulpe said:

To be perfectly fair here, the changes to battery weapons were just absurd. They got it so wrong, it's hard to believe anybody playtested the changes at all. I don't think even a single person defended them, and there's some really shiny white knights around.

Exactly. The battery changes were absurd, whereas the AoE nerfs were not. Therefore, the AoE nerfs are here to stay.

[Traumtulpe]

Just now, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

[...]

This discussion does not contain any demands to revert the AoE nerfs (I don't even think I mentioned them specifically). Please try to stay on topic.

[PollexMessier]

24 minutes ago, (XBOX)Ampathetiic said:

DE literally just reverted the nerf to battery weapons because of backlash they got leading to them believing they made a mistake.

Right. You're right. They do sometimes when it's REALLY bad. like objectively destroying an entire subcategory of weapons that did nothing wrong.

I'm not saying AoE didn't need a nerf tho. Ammo is just the single most anti-fun way they could've possibly gone about it. I wanted self damage back. They never should have removed it in the first place. It just needed a proper fix instead of a lazy bandaid mod. A lot of bad changes have been made to the game to combat an issue DE created instead of just undoing the problem they made.

And this is not a problem exclusive to AoE. DE does exactly the same thing with other issues.

It feels like they waste an extreme amount of development time putting hundreds of small patches over holes they made when all they need to do to correct the problem is put the thing they moved back where it was and try something different to fix the problem they were initially trying to.

[Genitive]

Ok, let's see.

22 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, DE, first of all your nerfs (for the most part) lack any semblance of balance, so they cannot make the game better - only hide problems.

I'd like to know how the nerfs are unbalacned or what problems they hide. 

If anything, the biggest issue with DE is lack of foresight. For example, removal of self damage led us to the AOE meta, and now it has been nerfed. It's been several times when they introduced something and it turned out it was busted. Maming strike, original Naramon, you name it. Nerfs are the result of of not planning ahead well enough. But who knows, with the new leadership it might change.

28 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

to fix this, you don't demand people stop complaining, you DO BETTER next time.

I don't recall the devs ever demand we stopped complaining. But feel free to prove me wrong. And do better how? No nerfs, only buffs? No matter what they do, someone will be angry. 

When they revert a nerf is it not doing better? Or when they scrap a bad idea based on feedback (such as Echoes of Umbra)? "Do better" is just an empty phrase.

29 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

I've heard you saying how brilliant your A.I. is, it's just the players fault for shutting it off.

That's not what they said. It was Pablo who said (when asked) that there is no point in programming more advanced AI because players can turn it off with abilities. That's not the same. We all know the AI is not brilliant.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

6 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

This discussion does not contain any demands to revert the AoE nerfs (I don't even think I mentioned them specifically). Please try to stay on topic.

41 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

No, DE, first of all your nerfs (for the most part) lack any semblance of balance, so they cannot make the game better - only hide problems.

Refuting the point that nerfs lack balance is perfectly on-topic. However, if you want something more general to your OP, I'm just gonna echo what @Pakaku said, because you're just inventing some weird narrative that DE is defensive and making excuses about their horrendously irrational nerfs, when that narrative is just unfounded.

However, knowing your topic history, we all know where this thread is going :/

[Minion135]

They explained, in no uncertain terms, why they made the Wukong and AOE changes. The Wukong changes were to stop afk play (something they have ALWAYS been against and made changes to prevent), and the AOE changes were to basically prevent the same since you could effectively stay in one spot and blow entire rooms of enemies up without doing anything. AFK play has never been something they want for this game. It's why even Ash had his Blade Storm change forever ago, and so many other things before and since.

[-AncientWarrior-]

36 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Honestly I feel like whenever something isn't received well (so... quite frequently) it's somebody elses fault.

For example nerfs - apparently the players irrationally dislike them, when they are in truth making the game better. No, DE, first of all your nerfs (for the most part) lack any semblance of balance, so they cannot make the game better - only hide problems. And second the issue is that your game demands a lot of time - players will OBVIOUSLY resent having their time investment invalidated. And don't even pretend nerfing a weapon by 50% doesn't invalidate the time spent on it - when the second best option is still at 99%.

Sometimes people cite a fear of backlash or even threats as something that holds innovation, and the game as a whole, back. This is nonsense, the backlash is caused by mistakes on your end - to fix this, you don't demand people stop complaining, you DO BETTER next time. And you disregard unhealthy individuals, which anybody in the world has to do.

I've heard you saying how brilliant your A.I. is, it's just the players fault for shutting it off. Weird how the game spawns an endless zombie horde for me then, almost literally under the sole of my warframes foot. Also turning the A.I. off is a reaction to unavoidable, untelegraphed, instant damage, from unpredictable directions, in quantities to instantly kill the player (you can still die instantly through shield gating, because of a bug that I've reported like a year or two ago).

You'll never fix any problem if you keep blaming your players for your mistakes.

Well said, and its true, DE do not fix bugs, I have pointed this out for years, an example is the massive amount of open world bugs which are still there.. DE just dont seem to have the ability to fix the bandaids they have implemented over the years instead of doing appropriate repairs.. its like everything in the game, DE moves around the issues rather than face them and fix them.. and nerfs to things really just mean poor game testing prior to releases, which is strange as we players pick up things just about instantly when buggy weapons or things are released.. game testing at level 30 for a hour doesnt really test anything tbh.. and then look at the events that could have been great, but DE virtually removed them because they find it too hard or dont want to allocate dedicated persons to do repairs to get things in order.. Codex is another example, but there is so many issues that we players work around, like the current oneshot issues.. it seems we notice issues that really should never make a release and DE doesnt.. hmmm

[Traumtulpe]

You seem to be missing the point still. My weapons have not been nerfed, I don't play Wukong. Stop making this about you or me - this is about DE making excuses, and how it would serve them better if they didn't.

[YUNoJump]

57 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Honestly I feel like whenever something isn't received well (so... quite frequently) it's somebody elses fault.

For example nerfs - apparently the players irrationally dislike them, when they are in truth making the game better.

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

You'll never fix any problem if you keep blaming your players for your mistakes.

Have they said or done this? The patch notes gave clear explanations for the changes, and they never blame players, the closest they get is "problems arise when players feel 'forced' to use specific choices", which isn't blaming the players, it's blaming the game for promoting a bad mindset. Can you give me an example of someone from DE saying "players who don't like these nerfs are being irrational?"

The latest changes have had some of the most in-depth explanations DE has ever done, I don't really get how you could say "DE is blaming players" when they specifically lay out their intentions and even offer video evidence in a Devstream.

[Uhkretor]

You could show the participants proof of those alleged excuses. Throwing clay to the ceiling and hoping that it'll stick isn't exactly going to work well.

Until you present that proof, people are just going to touch other subjects in your thread. I expected you to know better than that considering on how adamant you're being towards other participants and their alleged off-topic remarks.

[LuckyCharm]

To be fair to the op here literally every time theres nerfs to this game DE has done the old two steps forward and one step back. Like the massive nerf to atomos a while back, removing chaining length affected by range and chaining to 5 enemies instead of 3. They walked it back by giving it slightly more range but kept the nerfs. Still feels bad. 

Universal vaccuum was another thing players were asking for for years now. We finally got it. For 3m around the player and mods for pets. 

Nerf to itzal is another example, taking away its blink and adding that ripline which is a weird choice for a stealth archwing  giving all the other archwings blink and then nerfing it with a big cooldown. But hey "you asked for it guys so we did it!" 

Many many other examples of that happening where players will ask for a fix, or change, and de will nerf something and turn it into a mod or change it for the better but add a cooldown or cost to it that makes it worse than what we had

[YouDontCB_87]

7 hours ago, Zimzala said:

To try and influence the players with Steam numbers is silly.

If my words here can open the eyes of even one player to the fact that this is just a video game, and all this emotional angst and useless drama over the player numbers and rankings on Steam have no meaning in ones life, then sure, it may be silly of me to try, but I will anyway, have for a couple decades now, after watching a friend lose everything over getting to emotionally wrapped up in such things.

Nice new labeling, so it's now "To try and influence the players with Steam numbers is silly." Paradox +1

Maybe you should tag the one who started with steam number, I bet you miss the whole conversation on where it started.

7 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I will happily spar with anyone that thinks these numbers have any real value, beyond being fodder for gaming lemmings that think if there are fewer people playing a game than another game, that it 'means' something beyond the mood of humans that day. The extroverts that can only be caught playing the most 'popular' games are their own worst enemy already.

So, if you want to spend your emotional energy worrying over things you cannot control that you have no responsibility to alter, you go right ahead, it's your life, you should not pay me any attention, I am just another random gamer, bored on a Sunday while drinking my coffee, what do I know anyway, right?

Quote: "you should not pay me any attention". Erm... but you replied me twice... Paradox +2

Well... I am just another random gamer, just woke up got on my tea to start a new morning, what do I know anyway, right?

7 hours ago, Zimzala said:

I am sorry, however, that you cannot just relax and enjoy games, over trying to act as if you have to worry about them and proselytize to the players to share in that worry.

Sorry if I make you felt sorry and think that I'm not enjoying the game, the reason I'm here voicing out for other is because relax and enjoy the game too much, and I want more players to enjoy it, especially in this update, cause those who voiced out apparently not.

It's fine if you're just here to boost your ego, I'm here to boost the others. You don't have to be acting nice if you're not, at least you can be consistent that way.

[ShogunGunshow]

DE used to communicate more directly with the playerbase but with how toxic it's become and the above post it's not at all a surprise why it doesn't do that as much anymore.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Can someone post the Picard and Another one gif?

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

You seem to be missing the point still. My weapons have not been nerfed, I don't play Wukong. Stop making this about you or me - this is about DE making excuses, and how it would serve them better if they didn't.

You seem to be also missing the point. A private business reserves the right to do whatever they want with their property. When you buy the rights and company from DE then come back.

[Kaggelos]

1 minute ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Picard

That's Uhkretor's specialty! 

[YouDontCB_87]

5 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

The issue with your chart is exactly that:

It shows player count dropping yearly since way before the ammo economy changes from Veilbreaker, because of that, said yearly player count drop can't be justified by the ammo economy changes as some other players are trying to imply, even more if we keep in mind that Veilbreaker was recently released in a year that's about to end, so no meaningful data is possible to have been obtained yet.

You got me switching topic on the original guy's reply, that's a good one, but you quoted me over the discussion when I'm further talking about yearly dropping issue. You missed the strike.

Debate aside, I do aware that "gains and loses during updates while players comes back and go" that's the fact I've already acknowledge, in case you missed out my argument that just few posts/replies below the one you quoted me. 

8 hours ago, YouDontCB_87 said:

I suppose the abnormalities in WF you refers to is gains and loses during updates while players comes back and go, we all know about this. Yet this is a short time specific over each and every updates. I'm talking about average player count drop by years, not drop by just update itself. What I wanna warn/remind was to pay attention to the numbers that drop over years, who cares about player gains and loses each updates when it's a proven fact. Who's the one oversimplifying now?

In my reply to you over that part you underlined on you words, your argument literally just says that "the Update is just out, I don't see dropping in number, so it's fine".

So let's just pretend everything is fine, and don't even bother about negative review on steam because it means nothing, despite the fact that it's dropping down to 23% positive now, for the first time in 9-10 years, cause who cares about them.

 

5 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

Your data only shows that warframe activity on steam peaked during 2018 and that's it.

"Tell me you don't know about data without telling me you don't know about data"

Yet you agreed that  "It shows player count dropping yearly", I get that you all trying to voice out cause I'm a bit 'cocky' here, I don't mind if you guys wanna have/win conversation, but at least be consistent with your words.

"Please be consistent, please be consistent, please be consistent."

*It's so important I have to repeatedly mention it 3 times, if anyone being inconsistent again when quoting me out, then I'm gonna start quoting myself with this.

[trst]

Yes it is all entirely DE's fault since they're the ones that let it get this bad. However if they're at fault of anything else here it'd be not going far enough with the AOE nerfs. But players are also at fault for clutching onto their crutches so tightly that they managed to forget how to crawl.

Players are being irrational about the changes, because they didn't actually change anything. It takes such a trivial amount of effort to work with/around the changes and return to the exact amount of braindead AOE spam or even to the same amount of automation they referenced. Even Wukong is still afk viable, the only change there is that he now takes the same absolute minimum amount of effort as other AFK frames do.

Even the non-AOE weapons players claim were unfairly nerfed due to ammo changes aren't actually any worse off. At best they were buffed due to the headshot changes, at worst they're exactly as bad as they were previously. And anything that "required" the max ammo on Merciless was already an absolute dumpster fire and yet would now perform better running Deadhead which directly improves their ammo economy.

As well absolutely nothing was invalidated with the changes. The only thing that was invalidated was players who refuse to put in the absolute minimum.