How I wish the Circuit game mode worked; promoting player choice

[EdDiesel]

The circuit is an interesting game mode. The RNG or randomness allows players to explore new, retired, or unacquired weapons and frames however, if the player decides to play steel path, they will need to determine whether to play with the weapon unoptimized (unleveled, missing catalyst, forma etc.) putting them at a huge disadvantage to start. Or instead, the player can leave Duvuri and try to level and optimize the gear by other means first. Then revisit the circuit knowing they will have a better chance at creating a more optimized build when those weapons come back into rotation.

 

How I wish the game mode worked is that the player had the option to select the frames and weapons they want to use from the start. The game mode is not endless instead there are different variations. For example, the circuit game mode variations offer a set number of stages such as, 3, 6, 10+ that the player could opt into from the start. The player will be allowed to choose their frame and weapon for the first stage. Once stage 1 is completed the frame and weapons used during that stage are locked out from being selected in future stages for that run. To start stage 2 the player will again select their next option from a pool of weapons and frames they have preselected.  The preselection phase would start once the game mode is selected. The player will enter a solo lobby to start preparing what weapons and frames they want to add to their pool. Once determined they will enter a portal to start the mission or if playing in public, they would instead start the match making process to start the mission. The initial setup ensures other players cannot start the game mode prematurely while others are preparing their loadouts. The option to select the number of stages will allow newer players to get in on the action after they have acquired a few weapons and frames due to the limitations of their arsenal. For example, stage 3 circuit being the lowest tier available would require that the player have 3 unique weapons and frames which I believe adds more relevance and promotes the idea for players to collect more frames and weapons. In addition, the player will have some experience playing with the frame and weapons prior to having access to the game mode. More seasoned players can take it further as they have acquired more weapons and frames by playing higher stage circuit modes allowing them to put their arsenal to the test while promoting the idea of collecting weapons and frames. This also promotes player choice and does not undermine progression. The last stage of every circuit run would have a boss fight. Longer runs if steel path can have additional twist and turns added to increase level of difficulty to keep things interesting.

 

[chaotea]

I have to say that I love the randomness of duviris circuit more than anything. Because of it ive gone back to using weapons or warframes i'd otherwise dismissed. I like that it forces me to think outside the box, rather than obsess of minute fine tuning of builds.

[Slayer-.]

58 minutes ago, chaotea said:

I have to say that I love the randomness of duviris circuit more than anything. Because of it ive gone back to using weapons or warframes i'd otherwise dismissed. I like that it forces me to think outside the box, rather than obsess of minute fine tuning of builds.

I like that as well, I just wish DE didn't give me so many MR5 weapons doing the steel path circuit as I do know, but apart from that it's fun and makes a nice refreshing change to other content.

[ReddyDisco]

It's different from the rest of the game where you are god and enemies barely put up a fight, in circuit you have to use ur head to make weak garbage weapons capable of killing sp enemies, that itself is interesting if done in moderation. However the circuit limited missions have lost their charm now, feels like a chore. 

[Joezone619]

I wish it gave us the ability to choose which missions we wanted, or which order. But balanced in a way that we cant just choose 1 missions. I want to opt-out of the defence and excavation missions, the circuit is always fun... right up until those.

[CephalonCarnage]

Of course the SP aspect is not where this should be. Using old weapons for a refresh of fun is one thing, but that should be happening with normal enemies and guns modded appropriately.

Instead they tried to make them SP capable and sent you in to grind incarnons. That's the opposite of what is needed here as it means they're overmodded for normal mode making that too easy. So they failed at both modes: neither case has you using the weapons for fun. Of course, they also paired them with endless open-maps where any concept of tactical play with the weapon is irrelevant. If they'd made the SP version one where you navigate a maze, slowly shooting and making your way through hard-level enemies, then the weapons themselves might have come into play more. As it is, just melee them instead.

 

To make you want to try the old weapons, you need them to be used in the context of their power. Taking a stug for SP enemies doesn't give you that, it just makes you rely on the 1 random weapon that is most powerful or you do your best to complete the round and then exit. The weapons are not exactly being used, more you're there despite them.

If they wanted this to work as a random fun mode, it should have been a Simaris mode with some simaris tokens, minor rewards or some other leaderboard using tiles similar to grineer galleon corridors and a plain frame like Excalibur to make you use a different weapon.

eg. would you ever pick a sniper rifle in current circuit? No way, as the enemies charge and spawn at you. But I have run a grineer mission using a sniper rifle back in the early days, it was quite fun.

[taiiat]

uh wouldn't being able to pick what Warframe/Weapons defeat the purpose of exactly what is being praised? i don't understand this Post.

 

anyways, there's a fair amount of Weapons that with the default Mods are usable in Steel Path. however.... some of them are not very useful like that.

but this is to the blame of the default Mods? some Weapons get defaulted with some Galvanized Mods, some of them don't........ inexplicably.
also almost all Weapons get no Elemental Mods on them. but why? even adding Blast Damage to a Weapon increases its Damage more than having zero Elementals. if you don't want to be too optimal why doesn't the game pick a random Elemental type to add to the Weapon? that would fit with the randomized theme and still make the Weapons more capable than they are now, in general. you can add an exception for Slash weighted Weapons or Elemental base Weapons to Mod them up a little bit differently to try not to accidentally nerf them by doing that.
some Weapons get far more sensible default Mods than others do, in short. some of them i look at their Mods and it's like "this is a good Weapon, but these Mods are crap, i'm definitely not taking this because this can't be good as is".

i think my favorite is Impact/Puncture based Melee Weapons that are stacking Impact/Puncture Mods, aren't using Condition Overload, aren't using any conditional Mods, may not even be using Crit Mods (as some aren't suitable for Crits)....
so, in effect this Weapon basically only has Pressure Point and however many Attack Speed Mods are on it? bro, this Weapon effectively has like, 3 Mods on it.

[SneakyErvin]

With the access we have to powerful frames and weapons this method would be pointless. At such a point they might aswell just let us pick loadout and be done with it instead of adding pointless loading times and prepping in between stages (which I assume is what you want). Currently I have way too many pre-made loadouts that would completely trivialize the circuit if I could pick them at all times, even with limitations of only 1 stage per loadout. All I'd need to do is shift around some weapons, but there are enough of those to get atleast 20+ different working loadouts that would wreck the circuit. And at that point there would be no need to even look at decrees.

The random system atleast gives me a reason to think a bit and I might get an option that isnt automatically faceroll.

[EdDiesel]

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

I have to say that I love the randomness of duviris circuit more than anything. Because of it ive gone back to using weapons or warframes i'd otherwise dismissed. I like that it forces me to think outside the box, rather than obsess of minute fine tuning of builds.

There is definitely some replayability value there. Its not entirely bad. Especially useful for standard mode allowing players more exposure to how weapons work and test frames they do not yet have.

[Felsagger]

3 hours ago, chaotea said:

I have to say that I love the randomness of duviris circuit more than anything. Because of it ive gone back to using weapons or warframes i'd otherwise dismissed. I like that it forces me to think outside the box, rather than obsess of minute fine tuning of builds.

 

I entirely disagree with this. If I want the game of chances, I play Pachinko. Besides Pachinko is entertaining for what it is. 

But THIS should BE an option that the game SHOULD have almost for every weapon and mission such as "mystery heroes" where I let the RNG decide my weapon, warframe and build in a reasonable way. 

A. The RNG is intelligent and knows the structure of the mission where the selector optimizes your build for that particular mission. Everything IS imposed but optimized. Many games are like this. It's nothing new. 

B. The RNG simply random select the Warframe and Weapons such as in Duviri giving you five randomized choices. (NOT a bad idea)

C. The player takes control completely of the LOAD OUT entirely doing everything that includes Duviri. 

 

If this IS the case, I will have ZERO objection, if any. I would plug in the RNG to decide my fate OR I test my builds against enemies the way I want. 

[EdDiesel]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

uh wouldn't being able to pick what Warframe/Weapons defeat the purpose of exactly what is being praised? i don't understand this Post.

 

anyways, there's a fair amount of Weapons that with the default Mods are usable in Steel Path. however.... some of them are not very useful like that.

but this is to the blame of the default Mods? some Weapons get defaulted with some Galvanized Mods, some of them don't........ inexplicably.
also almost all Weapons get no Elemental Mods on them. but why? even adding Blast Damage to a Weapon increases its Damage more than having zero Elementals. if you don't want to be too optimal why doesn't the game pick a random Elemental type to add to the Weapon? that would fit with the randomized theme and still make the Weapons more capable than they are now, in general. you can add an exception for Slash weighted Weapons or Elemental base Weapons to Mod them up a little bit differently to try not to accidentally nerf them by doing that.
some Weapons get far more sensible default Mods than others do, in short. some of them i look at their Mods and it's like "this is a good Weapon, but these Mods are crap, i'm definitely not taking this because this can't be good as is".

i think my favorite is Impact/Puncture based Melee Weapons that are stacking Impact/Puncture Mods, aren't using Condition Overload, aren't using any conditional Mods, may not even be using Crit Mods (as some aren't suitable for Crits)....
so, in effect this Weapon basically only has Pressure Point and however many Attack Speed Mods are on it? bro, this Weapon effectively has like, 3 Mods on it.

In my example you would be able to pick all warframes and weapons you want to use. When a new stage starts you select your next favorite frame its not random.  There are 53+ warframes and many weapons in the game. Stage 10 circuit would require an established player to pick 10 out of 54+ frames to bring with them.

[EdDiesel]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

With the access we have to powerful frames and weapons this method would be pointless. At such a point they might aswell just let us pick loadout and be done with it instead of adding pointless loading times and prepping in between stages (which I assume is what you want). Currently I have way too many pre-made loadouts that would completely trivialize the circuit if I could pick them at all times, even with limitations of only 1 stage per loadout. All I'd need to do is shift around some weapons, but there are enough of those to get atleast 20+ different working loadouts that would wreck the circuit. And at that point there would be no need to even look at decrees.

The random system atleast gives me a reason to think a bit and I might get an option that isnt automatically faceroll.

I suppose you have a point alternatively, you could think of this method providing a sense of reward for established players that have well rounded arsenals too. I did mention that the game mode would not be endless however, they could technically continue to increase stages in future updates. I believe there are 53+ warframes and out of those there are a handful that are great for specific missions types. For example Defense. If you are going 10+ eventually you may run out of frame options to choose from that are built specifically to handle that mission type. In between stages there would be a 30s -1 min timer to select your next frame and weapons, Pre planning is done before game mode starts.

[Felsagger]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

With the access we have to powerful frames and weapons this method would be pointless. At such a point they might aswell just let us pick loadout and be done with it instead of adding pointless loading times and prepping in between stages (which I assume is what you want). Currently I have way too many pre-made loadouts that would completely trivialize the circuit if I could pick them at all times, even with limitations of only 1 stage per loadout. All I'd need to do is shift around some weapons, but there are enough of those to get atleast 20+ different working loadouts that would wreck the circuit. And at that point there would be no need to even look at decrees.

The random system atleast gives me a reason to think a bit and I might get an option that isnt automatically faceroll.

But let us train a bit until we get ready to deal with the RNG selector. If the RNG selector gives us prechoices optimized for the undercroft/ SP missions then I would not say a word. 

I think that the ballance you talked about on previous posts would be possible here in Duviri if DE temperates the frame with the mission parameters. 

[Tsukinoki]

51 minutes ago, EdDiesel said:

I suppose you have a point alternatively, you could think of this method providing a sense of reward for established players that have well rounded arsenals too. I did mention that the game mode would not be endless however, they could technically continue to increase stages in future updates. I believe there are 53+ warframes and out of those there are a handful that are great for specific missions types. For example Defense. If you are going 10+ eventually you may run out of frame options to choose from that are built specifically to handle that mission type. In between stages there would be a 30s -1 min timer to select your next frame and weapons, Pre planning is done before game mode starts.

The problem with your idea is that defensive frames aren't really all that needed...at least not at first.

I could go to round 15 in the circuit and see defense 3 times.  I would only need a "defensive" frame in that final one as all others prior to that can easily be handled solo without a defensive frame (I've done it before, not that difficult especially with some helminth abilities that make it much easier to defend a point with any frame).
So out of a 15 round circuit I would only need to purposefully pick one frame...the rest wouldn't matter as you don't really have failure conditions in any of the other mission types that the circuit can throw at you, so at that point it would just be choosing weapon loadouts...and I have more than 15 weapons that can handle SP circuit missions without an issue and can just choose one of the "good" ones per round with trash in the other two slots as they wouldn't matter in the least.

At that point the only "thinking" that is occurring is "Do I have enough power with decrees where it doesn't matter what order I pull my "good" weapons out?  Or should I hold off on the best ones until near the end?"

 

Beyond that though it makes the "setup" a "one-and-done" type deal.
After all once I get my 15 frames and 45 weapons setup I never need to think about them or touch them again....after all they can handle to round 15 in the circuit without any difficulty so I don't need to ever touch it again.
Then it just becomes "Run through 15 rounds over and over and over and over and over again, getting the exact same frames and the exact same weapons every single time....." the only difference between each run would be the order that I use some things in, after all is the 3rd defense mission going to be round 11?  or round 15?

 

You seem to fail to realize that out of the entire circuit there is only one mission that is failable to any actual degree, which makes it fairly trivial to plan around that one point of failure.
Further you fail to realize that there are a few helminth abilities which trivialize most defense missions due to being able to turn off the AI to various degrees.

You're setting up a situation where it becomes trivial and a complete snooze-fest to sit through X rounds in the circuit without having to think or try that hard, or risk failure of any kind.

In fact you are removing a portion of the difficulty of the circuit beyond being able to choose your loadout: Ammo concerns.
I wouldn't need to sit and consider ammo concerns for any of the weapons I choose...after all they are gone after the round and I get fresh ones.
No more going "Great weapon but low ammo and low ammo drops means I need to conserve its use...." it just becomes "Spam everything since I'll have fresh ammo and everything next round with my new weapons!"

 

The only annoying factor your adding in is that every time I sign up to do the circuit I now have to select the same 15 frames and 45 weapons before I can start.....

[(PSN)Unstar]

I do think that Steel Path Circuit is at odds with the idea of encouraging players to explore different gear, because I don't feel like I can be fumbling around with unfamiliar, non-optimally modded gear and still be successful in the rapidly escalating Steel Path Circuit runs.  I'd love to just play around with new toys, but unfortunately the non-Steel Path Circuit rewards rarely have anything that appeals to a pseudo-end-game player like myself.  The Incarnons and new Arcanes are the main draw, and I can only get them from the Steel Path version, so that's the only version of the Circuit that I play.

I feel like all non-SP Circuit needs to flourish is to offer some sort of evergreen reward, like maybe a handful of Pathos Clamps every X rounds; all that mode needs is an incentive for "vets" to play it.

As for the Steel Path Circuit, I feel like it's mostly a great experience, but it feels less like it encourages me to think outside the box and more like there's a random roll that determines how deep I'll be able to go with my group.  I love the idea of playing a variety of game modes with a single build, but I do think the experience would improve if I had more control over the baseline quality of the build I entered with.  Especially as a player with arthritis which makes it difficult for me to use many of the game's weapons.

[Darkmega18]

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

I have to say that I love the randomness of duviris circuit more than anything.

4 hours ago, Slayer-. said:

I like that as well,

Can I join the club? I think I've been hanging out watching the feedback and bugs areas too long... >_> too many tired SP circuit dislikers getting mad and threatening leaving.

[(XBOX)ONI LawIiet]

does not matter what you want

 

they could leave it all as is, and add in a completely separate option to use whatever you want.

and all the RNG lovers would *@##$ and moan like you stole something from them when you added another option.

 

they want you to play there way, if you dont like it your wrong, if you want another option that takes away nothing your clearly trying to ruin the game mode and should go play something else.

 

I love warframe, but i am more then happy to watch it driven into the ground out of spite for some of these players, because nobody will be around to listen when they are complaining about the state of the game in 5 years.

i will have no problem moving on, warframe is not my life, just a game. 

[nslay]

I just want to pick the variant or duplicate in a randomized family of weapons. I don't always want DE's defined "highest tier".

That said, I do like the randomness concept overall. Again, I don't like DE's idea of "highest tier".

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, EdDiesel said:

I suppose you have a point alternatively, you could think of this method providing a sense of reward for established players that have well rounded arsenals too. I did mention that the game mode would not be endless however, they could technically continue to increase stages in future updates. I believe there are 53+ warframes and out of those there are a handful that are great for specific missions types. For example Defense. If you are going 10+ eventually you may run out of frame options to choose from that are built specifically to handle that mission type. In between stages there would be a 30s -1 min timer to select your next frame and weapons, Pre planning is done before game mode starts.

It would simply trivialize the risk vs the reward. The RNG in our loadout is the RNG of the mode more or less, since everything else aside from arcanes (which are now obsolete to grind in circuit). So giving us even 10 free choices would trivialize things, because you'd have 10 guaranteed stages at that point to rake in the progress for the weekly path. As it is now with RNG, at times you get really bad picks that wont allow you to push, balancing out the lack of loot RNG for the mode itself. And I think the reward you speak of for established players is already there, since we already have a reliable choice most every time when it comes to frames, and likely atleast 1 out of the 3 weapon slots that will let us solve the missions at hand with the right decrees combined.

17 hours ago, Felsagger said:

But let us train a bit until we get ready to deal with the RNG selector. If the RNG selector gives us prechoices optimized for the undercroft/ SP missions then I would not say a word. 

I think that the ballance you talked about on previous posts would be possible here in Duviri if DE temperates the frame with the mission parameters. 

You dont think up to 10 years is enough practice in the game? And all new players will have the normal circuit to train and learn in before having a chance to hit up SP.

How? How would they balance it for someone like me and other that already own all frames and have enough of them pimped out to the teeth so we always end up with atleast one choice that works? And we currently have 5 different mission parameters and a 6th coming with Echos, how would they make anything fit all of them?

16 hours ago, nslay said:

I just want to pick the variant or duplicate in a randomized family of weapons. I don't always want DE's defined "highest tier".

That said, I do like the randomness concept overall. Again, I don't like DE's idea of "highest tier".

👍 To that!

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

You dont think up to 10 years is enough practice in the game? And all new players will have the normal circuit to train and learn in before having a chance to hit up SP.

How? How would they balance it for someone like me and other that already own all frames and have enough of them pimped out to the teeth so we always end up with at least one choice that works? And we currently have 5 different mission parameters and a 6th coming with Echos, how would they make anything fit all of them?

 

Well, I don't count. :P 

When we are veterans we always find ways to get over what DE throws at us since we already are accustomed to the game. And yes normal circuit is there for the training for SP. At least an option of having and not having the RNG would be great, in my opinion. Sometimes I want to RNG everything or simply go as usual. More options the better. Keeping a customer happy is an investment in the long run, in my humble opinion. 

[stormy505]

On 2023-06-30 at 11:19 AM, Tsukinoki said:

there is only one mission that is failable to any actual degree

The survival life support changes have made it harder. I haven't failed it yet but I also haven't done a lvl cap run since the change. if you're going above the 1k level area I think it's probably harder than defense now.

[Hypernaut1]

My only gripe with the RNG is seeing the same non crafted weapons more often than not. 

It's not fun when you have most weapons crafted and keep seeing the same few weapons you haven't crafted over and over. It kind of defeats the purpose of RNG when it purposely favors the few weapons you don't even play

[Felsagger]

20 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

My only gripe with the RNG is seeing weapons more often than not. 

It's not fun when you have most weapons crafted and keep seeing the same few weapons you haven't crafted over and over. It kind of defeats the purpose of RNG when it favors weapons you don't even play

It's IRONIC that YOU are critiquing the issue. (Your critique IS accurate)

It's more IRONIC that the RNG is not doing the job properly. 

 

It's almost paradoxical. I have seen everything today.....lol. 

[SneakyErvin]

21 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Well, I don't count. :P 

When we are veterans we always find ways to get over what DE throws at us since we already are accustomed to the game. And yes normal circuit is there for the training for SP. At least an option of having and not having the RNG would be great, in my opinion. Sometimes I want to RNG everything or simply go as usual. More options the better. Keeping a customer happy is an investment in the long run, in my humble opinion. 

That is why we have several different other game modes without the RNG already. Or should we start asking for a arbitration mode where dying like in regular modes is allowed? ESO without efficiency needs? And what should the penalty be for not having RNG?

[Felsagger]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is why we have several different other game modes without the RNG already. Or should we start asking for a arbitration mode where dying like in regular modes is allowed? ESO without efficiency needs? And what should the penalty be for not having RNG?

hmm, well, you are NOT wrong. 

In the end I have to get every weapon and Warframe anyway. Knowing my repertoire is not a bad thing. At least I experience the work DE did with all the corners for the game. Of course it can't be bad at all. Eventually, you, me and all the players interested will reach this point. I would be a complete hypocrite (and I was) if I say otherwise. It's not easy get this flexible mindset of accepting new changes. It's not that easy understanding and giving away our comfort zone eiter. After all this is a challenge too and counts as "difficulty" that the game offer. 

Well Ervin, there should be a trade for not having RNG in Duviri. Maybe that could be the no reward principle. It would be a 50/50. If I play for the sake of intrinsic, NO RNG, then I do not have the privilege of the reward. Or if I do play for the extrinsic then I do have to face the RNG and get the reward. It's a more "persuasive" way of accepting the challenge that Duviri offer. Once we know how it works then we plunge ourselves in that constraint.