Incarnon Choices / Do Not Pick Soma This Week

[(NSW)warfare3376]

2 minutes ago, schilds said:

Lol, it's quite obvious you're going off the popularly held vibe about the Soma incarnon, and not anything concrete.

Again, its its the only incarnon to lose stats in its incarnon form, theres a reason people about it. Soma has the lowest crit chance so far out of all the incarnons, yes even the dual toxocyst, and its the fricking soma you know the gun known for its crits, how can that possibly be. And on top of it all you yourself claim that its incarnon form is just the same as in the normal form and at that point what even is the reason for the incarnon to exist, you say its the same stat wise just divided amongst 8 pellets rather than just one but the thing about that is the stats are lowered to compensate for it meaning that multiple dice rolls have to be made just to have it preform the same as before meaning its way less consistent.

Its clear your just overhyping it because people arent allowed to complain about it. Like saying its damage output is comparable to that of phenmor (you know the weapon with a basically free +2000% multiplicative buff) is one heck of an exaggeration.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, schilds said:

I have both done the math, and tested it. You're right that it's not the same. It works out with higher dps (or lower ttk).

56 minutes ago, schilds said:

The Soma takes longer to ramp up but has comparable single target damage output to the Phenmor.

Can you show your math or a demo?  From previous experience with you I'm inclined to take your word for it.  But since you've already done the work, putting what you've got out there seems like it'll make for a better conversation in this thread. 

Plus I'm a little leery of words like "comparable". :P 

[schilds]

26 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Again, its its the only incarnon to lose stats in its incarnon form, theres a reason people about it. Soma has the lowest crit chance so far out of all the incarnons, yes even the dual toxocyst, and its the fricking soma you know the gun known for its crits, how can that possibly be. And on top of it all you yourself claim that its incarnon form is just the same as in the normal form and at that point what even is the reason for the incarnon to exist, you say its the same stat wise just divided amongst 8 pellets rather than just one but the thing about that is the stats are lowered to compensate for it meaning that multiple dice rolls have to be made just to have it preform the same as before meaning its way less consistent.

Its clear your just overhyping it because people arent allowed to complain about it. Like saying its damage output is comparable to that of phenmor (you know the weapon with a basically free +2000% multiplicative buff) is one heck of an exaggeration.

I'm not overhyping it (and who said you aren't allowed to complain?). I'm not saying it's OP or DA BEST EVA. The point is I've actually done the math (and tested both together). You obviously haven't. All you have are hand-waving arguments about how low you think some stats look and how it doesn't hold up to the Soma's crit reputation.

Firstly, they both have roughly the same damage, modded, after multishot, elements, etc but before crit and fire rate. Go try out some mod configs yourself. The main issue the Phenmor runs into is that while it doesn't have to mod for crit, it ends up modding on some minor additions to some other stat it already has. All else being equal:

1) The Phenmor's multiplicative buff is on average 11x. (+2000% half the time). The Phenmor also has about 1.9x the fire rate. That's an effective multiplier of 20.94.

2) The Soma's crit (with PS and VS) of 25% chance for 7.8x dmg per bullet with 8 bullets is enough to put it at, guess what, an effective multiplier of 20.96. It also has a minor +12 dmg as its last evo. Pretty sure that isn't per bullet* so I'm ignoring it. As it turns out, the earlier evo does appear to be per bullet. So that's an extra 40% dmg when the last evo is ramped up.

See, they're comparable. Even if we include ... I don't know, an extra status effect (fire?) or a faction mod or something, they're still within close range of each other.

_{*Actually, going to check cavalero for the earlier +12 evo, brb}

Edited May 22, 2023 by schilds

[(NSW)warfare3376]

10 minutes ago, schilds said:

I'm not overhyping it (and who said you aren't allowed to complain?). I'm not saying it's OP or DA BEST EVA. The point is I've actually done the math. You obviously haven't. All you have are hand-waving arguments about how low you think some stats look and how it doesn't hold up to the Soma's crit reputation.

Firstly, they both have roughly the same damage, modded, after multishot, elements, etc but before crit and fire rate. Go try out some mod configs yourself. The main issue the Phenmor runs into is that while it doesn't have to mod for crit, it ends up modding on some minor additions to some other stat it already has. All else being equal:

1) The Phenmor's multiplicative buff is on average 11x. (+2000% half the time). The Phenmor also has about 1.9x the fire rate. That's an effective multiplier of 20.94.

2) The Soma's crit (with PS and VS) of 25% chance for 7.8x dmg per bullet with 8 bullets is enough to put it at, guess what, an effective multiplier of 20.96. It also has a minor +12 dmg as its last evo. Pretty sure that isn't per bullet* so I'm ignoring it.

See, they're comparable. Even if we include ... I don't know, an extra status effect (fire?) or a faction mod or something, they're still within close range of each other.

_{*Actually, going to check cavalero for the earlier +12 evo, brb}

 

[schilds]

Oh boy, some random youtuber who doesn't know how to mod is hardly good support for your argument. 

[edit]

I've made a video, will upload it soon. Don't go away :-P. (half an hour to process, youtube tells me)

Edited May 22, 2023 by schilds

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, Halo said:

Before you get up in arms about saying "The Soma got an incarnon, shut up" type of deal, listen and look at videos posted online. 

The Burston, for better or worse, got the better incarnon upgrade for the week overall. It feels like just a better rifle than the Soma. 

Soma turns into an auto shotgun which takes on the SC mechanic like newer shotties with pellets work: SC per pellet, and it's extremely low. 

Not to mention the Soma's Incarnon form has piss poor SC and CC to boot, meanwhile it's normal fire has high CC and just everything else. 

Burston goes completely bonkers with the functionality of a Laetum with each hit on impact exploding, and is just a rapid fire better Soma. 

Lets not forget some of the incarnon upgrades, for weeks, have not worked at all, same goes with "Overshield on Bleed" evo currently not working on the Soma...

If you're picking a weapon this week, please pick the Burston and then anything you see fit. 

The Ack & Brunt turns into an great S&S with the ability to become a 'tenet melee' where if you holster it, the combo stays, as well as other wonderful utility options in its incarnon evo's. 

The Vasto turns into a 6-round burst shotgun in a revolver (I picked it this week, so I'm happy with it)

The Nami Solo, which is a machete and not a sword, turns into a combo machine, best with a combo build and not heavy in all honesty.

Soma turns into an auto-shotgun that takes on the new pellet mechanic, so with that sweet 24% SC evo IV bonus... it goes to a 3% SC per pellet and not something akin to the Strun's Incarnon. Raw damage building for it seems like a good thing, but eh, it doesn't crit like it's normal form (I sadly picked this thing thinking it'd be fun, but underwhelmed at it). 

Burston goes into overdrive, and I mean OVERDRIVE. 600 rounds of a full-auto machine gun that acts like the braton where on impact the shots explode, Galvanized Aptitude works on it, and it's just insane overall. Build crit, Viral, Hun Mun, or just a simple Viral / Heat build, and have your fun. 

To those who picked the Soma, I am sorry. 

I hate that these videos exist honestly. Focusing on just the Incarnon form dismisses the other benefit options. I mean, what if the Incarnon options boost the soma to the version soma lovers always wanted? Without trying it (because of your post) players may miss out on the perfect machine gun setup, especially if the mods for it further benefits it.

I think the reviews overall do a great job of limiting the experience of the game, pushing players away from the option filled experience of Warframe and, instead, into a linear direction and a linear mindset. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

meh, I'm not fussed, even if it was TOTAL garbage, I'm planning on going through all the weapons anyway, so at the very least, I'm getting a "bad" Incarnon out of the way. plus these weapons have only just been released: sometime after next week, all Incarnon Genesis adapters will be in the game, and DE will likely collect data on the usage stats of each one, which can be the prelude to a buff/nerf for each Incarnon mode that DE sees fit to change.

the Incarnon modes we have now may not be the same ones we have in the next update, when they will likely be changed.

[Zekkii]

12 minutes ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

<video>

It's going to outperform the Incarnon form when you stack half your mods and your upgrades into critical.  There's more build options besides just crit.  For example adding Vile Acceleration increases the fire rate from 80% to 170% on that build, which is more than double the DPS and status procs.  Faction damage is also great, base damage can help with the ramp up, 60/60 mods can improve status.  If you're rolling a riven you can go for multi-shot, elemental damage, fire rate, punch through, and so forth.  You might also want to give Corrosive a shot instead of Viral.

 

[schilds]

Ok here we go:

Spoiler

 

What's of interest are the majority of the numbers. Soma's between 3k and 6k. Phenmor's between 12k and 30k. So Phenmor has roughly 4x to 5x more damage per bullet (depending on how many status procs stack up) and the Soma has 4x the bullets (8x multishot, half fire rate). I think (with these configs at least) Phenmor wins out slightly due to higher status chance stacking up status faster, and having corrosive + heat compared to the Soma's corrosive only.

I don't know about you, but I'd still say they're comparable :-P. No doubt someone will tell me I don't know how to mod either ;-).

Slash builds (for both) may be more efficient if you can resist the urge to hold down the trigger until their health runs out :-P.

[edit] oops, forgot to account above for how many bullets I used. Phenmor went through the last 16 grineer in ~229 bullets from the magazine, Soma went through the same number in 155 bullets from the magazine. What does that mean? I dunno, I've been up all night and I'm going to bed :-P.

Edited May 22, 2023 by schilds

[(NSW)warfare3376]

1 hour ago, schilds said:

Oh boy, some random youtuber who doesn't know how to mod is hardly good support for your argument. 

[edit]

I've made a video, will upload it soon. Don't go away :-P. (half an hour to process, youtube tells me)

Alright find one that says the opposite then, even LazerGamingViews says the non incarnon form is better to use in the current state. The incarnon form is just not worth it over just leaving it in the normal state which kinda defeats the point of the incarnon , its just felarx 2.0. And the thing with felarx is that its incarnon got buffed because of how underwhelming it was so why not soma?

And for the record Im not the incarnon form is weak, what Im saying is is its weak compared to its normal state and to the other incarnons. Even compared to boltor prime from last week its basically the same thing but weaker and a lot of people already didnt like boltors incarnon so you can only imagine the disappointment when soma when somas is the same thing but worse.

1 hour ago, schilds said:

I don't know about you, but I'd still say they're comparable :-P. No doubt someone will tell me I don't know how to mod either ;-).

We can go on and on back and forwards about how to mod the thing and no one will be happy. That said you used raw corrosive for you demo which not that theres anything wrong with that infact is probably ideal for normal everyday content, however there is a reason raw damage and corrosive has fallen out of the meta as it just does not scale very well in long endurance. Not that every build be built around level cap content but that said the scalability should at least be a factor to a certian degree.

As for the soma itself its whole identity was that its a very low base damage weapon with a ton of crit so builds would revolve around that entirely. But now with the incarnon its all of a sudden flipped, low crit with very high base damage, now the ideal builds for each form fight each other instead of work in unison with each other unlike all the other incarnons (except for maybe the gun co mods on the AoE ones). Thats the problem, thats why people are disappointed by it. That and soma is currently the only incarnon to lose stats upon activating incarnon, that in itself is enough to leave a bad taste. Like I said all the needed to do was leave the cc the same for both and this wouldve not been an issue, doesnt need any other fancy gimmick just the same cc.

Edited May 22, 2023 by (NSW)warfare3376

[EmailSoup]

They should just put the lex arca plasmor shot on all the incarnons, just disregard what the original weapon was and have no resemblance to the normal gun. Then all the incarnons would be really strong AOE weapons and people would love them

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Oh boy, seems I picked the two best ones this week, Vasto and Burston. 

I've gotten Vasto, and the Incarnon is a delete button, for when I really want something to go away. 6 multishot, 6 round burst, 24 rounds max so only 4 triggerpulls before empty but it slays. Recoil is ridiculous tho, mods are necessary. 

[--END--Rikutatis]

9 hours ago, Halo said:

The Ack & Brunt turns into an great S&S with the ability to become a 'tenet melee' where if you holster it, the combo stays, as well as other wonderful utility options in its incarnon evo's. 

I didn't make my picks this week yet, been a busy day. Trying to decide if I go for the ack & brunt or soma. I already have a Soma all built and forma'ed, and I have a feeling DE might buff it later, but man, people have been really disappointed with it lol. Ack and brunt looks sweet, and I love the combo save holster perk, but I'd have to forma it from scratch.

[schilds]

2 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Alright find one that says the opposite then, even LazerGamingViews says the non incarnon form is better to use in the current state. The incarnon form is just not worth it over just leaving it in the normal state which kinda defeats the point of the incarnon

Oof. sorry, this is just plain wrong. Couldn't care less who LazerGamingViews is or what they say. Putting aside the comparison with the Phenmor, it's even easier to compare Soma regular and incarnon modes. I won't post the video unless someone insists, but here are the results of my test:

 

4 enemies (Exo Gokstad Officers).

Regular mode consumes ~120 shots from the magazine. Incarnon mode consumes ~30 shots from the magazine.

So the Incarnon mode is significantly more ammo efficient. How about ttk though?

Regular mode has a (modded) fire rate of 36.75. That ~120 ammo took ~3.3 seconds to unload.

Incarnon mode has a fire rate of 17.15. That ~30 ammo took ~1.75 seconds to unload.

Almost half the time. This does not include time to aim or anything like that. Incarnon mode is unambiguously better.

 

Just to compare this with a viral + slash Phenmor (no faction mod). ~50 shots with a fire rate of 32.67 gives ~1.53 seconds. Ammo efficiency is slightly worse but it doesn't matter because the Phenmor incarnon has a bigger mag. So Phenmor wins, about 14% more effective. A faction mod should (I think) wipe about 1/3 off that time.

I won't compare it with a corrosive + heat Phenmor because conventional wisdom tells us viral + slash is better. Haha. Actually corrosive + heat does better against lvl 195 gokstad officers, but let's pretend I didn't let that slip, besides, waddabout level cap amirite.

How about Soma incarnon with with Arcane Avenger (because it's a fairly significant benefit to crit weapons that the Phenmor can't access, and due to multishot it disproportionately benefits Soma incarnon over regular): ~20 shots with a fire rate of 17.15 gives ~1.17 seconds. To be fair, the Phenmor should get a run with a frame arcane too, but what other arcane is even close in effect? The others are all minor additions to existing stats (damage, fire rate, etc). Soma regular took ~90 shots (better than before but still not great).

Lastly, I can get viral on my pet. So now I have corrosive + viral. You could replace viral on your viral + slash Phenmor but what other stat can you boost that isn't already additive or otherwise minor in effect? That's the disadvantage of throwing away 2 whole stats. You run out of things that can multiply, earlier. On the other hand, a slash Soma does benefit. It has to mod for crit so is in desperate need of extra mod slots for elemental status effects.

 

Again, obviously there are *other* aoe incarnon weapons which will outdo both the Soma and the Phenmor. This is just to point out that the Soma Incarnon is comparable with the Phenmor, and that it's incarnon mode is better than its normal mode despite what people claim. Those claims derive from knee-jerk reactions to the stats, not bothering to do any math, and flawed modding/testing.

Edited May 23, 2023 by schilds

[Skoomaseller]

the soma Incarnon is strong but it is bloody disappointing.

I'm not asking for it to be as crazy as miter/strun/latron/lex incarnon but... having the incarnon be... soma 2: now with less crit!

Seriously? Come on.

I mean surely you guys over at canada have better ideas than this right? compared to the others the incarnon buff feels very marginal.

and the evos themselves feel underwhelming & disappointing. innate punch through, the thing LMG type guns desperately need... but only if you have enough armor for it! 

Like... come on DE.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Skoomaseller

[trst]

So I got my hands on it earlier to see what the fuss is about and I have no idea if the people complaining actually got and used it themselves.

From the complaints I was expecting it to turn into the Kohm with a bunch of multishot, spread, and awful damage. Instead I got the Soma with a bit less fire rate and a LOT more damage. It's not leveling entire rooms and I'm glad for that as having every Incarnon just slap some AOE gimmick onto the gun has long gotten incredibly boring.

 

All in all I give it an 8/10. It makes the Soma viable anywhere but in the end you're still just using a Soma and we're not exactly short on generic automatic rifles. I'd have found it a bit more interesting if it actually had some spread and performed like a shotgun instead. But still gets points for not turning into another automatic grenade launcher.

[GPrime96]

9 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Thats not even remotely true

I’m with you on this one. That would be a very bad Phenmor

[Traumtulpe]

8 hours ago, (NSW)warfare3376 said:

Again, its its the only incarnon to lose stats in its incarnon form

Again, this is not true. The Bronco loses 33% base damage and 30% fire rate (but does get some crit and status, to be fair). Yes you read that right, the Bronco incarnon has less dps than the basic shot by default.

[Slayer-.]

Where can you see what the guns turn it?

I looked up the incarnon stuff on the wiki but couldn't see what they become.

I took Soma because I use it and I took Vasto.

Edited May 23, 2023 by Slayer-.

[GPrime96]

1 minute ago, Slayer-. said:

Where can you see what the guns turn it?

I took Soma because I use it and I took Vasto.

Only after you grind it out, which lead to disappointments from us

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Contentious subject eh? Also I think I get OP's framing, if you are disappointed with something, you can want others to avoid that too, out of empathy or sympathy, but yeah, sometimes you want to be considerate with phrasing, since not everyones expectations or disappointment/satisfaction will be the same, so phrasing can draw unintended authoritarian vibes. 

So I plan on getting all Incarnon weapons, I am already satisfied with the idea and concept already, and I already have a few I consider very powerful/over tuned. I also don't only play just for the meta or power of a weapon, so most of my first picks tend to be based on curiosity. Like I expected the Burston to be good, because it sounds similar to what they did with Braton, I waited last week to hear about the Miter and Torid, and decided to go with the Torid despite liking the Miter more, because Torid sounded more unique. Basically I already knew I was going to get the Soma Incarnon regardless of anything else. 

Personally, I usually go off feel of weapons, before I start experimenting and introducing maths, and trying to minmax. In this regard, I totally understand why many people are disappointed, underwhelmed and frustrated. I felt that as well, weapon just felt off and the evolution paths didn't really seem to help either.  Thing is, I felt the same way about the Atomos Incarnon, and also noticed that a few others felt that way too. However, the Atomos Incarnon has grown on me a lot, and its now one of my favourite Incarnon weapons. I also think the Atomos Incarnon is just really effective/powerful. With the Resource Booster weekend, I was taking into a lot of endurance Steel Path missions, whilst testing out other Primary weapons/melee, and the Incarnon Atomos was very effective against all factions, even a few hours in, and the Incarnon form could still make quick work of Acolytes. Basically, I know that my initial impressions/gut reaction may not always be accurate, and sometimes you have to try and switch up the builds/mods etc or sometimes the weapon has a sort of theme or idea behind it.

For example? Some Incarnon weapons, seem designed where you would constantly switch between the forms, some seem weighed towards one form more than the other, some seem to have forms that serve different functions, like single target vs groups of enemies, and other various combinations between those elements or variables. Also can get a bit tricky, because some forms are different enough, where you have to consider which you want to build for too. 

At this moment, I am still in the testing and experimenting phase. I am still a bit underwhelmed and disappointed, but admit that was because I built expectations for the weapon. I also have no issue in admitting that I would personally want the Soma Incarnon to be, or at least feel, as powerful as the Miter Incarnon, and the Latron Incarnon, and the Burston Incarnon (which may be difficult, given those are more AOE orientated). I want to emphasis on the feel part, because I also remember being underwhelmed by the Felarx, until I started to build it for one form, and how Galvanised Savvy works with it. Maybe secretly the Soma Incarnon is busted, and some video in 2 days will come out and change everyones mind on it, because of some secret interaction or hidden stat.

Right now, I do consider the weapon "powerful". With a Galvanised scope, Deadhead, and Arcane Avenger build, I took into Steel Path Kuva Survival, both modes were great. I was mostly building to try make the Incarnon form feel better and more effective, since A. Already used the regular Soma mode a lot, the Incarnon form also has a bigger amount of charge than most other weapons. I think its intended to be used as much of not more than the regular form, in contrast to Felarx and Atomos, where I think the normal mode has more usage and effectiveness for most Warframe enemies you usually run into more frequently. So like obviously the normal Soma form, doesn't need all that extra Crit Chance help, but the Incarnon form's Crit (chance) and Status... however... the multishot and the damage (and Crit Damage)...as well as the magazine/charge... So I tried my best to increase Crit Chance to a lot. I think it did... fine. Like it was adequate, I didn't struggle for life support, I was playing solo. It did feel a bit slow on some enemies, that I knew if I was using other Incarnons, would mean they would be dead... Though, the charge also lasted a lot longer than I anticipated as well. Also, it did decently against the Acolyte too, probably since status doesn't matter as much and the other stats being good for Acolyte. 

Two other observations I made. When my Smeeta Crit buff activated? The weapon felt incredible, and like a dream. I mean... you know, a lot of weapons do obviously, when they get red crit numbers, I am always willing to admit, that I will personally take a small DPS loss, if those numbers are white, as a sacrifice for more orange and red crits. Regardless, the way this weapon is, all that Crit Chance, made the weapon feel amazing and seem way way more effective and on par with some of the other Incarnon weapons (the more powerful ones), potentially more powerful, but I am not good enough with Warframe maths to say, and Smeeta Crit buff is hard variable to control for testing. Made me wonder if combined with the larger charge/magazine of the Incarnon for, if the Hata-Satya was intended to be used with this weapon, since it would probably work really well given its stats. 

I am also yet to try with any fire rate buffs, which looking at some of the comments in this thread, could be a good call. I usually like using Primed Shred, but with one of the Evolutions being punch through, I actually removed Primed Shred, maybe that was a mistake. 

Personally, I do think I would enjoy the Soma Incarnon a lot more, if the Crit Chance and status were higher in the Incarnon form, either by its stats, or via the evolution options. Even if it took a small hit elsewhere. Basically anything that should bring it up to par to the other Incarnon weapons. Not that I need all weapons, to be as powerful as them, but I think you can make arguments on the nostalgia, legacy, and historic importance. This is DE after all, the Zariman is a dark Sector reference. The whole incarnon system basically seems like a love letter to a lot of weapons that used to be the meta or really popular/strong in the past. 

That being said, I don't feel as negatively about all this as some others. I think its strong, I can see myself using it. Will probably be crazy strong on Harrow or Citrine... I still want to test it on some Kuva Liches, Archons etc I wouldn't be opposed to buffs either, if DE decided to make adjustments. Maybe I just need to test it more or look for advice on builds from others. Could always be an issue with my modding (my biggest issue so far is trying to find a build that works well for both forms). 

 

 

[Slayer-.]

30 minutes ago, GPrime96 said:

Only after you grind it out, which lead to disappointments from us

Oh well thanks, I've already got the Soma one, just gotta get more Clamps.

Pro tip: take your time to go into Duviri until others have them and look on YouTube. 

[CoffeeElemental]

11 часов назад, Halo сказал:

Bear in mind that conditional is nye impossible to use unless you use frames with Umbral Fiber / any sort of high armor rating. 

I can say the same about a lot of perks that require you to have channeled abilities active. It's like the game demands that I run Gloom on everything.

[TheSteelMushroom]

2 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

Where can you see what the guns turn it?

I looked up the incarnon stuff on the wiki but couldn't see what they become.

I took Soma because I use it and I took Vasto.

There a small tab under the Soma Prime page that shows the stats for the Incarnon form.

[TheSteelMushroom]

So, I'm gonna throw my input in here. Do I think it's bad? Well no but is it a huge improvement? Not really and I think it's decent to good. I saw this information weeks before under the Soma Prime page before getting it. The Incarnon Form in terms of its base damage output is an improvement since each shot does goes from 12 to 18 and it becomes a 8 multi-shot shotgun so 12 times higher burst damage but the fire rates is half so that is only a 6 times better DPS plus the form drains pretty slowly while being easy to fill.

Though yeah there is the massive crit trade-off which is strange considering the 0.4% higher crit multiplier with the incarnon form and the zeroed in upgrade but I hoped the Hata-Satya would of off-set it. Though you can't use it which makes no sense since most incarnon forms can use their weapons specific augment which could be a bug since certain other incarnon forms can't even use specific upgrades in their tree. Plus the evolution 4 choices are pretty underwhelming.

I'm sure if you build for damage and elemental over crit then the incarnon form could be more effective then the base. Though I do still hope that they will allow the Hata-Satya, improve the evolution 4 tree and maybe increase the critical chance of the incarnon form because it seems counter-intuitive to the stat changes or upgrade tree. Or the other choice we have is just to benefit from the upgrade tree and use the crit build base form if you prefer that. It's an improvement to some degree for a decent weapon with either forms but it seems like they were probably intending it to better and did it wrong maybe which they might fix later on.

Edited May 23, 2023 by TheSteelMushroom