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[DE]Rebecca

Rhino: Charge, Roar & Stomp.

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Is there a possibility to give Rhino Charge some more momentum?

When it ends, it literally just stops you and you fall directly down if you are in air or you lose all moment of running

I would like it if when the charge ended you have a better transition from the ability back into motion.

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I like it!  Thanks for the heads up, looking forward to testing these changes on Rhino.

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At least make Iron Skin have a bigger base health, if plein invincibility is not the desired way. Give it a similar treatment as the one given to snow globe (newest one).

 

Also, let us recast iron skin without the augment, leaving only the damage thing exclusive to the mod.

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Secondly, Iron Skin will be unchanged. 

Hm-m... While i understand why it won't be changed, i still can't agree with «unchanging»:

a) Our Armour & Steel Fiber should affect Iron Skin. Yeah, the bad thing is it will be practically a god-mode for low/mid-tier missions (which is clearly not good), but on another side, it will be finally viable (and logical, isn't it?) for a high-tier mission. How to balance it? The more armour the less speed we have.

or

b) Re-cast. Should be a thing w/o «Iron Shrapnel». No offence, but if i'm not wrong the purpose of augments is to offer smth different to us, not just a fix for a base power.

 

The most immediate problem with Roar is obvious if you're freshly ranking Rhino: a 'Rank 1' Roar only lasts for 7 seconds, and takes about a full second or more to cast. The change we're making here is that Rhino's Roar will have a duration of 30 seconds regardless of your Frame Rank. For reference, currently a max-Rank, unmodded Roar lasts for 15 seconds. Note that, as before, the Duration can be enhanced through mods -- with the right mods a max-duration roar will last almost a minute and a half!

Well... i have ~38sec in my current preset and enough Str to buff teammates. Can't say it will help so much.

As a supportive Rhino i'd prefer this one, yes:

would be great if Roar would 'scare' nearby Enemies stiff. because Roaring is scary. :p

...along with random de-buffs for enemies, such as: armour reduction, speed reduction, accuracy reduction, panic state or just a chance to knockdown nearby ones.

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Just one more change is needed for Rhino, enemies that are hovering practically on the ground from the Stomp should let players perform ground finishers on them...

 

Thats the only thing that bothered me with Rhino's stomp.

Edited by (XB1)LexaHex488
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Duration Rhino is now a thing. Literally no one will build him that way.

 

Give him an agro debuff (takes a percentage of enemy fire off of squad [AS A TANK SHOULD]) with shinny shinny iron skin then he won't be a trash tier frame.

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Nice to know in advanced that there are changes comming.

 

About the current ideas posted.

 

Firstly, Rhino Charge:

 

We are working to added forced ragdolling to every enemy in Rhino's way when he casts Rhino Charge. We're looking to do-away with the scenario where Rhino Charges into a group of high-level enemies and stops dead in his tracks because his charge wasn't lethal; we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead!

 

Well utility against enemies too tough to die from getting hit is nice, but ragdolling in Warframe is currently quite glitchy. Seeing Greedy Pull Mags in action recently reminded me of that. So i can see a lot of problems comming with that.

 

Ragdolled enemies also tend to become problematic to kill because of glitched hitreg, not only with melee attacks.

 

So bottom line. Nice idea, but it might not work well at the start.

 

Thirdly, Roar:

 

The most immediate problem with Roar is obvious if you're freshly ranking Rhino: a 'Rank 1' Roar only lasts for 7 seconds, and takes about a full second or more to cast. The change we're making here is that Rhino's Roar will have a duration of 30 seconds regardless of your Frame Rank. For reference, currently a max-Rank, unmodded Roar lasts for 15 seconds. Note that, as before, the Duration can be enhanced through mods -- with the right mods a max-duration roar will last almost a minute and a half!

 

Sounds good, though i don't see many Rhino players use it. I guess they just don't value the team buff.

 

Lastly, Rhino Stomp:

 

As it stands, the Stasis portion of Rhino's Stomp has an 8 second flat-rate that is not affected by Duration mods. However, we are going to apply the benefits of Duration modding to this part of the ability. This means you can now mod for a longer or shorter Duration (depending on the mods used).

 

Sounds nice.

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iron skin need a change.....

 

even with max power strength the ability is useless what you get into even moderately high enemies.

 

even making it a 95% decrease in damage and having it be a continuous be be a significant improvement. right now in higher levels it dies in like one hit.

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Charge:

To all the proposed changes I'd add: make it launch you in the direction that you're targeting, not just vertically on the ground. Like post-rework excals slash dash but with no ping-pong effect. Also with the way that he is changed to use a lot of duration please don't make it scale with range. Keep it on duration as it is now, this way it will be easier to mod rhino.

Iron Skin:

Shame that it's not being looked at because it needs it. Possible ways to change it have been already mentioned here, some even many time, but regardless I'll allow myself to list some of them:

1) Snow globe treatment - a short period of invulnerability

2) Nulliefier treatment - iron skin can take maximum and minimum amounts of damage per hit, hence improving it's useability in higher levels and making it less op in low levels. This would be a great way to do it imo. It won't be op caus you still won't be able to stand in the open with a death squad of 30 lancers caus you'll die immedieatly but you won't die (at least not very fast) caus that one guy suddenly showed up from nowhere and he has insane level.

3) Channeling - each hit takes away a little energy out of your pool with the amount being determined by the base damage of a given unit. Of course in this case you should be able to stop it's effect by recasting. That would be a completely new approach, a very interesting one. It would pretty drastically change the way rhino is being built. I like this idea as well, it has similar pros to the previous one but allows for better tanking groups of enemies. (Taken from someone in this thread but I can't seem to find that post)

4) Armor - make armor affect it the way it affects health. This would give it a synergy with his augemnt for charge and will only make iron skin more usefull in higher levels. Cons? It would make it even more powerfull in low levels.

5) Aggro - csting iron skin makes enemies in a specific radius focus on you and ignore allies. This is more like an addition to one of the previously mentioned ways of changing it and should not be added alone as it will get every rhino killed the way iron skin works now.

6) Recasting - letting people end their iron skin when they want without use of augment would be a nice thing. Of course it would just simply end the effect, you need to cast it yet again to gain it back.

Mixing these ideas until you get something you like would also be great.

Roar:

Very good changes but it could use something like agro or a little crowd control. A few ideas that come to time out of which some were listed already in this thread:

1) Aggro - make it gather aggro from surrounding enemies. This would be great synergy with propose iron skin changes 1, 2 and 3 and would add upon rhinos role as support tank.

2) Knockback - as roar is casted enemies are knocked back by the power of rhinos voice and fear that it strucks within them.

3) Fear - roaring is scary, casting roar inflicts immobilising fear in nearby enemies which slows down their movement. Please take note, making it same to nekros 2nd ability is not what I mean here.

4) Debuff - lowering enemy damage output/armor.

Also it would really use a buff in casting time, to something like would be achieved with natural talent. As you mentioned it has a cast time of over a second during which you're vulnerable to everything nearby.

And yet again, mix all you want.

Stomp:

It has an issue like nyx's chaos - enemies that enter cast area after cast are completely unaffected and it can't be recast. So I'd suggest this:

1) Suspension area - enemies caught within the initial area in cast time are suspended in air, enemies that enter the area after cast are significantly slowed. It would work pretty good with high duration.

2) Finish him - players can perform ground finishers on enemies suspended in air (thanks LexaHeks)

Also maybe make it have a cooldown of like 5 seconds unaffected by duration. Upon next cast the previous suspension area vanishes. I don't suggest making it recastable like e.g. vaubans bastille as it would cause same problems as radial blind excal before LOS nerf.

And yet again cast time is rather long so maybe a little buff here.

Using both suggestions at a time is advised on my side here.

That's all for now folks, maybe I'll come back later and add something more. I'll be sure to write change log if I do.

Edited by Krak_Nihilus
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Would it be possible to make it castable in the air? If so Rhino would just plummet to the ground like the meteor !

bonus points if it creates a sort of Heavy Impact like Visual effect if you do that.

buttstomp.jpg

:)

Anybody else feel like Piercing Roar should be changed so it matches the duration of Roar?

a Puncture Status that long might actually be useful!

It'll make him into a farmer AND the next banshee spamming the ult to keep things flipping, rather than put a bunch in stasis and wait for power in use.

Then where does that go? LoS/Awareness checks for stomp, making it less useful as the TIME OUT button to revive people just to fix what we created with these improvements?

*sigh* this is very true.

minimum active time is a good enough solution for now. like 5 seconds.

- - - - -

Roar drawing aggro would be a nice feature, though, since no other frame fills that niche.

Absorb sets your Threat Level to the highest possible.

-snip-

+50% Damage is not anywhere near as good as you think it is.

it's one of the least effective Team Buffs that Warframes have. it doesn't disrupt Damage Types however, so that's a plus side.

also, 1200 Health(Ferrite Armor Health Type but w/e) as a buffer in front of your Health and Shields is not 'invincible'. it's okay. it's not even remotely close to as effective as you suggest it is.

Toxin is... not that useful.

hey now.

Toxin is for Damage.

the Toxin Status it applies is a fixed Percentage of the Enemies' Health.

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Can anybody tell me what's the point of a tank, if he can't aggro? Why should I invite a Rhino to my squad, if the odds of my squishy Nova getting shot are just about the same? I'd much rather invite a CC frame, or a support frame. Both would keep my squishy Novabutt intact.

 

DE, please for the love of Lotus, add an Aggro pull mechanic to Iron Skin. It would make me go from "Oh, a Rhino. What a waste of a squad slot" to "Sweet, a Rhino! I can remove Redirection now!". It will give him an ability to actually fulfill his role as a tank - he will be the protector of the team. 

 

Thank you for reading ♥

Edited by Neon_Angel
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Maybe armor buffs for Frost and Rhino? Excal has more armor then them now. Maybe bring them on par with Chroma, so 350?

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Stomp:

It has an issue like nyx's chaos - enemies that enter cast area after cast are completely unaffected and it can't be recast. So I'd suggest this:

1) Suspension area - enemies caught within the initial area in cast time are suspended in air, enemies that enter the area after cast are significantly slowed. It would work pretty good with high duration.

2) Finish him - players can perform ground finishers on enemies suspended in air (thanks LexaHeks)

Also maybe make it have a cooldown of like 5 seconds unaffected by duration. Upon next cast the previous suspension area vanishes. I don't suggest making it recastable like e.g. vaubans bastille as it would cause same problems as radial blind excal before LOS nerf.

And yet again cast time is rather long so maybe a little buff here.

Using both suggestions at a time is advised on my side here.

 

 

 

Hmm.

 

This threatens to step on a lot of other frames' toes here, but what if Stomp created a bubble around where Rhino cast it? Enemies that enter the bubble would be slowed, and any enemy gunfire that enters the bubble would be slowed as well (projectiles receive a speed debuff, and hitscan weapons would turn into projectiles). Stomp is supposed to create a localized area of warped timespace, after all.

 

As an added bonus, allies outside the bubble see all action within the bubble in slow-motion.

 

This change does, of course, infringe on Snowglobe, Cataclysm, and Bastille. As such, it would make Rhino very campy. So it's far from a perfect ability. But perhaps we can work toward a different solution that would make Rhino more interesting while giving him a unique defensive niche that emphasizes mobility and brute force, unlike Frost/Limbo/Vauban.

 

Though maybe an actual time stop/warp effect like this would best be left to an actual Time control frame.

 

BvLo9DE.png

Edited by Noble_Cactus

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Toxin is for Damage.

the Toxin Status it applies is a fixed Percentage of the Enemies' Health.

 

Ah, true. I always forget that Toxin actually scales quite nicely for this reason :x

 

I forgot about Absorb drawing aggro too, for some reason.

 

Being able to Stomp from midair could be kind of neat. Though it'd become an infinitely-better Dive Bomb, in that case (Zephyr needs another look at her kit too imo).

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Don't forget Iron Skin! That's the one that most needs a rework IMO, because it makes things a joke for newbies while barely doing anything at high levels.

The solution IMO lies with the Nullifier bubble damage calculations. Essentially, there would be a minimum and maximum rate Iron Skin could take damage. This would have huge applications at high levels, turning Rhino back into THE tank as he alone could survive tons of damage with no procs or knockdowns, but it also would mean newbies wouldn't get used to a giant health bar that lasts them entire missions with ease and therefore would better learn how to play for later.

Edited by (PS4)WiiConquered
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Hmm.. what if Iron Skin gave 4-5 seconds of complete invulnerability, like Frost's Snowglobe currently has? This wouldn't propel him into being an indestructible tank, which I feel would not be in the best interest of Rhino since it removed a large amount of challenge, but it would make it a situational ability that scales infinitely. It would be impractical to keep it active the entire time when dealing with high level content, but it could certainly help you if you know that a problem is about to occur (such as if you see a bombard coming or are about to get hit by a shockwave and need to be stagger-proof).

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I'm in love with these changes. That being said I cannot support snowglobe-style scaling on iron-skin enough, this ability really needs a little love. Also, his armor value could use a bit more beef, given that Excalibur, a light/medium swordsman just became more heavily armored than the supposed heaviest warframe.

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These changes are simple but effective, they may just make me take Rhino off the shelf for a go.

 

Also I'm liking the general idea about Rhino's abilities involving aggro and intimidation. Ideas worth exploring I'd say are:

 

- Rhino Charge lowering aggro for enemies flung back by it

- Iron Skin drawing aggro from nearby enemies

- Roar spreading aggro evenly to you allies (even the pod gets same degree of aggro as players)

- Stomp rendering affected enemies unaware/alert for stealth attack multipliers (if it doesn't already do this).

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I kind of wish Iron Skin would scale somewhat so it'd be just as effective in high-level content as it is in low-level content.

 

Since Channels seem to be a neat thing, maybe make Iron Skin more like, say, the armor mode in Crysis.

 

Slow energy drain when active, but energy is drained whenever you take a hit. This shouldn't scale with enemy adjusted damage, but maybe it could scale to base enemy damage. Allows a Rhino to charge out into the open to rescue a teammate or take fire, but means that they're not invincible.

 

I'd also suggest that maybe Rhino get a health buff to put him back into the Big Tough Guy realm. With enemy accuracy much higher, and damage avoidance dependent on speed, even giving Rhino 200/200 shields/health wouldn't seem like a problem and 150/150 shields/health would be helpful.

yes i could argee to that

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...

 

Lastly, Rhino Stomp:

 

As it stands, the Stasis portion of Rhino's Stomp has an 8 second flat-rate that is not affected by Duration mods. However, we are going to apply the benefits of Duration modding to this part of the ability. This means you can now mod for a longer or shorter Duration (depending on the mods used).

 

The big issue with stomp is that it couldn't be recasted if mobs were suspended in the air. WIll this be removed? (same with roar, miss allies, skipped out on damage buff)

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-snip-

better than Divebomb isn't setting the bar very high. :D

(get it? both Abilities would make you go from a high place down. i'm also serious though).

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WHO'S READY FOR SOME TENNO BOWLING!

 

we're going to be making non-lethal hits send the enemies flying instead!

WHO'S READY FOR SOME TENNO BOWLING :D

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