Feedback On Vulpine Mask Grind And Rapier [Megathread]

[Testostzzet]

I was going to just make this a post in the update thread but before I knew it I wound up making a wall of text, so hopefully this is in the right subforum. Anyway, I still tried to keep it as short as possible, so here we go:

 

First, I just want to make a point that I really respect DE and the work you guys put into the game, and that this update on the whole is really nice and has a lot of welcome changes.

 

But the Destreza...

 

I didn't have a problem with Nitain initially, but when things start costing five Nitain to research or build, it starts to get a little aggravating. For a long time I worked a job with twelve hour shifts, and I had a really hard time getting all the Nitain I needed to get almost any of the new things that were released after it was introduced. Right now, I'm between jobs, so I've built up a good store of the stuff, but for people who can't devote more than an hour every now and then to Warframe, this is really going to turn them off to a weapon that you guys yourselves admitted a lot of people were waiting for.

 

But okay, the build requirements are a little out there but it's manageable with some patience. What isn't manageable is the stance drop. Manic Bombards appear once, in a specific mission, and sometimes the tile they're in doesn't even spawn. Drekar Manic Bombards also only appear once, in a boss fight. They also have very robust drop tables for how little they appear and drop mods in the first place. On top of that, Vulpine Mask is a rare mod, giving it around a 2% chance to drop if i remember correctly.

 

The problem here is burnout. Melee combos are an integral part of enjoying a melee weapon and making melee more than spastic button mashing. The combos are simple in Warframe but they do make melee considerably more satisfying than it was before they existed. In fact, Melee 2.0 was what hooked me to the game in the first place. This stance is the only one of its kind, and it has a two percent chance to drop from an enemy that might appear once in a specific gametype.

 

Alternatively, you can try to get it by farming a boss fight that is already notorious for farming because of Equinox. This is really a shame because Tyl Regor is a fantastic character with great voice acting but feeling forced to interact with him and deal with the same lines over and over is going to make him become one of the most hated simply because people are going to get sick of it. You guys keep talking about removing the grind, and I get hopeful every time you do, but between the Nitain, the Argon, and the Stance, this is the biggest grind yet.

 

I know I can buy everything I need with plat, but my personal feeling on the subject is that that feels like cheating and will leave a bad taste in my mouth. I want to play the game; I want to earn the gear I use. I frequently and freely give DE money for the purpose of buying cosmetics, I don't want to feel like I have to to get something that actually effects gameplay on any level.

 

So for me to really get anything out of the Destreza, I'm going to have to farm until I probably won't even want to look at the game anymore. Which is a shame, because fencing has been a huge part of my life, Warframe is my favorite game, and I was really excited for this.

 

 

 

Which gets to my last point- bear with me- the animations.

 

I'm all about style, and cool graceful flippy movements, and I understand that this is a scifi game about space ninjas and they can do whatever the heck they want in ways normal humans never could, but... some of the movements featured in that video make the practitioner in me cringe. While yes, the rapier has always been able to cut, the way one effectively uses the geometry of the blade is a little different from how one would use (or can get away with using) a broader and differently-balanced weapon. 

 

I don't want to harp on it too much, because it really is a small thing and personal peeve, but the long, drawn out strikes, with the blade going all the way behind the frame, and the spinning, slashing draw-like cuts... don't make any sense from a purely mechanical standpoint. That is, even setting style aside, they don't really fit the nature or design of the weapon at all. The rapier is about manipulating angles and piercing through openings, and about keeping the blade quick, mobile, and ready to pierce or cut multiple times in rapid succession. It's about timing. It's what it was made for. Bringing the blade behind the back increases the recovery time tremendously, and spinning forces you to commit in a way from which there is little defensive capability, especially considering the blade is thinner and easier to bend than most.

 

I know melee in games is about style and few people will notice anyway, but Tenno are supposed to be "masters of blade and gun," and some of these animations really destroy that image to anybody who's studied. The animations themselves are beautiful, but the actual actions are those of an amateur. The Tenno clearly have not mastered this weapon; they simply swing it around like they would anything else. Finesse was the word of the day when this weapon was hyped and released, but the fact is it's just not there.

 

There are many graceful, flowery movements in fencing that could be looked at for inspiration, that involve stepping off the line of attack, crossing your legs and your stance, and incorporating the empty hand and your feet both to create openings and narrow your own body to defend yourself. That is finesse, and would give a flavor to the weapon and its stance that would really make it special... and maybe excuse the ridiculous drop rate of the thing.

 

 

 

That said, Mesa's quarta in the showcase video was just the right mix of style and technique, and looked lovely. So more of that! And as always, thank you for this truly unique game. I hope some of the things I've said are taken into consideration, if not for revision then for the future, and if you guys or other people are interested in hearing me ramble I'd be more than happy to make a thread to go more in-depth on the subject of weapon animations. You have something really special here and it'd be great if the finer points of melee got a little more attention.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Tavanaka

[Sabreracer]

Yes, those horrible DE guys, how could they!

 

And we must get new stance /new toy as soon as it enters the game, it is known!

 

After all, new stance /new melee weapon is crucial part of wf experience, it's more powerful then anything else in game and if you don't use it, your'e seriously crippled.

 

Not as if we have 10 00 of other weapons and stances to choose from, which are often good or even better. Not like melee is merely a niche by itself.

 

Forums, as usually filled with spoiled, loud children.

 

 

The issue as other have said is that it is an extremely low drop chance unless Baro brings it next time.  The weapon is mastery fodder without it.

 

So if I don't get it than all the effort that Geoff and the others put into creating this unique weapon is wasted because I refuse to farm something like this.

 

I don't need the stance to go to Draco and rank it to 30 and toss it.  What I would like to do is use it and enjoy it.  It took weeks to get Snapdragon via a natural drop from a common enemy, from a rare one that I can only get via running one tile set over and over just no.

 

And before anyone starts with the entitled bit, I have bought multiple PA packs to support this game so I do have plenty of Plat to just buy the pack but no.

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Sabreracer

[DeMonkey]

Yes, those horrible DE guys, how could they!

 

And we must get new stance /new toy as soon as it enters the game, it is known!

 

After all, new stance /new melee weapon is crucial part of wf experience, it's more powerful then anything else in game and if you don't use it, your'e seriously crippled.

 

Not as if we have 10 00 of other weapons and stances to choose from, which are often good or even better. Not like melee is merely a niche by itself.

 

Forums, as usually filled with spoiled, loud children.

 

Given that Vermillion Storm had a drop rate of 0.016% based on the math in this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/461290-give-up-farming-vermillion-storm-theres-literally-only-0016-chance/ we can extrapolate that Vermillion Storm and Vulpine Mask now have a drop rate of 0.0125%. 

 

Perfectly acceptable drop rate when you consider that the Manic Bombards only spawn 2 per mission on one node. Drekhar Manics aren't much better with a drop rate of 0.0208% (that's if they drop from them as someone has stated).

 

Don't try and White Knight when you don't even know what you're talking about.

Edited January 14, 2016 by DeMonkey

[CrazyCatLad]

Oh DE. *tsk tsk tsk*

 

(Assuming OP has been fact-checked.)

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

The problem is impatience and freebies not wanting to pay a dime.

 

You know, the game play people most gravitate towards facilitates setting things up to require endless spamming of a something until the desired prize is rewarded.  Yes, the drop rates are low.  No, you don't need the stance.  Yes, like with hour long endless and what not, you are expected to run the missions more than a few times or trade for what you want.  No, this is not cruel, unjust, or anything else.  F2P - you're either paying, or your kinda sorta content for someone else that does.

 

And just like Vermillion Storm, people will quiet down after a week or two, either because enough of the new stance has dropped and gotten around, or people stopped caring and went back to using the top tier melee if the rapier isn't.

Yet again, the issues aren't singularly paying for it or the drop chance. Its all of the problems put together.

1. Vermilion Storm, a mod that is infamously difficult to farm, is now even more difficult to obtain as Vulpine Mask was added to the same drop table, AND it has the same drop chance.

2. Because it has the same drop chance, which is less than one percent mind you if memory serves, the Rapier weapon class has zero stances readily available for it. Relatively speaking, every melee class in the game has at least one stance that is easy to obtain (other than Longswords arguably). Rapier just has this singular stance, and again it has a less than 1% drop chance.

3. The enemy that these two stances drop from only spawn either one at a time in Uranus Sabotage IF it spawns at all, or two at a time with a full squad during Tyl Regor's fight. The rarity of the enemies does not justify the obscene drop chance.

Being a F2P game does not exempt Warframe from criticism.

Edited January 14, 2016 by DawnoftheWhiteFury

[Tesseract7777]

 

I don't want it's drop chance increased, I want it moved. Tyl Regor's Boss Fight has been run enough by the community. Can we put it anywhere else where it won't harm the player base that farms for things determinedly? It's just how you reach it that needs to be both time consuming, difficult, but not always ending in a player quitting the game. 

People assume that F2P is an excuse, it is not. It should be an incentive to play. What sounds better? "It's got a 0.016 chance to drop from an enemy that drops on one mission." or "It's got a 0.0.16% to drop, but you can play a variety of missions to earn it, and those missions have other rewards so you may get it while going for something else!"

In addition, another big thing a lot of people aren't really talking about... We've done this boss fight a lot for another super rare mod on this one mob. Why do we have to run the same mission so many of us have done all over again instead of spreading out the rare mods to earn? There isn't a shortage of enemies to place it upon right now, why double up on this single hard to get enemy?

 

 

Very well put, the decision seems baffling to me. I wasn't really expecting anything less than it to be a rare drop, but why from the enemy that already drops Vermillion Storm? I don't really understand the choice... 

Edited January 14, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[-Athanasius-]

Better spend some time farming platinum and buying the bundle then to farm freaking Manic Bombard lol, seems like they didn't even give us a choice to choose between farming and buying...

 

Typical... ROFL

[PublikDomain]

Out of curiosity, can drek. manic bombards be sleeped? If so get 4 Ivara with Covert Lethality and it shouldn't be that bad.

 

Math on another thread puts the numbers you need to kill around 4000-13000 to get a 50-90% chance. With an Ivara team you could do that 5x faster. Still what, 500-1600 Tyl runs? Gonna run Draco a few times and bin the weapon, after I grind out 1600 plastids and some argon.

Edited January 14, 2016 by PublikDomain

[321agemo]

I have fun farming sentients for vr. Manics and manics bombard that only spawn against tyl regor? Naaaahhhhh. Equinox farming was good enough for me.

Plus i just cleared all my stalker marks...

[NinthAria]

As someone who dabbled in fencing for a bit as well, I share in your disappointment. I love the theatrics and such in action games, but rapiers (or even other fencing weapons like sabres) are precision instruments first and foremost, with the whole point being that you can strike an opening swiftly and save yourself the risk (and physical effort) of a heavier hacking or slashing motion.

 

I mean, I'll probably get over it. But it's the small things like that that really bug me sometimes.

[PrVonTuckIII]

Time to go start accumulating plat to buy the set.

[(PSN)A_SimpleName]

InB4Baro6months?

 

*Looking at you Vermilion Storm*

[Chaox23]

Its a good thing I earned the plat to get the bundle beforehand because this really is ridiculous. When Ack&Brunt and Final Harbinger came out, I had to farm pure Tyl Regor for 2 days straight before I finally got the uncommon stance. During the whole time farming, not a single Vermillion Storm dropped and I just gave up on it. Baro Ki Teer ended up selling it before I even had a chance to see it drop. I have a feeling that Baro is going to end up selling this in a couple of months or so. Another problem is that even with the rarity of the stance its sold in a bundle which means its value wouldnt even be able to go above the cost of the bundle. I hope this recurring trend stops with this.

[Zakque]

Thanks, Siralextraffo. I appreciate the tip.

[IceColdHawk]

Given that Vermillion Storm had a drop rate of 0.016% based on the math in this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/461290-give-up-farming-vermillion-storm-theres-literally-only-0016-chance/ we can extrapolate that Vermillion Storm and Vulpine Mask now have a drop rate of 0.0125%. 

 

Perfectly acceptable drop rate when you consider that the Manic Bombards only spawn 2 per mission on one node. Drekhar Manics aren't much better with a drop rate of 0.0208%.

 

Don't try and White Knight when you don't even know what you're talking about.

^

This.

Also, i'd like to know if the new stance is transmutable...i guess not since vermillion storm isn't transmutable too.

[Arkezuli]

I'm just laughing mentally here, because I completely agree with everything you said... despite the fact that I know next to nothing about actual, real-life fencing practices.

 

 

The animations shown for that weapon in the Video were anything /but/ graceful, or even doable with an actual rapier.

As a huge fan of classy weapons, You could imagine I might be a bit... uh... dead-sea-ish... right now.

Edited January 14, 2016 by -Cen.Silver-

[DeMonkey]

Still what, 500-1600 Tyl runs? 

 

That has got to be one of the scariest things I've ever read... Horror books, pfft. Random ''I'm pregnant prank'' from an ex gf, pfft. The thought of 500-1600 more Tyl Regor runs though...

 

Oh look, I've just gone and reinstalled Skyrim again.

Edited January 14, 2016 by DeMonkey

[nickelshark]

I do wish they would release a more common stance along side these super rare stances. A weapon w/o a stance can be fun but, it's kinda hard for me to go back and pick it up again. What generally happens with me is I level it and never use it again since I don't have the stance. This happened with the mios and lancera with me and it might happen again with the rapier.

[SvZz]

I agree, noting else I could really add to this post lol. I feel like buying the finesse pack to, I mean it's a good deal of worth in it. 80p booster, 20p potato, weapon slot with mod stance and weapon for 220p.. I'm split between avoid RNG or save plats, DE really wanted players to buy this for some reason.

[ThorienKELL]

Who is the spoiled one here? Us speaking about a legitimate problem, or you passively aggressively putting on a facade of mental superiority?

Thorien pls.

 

Legitimate problem exists only in your heads gentlemen. Every problem that will go away by itself in a week or two time is no problem at all. I have all good stances in game and I'm not even trying that hard. I don't even using melee. I am bit annoyed because this is not the first time I've seen this type of rant on forums, and it won't certainly be the last. You all know what free to play means, either you have patience or you have platinum. 

 

To make whole thing even more ridiculous - new stance by what I've have seen is not even that good in a first place .

[Kaotyke]

The place where it drops... annoying, but nothing I will make a fuss over.

 

I'm already feeling the effects of burn out, I wont do such disservise to myself and farm the stance like a madman. I will just add "Visit Tyl Regor from time to time" to my whim list.

[DeMonkey]

^

This.

Also, i'd like to know if the new stance is transmutable...i guess not since vermillion storm isn't transmutable too.

 

It is

Edited January 14, 2016 by DeMonkey

[IceColdHawk]

It is

Thanks mate, now i'm at least able to sleep peacefully.

[Guren26444]

This is actually better than the acquiring overpriced stance mod on trading

Edited January 14, 2016 by Guren26444

[DawnoftheWhiteFury]

Legitimate problem exists only in your heads gentlemen.

Lol wut. I also fail to see how this is a rant, when I and several others have presented evidence to support the argument. All you have done is present analytical arguments in a passive aggressive manner with a tone that suggests a strong sense of self-superiority. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by DawnoftheWhiteFury