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Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

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To all the people that complain that "200 seems too much". Tell, me, Will you spend more than 40 minutes in a survival FOR Kuva if after all that time it gives you less than Kuva Syphon and Floods ? No. You'll all ignore this mission and keep doing the current method like the survival never existed. Think more instead of directly stressing when you see three numbers on a rare ressource.

 

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I like the implementation into the Survival mission and the Kuva Guardian changes, but not having the kuva scale with time is very punishing and entirely defeats the purpose of playing an endless mission. Why spend 15 minutes getting 600 (or 1200) in the Survival mission if I can just make the same amount in one normal siphon run which would take ~5 minutes? That basically defeats the entire purpose of implementing it into an endless mission.

To put it into perspective, to roll a riven with 9 rolls is 3,500 kuva. At the current rate of acquisition you would have to play an hour in the endless mission just to get ONE (1) roll, with a booster. Whereas if you played a flood and one siphon, it would take maybe 20 minutes. That again effectively defeats the purpose entirely.

In my humble opinion, you guys should just add more kuva into the game in general. Rivens and kuva are the only real reason I keep playing. I generally don't get anything good from sorties, and I will play for hours trying to scrape enough kuva to get a decent roll on the riven I'm working on. Hours and hours playing a slot-machine to try and get what I'm looking for, funny enough it was mentioned by Sheldon in the recent documentary about how he didn't want slot machines, and yet here we are. Try adding another kuva flood to the rotation, hone in on getting the endless mission right, and I think all will be right.

Also, add some way for players to lock-in a stat on their rivens already. We wouldn't need more kuva if we could do something like that.

Cheers.

 

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Now All I need is Kuva to be found in other missions on Kuva Fortress. In bottles or some mechanisms, or whatever. I don't even need big amounts of it - 5-10 per "bottle" is enough - I want it mostly for aesthetic and atmospheric reasons.

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I am desapointed here... The amount isn't the biggest issue here, but the implementation of the entire mechanics are a mess... sacrifice my life support?! 1min defending the piece?! a "tiny" amount of life support after the entire endeavor is done?! This is way to much bull in order to get the kuva... We won't be able to even use all our life support to it, else we will run out of air :(

I don't think even having a bone daddy with the group will allow us to do this thing right.

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Any chance we can get Flood versions of this new survival mode? 

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48 minutes ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Picking up this Kuva Catalyst and simply walking up to an unactivated Life Support Tower, transforms the Life Support Tower into a Kuva Harvester. Now you must protect this Kuva Harvester for 1 minute (as indicated on your UI) as enemies will now logically and forcefully attempt to destroy it. If they succeed in destroying the Kuva Harvester, you will lose out on both Kuva and the Life Support Tower - they don’t mess around with their Kuva!

Please make it so that the very least that "Kuva Harvester" scale as enemies scale. As it's mentioned that Kuva Guardian will spawn during "Kuva Harvest" , by making it  not scale in eHP gives Kuva Guardians unfair advantage over players to destroy the Harvesters , as everyone knows: Kuva Guardians are immune/highly resistant to CC abilities. Not only that, their dash attack can go right past whatever defensive abilities players put up and destroy the Harvester same way.

54 minutes ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

Once the Kuva Harvester is complete, you can grab your successfully earned 200 Kuva from the completed Kuva Harvester. Completed Kuva Harvesters also give a small percentage of Life Support to aid in your literal Survival. 

200 Kuva for 1 minute defense is not worth it. Kuva Siphons take 2 min to finish off and it rewards 600 Kuva(or 1200 if its flood), and doesn't put you under pressure of having to keep watch on life support(difference case on survival kuva, but the reward is still better). Also, it's better to have the rewards scale as well. (@DrBorris and @Blade_Wolf_16 explained it better than I could when I said "have the rewards scale")

58 minutes ago, [DE]Sheldon said:

The design intent and goal for Kuva Survival is for players, both Public and Solo, to balance risk and reward as they sacrifice their Life Support Towers for precious Kuva. Carefully managing available Life Support Towers and Life Support dropped by enemies becomes increasingly important in order to obtain as much desired Kuva possible

Although that may be the goal, combining Kuva Siphon with Survival mission on Kuva Fort is lackluster, for better or worse. I suggest making a different kind of mission on Kuva Fort with same name "Kuva Harvest". Same idea, endless mission. Instead of having to earn Kuva by managing Life supply and defend Harvester at same time, you harvest Kuva by defending object, sort of like excavation, while being "paid" for it at same time! It goes like this:

  1. You look for "Harvester" (or follow the map marker)
  2. Once you find it(or get to it), have it activated with "Catalyst" dropped by enemy(preferably Kuva Guardian)
  3. Defend as it works, while it works, it gives certain amount of kuva per minute, scaling off of the current situation i.e spawn condition
  4. The longer it works, the more intense the enemy spawn gets, and the more kuva the Harvester collects i.e "better pay" for "working longer time"
  5. Eventually, it will die, and you can look for more "Harvesters" as enemies are still hot on your tails
  6. Repeat  from step 1 until you decide to bail
  7. Grofit.

Note: If Harvester dies, and it hasn't managed to give Kuva, you get the amount it had accumulated till the point it died. Also, if Harvester dies and you activate new one, the enemy spawn condition stay same while Harvester starts from square one. Of course, the Harvester scales in HP with enemies, don't want those pesky Lvl 100 Kuva Guardian just dive bomb into Harvester and one shot it as soon as it starts up! Also, multiple Harvesters can be up at same time, for example, 2 or 3 at a time. That will only mean more enemies to spawn.

With that suggestion, I believe that the suggestion above won't heavily go against the goal of "Balance of Risk and Reward" nor the idea that "Grineers take their Kuva business serious", as I don't see one part that could go against it.

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I would like to say 2 things :

1) Make Clem the "space mom" of this mission and maybe rename it to Clem's revenge, after all the Queens wanted him dead for being different!

2-A) We get Kuva as a only reward from this mission.

2-B) Kuva Towers simply boost Kuva collecting until it expires.

2-C) Kuva Catalysts is a multiplier, each 1 increases the X by 1.5 until the timer ends, then we get the collected Kuva + Catalyst multiplier numbers. 

The current way favors Frost and Gara since these 2 can keep the Tower safe, I say replace health with timer thus giving us the freedom of choice!

Edited by Prinny13

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I think that the rewards are too low compared to kuva siphon and kuva flood missions. Risk vs reward is out of the question if the reward is not good. As of right now, the survival is inferior to the alternatives.

I think some degree of scaling is needed, in order to incentivize players to go into the kuva fortress. Of course, you can limit the scaling if you need to, if you are worried about super-meta players who will farm kuva once and will never need to again.

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IMO this is a missed opportunity. Having the rewards sit between a flood and siphon without scaling has no reward for pushing yourself. Can we have the rewards scale?

Why would players touch this if it pays out less than a flood per minute?

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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This is not enough Kuva to make it worth running. The fortress doesn't drop high priority materials, siphons/floods are much more efficient, and there are no scaling rewards. What is the benefit to running this mode?

 

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1 hour ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

What I mean by that is scaling. The Hp of the Harvester and the amount of Kuva doesn't scale?

The rewards needs to scale even if they're capped out after a bit, there needs to be incentive to stay in rather than leave. If people can't stay in Siphons/Floods are available to them, let Endurance runners have something.

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200 Kuva Per Life Support Tower and affected by boosters sounds great, during a double weekend we could potentially aquire 1600 kuva per Tower, ideally, every 10-20 minutes the Kuva Gained per siphon would increase by 50, which would encourage players to go longer if you ask me, because if it doesn't increase players can simply go 10-20 minutes, extract, and repeat.

Guardian Changes sound great, but I would have liked for the small companions they have to also gain some new tools to work with, as they usually die in an instant.

All these changes sound great however a huge issue remains, survival missions have some extremely inconsistent life support in pubs and sometimes solo due to the following reasons:

-if a player is afk in an unreachable area for the enemy then the enemies will keep spawning near him, leching away potential life support (ex: certain void tilesets)

-labyrinth or twisted tilesets need to be replaced with something similar to the massive grineer asteroid docking tileset, which offers excelent enemy spawns

-spawning mechanics need to be changed to where enemies have less time to travel to us

-life support drops should be less RNG (pub and solo) usually in pubs I will end up struggling with life support, most if not all enemies I kill barely drop any life support, unless either all enemies come to me or all team mates kill at the same time, we won't get any life support, this encourages an very crowded camping styled gameplay, which can be very booring when in warframe mobility is kind of the whole thing, most of the time in optimized squads people would want a speedva, so that enemies may get to us faster, even then with a Nekros and Speedva we can end up struggling. The Liberation on PoE is very similar to survival, with the exception its actually consistent and fun, and it also encourages mobility.

-during solo gameplay, sometimes there won't be enough enemies to make the whole experience, well, fun or any dangerous, and in pubs enemies will sometimes favor spawning near only one player, and he barely struggles because someone might be following him once they realize all enemies favor him.

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I was one of the many players who enjoyed endless survival back in the day. I solo'd every tower to 2 hours for fun. I really wish the enemies dropped at least some Kuva with the Kuva towers being a side objective instead of the only one. This is just going to turn into a meta farm fest that is just as boring as what we have now

Also 200 is laughably low when Siphons give 600 and Floods give 1200. The numbers get worse with boosters. Why would anybody run a mission with arbitrarily convoluted mechanics to get 400 Kuva with a booster when they could run a Siphon and get 1,200 or 2,400 from a Flood, also with boosters, in the same amount of time or less?

Edited by (PS4)TexasTwurkT3am

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Sounds like fun :smile: here's my 2 cents to add:

I'd give the kuva rewards a slight curve; make it scale over time to a max value, in spirit of the "higher risk = higher reward" idea

For example:

"Kuva Tower" #1 could give 200kv

#2: 250kv

#3: 300kv

#4: 350kv

#5: 400kv (at this point we hit a cap and the curve goes flat!)

#6: 400kv

and so on and so forth.

(Yeah yeah I know it's called a "kuva harvester" but... I can't help it ^^')

May be unnecessary, if the team can sustain itself from enemy kills alone. Can't wait to have a crack at this revised mission :)

EDIT:

Realized that more than one life support capsule spawns / rotation, sooo to clarify:

The above assumes 1x kuva catalyst drop / 5 minute rotation

Edited by Aldrr
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Another thing added that doesn't reward you for putting in effort.

I understand why you don't want it to scale but at the very least create a "bonus" that is added on top of whatever kuva you get and have it scale by the amount of towers you complete. As an example
5 Kuva Towers = 500 Bonus
10 Kuva Towers = 1000 Bonus
15 Kuva Towers = 1500 Bonus or stop the bonus at 10 and every other tower completed after that adds 100 kuva so 20 towers gets you 2000 kuva as a bonus to 4k that you've gotten through the towers which with a booster would be 8k so now you have 10k kuva for getting 20 towers and buying a double booster, 500 away from 3 rolls and you've now put in over 20mins into a survival. With it being able to scale like this and being an end mission reward you could have the bonus not be affected by boosters as it could get "silly" but imo the price for rolls are decently pricey so getting 200 for each completed would be pretty nice. You need 7k for 2 rolls on a riven once its maxed, you need 10.5k for 3 rolls etc etc. This is all for 1 riven now imagine people with over 50 and want to roll quite a few. 40 mins of your time spent on 200 per tower gives you a wooping single roll for a maxed riven (3.5k a roll) and if you have a double booster you get 3 rolls at 12,800 kuva.

Edited by SirWolfen
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I don't understand why a physical object is needed for this (and for the love of god, please make it red like proper kuva. None of this magenta trashy color, I get enough of that from bad fashionframe in my squad as is). Back on topic though, when you're doing a regular siphon/flood, the kuva reward is automatically given, not a pickup, and boosters/Smeeta work on that, so your excuse that "it has to be a physical object so that boosters and Charm work on it" makes no sense. Please make it an automatic deposit, not a physical pickup.

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Sigh I wish we would get these things before they're about to be shipped......kind of a waste of feedback but oh well here goes.

 

I understand you're trying to manage kuva farming using the life support but it really feels the same as normal kuva missions with different mechanics. In it's current state I imagine it's "use every tower for kuva until X minutes when things take far too long to kill to be valuable"

-Reward issues with smeeta (A.K.A. Go solo and.....Wait for it...)

-Resource chance boosters going unused

-"Map fatigue" - It's complicated, I hate normal kuva missions, but I don't really want to be locked down to JUST doing the Kuva Fortress either. There are times when I want to crack open a cold one and sit on void tilesets (like the old days) and other times when I wanna run around like a manic in Fissures.

 

I feel that Excavation (Kuva instead of Cryotic) or hijack would've fit so much better than this or some combination.

"Hijack" Example:

1. Escort one or more Kuva [siphons] to a giant Kuva [fountain]

2. Defend [siphons] while killing enemies (picking up their kuva) to fill them up (for a greater reward, but more risk), could mix in scaling Index mechanics for more risk/reward without limiting to game type, (It's kind of cute thinking about a little siphon following us and would entice at least moving around the map)

Possibilities:

-Possible to add objectives mid mission: "Hey take the siphons and do this spy, sabotage or w.e for a chance to earn bonus Kuva". 

 

Note(s):

Would likely be better to have the end reward be collective (sum of everyone's siphon) as to not punish players when someone goes Rambo in casuals. 

Also, each player defending a siphon and collecting Kuva from enemies doesn't have to be tied to a single mission type. It could be apart of the Fortress (in general) or even added as a Gear Item ("Ohey we got X minutes to collect Kuva based on enemy level gaise").

 

Edited by Synpai
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I believe that the Kuva reward amounts should scale and/or at least add in the same system of stacking boosters like there are in fissures to make it a lot more worthwhile in general.

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Would definitely love scaling kuva per successful extractor. 50 each does seem to be rather balanced!

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This is great! Can't wait to see it ^__^


Also, any thoughts on having other resources with models that match the resource? (Oxium, Tellurium, any dojo tech resource, etc)

 

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the only issue i see with this is the amount of kuva rewarded, it should scale with time spent in the survival that way its rewarding to go for longer periods of time. other than this it looks amazing. 

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