Stop new feature development and fix Host Migration issues once and for all

[Gelos.Prime]

I am sick of getting Host Migration issues and am growing more angry each time they happen

Tonight I was trying to run Steel Path Incursion missions.  Three times I joined a full group, we landed, started moving, and after 2-3 seconds my screen froze for anywhere from 20 to maybe 45 seconds, I received the Host Migration message and was left alone at the start of the mission

Host Migration issues continue to be a problem release after release after release and I am sick of it

DE, this is not a request, but a demand:  Fix the Host Migration issues once and for all, in every case they may happen, in every mission type possible, whether happening at start, mid-mission or at the end.  Stop development on all new warframes, weapons and other game features, put as many developers on it as are needed and fix these issues in a reliable manner NOW

[Pakaku]

If your game froze after you loaded into a mission, that sounds like it could be an issue on your end

[NinthAria]

Something tells me you aren't in a position to demand anything of anyone at DE.

[Stafelund]

To be fair it's really telling that a bug has been hasn't been fixed for years despite it gets brought up from time to time by users. It's not only host migration too, there's still others like the operator bug where you can't do anything else.

[Gelos.Prime]

11 hours ago, Pakaku said:

If your game froze after you loaded into a mission, that sounds like it could be an issue on your end

I do not play many online games, but the few I do are major titles.  Warframe is the ONLY game where when I join and start a group activity that at some point the game is interrupted and I'm suddenly solo in that activity.  That has never happened with any the other games and only happens for me in Warframe, so no, it's not an issue on my end.

Or to put it another way:  The other major games I play don't have this issue in my normal Windows 10 environment on my normal fast, wired internet connection.  Warframe shouldn't either

 

11 hours ago, NinthAria said:

Something tells me you aren't in a position to demand anything of anyone at DE.

Something tells me that as a regular platinum buyer who therefore helps pay salaries and the electric bill at DE (among other things) that, actually, I am in exactly that position

[LittleLeoniePrime]

fixing host migration is fixing everyone's hardware. if y'all keep playing on toasters and bamboo internet, that's your (collective you not you specifically) issue not DE's

The only thing DE can do is up the minimum specs so that people can stop complaining already and realise they are below the minimum required specs.

Edited October 5, 2023 by LittleLeoniePrime

[Nekomian]

7 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

Stop development on all new warframes, weapons and other game features, put as many developers on it as are needed and fix these issues in a reliable manner NOW

Demanding attitude aside, they cannot fix this issue without stopping development for a considerable amount of time and reworking their entire network coding and structure, which would cause the game to likely go under due to content drought and player disengagement, and even that may not fully fix the problem itself.

I'm not sure what other games you play, but this sort of migration issue happens in P2P architectures, which is what Warframe uses for their in-mission squad communications. The network code itself is just communicating between clients over ports - the issues only arise when the host has a sudden drop or there are conflicting issues with NAT that prevent clients from connecting to one another, or establishing a new host. Dedicated servers could fix the issue of the migration itself, but may not fix the issue of players randomly leaving due to crashes or network disconnects. No amount of developer time can resolve individuals having poor or intermittent connections, or technical issues.

In your case, your system froze and caused you to become disconnected to other players, because you reached past the 7s threshold (I think it's that duration) for keeping the connection alive, so the game put you in your own session. As far as the other clients and host goes, they do not receive anything as your game is not responding to them, so you could've alt f4'd or crashed or any other number of things, so they remove you from the session. It would do this even with dedicated servers (as would other games requiring constant keep-alive requests), this is an individual system issue.

What they can do, and what I've asked for a while now, is to make host migrations degrade more gracefully; that is, preserve the data between clients better, and track things more effectively. When a migration occurs (which they will, given the architecture and nature of peoples' internet) it attempts to negotiate a host between clients while preserving all mission statuses (defense stage, abilities in current use and their times, HP of entities, etc.). If it truly cannot negotiate a host, it puts the player in a session by themselves; otherwise, keep attempting to join the session with the new host if it does migrate.

It already does this to some degree, but not effectively enough, with migrations causing lost progress, disabling abilities or entities, and sometimes dropping players if they cannot establish a consistent network path to the new host. I would like to see improvements to the internal logic that handles migrations, but I understand that has unique challenges given how many different network topologies and setups people have and how they don't always like to play nice with one another when they should (i.e. ISP in Egypt deploying a change that causes players to be unable to connect to other squads for months).

[NinthAria]

5 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

Something tells me that as a regular platinum buyer who therefore helps pay salaries and the electric bill at DE (among other things) that, actually, I am in exactly that position

You're not a shareholder. You paid for in-game stuff, not the authority to direct the company. Posting demands (in the wrong forum, at that) like this just makes you look like a churl and decreases the odds that anybody at DE will actually listen to you.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

You can't fix..."once and for all" when people aren't even hardwired with 7 people on wifi.......

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

6 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

I do not play many online games, but the few I do are major titles.  Warframe is the ONLY game where when I join and start a group activity that at some point the game is interrupted and I'm suddenly solo in that activity.  That has never happened with any the other games and only happens for me in Warframe, so no, it's not an issue on my end.

Happens all the time with lots of online games I play.  In fact it's rare I could name you a game that hasn't had a sudden disconnect between me and other players.  Or in most cases with the people I am currently partied with. 

Host migration just feels a little worse in Warframe because the whole game session is often lost when you loose connection to the host. 

[Silligoose]

13 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

I am sick of getting Host Migration issues and am growing more angry each time they happen

Tonight I was trying to run Steel Path Incursion missions.  Three times I joined a full group, we landed, started moving, and after 2-3 seconds my screen froze for anywhere from 20 to maybe 45 seconds, I received the Host Migration message and was left alone at the start of the mission

Host Migration issues continue to be a problem release after release after release and I am sick of it

DE, this is not a request, but a demand:  Fix the Host Migration issues once and for all, in every case they may happen, in every mission type possible, whether happening at start, mid-mission or at the end.  Stop development on all new warframes, weapons and other game features, put as many developers on it as are needed and fix these issues in a reliable manner NOW

It's a coding issue.

I'd love to see it improved or see innovations being attempted as with Bungee. Sadly, looking at the truckload of bugs DE introduces with updates, Duviri being a prime example, I do not have high hopes for the company behind said bugged releases actually addressing this issue. 

Even if by some miracle they decide to give it a go: One of their main selling points for Focus 3.0 was "removing the jank" from Operator play, but we're still moonwalkin'!

Edited October 5, 2023 by Silligoose

[Zimzala]

14 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

DE, this is not a request, but a demand:  ... NOW

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Thanks so much for that, I laughed so hard my wife wanted to know what was so funny.

And no, just because you give the game makers a few pennies does not put you in a position to make demands on coding efforts, that's some seriously delusional thinking.

You don't like that you cannot get what you want from WF?

That's fine, don't play it! No one is forcing you to play a game you, yourself, imply is some sort of inferior product when you have others form which to choose, you are doing this to yourself.

Your choice is to play or not to play - you can kvetch and moan until the heat death of the universe, but beyond purchasing the company or becoming an employee assigned to fix the things you don't like, your choice really is to play or not to play.

I think it's hilarious you are so full of your own steam that you have any standing to make demands, that is a seriously delusional outlook.

But as always, these kinds of posts bring me so much laughter I never want them to stop appearing..."I demand..." ... get real, your entitlement is showing...

[Gelos.Prime]

Thank you to those of you who have responded in a thoughtful, constructive manner.

It is true I am only a single user.  But it is also true Host Migration issues affect all of us, platinum buyers and non-buyers alike, whether we're on a PC or console platform.

Yes, "demand" is a strong term, but in regard to continuing Host Migration issues I, for one, have moved on from the "Hey, could you pretty-please fix this issue?" approach.

I agree DE probably cannot completely re-write their entire network and group-based architecture.  But I also assert they can do a lot more to make it better and more reliable.

I'm sure everyone remembers the first couple of months running Duviri, where we were all praying not to get a Host Migration before getting to the Orowyrm fight at the end because that would mean losing all our progress to that point.  Yes, DE fixed that issue, but the solution was really just putting another band-aid on the problem.

While it may be true my current approach is overly aggressive, I would encourage everyone to speak up in whatever manner they deem best so DE takes notice and fixes, once and for all, these continuing, chronic Host Migration issues.

[trst]

"Kill the game and fix an issue that's mostly the result of the end user"

There, fixed the title for you.

[Zimzala]

39 minutes ago, Gelos.Prime said:

I'm sure everyone

This is where your logic gets off track.

To be 'sure everyone' sees the world the way you do is simply delusional.

For example, how about the people that play Solo only? How about the people that did not play during the initial rollout of that expansion?

When the things you want to base the rest of your 'argument' upon are demonstrably false, how can anyone accept the rest of the message?

I get your message - Host Migration Is Frustrating - but trying to use demonstrably inaccurate appeals to emotion and vilify the game company over something that cannot be changed without a complete rework of the network layer is ... useless, IMO.

It's like saying "it's 2023, why don't we have moon-bases and world peace", just because some arbitrary amount of time has passed.

It's obvious that you don't even have a valid understanding of the technology the game uses to grasp why your argument is so flawed, beyond it's 'aggression'.

So, encourage people to complain, it's not like they need it, and I will continue to laugh at these uniformed appeals to emotion to solve technical issues.

Good Luck and Happy Gaming.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

A good advise to avoid Host Migration as much as possible is to go into Option, set your matchmaking ping to 50. You will experience far less Host Migration. There will still be one or two but far less than before.

[Packetdancer]

3 hours ago, Silligoose said:

It's a coding issue.

I'd love to see it improved or see innovations being attempted as with Bungee.

Honestly, I strongly suspect it's more an architectural issue. Which is unfortunate, because changing the overall network architecture can be way more involved than just cleaning up some code; it's the difference between fixing the wiring in a house and needing to completely replace the foundation. With an architectural issue, the root of the rot can be deep and hard to dig out.

I mean, to use Bungie as an example (since you referenced them)... from what I've heard from an ex-Bungie friend, it was largely only the fact that Destiny 2 was an entire new game not beholden to the existing codebase that allowed them to move away from the Destiny 1 multiplayer architecture (which had its own host migration issues).

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I don't like to make presumptions about other peoples knowledge base or areas of expertise or understanding. When it comes to online technology, its stability and usage, I myself am definitely not an expert. I wouldn't consider myself that knowledgable at all really. So I am open to being corrected. The issues you describe though OP, I am not sure DE is in a position to address them. Warframe uses a P2P system, are you sure some of your host migrations aren't the result of other players? What other games specifically, are you comparing Warframe to? In this regard? Are they good comparisons?

I don't think the issue is that you may come off as overly aggressive, or not, rather depending on what you mean, you could essentially be demanding that DE solve world wide technological parity. In some ways its like asking them to solve the weather, because on one morning you experienced rain and it made it frustrated. At least as far as fixing "host migration issues", "once and for all". 

Desiring and emphasising improvements to assist in avoiding host migrations and improving online stability, as best as possible in line with either competition, or current technology allows, I think is a much more reasonable demand. Though, I am also not sure leveraging that demand against new content is the best idea either, a lot of players like new content and spending habits probably support that as well. Also, if the issue is that important to you, like sure, demand away, just what if DE can't do, or won't do as you demand? Do you just nod placidly and then play the next update? There are things, I would personally like DE to do, but I wouldn't necessarily demand that they do them, because they aren't really that hugely important to me, that I would need to phrase it as a demand. It would undermine the effectiveness of the demand, unless I actually followed it up with some sort of action. 

I empathise and sympathise with getting frustrated and annoyed with host migrations. To my best understanding though, its a larger issue (and depending to what scale you mean, aka end host migrations once and for all, being pretty extreme), oh and to be clear, I think they should be solved, but thats stepping into some subjects the forums do not exist for. 

[kamisama85]

19 hours ago, Gelos.Prime said:

I am sick of getting Host Migration issues and am growing more angry each time they happen

Host Migration issues continue to be a problem release after release after release and I am sick of it

Half the time it's literally people with terrible PC hardware/connections. People who haven't even configured their routers properly, and people who haven't upgraded beyond 8 GB of RAM since 2013, much less even from Windows 7. I have seen way too many times people complaining about host migrations, and then when asked to describe the state of their hardware and connectivity, turns out to be some nightmare toaster from Y2K. 

For those instances where it's not, it just means someone else had a lousy connection/hardware. Nothing you can do about it. This isn't an issue DE can hope to solve universally without literally enforcing a high bar on minimum hardware requirements. Not going to happen.

At the end of the day, it will be cheaper and less stress for everyone if you reach critical mass, explode, and host migrate from this game forever.

[Raarsi]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like they'd absolutely lose it if this thread had the words "I want to speak with the manager"?

Yes, host migration is annoying, but it can always be worse.  I mean, who do you think they are, Blizzard Entertainment?

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

2 hours ago, Raarsi said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like they'd absolutely lose it if this thread had the words "I want to speak with the manager"?

Yes, host migration is annoying, but it can always be worse.  I mean, who do you think they are, Blizzard Entertainment?

On the internet board that usually goes like, "I am the manager. No Refund. You sign the ToS. Live with it. No complaining either. That's against the ToS."

[S2Weak]

It's actually very easy to fix. Just make every game session hosted by official servers like Relays.

But I guess it would bankrupt DE.

 

Maybe they can ask Tencent for some pocket money?

[0_The_F00l]

Firstly , i don't think any player is in any position to demand anything from DE regarding changes to their game. Irrespective the amount of platinum they have bought or hours they have played.

Secondly , the issue of host migration (as others have highlighted) is not a code issue , it's a network architecture issue. P2P is cheap but is also dependent on the network of its players , so if the host has bad internet or bad hardware there will be host migrations  more frequently it relies completely on the end users.

This definitely is an issue for some players , and DE really should have some better mechanisms to handle it ,but moving from one network architecture to another is not going to be easy , I am very curious how warframe mobile is going to handle it. 

There are some things you can do on your end to mitigate part of this , you want to make sure you are not on a bursty network, keep a tab on your latency in a squad or set your limit to a very low value so you are less likely to be paired with bad hosts. And don't keep anything downloading or playing in the background that hogs internet.

[CephalonCarnage]

19 hours ago, LittleLeoniePrime said:

fixing host migration is fixing everyone's hardware. if y'all keep playing on toasters and bamboo internet, that's your (collective you not you specifically) issue not DE's

The only thing DE can do is up the minimum specs so that people can stop complaining already and realise they are below the minimum required specs.

Disagree,

Host migration is nothing to do with hardware. Everything to do with maintaining session state for the squad in mission. Right now, it appears DE has a host migration system that attempts to recreate the state from remaining players, which would be the only way to go about it if the host disconnected. However, many hosts in the game do not disconnect but leave the squad. They are still in-game and still have the state to migrate. So if DE wanted to fix at least half the issues, then they should update the migration code to directly copy state from ex-host to new-host, blocking the ex host with a "hostmigration" message.

This woulnd't stop hosts that truly disappear from the network, but woudl fix all the open world problems, including the extraction at Zariman. Host gets a "please wait, migrating" message and waits, squad gets "host migration" message, and shortly afterwards all can continue as if nothing had happened. It might also encourage hosts to be less of a $&*^ about quitting squads if it means they get hit with the migration delay too.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Saw title, thought oh hey someone said what we're ALL thinking. But nope bootlicking. I had to abandon Circuit again after host left because my entire loadout was #*!%ed. 

No I'm not playing solo. I'm not in a co-op game for the isolation ffs. 

Edited October 6, 2023 by (PSN)Tactless_Ninja