Augment rework

[Reaver_X]

So, i brought this up with a few people in council chat and they seemed to be on board with it, but i wanted to post it here too. A lot of people feel like the augments are really band-aid-ie and i figured since for the most part they really are just flat out better versions of warframe abilities, why not make them natural evolution's that can be unlocked by spending Endo instead of having to use up a mod slot. This would allow you to use whichever augments you'd like on your abilities without being constrained by mod space.

[BiancaRoughfin]

I agree most Augments feel like bandaid, however some of them i feel should be part of their respected frames/abilities instead of an augment.

Examples being Rhino`s Iron Shrapnel and Excalibur`s Chromatic Blade.

The idea of Augments being unlockable is interesting, perhaps add a UI similar to the Incarnon weapons where you pick which of the effects you wish to have active?

[trst]

Except we don't need yet another layer of powercreep, especially one that'd be massively inconsistent per frame.

Also I don't see how needing to spend a mod slot on an augment is ever a bad thing unless the mod is massively underpowered. If the mod has enough value to be slotted then it's just worth using just like every other mod you put in a build.

The only thing augments need is for the weak/too niche ones to be buffed so they're worth slotting. If players then feel like they're forced to spend a slot on them then that's their problem.

[Rathalio]

Tbh many augments are band aid but also many are truly strong. So I would say that they can't get the same treatment in a perspective of a rework.

Although in practice with the addition of archon shards, augments became a lot more affordable in builds too. It's again kind of band aid, but I don't really feel the limitations too much anymore with all what we have today.

[obiwandandobi2]

Yup have to agree with OP on some of the augments. Equinox energy transfer should be part of her kit. Rhino Iron shrapnel, recasting iron skin should be part of his kit. Using up a mod slot just to play a frame how they should be played is crazy, I mean who doesn't want to transfer what you've saved in mend and maim over? There's no advantage to not doing it so it should be part of her kit innately 

[Waeleto]

Tbh we need either a rework of the augments system or an augment slot

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

This is an augment slot thread in disguise.

While there's abilities that definitely should get the augment basekit, giving the option to just upgrade the ability because you want to free up a mod slot is not a good idea, this is just going to make strong frames even stronger.

[UnstarPrime]

2 hours ago, Reaver_X said:

This would allow you to use whichever augments you'd like on your abilities without being constrained by mod space.

You seem to see this as a good thing, but I see it as a bad thing.  Because being constrained by mod space is the whole point of the modding system. 

Limitations are what allow players to make meaningful decisions.  Having a limited number of mod slots means that players can't get everything they want, which means they will need to choose between different possibilities.  This is an important part of what makes creating a build for a frame so challenging and compelling, because you have to whittle down all the potential possibilities into a singular collection of choices that best fits your desires.

And Augments are a wonderful part of this system, as these are choices that often contain some of the most meaningful ramifications.  As an example, let's look at this mod:

This mod provides a lot of power.  And make no mistake, it's no band-aid; without this mod, Crush is already well-worth using.  It provides temporary CC, outputs damage, and caps my entire squad's overshields (including my pet).

And with this one mod, Crush gets even stronger, gaining:

• a cast speed buff
• a powerful armor strip
• a snare

I can only put 8 normal mods in my Warframe build, and out of the hundreds of mods that were competing for this slot, this Augment made the cut.  That means I deemed it one of the best 8 mods to use in the build I wanted to make.  Its slot in my build is well-earned.

But even though it's powerful, there are plenty of Mag players who aren't using this mod.  They want different things than I do, and because of that they made different choices.  And that's fantastic and interesting!  That indicates a system with depth!  This increases build variety in a very meaningful way, and it makes me think about what might be possible if I made different modding choices.  Maybe I'll even try them myself sometime!  But even if I don't, it's so cool to have decided on a build that fits me, and to see others deciding on different builds that fit them.  All of which is to say, removing Augments from this mod slot competition would remove so much of what makes modding a worthwhile system in the first place.

And to be clear, Fracturing Crush isn't an outlier; there are plenty of Augments that do a great job of earning their mod slots.  I'm sure we can all think of Augments that don't, but that's a problem with the balance of those specific mods, not the overall system.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Simply giving me more mod slots without giving me new choices to make with them isn't just needless power creep; it also serves to reduce the number of compelling choices I'm encouraged to make as a player, and reduces the value and impact of the choices that players make.'

No thank you.

[Marvelous_A]

30 minutes ago, UnstarPrime said:

You seem to see this as a good thing, but I see it as a bad thing.  Because being constrained by mod space is the whole point of the modding system. 

Limitations are what allow players to make meaningful decisions.  Having a limited number of mod slots means that players can't get everything they want, which means they will need to choose between different possibilities.  This is an important part of what makes creating a build for a frame so challenging and compelling, because you have to whittle down all the potential possibilities into a singular collection of choices that best fits your desires.

And Augments are a wonderful part of this system, as these are choices that often contain some of the most meaningful ramifications.  As an example, let's look at this mod:

This mod provides a lot of power.  And make no mistake, it's no band-aid; without this mod, Crush is already well-worth using.  It provides temporary CC, outputs damage, and caps my entire squad's overshields (including my pet).

And with this one mod, Crush gets even stronger, gaining:

• a cast speed buff
• a powerful armor strip
• a snare

I can only put 8 normal mods in my Warframe build, and out of the hundreds of mods that were competing for this slot, this Augment made the cut.  That means I deemed it one of the best 8 mods to use in the build I wanted to make.  Its slot in my build is well-earned.

But even though it's powerful, there are plenty of Mag players who aren't using this mod.  They want different things than I do, and because of that they made different choices.  And that's fantastic and interesting!  That indicates a system with depth!  This increases build variety in a very meaningful way, and it makes me think about what might be possible if I made different modding choices.  Maybe I'll even try them myself sometime!  But even if I don't, it's so cool to have decided on a build that fits me, and to see others deciding on different builds that fit them.  All of which is to say, removing Augments from this mod slot competition would remove so much of what makes modding a worthwhile system in the first place.

And to be clear, Fracturing Crush isn't an outlier; there are plenty of Augments that do a great job of earning their mod slots.  I'm sure we can all think of Augments that don't, but that's a problem with the balance of those specific mods, not the overall system.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Simply giving me more mod slots without giving me new choices to make with them isn't just needless power creep; it also serves to reduce the number of compelling choices I'm encouraged to make as a player, and reduces the value and impact of the choices that players make.'

No thank you.

Nice argument if we ignore the fact that 90% of augments are hot garbage and not worth a slot. Either way they require a rework. Making them worth the slot or take out the slot.

[UnstarPrime]

8 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Nice argument if we ignore the fact that 90% of augments are hot garbage and not worth a slot. Either way they require a rework. Making them worth the slot or take out the slot.

I addressed that in my comment. ^^

[(PSN)robotwars7]

no to an augment mod slot, but there's no denying that many augments are kinda trash, when IMO they should either offer:

a genuine upgrade to an existing ability, e.g. Blazing Pillage

or

an Alternate version of the ability, loosely based on existing kit, e.g. Rumbled (only not trash)

sadly there are so many augments in the game now that it's becoming unreasonable to expect DE to go back and look at ALL of them, when it's way easier for them to just start adding new augments instead and make them viable from the start. we're supposed to be getting 10(!) pretty soon, and sadly, it's almost certain one or two of them won't be top-tier, so they, like many older augments, will be forgotten quickly.

[trst]

1 hour ago, Marvelous_A said:

Nice argument if we ignore the fact that 90% of augments are hot garbage and not worth a slot. Either way they require a rework. Making them worth the slot or take out the slot.

If 90% of augments were hot garbage and not worth a slot then these threads/arguments wouldn't exist in the first place.

Nobody would be asking for "hot garbage" to be an innate part of a frame, to be able to have those effects equipped for free, players wouldn't be claiming that they're "band-aids" as if they're fixing the frame, nor would players insist that so many frames are "unplayable" without their augments.

Instead all of those threads would be solely about wanting said augments buffed. Which is a topic that gets thrown to the side with players instead asking for them to all be entirely free additions to their frames.

Edited January 31 by trst

[Tiltskillet]

16 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

sadly there are so many augments in the game now that it's becoming unreasonable to expect DE to go back and look at ALL of them, when it's way easier for them to just start adding new augments instead and make them viable from the start.

Good news: they reviewed a bunch (not all, by any means) in the not-too-distant past.  Bad news: several of the ones they reviewed are still regarded as bad, I think largely because of flaws in the abilities themselves.

I really do want an augment overhaul, with the starting point of DE deciding what they want augments as a concept to accomplish.  And in a lot of cases, it would mean some adjustments to base abilities.  But even if all that does happen--which ain't likely-- I don't have much hope that it'll be well handled.

Of course opening up augment slots and calling it good wouldn't be handling it well either.  It's just easier to imagine, since it wouldn't take nearly as much development, and can be monetized/grindetized.

 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

3 hours ago, Waeleto said:

Tbh we need either a rework of the augments system or an augment slot

Nah, not to this level of change. We especially don't need the mod slot. Having build limitations is a great thing because it supports thinking and give&take. Gaining the ability to nearly have it all would be boring.

[Marvelous_A]

30 minutes ago, trst said:

If 90% of augments were hot garbage and not worth a slot then these threads/arguments wouldn't exist in the first place.

Nobody would be asking for "hot garbage" to be an innate part of a frame, to be able to have those effects equipped for free, players wouldn't be claiming that they're "band-aids" as if they're fixing the frame, nor would players insist that so many frames are "unplayable" without their augments.

Instead all of those threads would be solely about wanting said augments buffed. Which is a topic that gets thrown to the side with players instead asking for them to all be entirely free additions to their frames.

90% of them are hot garbage not 90% of them are bandaids. Bandaids are the 10% that players actually give a F about. If the 90% don't cost you a slot, there might be a reason to bother with them.

[maddragonmaster]

this seems nice to talk about. the idea i  would throw around is making augments part of the subsuming system. lets say, we turn the augment mods into a augment recipe and then feed to the helminth. as for how it would work. i do not know for sure how it would work. all i know is that helminth gives us subsume abilities, and install shards onto our frame. so why not allow the helminth to take control of augmenting?

[Reaver_X]

theres a lot of builds i still feel somewhat constrained even without using an augment, that being said, i don't necessarily want an "augment slot" anyway, TBH im guessing DE is going to eventually make more augments past already having 4 for each ability on some frames, and with that its only going to get harder, having a system in place where you can simply upgrade your abilities to inheritantly be the augmented version for a resource is probably the better move in the long run.

For example, you have a whatever augment like capacitance for volt right? normally you have no reason to ever run it because he has better augments, like shock trooper. However, if you had the means to simply upgrade all your abilities to the augmented versions without using mod slots, you could totally make use of all of them without having to only use the overall BEST one.

Remember when the abilities themselves were mods on the frames that you could equip and un-equip? a lot of people wanted that to change, and eventually it did, and it changed for the better overall because it just felt weird to not have a warframe with all of its abilities present, even if said abilities werent always the best.

Personally i think a system like this would encourage the use of the lesser used augments.

[Tiltskillet]

25 minutes ago, Reaver_X said:

TBH im guessing DE is going to eventually make more augments past already having 4 for each ability on some frames

You probably meant one for each ability?  A few frames do already have two augments for an ability though.  (And supposedly Loki is getting a third one for Decoy, lol.)

[trst]

56 minutes ago, Reaver_X said:

theres a lot of builds i still feel somewhat constrained even without using an augment, that being said, i don't necessarily want an "augment slot" anyway, TBH im guessing DE is going to eventually make more augments past already having 4 for each ability on some frames, and with that its only going to get harder, having a system in place where you can simply upgrade your abilities to inheritantly be the augmented version for a resource is probably the better move in the long run.

For example, you have a whatever augment like capacitance for volt right? normally you have no reason to ever run it because he has better augments, like shock trooper. However, if you had the means to simply upgrade all your abilities to the augmented versions without using mod slots, you could totally make use of all of them without having to only use the overall BEST one.

Remember when the abilities themselves were mods on the frames that you could equip and un-equip? a lot of people wanted that to change, and eventually it did, and it changed for the better overall because it just felt weird to not have a warframe with all of its abilities present, even if said abilities werent always the best.

Personally i think a system like this would encourage the use of the lesser used augments.

The "issues" you're describing are literally intended features of the modding system. Needing to actually make a decision as to what you want your build to do and what you include in it is the entire point of even having the choice. As well it shouldn't be an issue of having to choose the "best" augment a frame has but choosing the best augment for what you're trying to accomplish. For instance you're saying Volt has better augments than Capacitance except Capacitance is a better choice if your build needs a survivability option while Shock Tropper would be better if your build needs/wants more weapon damage over other effects.

Also as I recall players didn't want ability mods removed. DE did because they realized most players were only slotting 1-2 abilities and rarely using a frame's entire kit. Which also means the two slots DE removed for that change was a net loss for a lot, if not most, builds.

And if you want lesser used augments to be used more the solution is to buff said augments. Making them innate just means the effect would go ignored/stay weak since it already wasn't valued by most players.

[0_The_F00l]

This is a mixed bag , while some augments would indeed help a lot of frames to catch up to others , there are a few that will just break the game further than what it already is.

My preference has always been to make few augments innate for the frames that are struggling and to keep others unchanged.

Very subjective to say what is what though.

[Aruquae]

Counter idea

Just add the obvious band-aid mods into a frame’s base kit…

I’m looking at you energy transfer

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

6 hours ago, Aruquae said:

Counter idea

Just add the obvious band-aid mods into a frame’s base kit…

I’m looking at you energy transfer

There's not many obvious choices, because the population is full of people with different knowledge and skill levels and build requirements.

[Xzorn]

• Rhino: Augment just to be able to re-cast Iron Skin.
• Nova: Two Augments because she can't re-cast Null Star
• Voruna: Augment that should be built into her 4th.
• Exacal: Surging Slash combo gain. No longer relevant.
• Chroma: Every Augment.
• Ash: Fatal Teleport, Rising Storm, no longer relevant.
• Forst: Chilling Globe, Icy Avalanche. No longer valid with Overguard Eximus. Other is weak.
• Hildryn: Blazing Pillage DOA.
• Inaros: Sand Storm and Desiccation augments. No value.
• Limbo: Rift Haven, troll augment.
• Loki: All Switch Teleport and Decoy augments because Decoy lasts 0.5s.
• Mesa: Pretty much all augments. Waltz if you like that sorta thing.
• Nekros: Soul Survivor. No longer relevant. Barely was to start.
• Nyx: Pacifying Bolt, When new limit is reached will get you killed.
• Trinity: Pool of Life. Funny joke.
• Valkyr: Swing Line. Funny joke. Prolonged Paralysis, no longer valid. Hysterical Assault should be built in.
• Zephyr: Every Augment. Mini Tornadoes were good till they fixed normal ones.

 

The first 2 easily bother me the most. I could keep going since there's a lot of trash augments out there.

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

There's not many obvious choices, because the population is full of people with different knowledge and skill levels and build requirements.

explain to me how Frost's impeding icewave augment shouldn't be part of his base kit? How icewave slowing enemies down shouldn't just be a thing?

[trst]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

• Rhino: Augment just to be able to re-cast Iron Skin.
• Nova: Two Augments because she can't re-cast Null Star
• Voruna: Augment that should be built into her 4th.
• Exacal: Surging Slash combo gain. No longer relevant.
• Chroma: Every Augment.
• Ash: Fatal Teleport, Rising Storm, no longer relevant.
• Forst: Chilling Globe, Icy Avalanche. No longer valid with Overguard Eximus. Other is weak.
• Hildryn: Blazing Pillage DOA.
• Inaros: Sand Storm and Desiccation augments. No value.
• Limbo: Rift Haven, troll augment.
• Loki: All Switch Teleport and Decoy augments because Decoy lasts 0.5s.
• Mesa: Pretty much all augments. Waltz if you like that sorta thing.
• Nekros: Soul Survivor. No longer relevant. Barely was to start.
• Nyx: Pacifying Bolt, When new limit is reached will get you killed.
• Trinity: Pool of Life. Funny joke.
• Valkyr: Swing Line. Funny joke. Prolonged Paralysis, no longer valid. Hysterical Assault should be built in.
• Zephyr: Every Augment. Mini Tornadoes were good till they fixed normal ones.

 

The first 2 easily bother me the most. I could keep going since there's a lot of trash augments out there.

Y'know I was going to explain how you're wrong on nearly every single one of these (and even then the bad ones are bad because the base ability is unusable) but it's not worth the effort. Just because you view something as bad or as a band-aid doesn't mean everyone else builds/plays the same way.