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Plains of Eidolon: Sniper Review!


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4 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

After watching Prime Time tonight, I also noticed a few occasions (one specific point at the 48 min mark) where the enemies themselves were visibly spawning between that 100-130m range, as she was coming down the mountain. I dont know what happens to the enemies if you back off the area to a distance of 300+ meters, but Im not sure what the damage fall-off is supposed to be for if the enemies are barely spawning around 100m.

Either way, I wasnt happy with the zoom levels at all.

I noticed that too, the render distance seems to still be the set amount as usual. Which means they haven't actually extended the draw distance any. Making all of these distance based changes even more pointless.

Edited by DarkDullahan-Prime
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2 minutes ago, DarkDullahan-Prime said:

I noticed that too, the render distance seems to still be the set amount as usual. Which means they haven't actually extended the draw distance any. Making all of these distance based changes even more pointless.

Not only that, the changes in the zoom levels dont make sense anymore because they are so close together.

Steve has also stated during the last dev stream that the most amount of performance technology has been created and implemented specifically for this update so anybody can play without issues. So that makes me wonder if distance is determined by settings? Im also curious if somebody is watching a teammate from a distance greater than 300m, if it forces draw of the enemies as the rest of the team is danger close.

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Just now, Faulcun said:

Not only that, the changes in the zoom levels dont make sense anymore because they are so close together.

Steve has also stated during the last dev stream that the most amount of performance technology has been created and implemented specifically for this update so anybody can play without issues. So that makes me wonder if distance is determined by settings? Im also curious if somebody is watching a teammate from a distance greater than 300m, if it forces draw of the enemies as the rest of the team is danger close.

I was wondering the same thing, especially given how @[DE]Rebecca tried to zoom in on the Teralyst that was about 1300m out, it just showed a rasterized image of the backdrop instead of rendering it. I hope they'll allow for the draw distance to be determined by settings, as it would definitely make sense to do so.

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4 minutes ago, DarkDullahan-Prime said:

I was wondering the same thing, especially given how @[DE]Rebecca tried to zoom in on the Teralyst that was about 1300m out, it just showed a rasterized image of the backdrop instead of rendering it. I hope they'll allow for the draw distance to be determined by settings, as it would definitely make sense to do so.

and 25 pages of questions and concerns. I really hope they at least comment on some of this, as nothing was mentioned in the stream tonight. Really dont want to be sucker punched by the patch notes on this one.

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On 9/27/2017 at 3:24 PM, DoppelShifter said:

What would happen if you manage to land a multishot proc (2 shots) and only a single projectile is needed for the kill? Does the second one count as a miss, as a hit or neither?

i.e

Clem has 100HP left, my Vectis deals 200 damage per shot, and I manage to land a multishot, killing it with one projectile. Does my second projectile count as a miss or as a hit?

Easy, you'd miss as you don't shoot Clem.....

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"Vectis - Next round is chambered immediately after firing instead of waiting for fire rate to cycle"

Thx for that -  tired pressing R after each shot. Hope it's also works with Prime version . 

And general changes looks interesting. 

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Okay, changes to the sniper weapons class look positive and all, but they will not change these guns from being a fetish. No matter how much their power is buffed.

Its all about incentives: why would I carry a weapon that is disadvantageous in all but rare distant shootouts, when most encounters are CQB and it is so easy to close that distance? Besides, I am forced to close in anyway to gather the spoils...

Unless there are foes that are considerably easier to engage at range or too dangerous to engage up close. How would something like that be achieved, I am not sure - just making some overgrown-bombard-like heavy that can only be killed by shooting in the left ear while it sneezes (example, insert your favorite weak point here) is unsophisticated. Juggernaut and Krill are like that and are hated by all.

Also, what is the purpose of "sniper combo"? To incentivise players to shoot center-of-mass as fast as possible? It sure looks this way, but such way of thinking has no place with "sniping"! Combo as this would fit semi-auto pistols and guns. Snapshooting weapons. Wouldn't it be more fitting to incetivise calculated deadly shots by a bonus that grows over time for aiming and not moving - i.e. patiently waiting for that perfect shot - which snipers are known for. After the shot the bonus should rapidly (not instantly though) be lost and couldn't be gained until position is switched.

While at it, I do think all weapon types should get "combo-like" mechanics that would incentivise their specific style of use. Not something as primitive as current melee combo though - cheesy and detracting from "combined arms" approach to combat.

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4 minutes ago, Zephyr said:

Wonder if we could get a system to choose our own scope levels 

That could be fixed by giving more scope and zoom variety through the sniper category. Unfortunately, the zoom levels are rather static throughout. 

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13 hours ago, SolidWulf said:

Provably false, considering that despite my poor aim I can hit targets just fine at 2.5x zoom. It's the same as shooting at targets 2.4 times the listed distance if I was zoomed in by 6x, or 3.2 times the distance if I was zoomed in by 8x. One of the targets I hit is 156 meters away, assuming the changes were live and I was on the Plains, that means I can headshot targets at 500 meters away.

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You continually saying they're not snipers doesn't make it a fact. It's a video game, and in video games things are usually scaled far down for a multitude of reasons. Sniper rifles are still going to be more effective than anything else for killing at these long ranges.

There is literally no difference between killing a target 300 meters away and 1000 meters away in Warframe. There is no tactical difference, they can't detect you at either range to return fire. You just lose bragging rights for your 1km kills, something I couldn't care less about.

Have you gone to that Corpus interception massive map and tried to snipe enemies there? Enemies never walk, they run, and with how erratic the AI is, it's nigh impossible to hit them. 

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I don't like the proposed rework.

 

While buffs are ok, I don't think cutting down combo time is necessary. And the hipfire penalty still being a thing.

Sniper rifles don't really bring much advantage to the table damage wise, compared to more user friendly weapons.

ARs, opticor, bows etc etc can deliver similar amounts of damage, and don't have to suffer penalties to hipfire, combination of tiny magazine and very long reload.

The only gimmick that sniper rifles bear as their "advantage" is damage dropoff at longer ranges, which will be only noticeable in PoE and nowhere else in the game.

 

I expected more, tbh.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Chitanda.Eru said:

too weird. its like they have Psychic powers. maybe an MGS style "CP! CP! this is patrol! The enemy is attacking from an unknown position!

CP : acknowledge sending reinforcements use extra caution" :D

Or they can see the reflection from the scope's lens?

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23 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Sniper rifles are not meant to be hip fired unless you are in a pinch. That is why you have your secondary for close work.

I'm not exactly sure this argument applies here.

We use variety of weapons that can be approximated to rifles in many ways with most noticeable difference to SRs being SRs having an optic scope. None of other weapons suffer hipfire penalty despite having frames similar to those of our SRs.

And unless using one of limited numbers of silencing the weapon, Sniper Rifles lose their range advantage soon after engaging the enemy, because all the enemies in the area will immediately and with telepathic accuracy know exact location of the warframe and start closing in.

In any other game I would probably agree with your argument, but in WF it feels to me more like an archaic mechanic dragged in for no reason other than "other games do it that way". Sniper rifles in Warframe aren't so powerful as to need a form of additional restrictive mechanic, they already have many of those, for example:

1. small magazine, long reload, 2. low RoF 3. limited ammo reserve and relatively rare ammo pickups 4. combo mechanic penalizing missed shots 5. relatively limited situational awareness due to tunnel visioning while aiming.

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On 9/27/2017 at 6:10 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

  • Combo duration reduced to 2 seconds for all snipers apart from Lanka which is reduced to 6

  • Damage fall off begins at 400 meters and ends at 600 meters with damage reduced to 50% past 600 meters.

 

How is reducing the combo counter a positive? last i checked, snipers reward their users for lining up shots instead of bang, run over to other guy and hopes it hits.Snipers aren't like the latron series or grinlok which are more suited for fast paced action, it seems to me this change was done in order for those of us who would want to take advantage of the combo counter would have to use Harkonar scope in order to make it suitable. SO your basically forcing us to use a mod in our builds that most times we have gone quite well without for a decent amount of time now

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3 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

That could be fixed by giving more scope and zoom variety through the sniper category. Unfortunately, the zoom levels are rather static throughout. 

Well I mean, I dunno, add a gun lab where a user can choose scopes from 3x to 12x on all, or give certain snipers certain scopes with static values such as 5x, 8x, 10x and 12x. Modular weapons are already a thing as it stands. (And plz no 5 zoom scopes on one sniper)

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57 minutes ago, Cebian said:

How is reducing the combo counter a positive? last i checked, snipers reward their users for lining up shots instead of bang, run over to other guy and hopes it hits.Snipers aren't like the latron series or grinlok which are more suited for fast paced action, it seems to me this change was done in order for those of us who would want to take advantage of the combo counter would have to use Harkonar scope in order to make it suitable. SO your basically forcing us to use a mod in our builds that most times we have gone quite well without for a decent amount of time now

I'm thinking that it's going to work just like the combo system on the Arca Scisco.  If that is the case, then Harkonar Scope would not be a must have.  Then again the whole sniper changes thing is still a work in progress and we won't know how it all works out until we actually use it in game.  

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Honestly like the changes.

Prime Time gave us an idea of how the scope loss will affect the game. But I still can't bring myself to think it was too much loss. (besides, we do have zoom mods, and the mob level at the plains isn't high enough that dedicating a slot to zoom will break anyone's rifles)

Simply waiting to see how these will behave for the first two weeks after the introduction of the Plains seens to be the safe route in here.

The important thing here is that, the devs want to nerf this mechanic before it turns into a potential Plains-breaking-meta and that is honestly the best thing in this update, meta has got to stop piling before it turns into too much to revert.

Edited by Duduminador
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15 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

I'm thinking that it's going to work just like the combo system on the Arca Scisco.  If that is the case, then Harkonar Scope would not be a must have.  Then again the whole sniper changes thing is still a work in progress and we won't know how it all works out until we actually use it in game.  

We all know how "work in progress" rework previews work. This IS the final version, don't expect it to change until (if ever) after it's release.

 

:smile:

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1 hour ago, Tachibana_Hibiki said:

I'm not exactly sure this argument applies here.

We use variety of weapons that can be approximated to rifles in many ways with most noticeable difference to SRs being SRs having an optic scope. None of other weapons suffer hipfire penalty despite having frames similar to those of our SRs.

And unless using one of limited numbers of silencing the weapon, Sniper Rifles lose their range advantage soon after engaging the enemy, because all the enemies in the area will immediately and with telepathic accuracy know exact location of the warframe and start closing in.

In any other game I would probably agree with your argument, but in WF it feels to me more like an archaic mechanic dragged in for no reason other than "other games do it that way". Sniper rifles in Warframe aren't so powerful as to need a form of additional restrictive mechanic, they already have many of those, for example:

1. small magazine, long reload, 2. low RoF 3. limited ammo reserve and relatively rare ammo pickups 4. combo mechanic penalizing missed shots 5. relatively limited situational awareness due to tunnel visioning while aiming.

There is sound range, and it works.  I've personally had shots that were not heard by enemies, even when the enemy I just shot was right next to them, without Hush installed, and that was at the (comparatively) short range of 50m.  As for the small magazine and long reload, and I know this is a bit of an edge-case, but have you ever touched a Vectis?  Basically a bolt-action with a .9s chamber time and a ~80 round magazine.  Ammo scarcity is a problem on other weapons, and most people use carrier anyway.  The combo mechanic is being changed to penalize missed shots less, and situational awareness can be worked around by pre-aiming over the shoulder, scoping, finalizing aim, then shooting and dropping out of scope.  It doesn't take much practice.

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32 minutes ago, Duduminador said:

Honestly like the changes.

Prime Time gave us an idea of how the scope loss will affect the game. But I still can't bring myself to think it was too much loss. (besides, we do have zoom mods, and the mob level at the plains isn't high enough that dedicating a slot to zoom will break anyone's rifles)

Simply waiting to see how these will behave for the first two weeks after the introduction of the Plains seens to be the safe route in here.

The important thing here is that, the devs want to nerf this mechanic before it turns into a potential Plains-breaking-meta and that is honestly the best thing in this update, meta has got to stop piling before it turns into too much to revert.

I like how you are worried about "plains-breaking-metas" but we have infinite range frames like volt hydroid and limbo. And weapons that can 1 shot way higher level enemies. Snipers are inconsistent and definitely don't need a range nerf, the only redeeming feature they have right now. If anything they are making snipers less like snipers and more like assault rifles which is is sad for the variety of weapons in warframe. The fact that this game even has variable zooms is a godsend.

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25 minutes ago, ADDgamer45 said:

I like how you are worried about "plains-breaking-metas" but we have infinite range frames like volt hydroid and limbo. And weapons that can 1 shot way higher level enemies. Snipers are inconsistent and definitely don't need a range nerf, the only redeeming feature they have right now. If anything they are making snipers less like snipers and more like assault rifles which is is sad for the variety of weapons in warframe. The fact that this game even has variable zooms is a godsend.

I'm stating that there isn't a single damn @(*()$ point in start nerfing the current meta in the game if new meta starts pilling up with every unchecked update.

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19 minutes ago, DarkShadow980 said:

  As for the small magazine and long reload, and I know this is a bit of an edge-case, but have you ever touched a Vectis?  Basically a bolt-action with a .9s chamber time and a ~80 round magazine.  Ammo scarcity is a problem on other weapons, and most people use carrier anyway.  The combo mechanic is being changed to penalize missed shots less, and situational awareness can be worked around by pre-aiming over the shoulder, scoping, finalizing aim, then shooting and dropping out of scope.  It doesn't take much practice.

Everything you mentioned is true, however it's quite noticeable amount of additional effort for, arguably, very little advantage over many other semi-auto or charge weapons. I mean, there are trash fun weapons in each weapon type, but right now Sniper rifles feel close to Dual Daggers in how useful they are compared to other slot options.

Of course, there is an alternative. Using sniper rifles can be treated as a form of end-game. Like endless survival into 100+ levels. 

No real advantage or purpose outside of proving one's 1337 5k331Z.

 

:smile:

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3 hours ago, CuChulainnWD said:

Sniper rifles are not meant to be hip fired unless you are in a pinch.

I do believe this an attempt to justify an arbitrary and unrealistic limitation for a weapon class that has enough drawbacks and restrictions as is. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

It's an established fact that sniper rifles are noted and chosen for their higher than normal accuracy and longer effective range compared to regular rifles. A scope doesn't -and shouldn't- magically change that accuracy. All a scope does is provide a tool that increases the odds of the shooter accurately putting a bullet on their intended target.

There are some welcome changes with the tune up to sniper rifles; nixing scope sway, making punch through a standardized thing and granting bonus damage on headshots are definitely good things and should have been a feature since day one.

The problem is that at the same time zoom levels have been nerfed, inflicting crits is still not reliable, and we're still forced to use our scopes...and fire as quickly as possible. This runs counter to how snipers operate and how sniper rifles work. No offense to Scott, Steve, or whoever brainstormed this "fix" to sniper weapons, but someone needs to go back, seriously study up on and analyze the subject of sniping, and then give us a proper sniper rework that makes sense.

No, watching "Saving Private Ryan" and "Enemy At The Gates" doesn't count as "studying".

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