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[DE]Rebecca

Plains of Eidolon: Facts & Fundamentals of Focus 2.0

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5 minutes ago, Phoenix_Gaming2003 said:

IMO they should make it so it activates when you get X amount of kills as the operator or something like that but thats probably just me

X kills might not be a good idea. Unless the operator does high % of hp dmg it means that sortie 3 and any mission with well armoured/high lvl enemies would have you stripped of the focus abilities.

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Why can't operators use Void magic to run faster? 

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They can "void-skate" while in battle mode and just walk and run normally out of missions.

I feel they need to be more "incorporal"  when in battle mode which will possibly also address their squishiness since 100hp is still going to get them one-shotted even from low-level enemies.  I feel we need to address the speed and clunkyness before working on powers.

 

 

Edited by Juebev
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As I've only really used Madurai at this point I can't speak much to the other schools but I do question the cloak and wait for damage boost thing. As already said that seems counter to the stated theme of the school. I'd expect Madurai to boost damage, attack speed, status chance/duration and maybe mobility, maybe add a more meaningful effect to Void Dashing through enemies.

Also as asked by others is there any plan to notably change Operator movement? As things are they're slow and clunky, hardly mobile at all really since a walking Frame outpaces a running Operator. Related, what about the range of Operator attacks? I know Void Blast is their "melee" but it's more Void Shove at present since you have to be basically right on top of an enemy for it to do anything and Void Beam doesn't feel like much of a range attack when it also requires that we be pretty freaking close while having the physical resilience of tissue paper, coupled with Operator's slow, clunky movement we have no way to safely get in range to use those attacks and get out again, Void Dash doesn't work since it uses up our energy and then we're either stuck right in front of something that can one shot us or we dash again to get out of danger and have basically wasted our time and energy doing so. Honestly the Arca Plasmor is functionally what I think Void Blast ought to be and Void Beam could really benefit from increased range. I hope these issues will be addressed at least partially by the weapons/armor for the Operator.

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2 minutes ago, zzuit said:

Rest in piece Zenurik. Having to stand still to get energy? Might as well just use energy pads and go for a less useless focus school.

This is my primary concern as well. I liked that zenurik allowed me a greater diversity of higher strength/low efficiency builds. But if it's easily replaced by energy deployables, which are cheap to make, then it's a bummer.

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Looks like we're getting poorly thought out focus trees again, most of those example scenarios would just result in you being downed instead of getting your operator ability off. This doesn't look good at all. Can't say I'm surprised, but this all seems pretty uninspired and not very useful/gimmicky. Looks like you're trying to shoehorn the operators into normal gameplay. Especially since Eidolan fights are shaping up to be a repeat of Kuva Guardians.

 

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8 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

DE is forcing operator mode on the game.  If someone doesn't like operator mode, like the vast vast vast majority of players, now it the time to speak up before it is forced more into the game.

 

Yes, but my statement was in reference to energy regen, which a lot of people have been calling to do away with. It's pretty clear that we're being shoehorned into operator mode one way or another, but hopefully it's more like other aspects of the game -- yes, some sections will be required (for tutorial reasons maybe) but afterwards it's mostly for your own enhancement if you want it. Hopefully that ends up being the case.

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27 minutes ago, Nyaa314 said:

It really is not.

Actually I'd like to see it or play it even (imagine that) before I start knee jerking all over the place. So from my perspective it is just OK, because there are many unanswered questions. 

My #1 is, is the operator more mobile when in "combat mode"?

Edited by (XB1)RDeschain82
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5 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

In both streams it was said that they don't want to spoil the new "Warrior Operator" mode that you upgrade into from the Eidolon hunter NPC.

So we'll just have to wait and see if they're quicker.

Dude, please just look through the thread and see how many people have posted feedback about how important it is that Operator movement be improved.

 

"Has Operator movement fluidity and speed been improved?"

DE can answer that with a simple yes or no, and it really is going to determine whether or not this entire 'Operator rework' succeeds or fails. 

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This is all so bad.  So bad.  No one is going to do any of this because it's too slow and no one will care to.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Naramon:

We will go over an example of a new Naramon combat scenario:

Your Banshee is under heavy Corpus fire - a barrage of Supra projectiles are coming toward you. As a Naramon Tenno, you engage Transference and enter Operator Mode and Void Blast an enemy with a Disarming Blast. Your beam has a high chance to disarm all enemies unlucky enough to be caught in its path! You return to your Warframe and make quick work of the now weaponless enemies.

Nope.  Another player will simply shoot them or the banshee will run past them.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Zenurik:

Your Mesa is going to work, protecting your defense point from hordes of Grineer. Suddenly, your Frame runs out of energy! With no Energy Restores equipped you quickly switch to your Operator and Void Dash onto your objective.This creates a bubble where you land in which you and your teammates can charge up quickly to 'Make some Peace'.

Someone will drop a restore, or the mesa will simply shoot their primary, or secondary, or melee weapon.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Unairu:

Your Atlas is rocking out on a mobile defense mission, when suddenly you a nasty Nox comes your way! Switching to your Operator, you Void Dash through the enemy, sundering some of his armor and crippling his damage output. You remain in Void Mode near your teammates to grant them invisibility as they deal with the enemy from the safety of the shadows.

No one is ever going to do that.  EVER.  They will charge the Nox with the #1 ability because that is what the Atlas does.  Or they'll just shoot him.

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Madurai:

Loki—alone in the Plains—is doing as he pleases. He decides to play a bit of a trick on some Grineer Tusk units he detects nearby. By slipping into Transference his operator cloaks himself ; each second spent cloaked significantly increases the damage of the next attack. After enough sneaking, the Operator fires and the Grineer are no more.

Why wouldn't the Loki just cloak and sneak up on them for stealth attacks?  Who is going into operator mode to crawl to the enemies on a wide open plain?

 

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin:


Your Rhino is strong, and together with the Saryn in your squad you're pummeling droves of enemies in a Survival mission. Time marches forth and so it goes, your body count climbing higher and higher. As you check out your HUD you see Saryn is taking heavy damage. With impeccable agility, you begin Transference and Void Dash through her to grant complete immunity to damage for a limited time. When you return to your Rhino, you Stomp, and the killing continues. So it goes.

No one is ever going to do that.  EVER.  A single stomp will basically do the same and will be must faster that to stop killing, go into operator mode, crawl over there, crawl through the Saryn, go back into the Rhino, and start killing again.

 

I hate to be such a Debbie Downer, but no one is going into operator mode in those scenarios.  It's TOO SLOW.  Not to mention, the warframes are severely crippled in operator mode.  Not going to happen.

 

I have no idea why DE is forcing operator mode on the players so much.  Maybe they think it is an easy way to get another playing mode out?  Maybe they want to create operator mods to for plat sales.  I don't know.  But operator mode, as it is now, is slow and useless.  No one uses it unless forced.

It's like DE is slowing the game down more and more until it will soon be a turn based game.  "Ninjas in space but now turn based!"  Wouldn't surprise me if DE ends up slowing the game down so much that time stops in the game.

 

Oh wait....

 

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The scenarios seem backwards from what "The fighter (madurai)" and "The rogue (naramon)" would be, the Fighter being sneaky like a rogue, and the rogue being in the open, fighting. (just nit picking)

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

Unairu:

 

We will go over an example of a new Unairu combat scenario:

 

Your Atlas is rocking out on a mobile defense mission, when suddenly you a nasty Nox comes your way! Switching to your Operator, you Void Dash through the enemy, sundering some of his armor and crippling his damage output. You remain in Void Mode near your teammates to grant them invisibility as they deal with the enemy from the safety of the shadows.

That paladin sounds awefully rogue-y, granting stealth to allies.

Paladins being somewhere between fighters and clerics,durable and supportive, remaining in void form to 'create a protective dome that reflects projectiles' like a nullifier strikes me as more in-line with what a paladin would do.

Next if the residuals remain forever after going into operator mode, wouldnt it make more sense for those to just always be active? as a preemptive QoL since there is likely no reason to not hop into, and out of, operator asap, save like a second or two at the start of a mission.

Just my nit-picky two cents without being able to see it in game :thumbup:

Oh and "The wizard (zenurik)" getting melee channelling efficiency seems funny, because wizards tend to use spells,give it a pass for a 'spellblade' kinda thing. still dont get why channeling cant work with guns too, while looking at melee channeling efficacy, because if we're able to put our energy into -these- chunks of metal or infested flesh I cant think of a good (non balancing) reason we cant put our energy into -those- chunks of metal or infested flesh

Edited by Ubarruk
Poking at zenurik, with a channeling tangent
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4 minutes ago, WidescreenRules said:

Even if it is broken

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My opinion is no less valid than yours and I will continue to suggest and champion a better idea, but you do you.

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It's good that the trees have a nice balance between buffing the Operator and the Warframe... but what about people who want to have a new "base Focus" now that their tree has been fundamentally altered?
For instance, I chose Naramon because Shadow Step enhanced a stealthy approach, but now that tree seems focused on aggressive, open melee; meanwhile the Madurai scenario listed suggests a bigger benefit to stealth attacks, and Unairu's includes groupwide stealth for defensive purposes. My friend chose Unairu because it was supposed to make him tanky under the old system (aaaand quickly regretted it), while Vazarin now offers temporary invulnerability phases and direct defense.

Likewise, while I'm relieved that we no longer are forced to wait 3+ minutes at the start of a mission in order to get the passives offered by using our Operators, doesn't that also encourage starting every mission by jumping into Operator mode and back? Normally there's not much incentive to do so unless you're in a long or high-level mission, but having players switch modes at the start of every public match for an affinity or damage boost could spoil new players who haven't seen Second Dream/War Within.

Simultaneously, how many of these nodes are going to be usable or available to players who completed Second Dream but not War Within? Surely someone who just unlocked the tree isn't going to be able to use effects based on Void Dash or the cloak for a while.

Finally, while the lenses and points are getting refunded, what about the critiques that have been offered to the current Convergence-based system of gaining Focus? While Convergence is active, players are encouraged to ignore objectives/allies (in spite of the cooperative benefits a lot of these trees give) and even competitively steal kills for the entire duration of the timer, and tying it to Affinity heavily benefits frames with stealth aids or borderline-OP nuking ability - not to mention that frames who don't fit in those two categories can take hours or even days to reach the 100k daily cap.
The blinking and ticking also give me headaches and just add stress to the Focus collection system.

Edited by Archwizard
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10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FISTO ROBOT0 said:

This is my primary concern as well. I liked that zenurik allowed me a greater diversity of higher strength/low efficiency builds. But if it's easily replaced by energy deployables, which are cheap to make, then it's a bummer.

I just liked it no matter the build because I actually enjoy being able to use my damn warframe.

Like, if I wanted to play this game as a pure shooter just to shoot and do nothing else other than SHOOT I would just go play call of duty or better yet counter strike. I like using abilities without having to spend credits/resources on energy pads just to sit there...

I honestly feel like I HAVE to play a tank warframe if I cant have energy regen on the go, partially because almost all of my squishies use quick thinking so if I so much as get sneezed on at high level that's all my energy just out the window and I cant use any of my abilities to properly defend my self.

Edited by zzuit
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Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Dude, please just look through the thread and see how many people have posted feedback about how important it is that Operator movement be improved.

 

"Has Operator movement fluidity and speed been improved?"

DE can answer that with a simple yes or no, and it really is going to determine whether or not this entire 'Operator rework' succeeds or fails. 

I know. I'm telling you their reason for not answering. And even on release day they won't answer, since they consider the Warrior mode details as a spoiler.

Every time they consider something a spoiler they don't talk about it in detail until the following devstream after the update.

I personally don't care whether they reveal info on it now or not, but I know they won't. So all we can do is wait and try it ourselves.

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Here's to hoping that Vazarin still has healing pulses, or something similar~~

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1 hour ago, phoenix1992 said:

Welp, time to dust the old Rhino with Steel Charge aura.

I've been using Steel Charge the whole time.  That melee Stealth damage bonus is gonna be FANTASTIC!  Mwuhahahahahaha

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26 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Hold on a moment, please DE.

After a quick comparison from what is currently in the game, a trend started to show up :

The things the Operators will do are not "new mechanics" - Ivara's Cloack arrows, The small invulnerability phases of Frost (and the big ones of Valkyr), the "slow but charged attacks"...
Are you seriously turning Focus 2.0 in Budget abilities for people that are lacking frames?
On it's own - not a bad idea, I would applaud you for that. If there was not the notion that you are giving the cold shoulder to people with vast collections and specialized builds, again.
Why would I risk Unairu invisibility for my team if I can run Ivara, Why risk RNG disarm effect (again in operator mode) if Loki does that and so on and so on. 

The advantage would be you can have Loki's disarm and the ability to make your teammates invisible at the same time.

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1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

I know. I'm telling you their reason for not answering. And even on release day they won't answer, since they consider the Warrior mode details as a spoiler.

Every time they consider something a spoiler they don't talk about it in detail until the following devstream after the update.

I personally don't care whether they reveal info on it now or not, but I know they won't. So all we can do is wait and try it ourselves.

Then, they honestly would have been better off not even posting the information they did. Look at the response it's receiving. If, by now, DE don't know that they need to fix Operator agility, then I dunno what to say.

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Is it just me or do these abilities just sound... boring? I mean maybe people will come up with fun interactions between various Operator abilities, or between Operator and Warframe abilities. But stuff like disarming enemies or getting free bonus damage just sounds kind of boring to me. Boring stat increases like +dmg especially tho.

A lot of these abilities also seem to be "superfluous trick moves". By that I mean something like the melee ground slam: On paper a ridiculously overpowered move that can stun even heavy units, opens them up to Finishers and has no downtime. But in reality nobody uses it because optimizing for high damage builds without fancy trick moves is the faster option, and speed both matters for not falling behind during group play and for not feeling like an inefficient fool while Soloing. Basically, even around the endgame Warframe is so easy that it works to its own detriment because it makes "trick moves" superfluous. Even enemies like Wardens that are designed to be taken out by a certain "trick move" (Finishers in this case) eventually just become cannonfodder people breeze through like any other enemy.

By "trick moves" among the new Focus abilities I mean stuff like disarming enemies (instead of just shooting them) or debuffing Noxes (instead of just shooting them), but even the example of protecting Saryn counts (just use one of your billion revives or health pizzas or Mantis med towers or Regen Molt or Life Strike or...).

I also don't really know why TWW-style activating the Operator to reap bonuses is necessary, seems like a boring ritual to perform every time you start a mission. Maybe it's for pre-TWW-but-post-TSD people? But I imagine the amount of people in that group with enough Focus to unlock substantial Focus buffs is negligibly small.

All that said, good on DE for - by the looks of it - not caving to community demand and reimplementing free energy. When abilities get spammed thoughtlessly, the game becomes pretty boring pretty quickly IMO. I know some people love to feel like they're playing with cheats on, but man when they're on all the time I can't help but feel you're cheating yourself out of a lot of fun. Which can seep into squad plays or meta builds that inform how the Warframe community at large plays the game, especially newbies that get the wrong impression of how the game is meant to be played properly.

Edited by Kharseth
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Just now, DatDarkOne said:

I've been using Steel Charge the whole time.  That melee Stealth damage bonus is gonna be FANTASTIC!  Mwuhahahahahaha

Damn rogues.
2011-01-03.jpg

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dont take my beloved energy overflow, i am 100% sure that your new system will be meh, because players are not allowed to have good things :/

ps. why should the operator be more combat focused.. i thought this is the waframes purpose *facepalm*

Edited by RAZORLIGHT
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Players:  Operator mode is clunky and slow.

DE: Heard you talking about operators so now we're forcing you to use them without changing what people dislike.

 

Players: We really like the game because of the fast paced game play and unique movement.

DE:  Heard you like energy so how about staying in one spot for a while?  Hope you don't die : )

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8 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Dude, please just look through the thread and see how many people have posted feedback about how important it is that Operator movement be improved.

 

"Has Operator movement fluidity and speed been improved?"

DE can answer that with a simple yes or no, and it really is going to determine whether or not this entire 'Operator rework' succeeds or fails. 

Far as I'm concerned the fact that they haven't shown any new movement mechanics involving the operator likely means they don't exist. DE wouldn't reveal story spoilers but if the Operator could parkour they would have shown even one move by now, since they haven't Operators are likely going to be just as clunky as before.

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1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Then, they honestly would have been better off not even posting the information they did. Look at the response it's receiving. If, by now, DE don't know that they need to fix Operator agility, then I dunno what to say.

I agree that they really should have at least showed off Warrior movement in the devstream. All that was shown was the operator in a new outfit with a more agile, sort of fighter looking idle animation. However, at least the new "Residuals" seem to be improvements over the current passives, where only a slight few out of 90(?) were even useful.

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