The Second Stream Podcast: Cyst, Hema resource cost, Damage 3.0, & Special Guest [DE]Steve!

[SnuggleBuckets]

I often have difficulty meeting resource requirements to crafting different gear, but I still think there should be some reasonable way for investments in time, effort and resources to matter, and it's the old universal way of having better gear costing more and weaker gear costing less. It's okay for there to be clearly better weapons in the game, they should just be harder to get (Hema is not the best or even better than many others).
If the devs want to make clan tech weapons take more time to build, then adopt the old pigment logic from colours in the Tenno lab, that when you start research on new gear, they require some new parts that only start dropping once you started the project, from some certain enemies or planets.
Another method would be harder, but maybe more fun and interactive. Implement a method of hiring researchers (NPCs you'd see wandering around your labs). They could have CVs, different specialities that affect how long it takes for them to finish their research on a project, different rates depending upon how good they were at their job and the size of the project, maybe implement an occasional mission, that the researcher would on some point in the development cycle require certain parts or resources from the field and task you with obtaining them.

But if the Dojo would be changed to require more time and effort in the research, then there needs to be a clear difference in tech tiers with the regular market gear and the stuff you can only obtain from research. Stuff you need to research needs to be better, the investment needs to pay off, all that effort needs to feel worth it for the players.
I don't see how something like the Hema even comes close to that ideal.
Oh, and the costs, and time, and RNG of special parts should still be within reasonable limits, it will after all take more time now by definition.

Damage 3.0 could potentially be a step in the right direction, if enemy scaling is taken away from the exponential growth it currently has into a steady increase in difficulty, you can start off enemies with slightly higher stats than they currently have. Just don't go overboard and assume every newcomer has a serration or pressure point mod undamaged and the endo and credits to immediately rank them to max. My biggest concern originally with the rumour of removing the mods, and tinkering with multishot mods, was that, currently, multishot mods are a way to make many bullet hoses viable compared to something like the many great shotguns or special launchers. There is an issue with ammo economy and the way many automatic weapons just can't keep up with something that can quickly dish out a lot of damage in one shot. One shot equalling that one ammo, and many of those weapons having good ammo reserves, or surviving with one unranked ammo mutation mod, but anything like a continuous beam, or a weapon spraying dozens of bullets per second, will quickly run out of ammo, and not deal as much damage in all of those shots combined.

My solution would be to implement a proportional way of handling the many pickups and maybe even some damage dealt. Allow pickups to give a proportion of the needed resource, instead of a flat quantity (or "clips" instead of X amount of ammo, so weapons with large magazines/clips can keep up), tweak some mechanics and even some abilities of warframes to deal out a proportion of damage, a % off of enemy health for example. This could also maybe help with concerns about player power scaling with enemies. But always keep in mind that this is a coop/solo game where combat is about having fun, not a multiplayer competitive game where everything needs to be balanced and equalized, levelling everything to the same playing field.
I do get the desire to keep many weaker weapons relevant and still fun compared with everything else in the market, and that's fine, sometimes it's good too to have stepping stones for later gear, but if less used weaker gear is to be changed for the better, it should not come at the expense of all the other existing fun gear.

[Amazerath]

What is your first impression of a Nullifier weak point that would require heavy direct damage to destroy?

It's not that I don't like the initiative to allow for a more skillful approach to certain obstacles. It's just that overall going inside the bubble still seems like a better option. That is, of course, assuming the weak point will be tricky to hit even with a precision weapon. If hitting the weak point takes longer then using a spin melee attack or whatever, then people won't bother. (to be fair, spin melee also requires a certain level of skill).

There are a few exceptions however. For example, the weak point will probably be incredibly useful in sortie missions that are "sniper only". And maybe certain explosive weapons will also have an easier time dealing with Nullifiers once this has been implemented. But aside from that, my initial impression is that the weak spot will only be a viable choice in some very specific situations.

[taiiat]

all Clantech should have relevant costs. enough so that there's something for Clans to do.
however Gameplay methods of achieving these goals can be made more diverse than playing one of select few Missions and strictly relying on random Resources from Enemies.

ex.

On 12/23/2016 at 3:54 AM, taiiat said:

interesting alternative middlegrounds:

• introduce 'Infested Plants' (not actual Plants, just scannable map objects) which award some Mutagen Samples.
  • Common/Uncommon/Rare is fine, a few types of Infested growths in Infested Missions that can be scanned for a few Mutagen Samples. ideally in any naturally Infested Missions, perhaps as well as Invasions.

 

• implement the crafting of parts dropped from Juggernauts (Pherliac Pod parts) in a sort of transmogrification process to turn into Mutagen Samples.
• three ways that could work(or be mixed together)
  • 4 Foundry craft types that will award Mutagen Samples upon completion appropriate for their Rarity vs the other parts.
  • new craft that uses all 4 parts to create moderate sum of Mutagen Samples
  • repeatable Clantech Research that uses any and all of the 4 parts to create Mutagen Samples in batches that Clans can work together to create.
    • i.e. each Part will generate some Mutagen Sample(s) on it's own, putting more parts in at a time nets more Mutagen Samples - with bonuses the closer to equal the number of Parts are.
    • perhaps the longer it 'brews' (Players put Parts in for) - i.e. the more used at once - the larger the output, encouraging larger batches.

a specifically located Weakpoint to collapse the Nullifier Shield substantially defeats the purpose of the Enemy.
adjusting the current Formula by Category, allowing Shotguns to have a higher upper Damage Threshold, Explosive Weapons a higher upper Damage Threshold, and Sniper Rifles/Bows and Et Cetera higher still, while most Weapons as current - evens out the Shots & time to collapse to very close to one another, making the Shield an equal impediment to all Weapons.

 

ideally no, a third try shouldn't only deal with the way Enemies exist, but also Mods to some degree.
scaling back most Damage Mods and actually balancing out their bonuses vs each other to be balanced rather than powercreep, would go a long way to making Players make choices for Mods they Equip. the system just has to actually support forcing Players to make choices, rather than multiply some stats enough to compensate for all gripes.
Enemies and Damage Types is important too, in the way Damage Types relate to Enemies and how their Health Types function. so that Damage Types all have some use, but are not a universal answer to Enemies. as well as the way that their defenses interact with Player Damage - ala mainly Armor - should be something affectable without specific Equipment to do so. and to not have Armor Ignore freely available again - as that makes Damage Systems fall apart.

ala: 

 

[CroqueMortTime]

1. What's your view on the contagious Warframe Cyst?

About that, I think the virus contamination stuff is a fun idea, and actually let newer player have a new pet early in game (compared to completing TGG + farming nidus). But the problem with that is people don't really choose to get it and are forced to deal with it in a rather unsavory way... (and therefor don't like it)

The "cure" that is coming is a good direction though a "vaccination" may have been better ...

 

[Sziklamester]

For a complex damage 3.0 need to rebalance the mods and add more slots and fix those slots. Separate them into different categories then the modding would be simplier because anyway your build can just contain 4 damage 4 utility and 4 defensive mods. It is up to you guys what mods which category should go but I am not a fan of removing the pure damage.

If you removing the pure damage mods and fixing the scaling of enemies then our weapons needs that extra damage what lost due to the removal of pure damage mods. The same need to happen with the frames and slots then you can make a huge variety for build and the more slot with less powerful mods can be more interesting. 

My other opinion about but I know I am more radical in this case but If I can choose between modding system and a skill tree system I would like go with the modding system.

The modding system have flaws and no really matter what mods you make some always be stronger or better choice than others and that makes the current mod mandatory. In this case the damage output and armor scaling makes the pure damage mods must have in every build which is often boring but some person like to see a high damage output.

You need just decide how you want the coop, the teamplay, how you think the game should be more casual friendly or skill based then make the complete game skill based where the lesser talented peoples will burn out.

My bet a smarter and more tactical AI would be and less sponge bob mobs with silly behaviour. Their difficulity is only mean their damage output and oneshot kills but this is almost the same how we kill mobs. I know this supposed to be a hordeshooter with a bare lore but the game could be potentially more interesting.

Weaker weapons needs some buff and balance and some mechanic which make them more fun or interesting to use.  

[ENGINEEEEER]

My opinion on the proposed damage 3.0 is the following:

-Looking at enemies is great and should have been done long ago. 

-Current scaling sucks as it's just damage sponging not reactive to how you play. 

-Mandatory mods are still limiting. If you dont want to get rid of the mod, make a damage slot that is separate from our 8 slots. But for real we'd be fine with equivalent endo. Everyone has a use for it. 

-A balancing pass is needed on all weapons. So many are left behind. Even out damage and work on mechanics. The mechanics of the newest prime weapons were awesome. 

[Sasquatchias]

1. View on Cysts - Not so bad

Not so bad really, though admittedly this is after the information about there being a cure for it.

2. Difficulty with Resource Costs - Sometimes

The only times I ever have difficulty with Resource costs is when it comes to Mutagen Mass, Cryotic, and Argon. Admittedly the Cryotic is because I despise Excavation as a gamemode and very rarely play it for that reason.

3. Time / Resource Investment - Some Weapons should

I believe certain tiers of Weapons should indeed have a large resource investment tied into their costs, but I think adding in more time in addition is a poor decision since we still have to wait either half a day or a full day's worth of time for them to craft, not even counting the 3 day minimum for Clan Research Weapons.

4. Nullifier Weak Point - Love it

Absolutely love it, Nullifiers for too long have been shafting down Bows, Snipers, and other low firerate weapons even more than they already were.

5. What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods? - Not Sure

Before casting judgement I want more information on what is going to be done, but I do feel it needs to be said that at least some work needs to be put into balancing out Mods, or reworking them somewhat to make Modding out a weapon much better. 

For example with the reveal of "Progression" Mods like Serration being kept in I think the values of said Mods should still be toned down to more reasonable and balance-able levels, and then maybe given their own special slot or something so as to allow players more freedom for Modding out their weapons since they will ALWAYS be required for any amount of content. 

And when modding Warframes as well I think this sort of thing should also be taken into consideration as in every build there will always be Redirection or Vitality, which means you automatically strike out two slots due to them taking up that space.

 

The other thing I think needs to be taken into consideration when talking about revamping and refreshing enemies is how to stop players from cheesing them as well - Enemy Cheese is an incredibly annoying thing to fight against (Bombards with their U-Turning Rockets being a big example, Nullifiers taking the cake on their own), but at the same time Player Cheese also needs to be accounted for as you literally have players running around constantly CC'ing a room full of enemies into uselessness whilst packing enough damage to obliterate anything that isn't from a high level sortie in a single shot.

New enemy mechanics are nice but mean nothing if that Loki running around invisible can disarm them, their buddies, and the baddies in the next room over over and over again into non-threats.

[Simmml]

The options regarding resource requirements are a joke, right? Right? All the research has been ALMOST fine. ALMOST! Except when DE goes waaaaaay overboard. Like they did with the initial Vauban cost. WHICH THEY REDUCED. Or the Hema cost. WHICH THEY INEXPLICABLY DON'T REDUCE!? Regarding stockpiles... Why do you think I have stockpiles? Becasue I play the damn game. So by saying 'mimimi you have stockpiles' you suggest that I should quit playing your game? Only have a peek in once in a while? That's really poor. Before ppl hate on me: I love the game I play it almost every day :/ Do you want to know what you do by increasing drop rates? You F*** over all the other BALANCED resource costs. That's a great solution *drips with sarcasm* I love this game and some of your choices make my heart bleed and shatter.

Do you want to know what this means to me? I have a ghost clan with rl friends. I will NOT kick them from OUR clan because they just can't carry their own weight. and I will NOT leave my clan. I invested into an emblem and a dojo and all the research prior. This is a fist to my face. Insulting and deeply hurting

Edited January 9, 2017 by Simmml
Added an argument

[Skaleek]

AW rewards are garbage. I've created thread upon thread asking for good rewards from AW only to get hijacked by people saying "i hate AW".

[V45H]

for damage 3.0 i still want to get rid of mandatory mods that just add straight base damage scale the weapon Damage with the weapon level and then make the rest of the changes to the enemys would be fine if thats what you mean by that

[Mcl_Blue]

5. What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?

Not thrilled.

I mean, I'm all for getting better enemies, but I was excited about the idea of not having the dreaded "mandatory" damage mods anymore, and the kind of variety that extra space could potentially bring to builds.

But hey, we're supposedly getting better enemies, which is nice.

[Mak_Gohae]

1- Gimme more cyst! Loved it. Found silly that people flipped out over their fashion being messed up for a couple of weeks.

2- Some weapons, i dont farm all mats equally. But when this happens i go on to farm them. No issue.

3- Some weapons have big mat reqs is 100% fine. There should be some weapons like this.

4- slow fire rate weapons dont need help to take nullies down because you have 2 other options. All this does is make it so people do nothing but use the main weapon over and over without getting off them. The game tells you that Tenno learned the way of the warframe, gun, and blade so i think you should ADD more enemies that require you to switch weapons.

5- need more info.

[-Zr-Scroll]

3. Do you think weapons should require a significant time and/or resource investment to craft?

I agree that there needs to be an investment, but there cannot be an 'absolute' or 'polarized' answer to this. Top tier weapons/end game weapons needs to have high tier resource costs, but those costs must not be pulled from the veteran inventory stats. The resource costs have generally been good with a few exceptions (Sibear, Hema from top of my head). There has been some really high plastid/circuits costs  ~(3000-10k) on some items, which has been fine by me even thou they are extremely high amounts considering drop rates.

I'm a player who has invested before hand to the resource costs. I've farmed for the future so I can build everything when it is released. I've started doing this since the original Dojo release to keep up with all the new stuff. I've played a lot of Derelict missions and I have 4k hours in Steam for the game, yet I only had ~3300 mutagen samples when U19.5 arrived. I'm also a IRL Ghost clan Warlord that solely research everything for the clan since others barely play anymore. I'm not going to quit my clan that I've invested 4 years in. 1000 to 1500 mutagen samples would have been still acceptable.

We as players want to enjoy the entertainment of gameplay, but we don't want it to become our job and lifeblood and that's how it feels like as a completionist type player. When we first stack up our stashes of resources in advance and then we are forced to double the farming after new releases because we tried to anticipate.

[example: You get a job that pays you well enough to save some up. You do that job for 10 years so you could build a house. Finally when you've accumulated the needed cash for the house you want to invest, but you are told 'NO, because you have done the job already we tax you the double. You must work for it!' ... 'But I already did work for it for 10 years and I already have the cash needed!' ] or another example: [It's like serving the jail sentence twice, just because you had a good behavior]

The problem is more with the fact that so many players are barely or not at all contributing to the clan research. It's not necessary their fault as some veterans might solo the resource costs the second the item is released. I think this is still OK. But how about make it so that players who want to have that research need to still contribute their part for the clan to get access to the item? As if the player who Solely researched the item gave a loan for other players and they pay up the load for the clan. This would give the Clan Resource Vault a better function too. The new player kind of pays tribute for the item to get instant access even when the research was already complete. The next new item that is released can then be build by those resources so the few fanatically active players are not forced to always solo the researches. This concept would create the original research resource sink that was intended for players, because now it feels as if 70% (my estimate) of players just walk in to Moon Clan and pick up everything from pre-served table with zero effort and that's a reason why so many might feel burnt out too and "nothing to do" because all is done for them.

Edit:

Ghost Clan (10 members)
Research: New Weapon X: Resource 1: 1000 / Resource 2: 500 / Resource 3: 10 / Resource 4: 1000 / Credits 100 000
Veteran 'A'='Active' contributes all research requirements by himself the day 1 of Weapon X released and the item is available after 3 days for him.

Veteran 'C'='Casual' comes along on the next weekend (almost a week later) and sees that  the research is already available to pick up. But instead of just paying the current 15000 credits that most of the items have in the clan research he has to pay his clan membership tribute of 1/10 -> 10%, which is [Resource 1: 100 / Resource 2: 50 / Resource 3: 1 / Resource 4: 100 / Credits 10 000]. This 10% of resource costs is directly placed for the clans Vault for future use and the Veteran C gets and instant access to the item blueprint just like they would now with the current system. After a while the 3 remaining clan members do the same (clan has 5 members in this example) so the Vault will have an excess resources of: [Resource 1: 400 / Resource 2: 200 / Resource 3: 4 / Resource 4: 400 / Credits 40 000]

Next month Weapon Y is released with the same resource costs and again Veteran A goes first in. But this time he has the excess resources in the clan vault to use so he has to contribute only 6x the membership tribute to previous 10x. In the long run this would be better for all parties. Veteran A gets a little back, everyone has to contribute at the time they can and there would be a resource sink.

Edited January 9, 2017 by -Zr-Scroll
Clarified an actual example based on the idea above

[TheSteelRat]

Quote

3. Do you think weapons should require a significant time and/or resource investment to craft?

I do not like the fact, that no matter how much I farm, there is going to be a new resource coming out that will require me to farm the resource BEFORE I can build the new item..

The Hema research costs were on the assumption that a clan is 100% full, and has 100% participation, without a way to keep track of who donates, it becomes an exercise in frustration as those who don't want to spend plat, have to grind and farm, and wait, while others do nothing and there is no way to know who the freeloaders are, or to reward those that do the farming

[UvBenServed]

Cyst

Spoiler

My biggest problem with the cyst is that, for now at least, it’s barely significant. It’s a bit of an eyesore and it can be used to make a “unique” kubrow. But other than that, it just seems pointless. It doesn’t feel threatening. It doesn’t feel tempting. It’s just kind of annoying. Maybe that’ll change, but that’s how I’ve felt for the past 2 weeks.

 

Hema

Spoiler

I’m apparently one of the few “middle ground” people on this issue. I think the cost is too high, but I still went out and did it. And I’m always hesitant to say that because too often I see people who have done the research being met with hostility and/or accusations. “Oh you did the research? Well that MUST be because of this, this, and this”. The resource cost is obnoxious, but it’s only impossible if you make literally no effort.

I do think that some weapons should be difficult to farm for, especially for someone like me who's the only active member of my ghost clan. But I still believe the Hema was a step too far. Perhaps that will be fixed when/if mutagen samples become easier to farm for.

Btw, Xeno appears to be mistaken about the order of resources indicating their rarity. For example, on Phobos the order is:  rubedo, morphics, plastids, alloy plate. Morphics is the only rare resource there, so it should be the last one, but it’s not. Same goes for Pluto. Order is not a reliable indicator of resource rarity.

 

Nullifiers

Spoiler

The biggest potential flaw I’ve seen pointed out the bubble weak point is how it’ll be affected by the environment. Will it phase through the walls or ceiling? Will it even be possible to hit the weak point in close quarters?

I’m definitely interested in the idea damage threshold instead of a health bar. Although this raises quite a few questions as well. Exactly how much damage is required? Does the damage requirement scale? If so, how much?

I don’t think this change will be bad thing, but I’ll have to wait and see how useful it is.

 

Kuva Fortress

Spoiler

The only reason I’ve gone back to the fortress since clearing it is to scan enemies. Still need to finish the flameblades…eventually.

 

Damage 3.0

Spoiler

First off, if we’re switching gears to enemy mechanics instead of damage mods, maybe this should be called something other than “Damage 3.0”.

Second, my suggestion would be to have enemies learn/unlock new moves at higher levels. For example, level 10 bombards wouldn’t be able to do knockdown attacks and their rockets wouldn’t be able to home in on us. But at level 100, they would be as strong as they are now and they’d be able to use moves we haven’t seen yet. Like a temporary buff to nearby allies or a charge attack similar to what the juggernaut has.

Although with more advanced enemy move sets, I’d also like to see armor scaling and scaling in general looked at.

 

On a final note, I appreciate the fact that you guys want to get content out to us as soon as possible. But for future reference, I would prefer to see content updates just after long breaks rather than just before. Most big updates end up coming with a few hiccups and it would be better if you guys were around to take care of those issues right away.

[Ironelle]

1)  I do not mind the cyst because I never expected it to be permanent.  I am more interested to see what other systems you guys [DE] are kicking around rather than suggesting the ideas be scrapped because the cyst can create an eyesore.  The idea Steve shared during the stream re: creating new effects sounded interesting and I look forward to seeing something like that in game. 

3)  It [DE]pends on what is meant by significant.  Most weapons are trivial for my ghost clan to research.  We have 4 active members, but only ever 2 on at a time for some context. Usually we can build the weapon without farming by paying material that we have accumulated before the weapon was released.  I do not mind the prospect of farming some for a weapon because i do not think it will benefit the game experience to make all weapon research trivial.  But I do not want to see the other extreme and my reasoning is this (if you can forgive the below slippery slope argument.  I think it is a realistic scenario.)

Please avoid:

a. grind walls for weapons are steep

b. players demand reward for the heavy investment

c. [DE]vs release more powerful weapon so players feel rewarded

d. looping?

f. 18 months from now we are talking about damage 4.0 and so on...

Hema is relatively very steep but I think it is an edge case that is unique to mutagen sample and argon crystals simply due to the drop locations where they are available.  I do not think drastic changes are necessary to avoid the situation in the future.  Just be thoughtful about availability based upon relative available locations when choosing research requirements in the future.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Ironelle
keystroke error

[Inarticulate]

I'm not voting because many of the survey questions feel like essay or short answer questions to me due to their implied complexity and the issue they appear to be addressing, and I will treat them as such.

Helminth cyst

It bothers me that there is currently no way to be permanently rid of the cyst and to prevent yourself from being infected. At the very least, draining the cyst for the first time should give the player the option to become immune to subsequent infection.

Resource costs

I have no problems with resource costs being stretch goals, but stretch goals should be reasonable and properly targeted.

The original justification for the Hema's cost of Mutagen Samples was that the cost was equivalent to 500 Mutagen Samples per clan member, which would have been more than reasonable as a stretch goal (actually, a bit low to be considered a stretch) had this actually been the case. The problem with this is that the cost was not properly targeted. The vast majority of clans are neither full nor consist entirely of active members, and clans serve the purpose of being a social hub on top of being a research facility.

Saying that the cost of 500 Mutagen Samples per clan member is reasonable, yet setting the research cost to 500 Mutagen Samples per clan member slot implicitly states that any clan that isn't full and doesn't consist entirely of active members is in the wrong, which alienates the player base.

If the intent of the stretch goal was to make the cost 500 Mutagen Samples per clan member, this should have been done by making putting the 500 Mutagen Samples as part of the Foundry crafting cost and not the research cost.

Nullifier bubble weak point

Sounds fine by me.

You did, however, mention sniper rifles in the response choices, and that brings up a separate point. Sniper rifles are typically unreliable due to the fact that most have a small chance to deal a pittance of damage when neither of its bullets land a critical hit. The weak point should not punish a player if the dice happen to roll poorly such that even if the dice roll poorly, if the hit lands, it destroys the bubble. Among other possibilities, this could be accomplished by making the weak point have low enough health to destroy the bubble even without a critical hit, remove the ability to land a critical hit on the weak point, or increasing the critical hit chance of sniper rifles when hitting weak points.

Damage 3.0

Enemy behavior is one step towards a more balanced damage system and one that I welcome, but mods should not be taken out of the equation.

The standard base damage mods should definitely remain. They serve an important role as a long-term progression goal for new players. It may not be appreciated by veteran players who have forgotten the feeling of accomplishment for ranking up Serration to rank 10 for the first time, but it's important to keep goals like this intact for the new player experience for them to see their arsenal grow stronger as a whole instead of on a weapon-by-weapon basis.

What should be changed about mods should be every other mod. Currently, there are mods that single-handedly nearly double the damage output of a weapon with no drawbacks (aside from taking up a mod slot) and stack multiplicatively with other mods that also single-handedly nearly double the damage output of the weapon. These mods (specifically, multishot and elemental mods and to a lesser extent critical hit mods) should be toned down to allow other mods to be viable options.

This may require a rework of how elemental damage works. Currently the base damage spread of a weapon is almost completely irrelevant outside of status builds due to the overwhelming portion of a weapon's damage that is elemental due to mods and the fact that elemental damage types have larger damage bonuses against health types compared to physical damage types. Regarding status builds, if mods for elemental damage have their effects lowered, physical damage types should also be changed to no longer be weighted 4 times as heavily as elemental damage types.

All in all, mod diversity in weapons is a real issue, and that won't be fully solved with changes to enemy behavior.

[45neo]

While I think refreshing enemies is a good idea that is not all that is needed, additionally we need status to be improved and make ammo hungry weapons viable.

[Unknown924]

On Hema and research

My problem with the cost is that it was based on heavily flawed assumptions, such as 100% active clans.  I think cutting the cost down to 500 samples for ghost clan would be more reasonable - it would still represent a tremendous research cost, being about that same as all previous mutagen sample requirements put together.

Going forward, I think DE should try to find numbers that would provide a decent challenge for the minimum amount of players in a clan tier, 1 for ghost clans.  This would turn having more active members than the minimum for clan's current tier into a reward instead of punishing clans for not having 100% activity for their size.

 

On Damage 3.0

Damage 3.0 needs to touch both enemies and players.  Because of how multiplicative mods are, they provide a tremendous increase in damage.  This in turn requires tremendous enemy scaling or annoying mechanics.

I think the difference between an un-modded gun and a fully modded one needs to be brought closer together.  This would also reduce the difference between 'bad' and 'good' fully modded weapons.

I know DE like freedom in modding, but adding in some limitations might be better for Warframe's balance.  Such as mutually exclusive mods or limiting types of mods that can go in some slots. Ex If base damage mods are added to weapons as they level, limit one of the current slots to only utility style mods, ie no damage or crit mods.

As an aside, I think players might care less about damage nerfs if enemy damage was also cut down or even better capped at a reasonable level.

[Thundervision]

2-in-1:

Do you have difficulty meeting the resource costs required to craft new weapons?

Sometimes. Mostly when it's about Argon (not anymore since Star Chart 3.0) or stuff requiring the new resource like Nitain or Tellurium -- no matter how high your MR or how long you're playing, you will have some troubles in the beginning.

I'm sad with the way Hema came out, but not because of the cost. Because of the particular resource it requires: Mutagen Sample. I don't remember how much time I've played, IIRC, it's close to 5k Hrs (playing since U7) and yet I had just 4.7k Samples. The resource is dropping mostly in Derelict. Sure, Eris has it listed, too, but it's a Rare resource there.

If it was Detonite or Fieldron samples, it would be just fine -- the drop-rate of these is high enough.

Do you think weapons should require a significant time and/or resource investment to craft?

Apparently, I do. But only "some" weapons need it.

I was saying that Tonkor must replace Ogris as the clan-tech weapon and get its cost increased way before we got Hema. Now I'm saying that again. I mean, just look at this:

Tonkor (superior to Ogris, almost no self-damage (50 points), top-tier crit-based GL) and its cost:

• 60.000
• 1.500 Salvage
• 200 Oxium
• 800 Cryotic
• 2 Argon
• 24hr to craft

You can get its BP for in the market.

vs.

Ogris (inferior to Tonkor and Zarr, will happily kill you, slow projectile speed, charge mechanics) and its cost:

Research (affected by Clan tier)

• 7.500
• 10 Detonite Ampules
• 500 Ferrite
• 300 Polymer Bundle
• 150 Plastids
• 72hr to research
• (Required for other weapons research)

Crafting

• 30.000
• 5 Detonite Injectors

(if not doing TLoR, Invasions -- still time-locked)

• Research: 5.000
• Research: 5 Detonite Ampules
• Research: 200 Ferrite
• Research: 250 Polymer Bundle
• Research: 100 Plastids
• 72hr to research
• Crafting: 15.000 (5x)
• Crafting: 10 Detonite Ampules (5x)
• Crafting: 1 Control Module (5x)
• Crafting: 500 Salvage (5x)
• Crafting: 250 Plastids (5x)
• 12hr to craft (5x)
• 5000 Salvage
• 600 Annoy Plates
• 1 Forma
• 35.000
• 1 Morphics
• 1 Neural Sensors
• 1 Neurodes
• 1 Orokin Cell
• 24hr to craft
• 24hr to craft

...yeah, what? Why does it take so much efforts for such crappy weapon?

 

Weapons like Hek, Tonkor, Kohm, Tigris, Sonicor, Galatine, Fragor should be put in Clan-tech (with the option to purchase it on market) with the cost to work for. It doesn't make any sense that you can easily get the weapons superior & easy to craft compared to research-locked ones.
 

Edited January 9, 2017 by Thundervision
added more cost info

[MrPie5]

I thought the Cyst was neat... the first time, when I had it on one frame.

Edited January 9, 2017 by MrPie5
spelling

[bl4ckhunter]

i'm ok with reasonable investment to aquire new weapons, key word on reasonable, however i do think that the bottleneck should be on crafting costs rather than research costs, coordinating research is pretty much impossible the larger a clan gets and warlords shouldn't be forced to kick people becouse they can't help much with some things and people shouldn't be forced to work for something they have no interest in to remain in a clan, now 5000 mutagen samples is still WAY too much but i can farm them, getting 100+ people of which a great part doesn't even give a crap about the weapon to farm 5000 mutagen samples each is simply not going to happen. Ever. 

[Vantooth]

5. What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?

While we definitely need an enemy overhaul/update IE: cleaning things like scorches, adding new interesting mechanic (synergy mentioned in the podcast come to mind) or some kind of sub-boss enemy with rare chance like a juggernaut for other factions. We desperately need to get rid of base damage mods (at the very least) imo. I suggest adding so kind of global mods, which would have limited space based on your mastery rank. You would add serration for example and as the weapon rank up it's unlock certain rank of serration (You have a maxed serration, at rank 15 your braton has a rank 5 serration and at 30 a rank 10). You could also possibly add things like reload speed to the global mods or weapon switch speed or even ammo mutations. Of course each slot/weapon type would have it's own global mod build (IE: 1 for shotguns, 1 for rifles, 1 for secondaries etc).

Being able to get rid of the base damage mod would be a boon to all. Of course some people will add more damage in the form of another elemental or something but won't that also increase the power of underused weapons? And for all who wants that sweet reload speed or max magazine they would be able to add it without losing a critical point of a build.

Adding some kind of exilus slot for weapons could also achieve something similar. Weapons exilus would consist of ammo related mods, status duration, flight speed, reload, weapon switch speed and possibly pure fire rate.

Of course multishot still need a look at, as of right now I don't believe there is no weapon that does not benefit from it tremendously.

[Chroia]

Cyst, re - viral stockpiles:
So, I have 1 of every frame, now including vanillas that I have the Primes of.
I have them for Conclave, so I rarely use them.
...
Guess what I made a point of doing with every single one of those unused frames?

And +1 to Xeno's perspective on releasing this. See my 1, below.

 

Hema, re - Rebecca's introduction.

"Statistically not impossible" - Yeah, and nor is 0.5% of getting Nitain from sab caches, and good luck with that :|
Possibly I'm just being pedantic, possibly bad choice of phrasing. idk, I'm biased.

"We've seen as many people craft it as they have purchased it" but usually more people craft than buy.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
What, if any, filters or criteria did you run that statistic through?
For instance, how many of the people who crafted it changed clan in the timeframe since its release? How many more than once? How many left-and-then-returned-to the same clan?
How many of them had an unusual plat trade with a member of a clan who's capable of extending a clan invite immediately before entering a clan - specifically, that player's clan?
How many left a large clan to join a small clan? Do they share an alliance? How many of them then returned? Stayed?

etc.

You need to massage the data. Failing to do that is what caused e.g. the Hema's Mutagen Sample cost to begin with.

Speaking of the Hema research cost.
Steve:
* How much of the chatter about ridiculous cost that you're hearing mentions the 5 Mutagen Masses (which, not insane, is on the high side)?
* How many people even mention the Neurode cost? When have we ever seen a research cost more than 5 of a rare resource (that being 5 Galium on the recent Okina) sole exception, afaik, being the Shaku, with 10.
Let me reiterate: The Hema costs 5 times as many of a rare resource than the greatest outlier, and 25 to 50 times more than the norm.
But no one talks about it, because it's deemed feasible.
* How much of the chatter says 'well, the cost'd be fine if they were Detonite or Fieldron samples?'

I might be completely wrong, but as best I see it, the complaint isn't "sticker shock" read: 'holy crap that's a huge number'.
It's 'holy crap, that's a huge number of something that I never get to begin with'.

May as well just quote what I said about it in the post-devstream thread.

 

On 1/8/2017 at 0:47 AM, Chroia said:

Hema:
I can appreciate the dilemma regarding undoing something that players have invested in. (Which is one of the reasons Primed damage mods incensed me so, coming on the tail of the initial 'removing damage mods' Damage 3.0 talk as they did)
But, respectfully, I'm not sure that you really do appreciate the pain of farming mutagen samples.

  Hide contents

They currently drop in exactly 2 places: Eris - as a rare resource, and the only spot a research mat is a rare - and Orokin Derelict, which is keylocked and therefore not puggable.

So unless one lives in the Derelicts (playing ODE for vaults, or ODS/ODD for (forma BP,) exp or relics - and for both there are better alternatives), you can't just go 'oh, well a player will accrue those passively, while playing the game, and be able to complete the Hema eventually'.

I mean, I have around 3.5k mutagen samples, and around the same number of hours logged.
(Assuming that's representative,) even in your best-case scenario, with a full and fully active and contributing clan - 500 hours is pretty darn hefty.

 

But for all of that, it's not even the quantity, large other otherwise, that bothers me about Hema.
It's the gratuitous inconvenience. The fact that it doesn't dovetail well with anything else (besides combined Vault/ODS challenge runs, and no one I know does those).

  Hide contents

Compare it with the Javlok Capacitors (which I understand and dislike - yay, another unique choke resource cluttering up my screen, inventory, etc.), at least it's on an open planet.

There are alerts there, a valuable rare resource, syndicate missions. Sure, you can put together a Nekros/Ivara/Atlas/Pilfroid and complete it in 2 spawns, but you will reasonably pick up enough capacitors sooner or later even if you don't.
(Discounting Eris as a source of mutagen samples because given rare resource drop rates, I'd honestly expect to die of old age before gathering 5k solo,) what do you have to do in the Derelict? Vaults (basically one(-per-mod)-and-done), ODA (which is alright, but not huge numbers of spawns and a boss fight), and -again ODE or ODC- for Cat-scans; which - again is 10-and-done, and not huge numbers of spawns.
There's very little compelling about going to the derelict, so you're pretty much only there for the samples.

All that said, I did do a half-dozen meta-farm runs with some friends, and can see it being a long term 'run-a-day' goal, if you have who to run it with.
Solo clan? Larger clan, but full of old, now-inactive friends who come-for-large-updates (which are what give Warframe its high-water playercount marks)?
Yeah, sucks to be you.
Which comes back around to the 'out of the way'-ness of farming for Mutagen samples.

tl;dr
Increasing stack-size will help players achieve the goals sooner.
Making them a common drop - instead of rare - on Eris will make the goal realistically passively attainable.
Either, neither, both. Your call.

 

 

Mutagen sample farm:
Good catch by Momaw - No one I've ever spoken with on the subject realised that lower on the resource display for a planet = rarer. And even then, it's not a 1:1 representation, since the drops are grouped by rarity, but not sorted by rarity.
Rob is right: It's not made clear by the UI.
Heck, anecdotally, I didn't know if for a year and a half or so, until someone mentioned it to me, and I went looking around to verify it.

 

Rebecca, re- PvP clans: No, relics don't drop in PvP, but Teshin offers Relic packs.
ofc, you still need to PvE the fissures.

 

I have, in fact, returned to the Kuva Fortress, though not often.
Practicing the rescue, filling out the Codex (Kuva Flameblades don't seem to spawn around Siphons, and rarely eximii), and Survival there's my preferred Neural Sensor farm location.
It's Grineer (read: least bullcrap-laden / most managable bullcrap faction atm), it's in the Kuva Fortress (which is a plus, since that place is awesome), and - anecdotally - I get around x6 as many Sensors per time spent there, vs. on Jupiter.
...
Of course, pre-farming resources leads to large stockpiles, leads to Hema-sized research and crafting costs.
Byproduct of quantity over quality, among other things.

 

Steve, thanks for joining. Overall, this was a good podcast all around.
:thumbsup:

-----

Now, the poll:

 

1. What's your view on the contagious Warframe Cyst?

> Other

I'd been musing, for a couple weeks now actually, that I neglected to comment, in my TWW reaction post, on the fact that TWW - for the first time for Warframe, to my recollection - gave increasingly explicit hints.
I might be mis-recalling, but my impression was that the hints final fight were a progressive series. Maybe that was just the RNG order in which it pulled the lines, idk.

Why do I bring this up?
Because, aside from level design (and kudos for that, while I'm mentioning it), Warframe's not usually strong on 'show, don't tell'.
For the most part, mechanics, systems, etc. are either implemented and explicitly spelled out (for example, Lotus' instruction on most mission types), or not only utterly undocumented, but so opaque as to be undiscoverable. (Damage 2.0 multipliers come to mind. Also, I introduced a player to the existence of syndicate pickups yesterday).
I absolutely loved that while the system was implemented - due to being rushed as it was - with absolutely no documentation, it was completely cleartext (as it were).
No deciphering was needed in any part of the process, from opening the room to injection to infection to maturation to incubation. As long as you fit the requirements, stuff visibly happened - which allowed the playerbase to collaborate and piece together what the heck was going on.

My issue with the cyst? It's flipping gross.
But that's a personal problem. Clearly, I identify with my frames too much.

-----

2. Do you have difficulty meeting the resource costs required to craft new weapons?

That depends on what you're asking.

I've spent many many hours playing Warframe.
Whether by intention, or passively, I'm been accruing resources.

So, can I instantly build most anything new that comes out? Sure.
Did I spend time and effort collecting the resources needed for it? Damn right.
The fact that the time was preloaded rather than back-loaded is a completely different issue. (Also see: Argon (the best solution of the batch, imo), Alertium (just delaying the inevitable), Relic-as-opposed-to-Keys (and the Relic bloat that causes.)

> I never have difficulty.

-----

3. Do you think weapons should require a significant time and/or resource investment to craft?

That really really depends on whether cost is intended to be equivalent to the weapon's power.
See: Expensive MR fodder vs. cheap top-tier weapons.

-----

4. What is your first impression of a Nullifier weak point that would require heavy direct damage to destroy?

I like the idea, good for hitscan snipers. Weapons with travel time, not so sure. And, ofc, the impact of sniper hipfire penalty and ADS mobility- and situational awareness-restriction on this.
> Not sure - need more information.
Such as the actual target we're supposed to hit, whether the damage required will scale with level (which will undermine the entire point), whether popping the weak spot vs hosing it down will be a permanent removal - or will still allow it to recharge, etc.

-----

5. What is your first impression of Damage 3.0 revolving around refreshing enemies rather than mods?

> Not sure - need more information

There are 2 issues here:
- Player stats vs. enemy stats.
- Mandatory mods taking up slots when modding.
As long an enemy scaling isn't capped, only touching damage mods and enemy eHP doesn't actually solve the problem, just squishes the numbers involved. And it doesn't change anything about mandatory mods being mandatory - which still means that a person only has 1-2 real mod slot choices, 0-1 if it's a crit weapon.

Bottom line: Both refreshing mods (*coughPureStatusModscough*) and refreshing enemies need to be done. But the latter didn't even exist as a conceptual possibility (as far as DE-folk expressed) before.
Now it is, and this makes me cautiously optimistic.

Edited January 11, 2017 by Chroia
Once again, those verdammt spoiler tags eating everything. Also, forgot the 'love'.

[Archeyef]

I never really had a problem with the cyst. I had assume from the start that it was leading to something, and I assumed there would be a way to get rid of it. I was content to wait for that to come, and it will apparently come this week. So Meh, it's not so bad.

For 2 and 3: Having some actual investment for weapons is a good thing. But it needs to be appropriate for the weapon. A friend of mine gifted me the Hema so I have had a chance to try it out, and I am not impressed. It is certainly not worth the extreme mutagen sample research cost, in my opinion. On top of that, there was the assumption that all clans in a tier have full rosters of active members, or the hope that this would push clans to fill their ranks with active members, and frankly I find either one a bit foolish. I think you guys generally do a good job, but I'm afraid that this time you dropped the ball. I am happy to hear that you are looking into fixing it in a way that is fair for those of us that were able to meet the mutagen cost, though. They should not be screwed over. I hope you come up with a solution that works for most players.

For 4 and 5: I am cautiously optimistic about this. I will need to wait and see how it works in practice before I have an actual opinion on it, but it does sound good in theory. I look forward to testing it. Just as a thought, maybe it would be good to try a hybrid approach. A combination of mod overhaul and enemy overhaul might be the best way to handle it, allowing for flexibility in builds and more challenging gameplay.