HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Ciaus]

Link to the Reddit thread below:
 

Spoiler

 

Link to player discussion thread (over 130 pages) below:
 

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Link to Devstream #85 overview compiled expediently by @AM-Bunny below:
 

Spoiler

 

All this has been compiled wonderfully in the OP of @NativeKiller. However I would like to break down this response and state why I think it is completely unacceptable and should not be taken as last word on this decision. 

1) Precedent, DE has been willing to make changes in the past that have made large effort / investment null. Including even recent riven disposition changes, and Baro bringing back event mods, and so on. Even resource costs have been changed in the past. 

2) The research cost is still unreasonable, people having gone to great effort does not change that. Locking every future and current clan out of this research without an insane amount of time sinking because some clans were able to is still not "fair" or healthy for the game. The problem is still there and keeping it isn't fair, especially with the possibility of point 3.

3) Reward and acknowledge the effort, as opposed to punishing the rest of the community. Yes, some clans have put in insane effort for the Hema, as a result of the mistake on DE's part. Change the cost to something reasonable, but acknowledge the effort through some measure like a clan trophy for those who completed the requirements before cost changes. Having a golden exclusive mutagen mass statue would be big bragging rights for a clan, or even give a free cosmetic to every clan member that has contributed in clans which have completed the research. Furthermore for these clans the extra cost can be refunded to clan vault, to cover future mutagen costs (a hundred times over >.>). 

4) This response from Steve splits the community to argue costs among themselves. This attempts to divert the discussion between the clans who have and haven't done it, on the basis of fairness, instead of what DE should do to alleviate the extreme situation they have caused for clans (people paying plat for entrance fees, mass kickings and downsizings, etc). 

5) TAKING RESPONSIBILITY. The Hema costs were a mistake. Whether intended or not. Clans have become much more cutthroat, lost much of their social aspect, and the largest Pay To Win feature the game has seen (Ninjas play free?) has slipped by under the holiday radar. DE needs to acknowledge the damage this has done to social clans and clans aimed at helping out newer players / those with less active rosters / solo clans that up until now could reasonably compete. DE also needs to remedy this. 

The precedent of these costs cannot be allowed to stay set, a better course for the game needs to be made for 2017. The response is unacceptable, and the Hema costs are unacceptable. Fixing them (and rewarding the clans that did this monumental effort) is a MUST for DE to show they are in touch with the community and are able to set a direction worth following for the year ahead. 

EDIT TWO AND THREE:
Sadly destroyed in a horrible post editing spree of my own doing. Oops.

EDIT FOUR AND FIVE:
DE has suggested that mutagen may drop in packs of two or three now. Or the droprate would be increased.

What does this change:

• It reduces the grind time, assuming you are farming somewhat optimally (ie: On Derelict AND ONLY Derelict).

What does this NOT change?

• The extremely boring nature of the grind.
• The tilesets on which you can viably find mutagen (Eris will still NOT be an option with either doubled droprate or amount).
• Their single outlier cost of the Hema. It should never have been so far out of line with other costs.

What damage does this do?

• All other clan research becomes comparatively cheaper now, when the pricing was quite fair for intermediate players before. 
• Community damage remains. This cost is still insane for less than full clans. It needed a 10x reduction, not a 2x easier to farm, to prevent the destruction of social clans that is still ongoing. 
• Shows DE is going to stand by this decision, with reasoning they have never followed in the past with any nerf or price change they have used. 
• Addressing this so late after dropping the Hema during holiday period, and then not putting in an adequate, high effort fix (like I outlined in point 3) leaves me very sour. It's hard not to jump to conclusions. 

In short: No DE. Not good enough. 

EDIT SIX:
No change, to droprates, amounts, Hema cost or anything mentioned in Update 19.6. 
Players do notice this, I know myself and many others are not comfortable to recommend the game, or that anyone spend, in a situation where this is being disregarded even after coming up on Devstream. 

EDIT SEVEN:
Hema costs are to be discussed in Devstream 86 as per @[DE]Taylor's comment in the update 19.7.0 thread. 

Spoiler

 

EDIT EIGHT:
As of the Devstream 86, nochanges will be made to anything. Not drops of mutagen or hema cost. It rains mutagen on Derelict.
 

Spoiler

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EDIT NINE:
A post I made in @Jackviator's thread on resources
 

Spoiler

 

here are many many ways they could repair this situation somewhat effectively. 
Some of which you astutely point out.

But I think the issue is that they are not interested in changing this. Irrespective of player response and reasoning, there seems to be an attitude of no backing down on this, or making any concession. The atrocious way it was handled on Dev Stream 86 (RAINING. I have a lot of words for that and none of them are child-friendly) indicates this unfortunately. 
DE was doing very well, arguably the most successful F2P out currently, BEFORE this decision. Understanding their own monetization model is IMPOSSIBLE without them also understanding the mindset of a player within the game, and I think that disconnect has now become apparent. 
On PRINCIPLE, I want to EARN every ingame item I can. Something resource and time based (as opposed to pure RNG like mod drops) like Clan Research especially. I spend plat on cosmetics regularly. The more I play in a month, the more inclined I am to buy things to make my screen look pretty. The more I play the more I spend on forma, catalysts and trade. 
In trying to force someone like me to pay for a WEAPON or FRAME, I get pushed away. I can. I have the plat there right now. But I won't. Earning things in a reasonable manner is an ingame milestone and significant piece of gameplay for me. It took me like 40 runs of that Sexy Grineer Science-Brawler to get all of Equinox, but that is almost reasonable to do so solo in a day or two, and can be done with any decent weapon or frame. And I know after about a day I'll very likely have all the parts. It's a lot of game time, arguably a worse piece of grind in the game, but not out the water. And can be done while playing the game and with some modicum of variety. Clearly a far far cry from that ODD nekros hydroid speedva only 1 frame even attacking for 20+ hours s***. 
Some players will never, ever be happy to spend on certain things that feel like ingame progression. These players are still a huge part of the Warframe economy and spending system however, and DE just illustrated they don't yet acknowledge or understand that. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Ciaus
DEVSTREAM for 19.7.0

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

The only way to make a damage bigger, is to not show up and say "I was wrong. I sincerely apologize".

The worse thing Hema brought is plat fees to join Dojo, which is bad not only for the in-game economy, but it's quite toxic for the Community

[Rhekemi]

9 minutes ago, Ciaus said:

Furthermore for these clans the extra cost can be refunded to clan vault, to cover future mutagen costs (a hundred times over >.>). 

I like this suggestion a lot. If the costs were reduced by half, half the original cost could be refunded to those clans' vaults. That said, players who were paid to join and donate mutagen are out of luck, and will have to enjoy their platinum. (DE has always told us those kinds of trades are not supported by the system.)

Aside from what I said in NativeKiller's thread (same as the subreddit thread), I was disappointed to hear Steve's response. I know they can do better, and hope it's an off-the-cuff remark based on initial thoughts on the data.

I still think there's time to address it properly, and I still think threads like this will go a long way to illustrate DE's need to address it.

[TigerBoyZ01]

The even bigger issue is that you can buy it from the Market. DE basically laughs at our faces, asking to either bend over and take it, or waste our lives for a weapon that I heard isn't even that special or game-changing.

[Hemmo67]

again with this?

[N64Gamefreak]

16 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

again with this?

It's still a problem.

[LuckyCharm]

more to the point.. why are they worried about wasting peoples time who already grinded for it.. i spent many many hours farming events all through warframes life and with the event mods and weapons being rereleased for practically no effort with no sorry or compensation why is this weapon the one they back out and say woah not touching that about. its not like its a founders thing

[Ciaus]

25 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

again with this?

Yes.

Because when the next clan research depends on the hema as a pre-requisite and costs 2K Neurodes for a ghost clan I don't want to be asking the question:

26 minutes ago, Hemmo67 said:

again with this?

Also this is my breakdown of Steve's response, it's new information that changes the situation. You are free to not open the thread. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

hahahaha jokes on DE. I don't grind for days and hours for 1 MR fodder weapon   lol GG DE

 Its really simple tho,(this game has become casual IMO)  stop leaving feed back and buying plat. Thier attitude will change. As with any business, when you dont have customers you dont have a business. And done.

so i log in, log out ✌

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Rhekemi]

3 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

again with this?

The thread is a response to Steve's initial (and first public) discussion of the community's concerns about Hema research.

The thread is also respectful and constructive. Hopefully responses stay that way, too.

3 hours ago, LuckyCharm said:

more to the point.. why are they worried about wasting peoples time who already grinded for it.. i spent many many hours farming events all through warframes life and with the event mods and weapons being rereleased for practically no effort with no sorry or compensation why is this weapon the one they back out and say woah not touching that about. its not like its a founders thing

That's actually a fair point.

 

[ograzzt]

1. We made a mistake.

2. We didn't fix it fast enough.

3. Solution: do nothing anyway because few clans had stockpiles and big number of active players (c) DE logic, 2016-2017.

[Xzorn]

Seems to me there have always been two sides to this. The players who had a full clan and whom didn't struggle with the cost and those two don't have a full clan in which the cost was totally unreasonable.

I've not seen one middle ground person who was like "Yea, it sucked but I went out and farmed the 5k mutagen anyways."

....So who are these people who farmed like crazy and "earned it"?

It was either an hour or two of your time or you never bothered because the cost was ridiculous.

Sure it's not about the plat purchases over the time players invested?

 

[UvBenServed]

5 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I've not seen one middle ground person who was like "Yea, it sucked but I went out and farmed the 5k mutagen anyways."

....So who are these people who farmed like crazy and "earned it"?

Hi

[xRufus7x]

1 hour ago, TigerBoyZ01 said:

The even bigger issue is that you can buy it from the Market. DE basically laughs at our faces, asking to either bend over and take it, or waste our lives for a weapon that I heard isn't even that special or game-changing.

Bend over and take what exactly, the loss of a few hundred mastery points? Just don't farm it if you don't want to God knows Im not. DE isn't holding a gun to your head. The only thing DE is laughing at is your utter lack of patience and self control.

[[DE]Momaw]

29 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I've not seen one middle ground person who was like "Yea, it sucked but I went out and farmed the 5k mutagen anyways."

We are a 4-member ghost clan, and we went out and farmed the samples anyway.

 

40 minutes ago, ograzzt said:

few clans had stockpiles

So, this is something I have a problem with. Warframe players are very very used to "pre grind". They put in time playing, they get all this material and resources laying around, and then when something new comes out they expect to have enough to just get it instantly. What is so bad about having to earn things AFTER they arrive instead of BEFORE? Especially here where is no time limit. Even if the next infested clan tech needs the Hema (which I doubt), how many months away is that?  If people put half as much effort into just getting the mutagen samples as they do into complaining about the mutagen samples, they'll have the gun researched in plenty of time before anything that requires it arrives (which, again, I doubt).

Which isn't to say that I think this situation is perfect. The core problem is that DE made a very reasonable assumption about how much the gun should cost based on how much of its resource people had available, but they didn't consider how that would scale to clans. Clans that are often full of "dead wood", old players that aren't actually contributing anything, or clans that are simply not full for their tier size.  500 mutagen samples per head for an active, full clan is very reasonable. But if your clan is only half full then suddenly the cost is 1000 per head, and if only half your people are active players, well.

The Hema's raises questions about the very concept of clan research and how much participation and activity should be ASSUMED to be taking place.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Momaw

[bubbabenali]

Conveniently he forgot to include the part where Steve mentioned how he thinks about some ways to get samples by other means than powerfarming the derilict...

[Xebov]

34 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I've not seen one middle ground person who was like "Yea, it sucked but I went out and farmed the 5k mutagen anyways.

From a logical point of view why should you? Ppl that farmed it have no reason to complain because they already got it.

 

The 3 most active ppl from my Ghost Clan (including me) went out to farm it after one of us got a Resource Drop Booster as login reward and we had Recource Boosters for Kuva anyways. Had some fun rounds at the Derelict. Overall the 5k where alot, in the end we got it.

[UvBenServed]

10 minutes ago, Momaw said:

We are a 4-member ghost clan, and we went out and farmed the samples anyway.

 

Hypothetically, if DE does make the Hema research easier to farm for, how would you and your clan mates feel about some sort of compensation?

Personally, I don't really care whether or not I get any mutagen samples refunded. But I'm curious what others think about this.

[-_Highlander_-]

5K .. and getting only 1 mutagen sample during Akkad :( RIP me 

that will take me around 5k run Thanks alloty Devs iam so happy with this .. 

 

only if you could see my face atm 

[Tyrian3k]

I'll accept the cost if 2 of DE staff farm 5000 samples together without any boosters. That's the equivalent of 200 people actively farming in a Moon Clan, which is way more activity than I expect in any Moon Clan.

Just because a few people accept something (or simply had tons of stockpiles that were enough), that doesn't mean that it's okay to stay that way.

[bubbabenali]

3 minutes ago, UvBenServed said:

Hypothetically, if DE does make the Hema research easier to farm for, how would you and your clan mates feel about some sort of compensation?

Personally, I don't really care whether or not I get any mutagen samples refunded. But I'm curious what others think about this.

Why compensate, or change the cost?

How about a daily side quest by (I forgot the name of the infested dude behind the door)

An infested excavation, where you get 10 samples for each 100 cryotic you dig up.

[[DE]Momaw]

16 minutes ago, GameKingMike334 said:

5K .. and getting only 1 mutagen sample during Akkad :( RIP me 

Play ODD, not Akkad. Bring a Nekros. Hundred samples per hour per player.

 

17 minutes ago, UvBenServed said:

Hypothetically, if DE does make the Hema research easier to farm for, how would you and your clan mates feel about some sort of compensation?

At this point, reducing the cost significantly on the Hema would be a slap in the face to everybody that just buckled down and Got It Done.  Having researched the Hema is kind of a badge of honor  so if they did reduce the cost significantly then there needs to be something you can show off. I don't want the materials back because there's nothing worthwhile to use them on, and I don't want a clan trophy because nobody will ever see it or care about it. Maybe a retextured version of an Infested cosmetic?

But I really really think people are just overreacting.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Momaw

[Tyrian3k]

6 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Play ODD, not Akkad. Bring a Nekros. Hundred samples per hour per player.

 

At this point, reducing the cost significantly on the Hema would be a slap in the face to everybody that just buckled down and Got It Done.  Having researched the Hema is kind of a badge of honor  so if they did reduce the cost significantly then there needs to be something you can show off. I don't want the materials back because there's nothing worthwhile to use them on, and I don't want a clan trophy because nobody will ever see it or care about it. Maybe a retextured version of an Infested cosmetic?

But I really really think people are just overreacting.

Oh, sure, and I want a Flux Rifle badge of honor because they broke it with Damage 2.0 and made the effort I put into it worthless.

And again, I got 235 samples from 60 waves ODD with a chance booster, Pilfering Hydroid and Nekros, so without a booster in my 2-man ghost clan that only about 1200 waves od mindless ODD farming.

[Myscho]

Why not increasing drop chance and rate ? Instead its ok, 5 clans have it researched, we dont need to change it. Sometimes their logic amazes me

Edited January 2, 2017 by Myscho

[-_Highlander_-]

14 minutes ago, Momaw said:

Play ODD, not Akkad. Bring a Nekros. Hundred samples per hour per player.

 

ill give it an go :) thanks for the advice +1 for you

Happy new year to you