Rakosta_Kai Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said: For me all that sounds weak. Well, that's because it is... Both Freeze and Ice Wave are weaker attacks than Avalanche by design. Were they as strong as Avalanche they'd have similar energy costs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raarsi Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 I've always felt like the biggest issue with Frost is that so many Frost players have so many different opinions on how he should be played compared to how he's played currently and that there seems to be almost no compromising of opinions. I mean, if you only saw the forums and not the gameplay, you'd think Frost was worse than Inaros right now. I wouldn't be opposed to any touch-up work on him, but I think he's fine and that an overhaul for him would just be a waste of time and resources. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosoMalvadoNG Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 hace 3 horas, (XBOX)Hellsteeth30 dijo: It's in my way, never mentioned Gara. In tighter defence missions I can't work. Especially when they mod for radius, they're up there with troll Limbos. ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)robotwars7 Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 a full rework isn't necessary, but he does need modernizing so that he can keep up with newer frames. his current 3 and 4 would stay as they are, but I'd change the following: - a new passive; his current one is terrible, I'd rather him just apply a cold proc to enemies that go near him and slow them down, it'd be far more useful while not being overpowered. - it still baffles me that our ice frame can't throw icicles; I'd rework his one to have a tap/hold function: tap casts the usual snowball that deals cold damage and applies a guaranteed cold proc, holding creates an Ice Shard: a large, razor-sharp dart that pierces enemies dealing high slash and puncture damage as well as a cold proc. freeze still detonates globes, as that's a necessary function. - Ice Wave could also have this function, tap to create a wave of slowing cold, while holding summons large ice spikes out of the ground that impale enemies in it's path, dealing high slash and puncture damage as well as cold. IMO the main area where frost is lacking is in not having a real direct offensive; he can strip armor very well and CC like a pro with his 4, but a lot of the frames people seem to enjoy most these days are ones that deal damage with their abilities, and sharp icicles are no joke. with a kit like this, Frost will no longer be "the defense mode frame", and can be a more useful pick in other modes like exterminate and survival. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakhul Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 As a Frost main, i can concur with OP, yes, Frost does not need a full blown rework like Hydroid did. HOWEVER Frost needs more QoL changes to his kit. Even with all of the indirect buffs to Frost, his kit is extremely dated still. His passive is still USELESS. The interaction in between Freeze and Snowglobe prevents for more Helminth combos, as the only ability that you can really trade off, is Ice Wave. Speaking of Ice Wave, not just its description is dated (Heavy damage.... more like, Heavy disappointment) but also, the one thing that makes this ability good, is an augment that should be integrated into the ability. Finally, the only ability worth speaking for Frost in today's meta, Avalanche. Avalanche does pretty much everything the other abilities do, and better, specially now that the augment offers Overguard. Personally, i would make Biting Frost, his new passive, and remove completely the interaction of Freeze and Snowglobe, making it so that holding the snowglobe button while inside the globe, or while aiming at the globe, will remove it. Additionally, is about time Frost should move together with his globe, like Eximus units do already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)slightconfuzzled Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 So I don't disagree, however... Success can have different measures and levels. Whilst many seem excited, appreciative or are just generally talking about Hydroid more than usual, and praising aspects of them, there are other types of success, arguably some more important, like long time increased activity from players. In which case, a few days after rework, its premature to make such calls. I think if Hydroid experiences a small boost in usage by next years usage stats, then that could be a type of success. Just of course that means waiting until then. There seem to be a decent portion of fans, including some Hydroid players, with conflicting views over the rework. Maybe they just need time, just that there could be an irony here, because if Frost did get reworked, given the large playerbase in general, someone will probably consider it a success. Being weary of one rework whilst considering another a success... We need more context. People were asking for a Frost rework, much often and regularly before Hydroid got his, its not a "now" thing. More of a language issue, but there can sometimes be inconsistency in terms. Personally, I think you are using rework appropriately. Personally, some small buffs and minor adjustments to a kit, aren't reworks to myself. Reworks are by definition, more substantial, and usually include a significant change to a kit. Like replacing a whole ability, or two, or heavy modifications to how you can play it. Hydroid would count, Grendel. We have seen many Warframes the last few years get small changes, adjustments though. The three starters, Nyx, Garuda and a few others. Even technically Frost himself, indirectly, from changes to armour strip and cold status. I mention this, because there may be people who would like a small "Frost rework" but they might just mean small adjustments, QOL, small buffs, without heavy changes. With all that out of the way, personally, on a selfish level, I'd like Frost to get a rework. However I don't think he needs one either. Just because I know i could personally enjoy him more, doesn't necessarily mean, I think the game needs to cater to me individually. There are like 40 other Warframe I like and can enjoy. I also do like and have come to appreciate Frost. Especially with the armour and cold changes. There are a lot of Frost enjoyers who like him as is. There are some Warframe, I like, that I wouldn't want to see them get reworked too extensively... So. Mind you, what I would want from Frost isn't too dramatic. I would just want his globe to not interfere with allies at all. It can be annoying, frustrating and intrusive. I'd like his one to have a more interesting interaction with his globe, for a more interesting and better scaling combo. Like maybe if it shot icicles out or ice spears, and some other buffs, like to his passive and or looking to make some of his augments inherent or borrow from them for the base ability. All this is more abstract though, I'd be fine if Frost remained as he is for those that like him currently. Small nice buffs and QOL changes could always be nice (for all Warframes over time too, TBH, just to help them keep pace with others, the evolving nature of the game, and to contend with others power creep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 8 hours ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said: Yeah, but how many frames can you say that for? Half of the og cast? Loki also has 2 abilities that are pretty useless. Ash also has a really weak 1 and 3 without augments. Equinox 3 in night mode is pretty awful compared to other damage reductions, and her 1 is for her gimmick just like Frost 1 is. I could go on... Well yeah, I didn't say Frost is the ONLY frame that should get a rework. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveCutler Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Frost isn't bad. He's pretty decent. But it's all because of just one ability: Avalanche. Frost's passive and other three abilities are all worthless. He needs a rework. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvelous_A Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 He could use new 1st and 2nd abilities but honestly the 3rd and 4th are so powerful he doesn't really need to cast 1st and 2nd anyway. He's already way above usable state compared to a lot of other warframes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 7 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said: -snip- Yeah I'm sure Freeze and Ice Wave have niche uses that some people swear by, but I highly doubt they actually see major use as part of Frost's overall kit. Everything has a niche, even Decoy, but if an ability isn't frequently used then that should be something to look at and improve. I would argue that Ice Wave and Freeze are just worse applications of what Avalanche does, with the relatively-minor downside of higher Energy cost (which is easily negated in modern Warframe's energy economy). Freeze is most useful for popping Globes, but that's a QoL tool rather than "Freeze on Globes is a cool ability". Other than his 1 and 2, his Passive is obviously also terrible, and "lots of other frames have bad passives" isn't a defence. Frost is strong already, especially in defence; it's just that his kit could be designed better. Reworks don't always have to be about making frames stronger, just improving their design. Plenty of reworks have focused on improving design rather than directly increasing strength. I think Frost would be more fun to play with a rework to his Passive, 1, and 2; I don't want Avalanche/Snow Globe nerfed or anything like that. Maybe bake Chilling Globe into the core ability, that's all I can think of. To be honest it seems like a lot of people in this thread are anti-rework because they're assuming people are calling their favourite frame bad. Frost isn't bad! He could just be better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TARINunit9 Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said: His passive is useless. It's also hilarious. I once froze Stalker with it 10 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said: His first ability is only for detonating Snow Globes just to remove them, the explosion itself does nothing to enemies. His first ability is only useless if Volt's, Ember's, Ash's, and Oberon's are also useless. The idea is "you're reloading your weapons and an enemy is in your face RIGHT NOW, your first ability will stun them without interrupting your reload." If you think that's useless in the game now, I won't argue, but I think they still have a place Edited October 21, 2023 by TARINunit9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Leyenda-yight6 Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 hace 25 minutos, TARINunit9 dijo: It's also hilarious. I once froze Stalker with it His first ability is only useless if Volt's, Ember's, Ash's, and Oberon's are also useless. The idea is "you're reloading your weapons and an enemy is in your face RIGHT NOW, your first ability will stun them without interrupting your reload." If you think that's useless in the game now, I won't argue, but I think they still have a place Those first skills are also useless, if there is an enemy in front of you while you reload your weapons you can jump, run, slide or simply endure their damage (if they are melee enemies you will surely dodge them by just moving back a little), plus each one can do the same using another ability in his kit: with Volt, the electric shield, with Ember his 3, with Ash his invisibility and with Oberon I couldn't tell you why I don't use it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Pablo should rework Frost and get rid of the dome since it promotes a stationary play style. Replace it with a buff that gives him ice armor. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakosta_Kai Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 32 minutes ago, YUNoJump said: Yeah I'm sure Freeze and Ice Wave have niche uses that some people swear by, but I highly doubt they actually see major use as part of Frost's overall kit. You shouldn't "highly doubt" what you lack a relevant frame of reference for. The fact that people disagree with your opinion on the matter, in this thread alone, should be enough to let you know that your opinion isn't the only opinion to be had on the matter. 48 minutes ago, YUNoJump said: I would argue that Ice Wave and Freeze are just worse applications of what Avalanche does, with the relatively-minor downside of higher Energy cost (which is easily negated in modern Warframe's energy economy). Freeze is most useful for popping Globes, but that's a QoL tool rather than "Freeze on Globes is a cool ability". Other than his 1 and 2, his Passive is obviously also terrible, and "lots of other frames have bad passives" isn't a defence. Hilariously, I don't agree with anything you've said here with exception of the statement of the obvious— Frost Freezes stuff and his abilities do it to varying degrees (pun not intended). My question: Was that news? I feel like that must have been some recent revelation as a few of you have brought that up and it boggles my mind that you feel it's news worthy. Did someone bring it up on Youtube or something? Likewise the assertions that Freeze and Ice Wave should somehow be as effective as Avalanche are also rather silly imo. If they did as much they'd cost as much, so expecting them to do as much makes no sense. As to the subject of energy? Energy still matters. How do we know? We know this because stuff that gives energy is still expensive to trade for as demand remains high for those items. Your comments about the "modern energy economy" won't change that fact. On Frost's passive? Me stating most o the frame's passives are lackluster is simply a statement of fact. I don't need to defend a statement of fact. You asserting it needing to be changed is a matter of opinion. For my part, his current passive has saved me from getting sucker punched more than a few times and that's the best I can say for it. When they announced his re-work forever ago I asked for a shatter mechanic.. they gave it to Gauss instead. Then I stopped caring as I don't play frames for their passives. That said, Passives, when implemented, were supposed to be more thematic than meaningful but I can see why yourself and others would be angsty about passives since Hydroid got one so impactful—FOMO is FOMO and you should go to the feedback forum and ask for that I guess. Yet, a Dev pass on Frost's passive still isn't cause for a rework. Neither is it their job to entice you to press a button other than 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Madurai-Prime Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Nothing wrong with a few tweaks to the 2, but a full rework isn't needed I agree. Frost is like the only defense frame that can trivialize Kuva defense. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YUNoJump Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said: You shouldn't "highly doubt" what you lack a relevant frame of reference for. The fact that people disagree with your opinion on the matter, in this thread alone, should be enough to let you know that your opinion isn't the only opinion to be had on the matter. I actually haven't seen any specific reasons that Ice Wave and Freeze aren't outclassed by Avalanche beyond Energy cost. A few people have said "his 1 and 2 apply Cold procs which increase crit damage" but Avalanche actually applies the same number of Cold procs (6), so that argument doesn't hold water. I just haven't been shown how these abilities are useful beyond incredibly niche stuff. 1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said: Hilariously, I don't agree with anything you've said here with exception of the statement of the obvious— Frost Freezes stuff and his abilities do it to varying degrees (pun not intended). Please explain your reasoning, you've just said "I disagree" with no further context. I'd love to hear how you think these abilities are an integral part of Frost's kit. 1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said: My question: Was that news? I feel like that must have been some recent revelation as a few of you have brought that up and it boggles my mind that you feel it's news worthy. Did someone bring it up on Youtube or something? I don't know what you mean here. News? None of this is "new". Frost's base kit hasn't been fundamentally changed since 2015. The only other technical change is that Cold increases crit damage, but as above that isn't a specific boon to his 1 and 2. 1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said: Likewise the assertions that Freeze and Ice Wave should somehow be as effective as Avalanche are also rather silly imo. If they did as much they'd cost as much, so expecting them to do as much makes no sense. As to the subject of energy? Energy still matters. How do we know? We know this because stuff that gives energy is still expensive to trade for as demand remains high for those items. Your comments about the "modern energy economy" won't change that fact. I can't think of any other frame with an ability that is "a worse version of their other abilities but cheaper". That doesn't sound like interesting design to me. It's easier than ever to regain energy, and trade value doesn't really reflect that. There are now multiple Arcanes and Mods that grant energy (not just the vastly-overvalued Energize), and of course Zenurik. Frost only needs 167% Strength to fully strip armour, so it's not hard to make him efficient either. Besides that, despite his 1 and 2 being cheaper, they're not cost-effective. Ice Wave costs 50% of Avalanche, but casting 2 Ice Waves won't give you nearly as much effect as 1 Avalanche. Even more so for Freeze. You also don't get the armor strip. 1 hour ago, Rakosta_Kai said: On Frost's passive? Me stating most o the frame's passives are lackluster is simply a statement of fact. I don't need to defend a statement of fact. You asserting it needing to be changed is a matter of opinion. I don't refute that a lot of Passives are lackluster, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be better. Some frames have really good Passives, I think "really good" should be something we strive for. You're just saying "everything sucks so why improve?" Does Frost getting a better Passive negatively affect you in some way? His 1 and 2 would undoubtedly get buffed in any rework, does that negatively affect you in some way? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollexMessier Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) I love frost. I do think his current state is good. But it has some really clear issues. The main one is his globe blocking ally projectiles. It griefs the team. it basically forces you to stay inside of it which makes defensive missions just that much more boring. And it makes his 1, which is otherwise a completely worthless ability, mandatory to have. (and for some reason this mechanic extends to allied Ice eximus globes which are indestructible. Pro tip: do not ever convert an ice element sister of parvos) Icewave is almost as useless as his 1 would be if it didn't have the mandatory mechanic of breaking globes. Both of them just cold proc. That's basically the only thing they do. their augments' aren't worth the mod slot, and you know what else in his kit cold procs? His 4. Which is just as spamable, is a full 360 degree large range aoe, AND freezes enemies solid on top of the cold status. on paper his overguard augment for his 4 is good DR... key phrase being "on paper". In practice enemies erase it the instant you get it and at best it saves you from half the damage you'll take during the casting animation at high levels. I only ever manage to stack overguard when I have teamates erasing enemies before they can hit me. And the moment one does, all my overguard is instantly gone, even at max stack. I don't understand why player overguard is made out of actual paper. He needs a proper DR ability. Something that buffs his armor so it synergizes with globe. And honestly his overguard augment could use a buff on top of that, or player overguard in general needs a blanket buff. Speaking of augments. Biting frost also looks good on paper. Hell it would make Frost a top tier frame.... if not for the fact that all of the enemies you'd want +200% critical chance and damage against are immune to being frozen. All the enemies that can be frozen can be evaporated effortlessly without it. The enemies that can't be frozen are the tanky ones you actually want damage buffing abilities against. Edited October 22, 2023 by PollexMessier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)GEN-Son_17 Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 9 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said: For me all that sounds weak. Freeze slow nearby enemies, yeah cool but avalanche FREEZE enemies reduce or remove armor and it's 360 decently large AoE. Ice Wave give 35% critical multiplier boost with 6 cold stacks, which isn't a great number but always something. anyway Avalanche is reducing or removing armor so you will do much more damage to enemies that were armored, you can use both on the same enemies but that's additional casting step in this time you could just kill them quicker by just shooting at them after Avalanche that removes armor and stops them from shooting, also the Augment for Frozen enemies that Frost weapons have 200% critical chance and 200% critical damage bonus. Ice Wave only Reducing enemy DPS while Avalanche just stops their DPS because of Frozen state. So anyway Ice Wave and Freeze is still useless, the same as his passive ability need to change. So, you are rating his lower abilities against his ULTIMATE ability and declaring the lower abilities are weaker? Well OF COURSE! 😂 When the energy is not there for his 4, then you can use his 1 and 2 to cover, just like any other frame. Again, you seem to concentrate your whole view on the ult and it doesn't work that way. Frost is absolutely devastating as is and doesn't need more of that. It's fine if you don't utilize those abilities but that doesn't mean they are useless or weak. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakosta_Kai Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: I actually haven't seen any specific reasons that Ice Wave and Freeze aren't outclassed by Avalanche beyond Energy cost. A few people have said "his 1 and 2 apply Cold procs which increase crit damage" but Avalanche actually applies the same number of Cold procs (6), so that argument doesn't hold water. I just haven't been shown how these abilities are useful beyond incredibly niche stuff. This isn't really an argument. You do not possess analytics showing how people use Frost and what skills they use most. So any assertions you make in regard to player use and reasoning is speculation on your part. 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: Please explain your reasoning, you've just said "I disagree" with no further context. I'd love to hear how you think these abilities are an integral part of Frost's kit. Actually, I said I disagree with what you've said and explained why in my post. If my reasoning has escaped you, I would suggest re-reading what I wrote to begin with. 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: I don't know what you mean here. News? None of this is "new". Then why did you feel the need to state the obvious? 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: I can't think of any other frame with an ability that is "a worse version of their other abilities but cheaper". That doesn't sound like interesting design to me. I think that's because you've elected to look at it though the lens of " a worse version of Avalanche but cheaper" which neither Freeze or Ice Wave emulate past the fact that they inflict cold status on stuff— which just so happens to be the theme of Frost to begin with. 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: It's easier than ever to regain energy, and trade value doesn't really reflect that. There are now multiple Arcanes and Mods that grant energy (not just the vastly-overvalued Energize), and of course Zenurik. Frost only needs 167% Strength to fully strip armour, so it's not hard to make him efficient either. Trade value certainly does reflect that as demand outstrips supply. Arguing that options exist isn't an argument as no one said options didn't. It simply isn't as small of an issue as you make of it. 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: Besides that, despite his 1 and 2 being cheaper, they're not cost-effective. Ice Wave costs 50% of Avalanche, but casting 2 Ice Waves won't give you nearly as much effect as 1 Avalanche. Even more so for Freeze. You also don't get the armor strip. That argument cuts in both directions—Avalanche is a very poor and expensive tool if all you need to do is lockdown a corner, door, hallway or cast on a small group. But those are the niche uses that you keep actively overlooking... 1 hour ago, YUNoJump said: You're just saying "everything sucks so why improve?" Actually, I haven't said anything of the sort. The fact that you translated what I have said in that manner is interesting though. To me, it appears to be another instance of disregarding facts for another more convenient fiction. You are, of course, entitled to your convenient fictions. That said, I am not required to align with them. 2 hours ago, YUNoJump said: Does Frost getting a better Passive negatively affect you in some way? His 1 and 2 would undoubtedly get buffed in any rework, does that negatively affect you in some way? The question, amongst this gaggle of logical fallacies you've called an argument so far, isn't how it would affect me. The question regarded whether a re-work of Frost is actually needed. For my part, I don't think so and have stated why. Many in this thread have echoed the same sentiment. The last bit of play analytics we saw from DE, likewise, doesn't support the opinion. There are others, like yourself, in this thread that share your opinions regarding Freeze and Ice Wave needing to be as impactful as Avalanche. You are welcome to this opinion but that does not mean I, or anyone else, should have to align with it. With respect, Asking me to do so or simply not raise objection on the matter is something I find nonsensical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexerin Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Frost does need a rework, but he's very low on the totem pole of priority for it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Joylesstuna Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) He has one fantastic ability while his other three are still quite bad. Luckily that one ability does just about everything you need. People definitely exaggerate his usefulness because if you take his only good ability away (which also requires an augment mod) you have one horrible warframe. Really wish snowglobe could be removed with both his first and second ability. I have been using him a lot lately and really enjoy him but only because of avalanche. Edited October 22, 2023 by (PSN)Joylesstuna 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said: Pablo should rework Frost and get rid of the dome since it promotes a stationary play style. Replace it with a buff that gives him ice armor. 90% of things in this game promote stationary playstyle like wisp/khora/citrine/nidus/protea/trinity/vauban and the list goes on Edited October 22, 2023 by Waeleto 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoomaseller Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 15 hours ago, IfritKajiTora said: Exactly this. Freeze is too small AoE and avalanche just does every better than freeze, armor reduction/removal, large AoE. Ice wave the same issue, Avalanche just does everything better than Ice Wave. They are just kind of OK if you don't have energy for Avalanche but 90 or 100% of the time with proper build you always have energy so you just don't use Freeze and Ice Wave. Those abilities doesn't have any synergy with his Snow Globe and Avalanche or passive. his 1 pops his 3. see???? so much synergy!!!!!!!! /s 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer-. Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 9 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said: Pablo should rework Frost and get rid of the dome since it promotes a stationary play style. Replace it with a buff that gives him ice armor. Refer to here. Getting rid of Snow Globe is a crazy idea. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waeleto Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 1 hour ago, Slayer-. said: Refer to here. Getting rid of Snow Globe is a crazy idea. literally asking to kill the frame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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