The difference between complaining and criticizing.

[BlueBand]

I've only been using this forum for like a day or so. Made a different thread. Made some comments in that thread. Then checked out a couple other threads. I've seen chat. I've interacted with players before. And was even on warframe reddit for a bit. And through all that i've noticed one consistent thing.

 

A lot of people don't know the difference between complaining and criticism. So here we go. 100% sure people will point out if they think i'm wrong. But i'm also pretty sure i'm not on this subject.

 

Complaining....generally speaking...isn't valid. There's no way to verify that complaining is true. Has a point. Or is something someone or many someone's should fix. Criticizing? Is. You can verify the problem brought up when someone is criticizing something or someone. You can point to it. There's a point there. There's something to talk about there. Here's another thing. People can do both. And sometimes people can do both at the same time. Taken line by line. A comment or thread could start out with just complaining and end with some real criticism. Or it can start out with criticism and end in complaining. Hell, it can even have a bit of both sprinkled in.

 

A person can go...i hate excal.....he has less survivability than rhino. The first part is just complaining. It's hate. So it isn't really valid. But the part about not being able to survive as long as rhino...is valid.

 

It'd be real nice if people paid attention to stuff like that. I'm sure it'd make the community a bit better when it comes to showing the developers what players actually want. And showing what's actually wrong with the game or right about the game. Don't get me wrong. While it isn't valid. Complaining is good for the soul sometimes. Makes us feel better to get something out. At the same time. People not knowing the difference and painting criticism as complaining...to me..does far worse. To restate. There's logic in complaining. Helps us get our frustrations out. Not always good. Not always bad. Criticism? That's the basis of logic. And no matter what the subject matter or the person. It can help. Across the board.

 

But again again. Some people don't know the difference and paint any and everyone saying anything about the game as..complaining. That's it. Up to yall what you think about that one.

[Tiltskillet]

Criticism: complaints I agree with.  Complaints: criticism I don't.

...or...

Criticism: what I do.   Complaints: what all those damn complainers do.

:P

[Voltage]

4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Criticism: complaints I agree with.  Complaints: criticism I don't.

...or...

Criticism: what I do.   Complaints: what all those damn complainers do.

:P

You're just complaining because you don't like something. Play a different game. Arg :P

[kamisama85]

It becomes complaining when you bring the same critique 100 times in 100 other posts that were about a different critique.

[emmyemi]

Complaining is just as valid as criticizing, but the two have very different purposes.

Criticism is done because you want to draw attention to a pain point that, if resolved, could improve the game overall. Not all critiques are created equal, of course, and what one person thinks will improve the game may not be what's actually best for it, or what the developers intend—but the core idea is that criticism is concerned, first and foremost, with identifying something that isn't working and improving it.

Complaining, on the other hand, is done because you are upset with something and want to vent about it. Being upset about something in the game doesn't necessarily mean that the thing is bad, nor does it mean that you think it should be changed (although you may also think these things). The point of the complaint is mostly to blow off steam. This is something that humans need to do, for better or worse, and is valid, though not always welcomed.

Edited July 25, 2023 by emmyemi

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Most of the complaining sterms from the player'sfrustration. Be it gameplay wise or inability to cope with situations. Everything dies in one ht. I hate it. Enemy units are bullet sponge. I hate it. Missions are too long. I hate it. Missions last for 2 minutes. I hate it. Warframe is so accessibly it becomes a jumble mess of opinions.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

I think it's a bit deeper than that. Similar to constrictive criticisms, reasonable complaints can be a healthy vent and could stir up a good discussion, offering solutions or deep dives that could help the complainer, and perhaps others, understand better.

Whining, on the other hand, is where the problems arise, and there's too much of it here lately. It's not hard to see when someone's vent is actually a poor attempt to find some way to get DE to allow rewarding for less, or zero, effort. This needs to be pushed back on at all times.

[Hypernaut1]

All I know is that I don't get people that complain about Warframe being Warframe after they've already played 1000+ hrs. 

Some people literally sound like they hate the very core of the game from RNG, to grind, to general gameplay to do/acquire anything. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Hypernaut1

[(PSN)Unstar]

5 hours ago, BlueBand said:

Complaining....generally speaking...isn't valid.

I have to strongly disagree with this, as it goes too far and seems to dismiss complaining.  I would instead frame it like this: constructive criticism is what you get when you dig into a complaint and really hone the value at its core.

Which is to say, complaints do have value!  At their core, they are always about how a person feels about something, and while feelings are subjective they are also real.  Often what makes a complaint a complaint rather than a criticism is that it is not expressed in a way that lends itself to being heard and understood by others who aren't already in the same boat.  In other words, it's not that it has no value, but rather that it is inaccessible.  And that makes it hard to understand, and thus hard to have a productive discourse about.

And let's be clear: feelings are a vital aspect of criticism; there is no objectivity in criticism.  As the Bard said, "Tis nothing in this world truly good or bad, but thinking makes it so."  To use OP's hypothetical example, let's take the statement "Excalibur has less survivability than Rhino".  Presuming it's true, is that a good thing or a bad thing?  Perhaps neither?  Without more context it is just an arbitrary statement; it can be neither criticism nor complaint without the addition of feelings or opinions.  The "I hate Excal" part of the hypothetical is vital to understanding what the speaker is trying to express.

And while it would be ideal if everyone provided eloquent criticisms rather than clumsy complaints, the fact is that that's not always possible.  Some people haven't yet developed the skills to do so.  Sometimes emotion or weariness can cloud our ability to express.  Sometimes (in reality, almost always) we have limited time in our busy lives to devote to expressing what we want to.  Perfection is often out of our reach.  And yet regardless of the thinker's immediate capability, those feelings and thoughts are real and impactful.  In my opinion, I think that our world is a far better one if we as listeners can put the effort into finding the value in imperfect expressions, rather than policing them and thus encouraging folks to bottle things up inside until they can manage an ideal explanation of what they feel and think.  To put it another way, some people are better than others at accessibly expressing their ideas, and I don't think that makes them more deserving of being heard than others; to be willing to listen even when accessibility is lacking is a way to be equitable to your fellow humans.

Finally, if we're really being thorough about exploring this issue, we also have to acknowledge that what is labeled as a complaint versus a criticism is not solely based on the articulation of the speaker, but is also determined by the subjective biases of any given listener.  So always keep in mind that you are a part of the equation.

I hope this helps someone. :)

Edited July 25, 2023 by (PSN)Unstar

[ReddyDisco]

Those words mean the same depending on who disagrees with you.

[Veridian]

I'd also add it vastly depends on the tone it's written in.

If it reads constructive, informative and impassive, then I take it as an actual critique.

Unfortunately most posts are with clickbaity titles, caps all over the place, whining, over exaggerating and it reads more like a toddler screaming.

[Tiltskillet]

2 minutes ago, Veridian said:

I'd also add it vastly depends on the tone it's written in.

Oh, that's a very good point.   I think it's pretty common for people on game forums to bring up a reasonable issue but couch it in terms that trigger others into disagreeing.  Even people who would normally  agree with the feedback if it had been articulated differently.

Speaking for myself, I know there are lots of times I really have to try to filter through what's being said in order to look at it semi-objectively. 

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, BlueBand said:

A person can go...i hate excal.....he has less survivability than rhino. The first part is just complaining. It's hate. So it isn't really valid. But the part about not being able to survive as long as rhino...is valid.

In other words, this "I hate excal" example actually is valid, you just have to be able to look past the "hate" and understand what's actually being said instead of getting all offended over the wording. People get frustrated sometimes, and that's fine. As long as you're not narrow minded and unempathetic you should be able to look past that and respond constructively. Or you could be inflammatory, dismiss this as whining, and whine about the whining until the thread gets dragged into another unconstructive cesspit. Cough cough.

[Packetdancer]

2 hours ago, emmyemi said:

Complaining is just as valid as criticizing, but the two have very different purposes.

Gonna just put this here, run a highlighter across it, underline it a couple of times...

Anyway, I think where a lot of the friction comes in is when folks treat one as the other.

You have people who are just complaining/venting and really only just want to blow off steam, and they get irritated by people coming in trying to suggest solutions. Sometimes, you don't want a solution; you need to vent the frustration before you can even consider a solution. Being given a solution can feel like "your frustration is invalid" to folks sometimes.

Conversely, you'll have people trying to critique and make suggestions on how to improve a thing, and other folks will come in screaming "YEAH IT SUCKS IT CANNOT BE FIXED" and it's like... no, the corner for complaining/venting is over there, this is constructive criticism to try to improve things, please take the primal scream therapy to a different thread.

(This is why when a friend is going "YAAAAARGH" about something I'll often ask, "Do you want advice, or do you just need someone to express sympathy and nod in understanding while you scream about it for a bit?" It can be useful to know which mode to be in!)

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

7 hours ago, BlueBand said:

I've only been using this forum for like a day or so. Made a different thread. Made some comments in that thread. Then checked out a couple other threads. I've seen chat. I've interacted with players before. And was even on warframe reddit for a bit. And through all that i've noticed one consistent thing.

 

A lot of people don't know the difference between complaining and criticism. So here we go. 100% sure people will point out if they think i'm wrong. But i'm also pretty sure i'm not on this subject.

 

Complaining....generally speaking...isn't valid. There's no way to verify that complaining is true. Has a point. Or is something someone or many someone's should fix. Criticizing? Is. You can verify the problem brought up when someone is criticizing something or someone. You can point to it. There's a point there. There's something to talk about there. Here's another thing. People can do both. And sometimes people can do both at the same time. Taken line by line. A comment or thread could start out with just complaining and end with some real criticism. Or it can start out with criticism and end in complaining. Hell, it can even have a bit of both sprinkled in.

 

A person can go...i hate excal.....he has less survivability than rhino. The first part is just complaining. It's hate. So it isn't really valid. But the part about not being able to survive as long as rhino...is valid.

 

It'd be real nice if people paid attention to stuff like that. I'm sure it'd make the community a bit better when it comes to showing the developers what players actually want. And showing what's actually wrong with the game or right about the game. Don't get me wrong. While it isn't valid. Complaining is good for the soul sometimes. Makes us feel better to get something out. At the same time. People not knowing the difference and painting criticism as complaining...to me..does far worse. To restate. There's logic in complaining. Helps us get our frustrations out. Not always good. Not always bad. Criticism? That's the basis of logic. And no matter what the subject matter or the person. It can help. Across the board.

 

But again again. Some people don't know the difference and paint any and everyone saying anything about the game as..complaining. That's it. Up to yall what you think about that one.

Inb4 thread gets derailed and locked because some people cant handle being criticized and "bUt MuH mEtA cOmPlAiNtS"

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, Packetdancer said:

Sometimes, you don't want a solution; you need to vent the frustration before you can even consider a solution. Being given a solution can feel like "your frustration is invalid" to folks sometimes.

And that's fine.  But people posting for that reason in a public game discussion forum, who don't articulate what they're doing exactly, especially in a DE feedback or Players Helping Players thread, had better be prepared to get responses (polite ones) of all sorts.  No one here is a mindreader, or anybody's personal AI affirmation generator.    Well, I'm not, anyway, I have some suspicions about a few of yall.  :P

[Leqesai]

4 hours ago, emmyemi said:

Complaining is just as valid as criticizing, but the two have very different purposes.

Criticism is done because you want to draw attention to a pain point that, if resolved, could improve the game overall. Not all critiques are created equal, of course, and what one person thinks will improve the game may not be what's actually best for it, or what the developers intend—but the core idea is that criticism is concerned, first and foremost, with identifying something that isn't working and improving it.

Complaining, on the other hand, is done because you are upset with something and want to vent about it. Being upset about something in the game doesn't necessarily mean that the thing is bad, nor does it mean that you think it should be changed (although you may also think these things). The point of the complaint is mostly to blow off steam. This is something that humans need to do, for better or worse, and is valid, though not always welcomed.

Well said.

[Hayrack]

The what?? Reporting bugs is an action of complaining, are you saying bug reports are invalid???

We can argue if complaining is vague or elaborate, founded or unfounded, but only the Devs/Support/Admins can decide if complaint is valid (make changes) or invalid (ignore), and then act accordingly.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Hayrack

[Letter13]

While I agree about the distinctions between complaints vs. criticism and the difference of validity & usefulness between the two, making a thread to complain about (har har, the irony) or criticize others for their complaints or criticisms is not really a good basis for discussion, it's something commonly referred to as metacomplaints, and not something we endorse on these forums, which is why I'm going to lock the thread.

 

That said, all users are encouraged to employ constructive criticism if there's something they don't like or want to see changed; the best way to get seen by the developers and have one's ideas or feedback considered is to follow a constructive approach:

1. Identify what is disliked, and provide reason(s) why,
2. Propose ideas or suggestions for how it might be improved, and
3. do so in a civil and respectful manner.