[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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1 hour ago, Tain_OSkoom said:

Not crazy about this one. Forcing yet another frame into zenurikville in order to maintain uptime on other abilities in the face of energy leech eximus units seems like a pretty miserable thing to do.

Saryn barely needs zenurik. She's tanky enough (especially with armor buffs) with Regen molt to make use of hunter adrenaline, and has 850 energy with primed flow. You can run 45% efficiency and be fine.

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

*Developer note: We really want to emphasize that this is experimental. With Spores we’re trying a couple new things that we’ve never done before, so we’ve entered new territory that is both exciting and a little scary: Infinite Duration and Infinite Escalating Damage. Both of these have had interesting and fun results under normal test play and conditions, but we are still testing and looking for edge situations that might require us to go back to the drawing board.

  • Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
  • Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.
  • When an enemy affected by Spores dies, they spread to surrounding enemies. This makes it much easier to keep Spores active.    
    • *Developer Note: We are particularly apprehensive about Spores behaving this way since we’ve paired it with an already experimental mechanic  - it is the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch.   
  • Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.
  • A meter showing damage per tick and the number of affected enemies will be available in the UI to keep tabs on active Spores. 
  • Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Viral) damage to all attacks.
  • Spores optimization! Under certain circumstances, Spores has been known to cause framerate issues in its current state. With the spreading nature of Spores in the rework, we’ve decreased the CPU burden which has made a noticeable change to the ability’s overall performance while active. There is still room for improvement but we’re fairly happy with the results so far!  

THANK GOD! ❤️ I have been suggesting the damage type change for ages

Also pretty sure Venom Dose adds Toxin as it is and not Viral but Corrosive is hands down an upgrade

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Another thought, if Saryn is getting corrosive spores, what of Hydroid's Corroding Barrage augment? I'm getting itchy from all this redundancy but I know the ladies and fellas at DE will work it all out. 

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Viral) damage to all attacks.

It was toxin damage, not viral...unless this is another undocumented change. 

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One more suggestion is... please don't test stuff using God-mode as seen in many devstream because you cannot gauge how well the abilities work on enemies in order for you to survive. If a demostrator keep getting the health of the frame very low when showcasing a frame, then something is wrong somewhere.

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I don't know that it's necessary to swap Spore and Miasma's elements. I worry that it will make Saryn only really meaningful against the grineer since only the prominently have armor. I believe you could just make Miasma proc corrosive instead of just doing Corrosive damage and it would achieve the same results without restricting Saryn to anti-Grineer only ability set.

 

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Hi there.  Super excited for this rework/revisit. Looks awesome.  Especially excited for the Contagion Cloud augment. I'm wondering how that scales. Is it going to scale with Power Strength, Range, and/or Duration? What about weapons? I'm curious how this will behave with crit damage, multishot, and punchthrough. Also beam weapons and weapon mods. If we could get more info or ability to test this augment that would be amazing! I can already see my mayhem builds!

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1 minute ago, -dicht.Goko- said:

It was toxin damage, not viral...unless this is another undocumented change. 

Thanks Tenno! You are correct, it was Toxin damage. The main post has been edited!

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MMM not sure about switching viral and corrosive dmg between spores and miasma, i would have given miasma a layer of armor strip on each tick and kept the corrosive dmg, and spores beside transferring the highest toxin instance of dot and jadda jadda all the cool things they do already, saw their main power in high lvl mostlyt for the viral STATUS that cut enemies health in half...

I would have preferred on MOLT a 4 secs invulnerability upon taking fatal dmg or after the initial cast but the iron skin treatement seems solid anyway and it'll help.

Also i'd give molt a 100% AGGRO factor in a 30/40 meters radius, to capitalize even more on those seconds of soaking up dmg and health boost,and raise molt explosion range to be in par with the range of miasma ( and increase the base range for both as well ? )

Toxic lash changes look great on paper...

I honestly can't have any funeral toughts so far even though i suspect there may be some under the line nerfing going on cus let's be honest, that saryn was brutal was already acknowleged by who knew how to use her but she's literally the EMPRESS of ELITE Onslaught obliterating enemies like they were lvl's 5 ( at least in my hands lmfao ) , Just like the eidolon hunts drew attentions on chroma, i suspect the Onslaught spotlights she's getting may lead to unpleasant nerfs.

I'll have to play the rework and test it extensively after the launch before making up my mind on the matter

 @[DE]Aidan :

Are the spores still going to spread the toxin damage instances to nearby enemies ? Not so clear...right now if an enemy is bathed in toxin DoT's popping a spore on them will transfter those DoTs along with the spores to nearby enemies

About Miasma, the as of now synergy is that :

Damage is affected by Ability Strength, Toxin and Viral status effects, and Molt.

Miasma deals an additional 100% damage to enemies affected by either Toxin or Viral status effects and an additional 200% damage to enemies affected by both.

Bonus track the state of Molt if present at the moment of casting miasma further boosts the dmg.

Is the molt dmg bonus going to still be a thing or ?

PS : Spores need to carry over the toxin dots when they spread, it's already a pain to see the mass viral statuses going ,  please !

Edited by arm4geddon-117

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Thanks for the redesign, it seems good right now, but I'm just curious, why looking at Saryn right now when a lot of other frames need much more changes than her

Edited by Horaciozhao

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Changes seem fine, will see what this so called Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage turns into. Not too exited for the Infinite Duration or pressing 1 to destroy my spores. I think the current model works well and can scale very well if we just allow spores to refresh as well as allowing toxin to stack as you pop spores which in turn would refresh spores. Also want to be able to spread toxin even if I one shot enemies. Currently if you kill the enemy with 1 shot then it does not spread the toxin damage even though you killed it with toxin. Kind of sounds like the new spore is going to be set it and forget it, I like casting spores and shooting them. Current game play is engaging enough with how 1 works.

Updates to Molt and Lash are well over due, probably will want to rename Lash to something else.

Not sure why we can't stun the enemies again with 4. Currently it lasts like about a second, unless the stun is being increased I don't know why it would matter. Yah it would be pretty OP if it lasted 5 seconds and increased with duration but it's current state does nothing but work as a small panic button which molt might finally cover now. I would like to see damage increased if the target is also effected by Toxin since that's how it works now. Then again for all we know all your toxin damage is converted to corrosive damage as this is how Spore scales now.

 

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Nice for all new changes!

hace 2 horas, [DE]Danielle dijo:
  • Venom Dose Augment Change: Spores cast on allies temporarily grant them additional Corrosive (was Viral) damage to all attacks.

Its was Toxin before, not viral. The augment says: Sopres Augment: Casting on allies will add 100% Toxin damage to heir attacks for 40 seconds. But its great the addition with corrosive.

Keep the good work!

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while most of this looks good, I am not really on boat with toxin > corrosive, since I mostly used saryn in missions with increased shields, so this will make her unfit for those now then
not going to be annoyed by anything before trying it out ofc, but I am a little worried about if I will have any use for her at all now with that gone

 

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Pros:
-Armor up to 300 base on prime
-Toxic Lash affects all weapons with added bonus to melee (helloooo sarpa)
-Spores now have infinite duration and scale with enemies cast. The longer a spore cast stays alive, the more damage they do as they spread. ALSO A HUGE CON
-Speed boost from Molt is cool i guess.
-Toxic Lash changes are nuts.

Cons:
-Viral gone from spores.
-Spores can only have one instance active. When you cast spores again, all active spores pop.
-Spores having a lower damage they have to ramp up to sucks. Especially when it's reliant on the game's enemy spawns.
-Miasma duration is still stupid low.
-Miasma is the only way to get Viral out of Saryn now. This is a direct nerf to her entire existance because of how easy it was to spread Viral with her. I hope you all enjoy miasma spam builds.

 

Spores is going to be such a hassle to actually ramp up at all with how gameplay works. It was nice having it be a cheap viral machine because of how often you had to recast it if the enemies were too far spread out. My gut says nerf, but I think it's going to have to be a wait and see how it plays out.

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That's a LOT of significant changes, and almost a TOTAL rework of Saryn. Mind you that's not a "bad thing."

Spores popping on terminated targets absolutely, exteneded ("infinite") Duration, I share the....apprehension on that.

The infinite dmg scaling....now THAT'S tough. I would advise against that specifically for now, though if-and-when it drops, we'll just have to see how it goes.

One thing I wanted to suggest, and I may document this in a select thread at a future date, is to have Spores deal elemental damage type (toxin-based only) based on melee weapon equipped, as oppossed to Viral OR Corrosive. This would let players almost "tailor-to" for various mission types. (Bringing Viral for Infested/Corpus, and corrosive for Grineer/Corrputed. Something like that)(This could also be applied to Miasma similarly).

Would suggest retaining the energy gains for Toxic Lash. This is my least-used ability on Saryn, however I know several players personally that crutch on this ability and it's slight refund function. Toxic Lash applying to all equipped weapons is most preferrable. A change I look forward to.

I can't complain about these Molt changes. Sounds very similar to Gara's "glass wall" patch-up, and that's fine by me. If it ain't broke, break it, amirite? This rework sheds light on Molt as an excellent reaction mechanic, which it pretty much has been for quite some time.

Now Miasma, on the other hand, I don't even know what to say here. I rarely if ever use it, and primarily for the Corrosive function on select targets. Switching Miasma to Viral is....I don't know. It would be interesting to see. It becomes more of a trash-mob nuke than a tactical insertion on them Corrupted Bombard bass-turds. Then again, Spores being Corrosive instead of Viral as a base may help these two abilities specifically.

Spores and Toxic Lash are thea real hot topics here. I hope things work out well in the end.

Dah-dup Surah!

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Slightly optimistic about these changes, but only time will tell if they're actually any good. DE please.

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The rework looks good so far, I still don't understand why some people are fixed on that her spores MUST be viral and miasma MUST be corrosive, we won't be able to decide if these new changes are worse than what it currently is until we see them but, I do still think her 3rd needs more thoughts put into it, maybe changing her augment into this cloud that rains acidic rain which stuns enemies and procs corrosive because the cloud is a thing in her augment so maybe let it change the whole ability entirely.

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I just thought of something for Molt. The changes, while they sound pretty good (won't be able to test until it comes to console land, which obviously won't be for a bit) don't seem like they get rid of that feeling that the ability is rather useless in terms of being a "oh crap, let me catch my breath for a sec" move when not using the augment. I was thinking (though this probably isn't balanced) to circumvent the need for the augment to heal and provide better use as a "panic button" -- make it where molt heals Saryn in an amount that scales based on the damage absorbed by molt.

Then, for augments, I have two ideas. One is admittedly out of the question, as it just takes a step in the opposite direction and that's to make it where the molt augment allows you to cast spores on it. Like I said, out of the question. The other idea I had is to make it where the augment adds an AoE healing effect (affect? I can't English) for allies.

Edited by (XB1)Ein Sof

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2 hours ago, GnarlsDarkley said:

RIP my Saryn...but it actually seems pretty fun. I'm just not so sure about the Viral to Corrosive Change on her Spores though

I'd argue making Spore corrosive is a massive improvement since although she will be somewhat less effective against Infested and Corpus, she will instead become extremely effective against Grineer and Corrupted due to their reliance on armour. One of my main criticisms of Saryn 2.0 was her inability to deal with armour effectively but the changes to Spore has on paper rectified that limitation to a massive degree.

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Firstly, I'm only putting my two cents forward because DE always gives me the impression they listen.  We're all humans on the sides of the screen here.  So I say this with the utmost respect: I feel, as someone who plays Saryn fairly often, this rework is going in the wrong direction both mechanically and narratively.  My concerns and solutions are organized by ability below.

Spore

  • On the top of the list?  Changing Viral to Corrosive is alarming and worrisome.
  • From a narrative perspective this is changing her theme from a plague spreading frame to that of an acid spreading frame. Great for Burning Man.  Not great for Warframe's already established lore.
  • Mechanically, this is making Saryn weaker against non Corrupted, non Grinner.  Even if Damage 3.0 is a while off DE should be striving to not add to Corrosive's dominance as the defacto best damage type next to Slash.
  • I'm also very, very, wary of the infinite duration.  Warframe's balance of power is already as off balance as America's current president (I live in PA).  I just don't see this going through and DE not rescinding it a few days later because it will be ridiculous.
  • Solution: Spores default damage type remains Viral.  However, if a player has Toxin, Gas, or Corrosive mods on their melee weapon, those damage and status values are inherited by Spore in addition to Viral.  Also a spore inherits toxin or corrosive properties from its victim if at anytime that victim is proced with gas, toxin, or corrosive.

Molt

The changes seem fine but what worries me about Molt is if DE ever decides to introduce AI into Warframe that isn't utterly braindead, they wouldn't shoot or attack Molt after the first few soldiers did ever.  It's why we all know that fire is harmful millions of years after the first cavedude thought it was okay to eat.  With that said, being able to leave behind multiple Molts would be very useful.

Toxic Lash

  • I really like that her #3 will add Toxin damage to firearms and melee.
  • Strongly consider making Contagion Cloud part of Toxic Lash, period.  Whether this happens or not, Contagion Cloud's damage is, in the words of Kevin O'Leary... nothing burger. It needs a serious buff to be worth using outside of trying to be cute.

Miasma

  • All Miasma needed to be more worthwhile is to actually proc Corrosive.  It never made sense a Corrosive element attack from Saryn didn't actually proc Corrosive.  
  • Solution: Watch Inuyasha until you encounter his rival, Naraku, use an attack called Miasma.  Tell me that doesn't look cool.  Keep all the listed changes of Miasma with the added caveat that Miasma deals Gas and Corrosive damage at the same time with a chance to proc those elements.
     

tl;dr: don't change Spore's default damage to Corrosive, stay away from infinite duration, make Contagion Cloud part of Toxic Lash innately, Watch Inuyasha and be inspired by Narku's Miasma.

Edited by lihimsidhe
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hmmm... what about the toxin spread if the target has a toxin proc active when detonating a spore? Is that still around?

On that note and with the new spread method, guess spores can't be detonated by weapon fire or melee now?

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2 hours ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 

I really dont like this. Why not fixing the problem at its core with the super OP armor enemies have instead of balancing the whole game around the problem?

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@[DE]Aidan With Miasma having its damage type switched to Viral and it now deals double damage to spored targets, does this also mean it still deals extra damage to enemies with Toxin procs?

Edited by IronWolfKnight

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I'm interested in these changes, heres my thoughts:

1. New spores definitely seems to have the potential to be broken. It is negative feedback control though, if the spore damage gets to be too ridiculous, it will just kill whatever it is attached to too quickly to spread the spores. so eventually, you just get one big wave of death from your spores killing everything they're attached to then you have to start over stacking the damage.  I really hope they keep the synergy with spreading toxin procs on spore, I enjoy using saryn with toxic/gas weapons to spread the damage a lot and I don't want to see the playstyle removed. (and if you would like to change it so the toxin proc still spreads even if you one shot the enemy, i would appreciate it 😉 )

 

2. new molt looks great, I love your work

 

3. New lash looks great as well. if a primary or secondary is buffed and you kill an enemy with spores, will it be guaranteed to spread a toxin proc?

 

4. Miasma still doesnt look like something i really want to use to nuke but i may be surprised once i actually play with it. I like the utility it brings with the viral proc as well

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