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[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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From this dev workshop's description, I take it that Miasma not ever proccing corrosive was a long standing bug. That alone would've massively buffed her years ago. Triple check to make sure it now actually applies Viral procs, or else we'll end up with the same disconnect that came with her previous rework.

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If Saryn should have more dmg than Volt, Mag (depending on weapon), Nova and other CASTER frames, her max EHP shouldn't be more than 2X above them.
When you buffed her to have more EHP than Rhino, that was absolutely ridiculous. Now you're buffing her to be the beefiest caster in the game? I don't comprehend the reasoning.
If anything, with these changes to pretty much quadruple her dmg output depending on speed you should be lowering her stats.

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This rework sounds amazing!

It seems that she is definitely going to be doing more damage and not just kills. I don't mind seeing these abilities get damage buffs like this but I just want certain higher level enemies with much higher HP so that we can have more engaging fights. 

Looking forward to this!

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1 minute ago, Neo3602 said:

I was referring solely to the fact the Corrosive Proc are only useful against armored enemies where as Viral Procs are universally useful.

That is a fair point, but we still get Viral from Miasma, and now we get another guaranteed proc on top of it, which is insane for Condition Overload. And even though Corrosive procs are only useful against armor, stripping armor is incredibly good. We don't need a viral proc for Infested or Corpus because they are made out of paper compared to Grineer, and they will die to the transferred toxin procs even without Viral. But if you still want Viral, you still have it. It's just that Saryn can also strip armor automatically now.

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8 minutes ago, SamVengance said:

Oh yeah I'm loving this. Only concern is any possible damage decrease due to spore changing to corrosive. Even still, I hope it effectively strips armor. If so, I'm right on board

THere was never any reason to keep spamming spores for an entire hour, people could already use it only once and use AOE weapons to help spread the spores infinitely. So I don't see any problems with the new press twice to explode everything mechanic. And by doing so you can make enemies recieve new spores togheter with the spread. I don't think she'll be able to remove armor completely, but you can be sure that entire rooms of enemies will have their armor removed by a lot

Edited by DreadWarlock
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10 minutes ago, [DE]Aidan said:

-snip-

Aiden i wont lie to ya I do feel sorry for you having to shift though this mess of some people angry with pitch forks and some people being wary and some people being excited i can understand everyone in here either loves the game or loves to cheese it they arnt just the best at showing it also its a good chuckle form both me and my GF seeing you school people i give :clem::clem::clem::clem: clems out of 5 Have a good day sir

now my thoughts on the sayrn changes just a nit pick with her ults name miasma normally that means a cloud of death and such maybe have it when you cast it all the spore detonate and go airborne for abit doing aoe to people who walk in or something who knows might actually pick up sayrn after this never really tried her yet

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1 minute ago, Navarchus said:

If Saryn should have more dmg than Volt, Mag (depending on weapon), Nova and other CASTER frames, her max EHP shouldn't be more than 2X above them.
When you buffed her to have more EHP than Rhino, that was absolutely ridiculous. Now you're buffing her to be the beefiest caster in the game? I don't comprehend the reasoning.
If anything, with these changes to pretty much quadruple her dmg output depending on speed you should be lowering her stats.

I beg to differ, Saryn is a melee frame, her EHP makes all the sense in the world. As for Rhino, he'll still have much more EHP, you are forgetting Iron Skin exists.

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Wonderful! After Saryn's rework, please look at Wukong, Vauban, and Nezha.

Wukong's kit needs serious love, as Defy is about the only skill i ever see used. His exalted weapon is good, but it's outclassed by normal melee weapons, of which many weapon types outclass it. Cloudwalk is interesting, if abysmally slow and alerts enemies with the negligible damage. Iron Jab should really just be his exalted's charge attack, make it cost 5 base energy per charge attack, with a very, very short charge time.

Nezha... I dont have any real ideas for him. His 4 is kinda of wonky, his firewalker is expensive, his chakram doesnt ever go very far, and it's hard to hit with it- maybe make it home in on nearby enemies better? 

Vauban's got five minelayer types in two ability slots, with great 3 and 4 for cc and chokepoint control- but he has zero defensive skills for things outside of his 3, and enemies to this day still hit me out of his vortex.

If he had a way to get health back through one of his mines, or had an energy barrier type ability like atlas and volt, it'd make him much less vulnerable to stray bullets fire half a mile away. Even Vauban prime with Steel Fiber, Vitality, Redirection, and Vigor, all maxed, only has the EHP of a Valkyr with rank 8 steel fiber and vitality on- there's no actual protection against damage if you run out of energy or get scrambled/nullified. 

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1 minute ago, Yitin said:

Give me the list

Titania, Nyx, and Wukong are all in far more need of reworks than Saryn. Saryn was at least seeing a lot of uses in Onslaught mode thanks to her 1+2 combo, but the 3 I listed are worse than most frames at literally everything in the game or only exist to use one of their 4 abilities because the other 3 are pretty bad. 

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I'm a Saryn main (Saryn Prime is pretty much when I officially started playing and what made me want to actually play the game) so when I saw the words "Saryn" and "rework" in the same sentence, suffice it to say I was scared for my waifu as I think she's fine the way she is. I molt 'n' spore of course (it's her bread and butter) but some of us actually do use other builds for her. I've two Saryn Primes in fact both with the same dedicated augmented Toxic Lash build as well as a hybrid spore / contagion cloud build...

After reading this, though, I'm very excited for the changes. I just hope you guys don't go overboard making her op to the point of being broken, then nerfing her to the ground. It's one of those things where if you make something too good, then try and balance it out, but end up making it worse than the pre-rework version, why not just leave it be? But I'm optimistic. Also, long time Saryn haters, back up. She don't want you.🙃

Edited by (XB1)Ein Sof

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Think this has come about due to EOS cheese as this seems rather random.

However, while I'm not a strong Saryn user myself, I'm not a fan of the switch up to Corrosive. It's nice that it's a way to deal with armour but this sort of thing with armour stripping abilities is becoming a little samey now, mainly popping up in reworks. Kind of feel that it lessens potential for teamwork and synergy. Could be good though but either way looking forward to giving Saryn another try once this is released.

@[DE]Steve

Kind of random but with the particle rework... Could we get more gross and sickly effects (especially when affecting enemies) for Sayrn's abilities considering she's poison themed?

Edited by Valiant
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These changes look amazing! Super hyped to see them in action later today. Thank you DE for taking another look at her, I always felt like the concept behind her had so much untapped potential!

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I support... actually all of this.

For existing Saryn builds for Lash or Spores, this will still work. You've included a function that I've been advocating for as long as I've been on the Forums; the scaling health on Molt. And you've also used what I have frequently said is the solution to the spore/molt combo that people seem to complain about in Defenses almost as much as they complain about Resonating Quake.

I can see a lot of possibilities, including the fact that Miasma's damage type will now actually play in to those Corrosive procs by letting them strip off armour, and then dealing bonus damage to Flesh due to being Viral Damage, rather than just a Viral Proc. That's great, especially considering you've had to buff the damage to compensate for the loss of its bonus damage from Toxin procs.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)Ein Sof said:

I just hope you guys don't go overboard making her op to the point of being broken, then nerfing her to the ground.

Valid concern is valid.

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25 minutes ago, Zabzikk said:

Deleting comment nice one guys! :clap:

Left a criticism comment......deleted

How do you want us to leave feedback???

Only positive? Only good? No criticism?

Comments are removed due to being off topic or down right rude. If you wish to provide meaningful and constructive feedback for Developers and community members to comment on, by all means do so. DE doesn't mind negative criticism if it improves the state of the game or provides incite to player experiences. @[DE]Aidan has already expressed that comments that aren't constructive or rude will not be tolerated in this thread.

22 minutes ago, MunsuLight said:

And casting Miasma need a ton of energy .. and is instant.. And the Viral procs  will probably not last long enough ..I dont want to waste 100 + Energy each let say 8 sec just to maintain Viral.. this is just madness

Energy is the least of my concerns. The issue I have is that forcing players to cast 3 abilities with clunky key smashing just to kill some high level enemies is going to be more annoying and reduce the flow of using Saryn. I would prefer if Spores utilized Viral damage and Miasma could strip a % of armor along with its Viral damage. Give players an incentive not to run Corrosive Projection, not punish them for using it.

Edited by --Q--Voltage
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it seems interesting  but the swapp of elements is a trade off nerf,most players use corrosive projection in team setups so spores is great abilitie,she as never been complicated to use so to me makes no sense at all the reason for the rework,i hope new augments for wukong ill be added ,maybe for cloud walker and defy becouse the other 2 augments are usselees more so after the glaives explosion nerf,it was fun but there was not too many ppl using it becouse was hard to master ,also the exodia contagion nerf makes no sense why you want to use a thing that does self damage and cant even kill a lvl 70 greenier

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7 minutes ago, TheAmazingEternal said:

the procs themselves yeah, but as a damage type corrosive is better universally

 

8 minutes ago, dudefaceguy said:

That is a fair point, but we still get Viral from Miasma, and now we get another guaranteed proc on top of it, which is insane for Condition Overload. And even though Corrosive procs are only useful against armor, stripping armor is incredibly good. We don't need a viral proc for Infested or Corpus because they are made out of paper compared to Grineer, and they will die to the transferred toxin procs even without Viral. But if you still want Viral, you still have it. It's just that Saryn can also strip armor automatically now.

Pretty good points.

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Its gonna be interesting to see how these changes affect Saryn's playstyle! Sounds like it will be an upgrade of the "2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 4, repeat" playstyle that is typical of every saryn

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And where is Zephyr 3.0? The current Prime you are trying to sell that is still one of the worst and weakest frames in the game?

Skill #1, Tail Wind. The horizontal movement portion of this skill is as clunky as it ever was. You still cannot change direction, still cannot cancel it by rolling or jumping. It does travel faster and farther now for a given build, but that may or may not be desireable as you will find yourself cannoning into walls and obstacles and having to wait out the animation.

The hover portion of the skill is, frankly, completely useless. By charging for three seconds, an eternity in Warframe, you launch straight up and hover for ten seconds. You can charge less but you also get less height and less hover time. This is not affected by power stats. You cannot move during this hover and Tail Winding again does not maintain the hover when you are finished traveling. All this mode of the skill is good for is getting yourself killed while charging, stuck in ceilings when you do manage to launch, and the charge input makes using the other modes of the skill on demand more difficult.

The Dive Bomb portion of the skill will only activate when you are pointing the camera almost straight down. It is difficult to activate, but there is no reason to activate it, since Dive Bomb was bad and remains bad in this iteration.

Skill #2, Air Burst. This skill, the desperately needed new skill that was supposed to help give Zephyr new life, is nothing more or less than a slow, weak, difficult to aim projectile that has a small explosion on impact. That's it. There is, simply, no reason to ever use this skill at all, not even to "enlarge" Tornadoes (see below).

Skill #3, Turbulence. Zephyr's very lifeblood, her single useful ability up until now. At least it was left alone and unchanged, right? No, it wasn't. Turbulence has been nerfed by its unnecessary and unasked for "new unique animation", which is just a casting animation - a much longer casting animation than it had previously. A casting animation that will get you killed when you need to reactivate Turbulence, which you need to frequently and continuously do all the time, forever. Turbulence has been nerfed by this change, make no mistake.

But it gets worse, much worse. Jet Stream is now slower than it was for a given power strength. At 175% Power Strength, which is what I have long run, it is unambiguously slower than before. Jet Stream has been nerfed.

Skill #4, Tornado. First of all, the conceit that Tornadoes now do "a better job" at holding enemies is just that. Enemies still routinely fall out of them, the only difference is that they are not flung away like before. The "aiming" of Tornados is functionally useless. You usually cannot tell which tornado you are moving, and they move so slowly there is no use to it at all.

Finally... "shoot the tornadoes to damage enemies in them" is actually something I myself thought would be useful. I believed that it would open a new kind of offensive support role for Zephyr. But in practice, there are many issues with it. For one, as stated the tornadoes do not capture and hold enemies reliably or predictably. It makes far more sense to seek out and kill uncaptured enemies than to spend time shooting at tornadoes that may or may not have a worthwhile number of enemies trapped in them. Which tornado do you shoot? What exactly are you accomplishing by spending time doing this? It isn't clear to me myself, so I certainly cannot expect it to be clear to non-Zephyr teammates. Finally, "enlarging" the tornadoes by using Air Burst on them appears to have no noticeable effect on their horizontal pickup range.

So, that is Zephyr's rework. Four years of waiting for: a 1 that is still clunky, a 2 that is just another slow and non-scaling direct damage projectile, a 3 that is objectively worse than what we had before, and a 4 that I still cannot in good conscience force on my teammates as something that makes their and my gameplay better. We were told that more iteration was coming, so where is it? (Where also is her Deluxe skin, which is gathering dust as somebody's side project while frames released YEARS after her have already gotten theirs?)

Edited by Cryssoberyl
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il y a 4 minutes, --Q--Voltage a dit :

Comments are removed due to being off topic or down right rude. If you wish to provide meaningful and constructive feedback for Developers and community members to comment on, by all means do so. DE doesn't mind negative criticism if it improves the state of the game or provides incite to player experiences. @[DE]Aidan has already expressed that comments that aren't constructive or rude will not be tolerated in this thread.

Energy is the least of my concerns. The issue I have is that forcing players to cast 3 abilities with clunky key smashing just to kill some high level enemies is going to be more annoying and reduce the flow of using Saryn. I would prefer if Spores utilized Viral damage and Miasma could strip a % of armor along with its Viral damage. Give people a reason to not run CP, not punish them for using it.

That is feedback I'm happy to see (but dont bash Gara like you did if it was you XD )  ... Yeah Miasma Stripping % of Armor (scalable by Power Strenght) could be a nice option .. 

I really dont like the Viral to Corrosive Spore changes.. The more I do math with it .. the more it becomes apparent this is a nerf .. Stripping armor is useless if you can do it with either Weapons or just 4x CP.. 

Edited by MunsuLight
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