Dev Workshop: Nezha Revisited

[myuushii]

Really nice, I love the Deluxe Skin but could not see myself play Nezha. Now I might swap to him if I feel like playing something else.

[-Temp0-]

В 07.09.2018 в 23:28, Glyphicality сказал:

Don't be.

Damage reduction is plenty enough, especially with all the other benefits in exchange. The damage reduction is arguably a significant buff, as Nezha will now be able to use Hunter Adrenaline and Arcanes that trigger on damage like Arcane Avenger. I play Nezha a lot, and I can tell you for a fact that this will be nothing but a buff. 

Why the *** would you need hunter adrenaline considering most of his abilities are cheap enough already and that you will be getting shttones of energy orbs from the kills?

That's right adrenalie is a waste of a slot for anyone not spamming his 4. Just like it is on Mesa. Neither their health value or their playstyle (unlike Chroma or Wukong) has anything to do with relying on being damaged.

[(PSN)OmegaSlayer]

16 hours ago, Ghostcart said:

Looks pretty great!

To the 1 change skeptics-

They mentioned long duration in the post. I'll take Loki invis duration in return for not turning off energy regen abilities!

Also... How *will* his 1 augment work?

A toggle on a cast+duration ability?

 

 

Toggle is not the problem, but you won't ever get enough stacked damage to have a significant impact on gameplay

[ZoneDymo]

On 2018-09-07 at 6:13 PM, Zyneris said:

[DE]Pablo pliss fix Revenant and rework Wukong ❤️

Excited for Nezha though, I'd like to play the frame more.

Fix? what is broken?
And what is everyone's problem with Wukong, seriously, how is he different from lets say Valkyr?

Wukong's 1st is just better and actually pretty good overall for a 1st.
They both have the same as a 2nd, immortality.
They both have the same as a 3rd, setting enemies up for finisher damage.
They both have the same as a 4th, an exhalted weapon to beat enemies up with.

[Iceyspy]

So I have 2 ideas for his 4;

 

1). Have it work like World on Fire, but be duration based. So any enemy in around a 15-20 m range of Nezha gets the shishkebab treatment. 

 

Why? Would synergize well with his 1st skill and him being generally fast.

 

2). You " enchant " an area with your energy and for the entire duration of the ability, any enemy that enters this area is immediately impaled. 

 

Why? Allows you as Nezha to hold down an important chokepoint or defense objective, while you run around CC'ing enemies with your 1 and 2.

 

[S33K3RsDude]

17 hours ago, Robbery525 said:

This sounds amazing! 

Cant wait to insta-buy the skin and get some forma in 😄

 

sidenote: please work your magic on Revenant. Currently his 4 is the only worthwhile ability. His 2 is nice, but doesn’t feel very consistent. You can’t really tell when you can cast 1 for free on enemies. 

His 1 is all but useless. Why would I use it on a single enemy when I could just use that energy for 4 instead? (Maybe it is good in high level missions, but that is pretty exclusive use. A group AOE. Would be better.) 

His 3 is super clunky. When in his 4 it’s nice, instant practically. That is how it should be by default. Using his 3 completely breaks the flow of combat due to a cast animation that is longer than the ability lasts if you go less than 100% duration. The animation itself is fine, but needs to be tweaked so it doesn’t physically cement you down when you do it. It should also move in the same direction you are traveling. If you are backpedaling, casting it should move you further back. 

Revenant's 1 is situational. You can quickly remove ancient healers, disruptors and shield ospreys from the enemy lines to remove their buffs from enemies. In mobile defense and defense missions as well as small interception maps you can divert a lot of enemy attention from the objectives.

[Sasuda]

On 2018-09-08 at 6:14 AM, Glyphicality said:

now use Arcane...

Yes I also did actually read about arcanes but was waited to think through what those situations would exactly mean before coming to my conclusion. And now I still am not convinced that's any buff overall. Nezha can use Guardian already to help setup for a Health & Energy Conversion boosted Halo currently and it's the second most potential to be useful of those 4, Barrier is obviously not particularly great and the least effective, Grace would be redundant and unfortunately isn't much to use begin with (Inaros and Nidus are really the only frames that take much advantage with their big health and armor but also redundant in their kits). Avenger is going to be the most potential of them since damage is what Nezha lacks, and the problem with all of them is they require Nezha to be hit giving a chance of a buff. And you're a lot better off not being hit. But at the end of that is that Using Guardian before casting Halo is more effective now than it would be because it gets full damage reduction, again overall I'm seeing a nerf not a buff which isn't really what Nezha needs. On top of all of that, the other arcanes are better in the first place and rely on user action rather than enemy action.

The buff potential on Warding Halo is the damage absorption change, cast speed, and the heat status but the heat status interferes with damage absorption and we don't know it's range/spread speed. So we might be nearly just as vulnerable to the 1 shot as it wears off, hopefully not though. Damage absorption has never been that nice of a way to scale so far, but since it's going to be absorbing damage on cast it finally stands a chance to being pretty nice. But stopping sit still and taking fire has never been particularly fun (especially with teammates), but it works. Cast speed boost is plain fantastic. All of these parts can be fine improvements it could easily use without giving it too much of a buff but losing that damage resistance easily outweighs them, I think.

People have wanted a buff for Warding Halo's strength because it falls apart before it gets much use at high levels (which is why you wouldn't build for it's resistance unless you had the full Guardian, Health & Energy Conversion, etc. setup to push to it as much as possible in mid-high levels, but you're better off building it towards CC). But it's being Nerfed in the first place for the sole sake of being able to heal with Blazing Chakram so that Blazing Chakram is actually useful (required now pretty much), but we could've had that exact same effect if Blazing Chakram just Healed the Warding Halo in the first place like I've been suggesting on many Nezha threads. It's also dropping it's actual healing amount majorly so it's sorely needed to spam the chakram for any actual decent amount of health.

 

Blazing Chakram's always been more helpful to heal sentinels quickly and for it to actually be helpful for healing teammates is for the heal range not to be tiny and then it's better for general use than the new dropping orbs method (if your team is actually prepped and modded for health orb drops orbs could be situationally better.)

 

Quote

re-cast his 4 often is because it's a CC ability,

His 1st means you don't need to spam cast his 4th for CC in the first place. If you're using this for CCing generally you don't need to/shouldn't spam and you're only holding yourself back from dealing damage if you're spam casting this for CC. Spam casting for CC is really best on an AOE 1st otherwise it's not worth the energy cost when there's a number of Warframes that do both damage and CC better. And if you're just casting between groups and adding new enemies that enter then that's the chance to recover energy because you aren't spam casting. So again you wouldn't need Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline here.

Safeguard on allies that use Rage/Hunter's Adrenaline is a fair point but again there are very few frames that want/need that. And if Blazing Chakram drops energy orbs that again means it's not dependant on enemy action and you should be able to regain energy fairly easily (they don't need health, shield restore, or armor from arcanes if they're protected by Safegaurd though. So only arcane avenger users get any loss and again, other arcanes are better).

 

 

On 2018-09-08 at 6:14 AM, Glyphicality said:

effectively permanent godmode

Nezha doesn't have this. That's why people are asking to buff his Halo scaling and whatnot. It actually falls apart quite quickly unless you have a pretty good chunk of mods.

But having talked about how people have asked for Warding Halo to have more health, I personally don't agree with that. I think the changes I pointed out are enough for it, and if anything the halo's stun could use a larger radius and a minimum it can't go below (again from my suggestions on various other Nezha threads.) Because at high levels this is more helpful.  Having better scaling is good, but it'd be far better if it were based on user action rather than enemy action again.
This is also another opportunity where Blazing Chakram could've been improved without making it a mandatory ability we're forced into using like the proposed one. It could rob 5% of enemy armor of enemies hit and add it to Nezha for 3 seconds which he could use for his Halo. No stronger on low levels but scales well enough.

Thanks for raising those points, even if I don't agree here btw.

[sorcer3r]

Wouldn't it be better if the safeguard augment also became somehow time based ?

90% damage reduction for teammates for 9 seconds e.g. ?

my main nezha build is not strength maxed so safeguard is useless for me but I would really like to support my team here again 😉   

[Emposteel]

The rework looks smoother but I have 2 problems: One "small" and a bigger one.

The small one: Pyroclastic flow, for obvious reasons. You can't stack damage and you will be force to discharge all the stored damage when the ability runs out. You will loose a lot if you can't choose when you want to use it.

The big one: Warding halo. There is good ideas in the rework but: If i have only 1 HP left, I cast WH, any damage will kill me.

Make it work like this instead: If you take lethal damage while under WH, it detonate and make you invincible.

[Kotup1.7]

I Will Most definatly spare some platinum for this Deluxe skin 😄

[Kalvorax]

Spoiler

On 2018-09-07 at 9:07 AM, [DE]Connor said:

Hail Tenno!

On our last devstream, we gave players a sneak peek at the fiery Nezha Deluxe skin, which will be available in the coming weeks. As the office’s #1 Nezha enthusiast (sorry Megan), I’m very excited to announce that the deluxe skin release will be accompanied by some power kit changes!
 

[DE]Pablo has been working hard on tweaks, with two primary goals in mind:

• Making Nezha feel smoother and more fluid in gameplay
• Increasing Nezha’s power overall by giving him added team support value and internal synergies

With that said, let’s break down the changes in order!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

• Increased max rank health from 225 to 375
• Decreased max rank shields from 225 to 150

 

FIRE WALKER

• Changed from a channeling ability to duration-based.
  • Why? As a channeled ability, keeping Firewalker active would block all energy regeneration. Making the ability a single cast with a long moddable duration solves that problem, encouraging more frequent use.
• Cast animation changed to a small hop that doesn’t restrict movement.

 

BLAZING CHAKRAM

• Cast animation has been sped up, and no longer restricts movement.
• Enemies hit by the disc are “marked” for a moddable duration, greatly increasing the damage they take from all sources. Marked enemies have a chance to drop energy orbs.
  • Why? Adds great team value to Nezha’s kit - increasing damage taken helps all allies, and energy orb drops enable frequent recasting.

• Killing enemies while they are marked will now produce healing orbs, instead of the current healing pulse.
  • Why? The current radial heal is invisible and very small, usually only benefitting players in melee range - most players don’t even know it’s there! Health orbs make the result more visible, while introducing other mod synergies.
• Increased the number of targets the disc will try to hit before recalling, and improved some cases of faulty lock-on targeting.
• Added a charged throw, causing the Chakram to fly straight forwards and backwards, dealing extra damage to enemies in its path.
  • Why? For a consistent flight path unaffected by lock-on targeting, use the new charged throw. Great for hallways!

• Teleporting will no longer cancel Fire Walker.

 

WARDING HALO

• HUD now shows a custom counter, indicating how much damage absorption is left, instead of a simple numeric percentage

• Warding Halo now only blocks 90% of damage taken. Will still block status effects and other procs.
  • Why? When considering Nezha’s revamped kit, he is excellent at mitigating enemy damage - Firewalker and Divine Spears offer great area/crowd control, Blazing Chakram offers healing and self-sustain, and his outstanding movement can make the player a hard target to hit. In this context, Warding Halo’s 100% damage resistance was completely overshadowing his other options - why heal or CC when I never take any damage?
    With 90% damage resistance, Nezha is still very capable of tanking, but encouraged to rely on his other tools to avoid getting overwhelmed. Taking minimal health damage allows for synergy with Blazing Chakram’s health orbs, not to mention new modding avenues like Equilibrium, Health Conversion and various Arcanes. The change also allows us to improve survivability in other ways, such as the increased health pool, and major Warding Halo quality-of-life buffs listed below.
• Damage absorption invulnerability phase now begins as soon as you cast the ability. Cast animation also sped up.

• Increased incoming damage multiplier during invulnerability. Damage absorption multiplier also now scales with power strength.
• When the health of the Warding Halo runs out, it will do an AoE heat status effect and give you a short period of invulnerability.
  • Why? This gives the player precious time to react, helping survivability while controlling the enemies immediately around you. Your next Warding Halo can be recast during this window to ensure you’re always protected!

(Brief aside: as a Nezha main, I was originally skeptical of the 90% damage resistance change, and I suspect many readers will be skeptical too. However, playing the rework myself quickly changed my mind. The various buffs really outweigh the negatives, making Nezha much more capable in a supporting crowd-controller role. If you doubt just how potent 90% damage resistance can be, try out Gara’s Splinter Storm at 130% or more power strength!)

 

DIVINE SPEARS

• Sped up the casting/slamming animations, while removing the mandatory slam at the end of the Spears’ duration. (slam can still be triggered manually)
• Hitting a speared enemy with Blazing Chakram produces a second Chakram, which fires at a nearby enemy.

 

On top of all that, Nezha’s sounds have been remastered, adding new auditory cues for important moments, like Blazing Chakrams returning to the player, or Warding Halos running out of health!

Keep in mind that everything listed above is subject to change prior to release - with that said, we are interested in hearing your thoughts on what we have so far. We are aiming to have this rework released next week, along with the Deluxe skin bundle. Thanks for reading, and we hope you look forward to Nezha Deluxe!

now, do the changes WITHOUT arcane guardian....XD

[-Temp0-]

But the most important thing about it all tho.

[Lady_Khaos]

#PromotePablo

[Ghostcart]

On 2018-09-07 at 1:59 PM, Mardomus said:

Warding Halo:
I like the new HUD for this ability, but there is a bug that doesn't show the shield taking damage from a player.

Why would it take damage from the player? That would be awful.
We can't buff them with self damage...

[Jicematoro]

8 hours ago, ZoneDymo said:

Fix? what is broken?
And what is everyone's problem with Wukong, seriously, how is he different from lets say Valkyr?

Wukong's 1st is just better and actually pretty good overall for a 1st.
They both have the same as a 2nd, immortality.
They both have the same as a 3rd, setting enemies up for finisher damage.
They both have the same as a 4th, an exhalted weapon to beat enemies up with.

This is wrong in so many levels, but I'll cut it short by saying Hysteria (and for Warcry) is just useful enough people are fine with the otherwise boring Kit of Valkyr.

[Aisu9]

Il y a 1 heure, Kalvorax a dit :

now, do the changes WITHOUT arcane guardian....XD

but... everyone got 2 arcanes gardian r3 right ?, then he shouldn't suggest that

[_fur]

When will the bug where the Nakak masks get sized up after returning to operator mode get fixed?

[MokutoBunshi]

The changes seem awesome. My 2 cents its that halo should still have a phase where it absorbs damage to determine for how many hit points/seconds the halo will give 90% reduction so he can still tank at sortie level.

 

Without this change I think he will loose his level identity, too low a level and your hit points/seconds for 90% dmg reduction is so much you cant get past your shields and make use of rage.

Too high and the enemy eat through you hit points in a second (or your duration is too low if we take that approach) causing you to die often.

 

AWESOME work DE.

[csaszar]

Great work but...

lets face thre truth: on the pics he keeps a lato in his hands. A lato. That means DE testing him against baby enemies and low to mediocre stuff. That means: all this work is for nothing since in the "using a lato" range everything works. There is no need for complex skill synergies - just shoot and win.

Where it would be interesting that lvl will be still barred from him just as today. A complex difficult to achive skill combo will kill him fast and after the skin hype Nezha will collect dust again what is really sad...

[------Solo------]

Well time to dust off nezha for a bit see how good this rework will be.

But....

Off-Topic: Can rhino also get the same treatment to his Iron Skin, instead of % UI, a counter at the bottom right. 

[FaeliecanSagus]

Would you consider changing the warding halo appearance so that it doesn't exist just to clip? even if it has to look like a hula hoop, i'd be happy

[LordKold]

In my opinion this proposed rework is perfect except for one thing.

Blazing Chakram needs to scale off of equipped melee mods, in exactly the same fashion as Khora's whipclaw ability and Atlas' landslide ability. It would be really awesome to have a built in glaive weapon ability that can actually do real damage, as we already have whip and fists. I for one enjoy that these weapons aren't full on exalted weapons, but built in abilities. The proposed change allowing Blazing Chakram to be charged and thrown straight feels like it's already halfway there to the ability functioning like this, so please DE just let it be affected by equipped melee mods akin to the other abilities I mentioned. Such a change would also give the augment Reaping Chakram more purpose as well.

[AXCrusnik]

12 hours ago, ZoneDymo said:

Fix? what is broken?
And what is everyone's problem with Wukong, seriously, how is he different from lets say Valkyr?

Wukong's 1st is just better and actually pretty good overall for a 1st.
They both have the same as a 2nd, immortality.
They both have the same as a 3rd, setting enemies up for finisher damage.
They both have the same as a 4th, an exhalted weapon to beat enemies up with.

His 1st feels like a waste when your guns can do the same if not more damage without using energy. At least valkyr can use hers for movement and CC on enemies.

His 2nd is his saving grace, and Valk's Warcry isn't immortality. It's an armor buff, melee speed buff, and enemy speed debuff. Not to mention Valk also buffs allies in range. Defy is amazing at keeping wukong alive, but it is a selfish ability.

His 3rd isn't anywhere near as good as Paralysis, since... while it does give invincibility, and stun enemies wukong can't do anything but move and be invincible while it's active... Valk's 3 is much much much quicker deals damage and only requires 5 energy as opposed to 25 activation cost+drain over time.

His 4th's combos suck IMO. One combo in particular is nearly impossible to consistently pull off with a non-primed Fury equipped.

[(PSN)Schobii564]

On 2018-09-08 at 3:54 AM, OmegaVitae said:

Fellow Nezha main, I have 5 forma in him and play him so much I accidentally try to skate with other frames. A lot about this post is almost perfect, hits exactly the marks it needed to… right up until Halo, which breaks it all and makes me doubt their claims of maining him. It’s certainly the exact mix of “amazingly awesome changes” and “mistakes that undo/ruin all related amazingness” that I've come to expect from DE, so at least the inconsistency that is simultaneously DE’s greatest strength and greatest weakness is in itself consistent. 😛

 

The Halo change is pure bad, for a multitude of reasons:

 

• Build space: Nezha does not have build space for "warframe Serration" mods like Vitality or Redirection, meaning damage reduction is next to worthless as it's not going to have enough shield/health points to work with.
• Taking any damage, at all, is bad; it instantly breaks some of Halo's best synergies, from Health Conversion to Taxon’s precept. HC was already amazing on Nezha, EASILY eclipsing most Rhino builds if used right; it *should* be synergizing harder with him now that new Chakram does orbs(love that part, btw), but new Halo letting any damage through at all undoes even the previous Broken Scepter method of attaining and keeping health conversion charges, making the mod no longer usable on him when it already had limited usable frames as it is.
• It doesn’t even achieve the actual goal, literally doing the exact opposite: the only possible non-PR-bull reason for this otherwise needless change is to appease professional scrubs afflicted with preconceptions of Iron Skin false equivalency. the worst part is, Current Halo is already different enough, because of the damage aura, whereas New Halo has legitimately worse equivalency to Splinter Storm than current Halo ever did to Iron Skin! this change succeeds only in changing the relevant copyframe from Rhino to Gara… get ready to hear a lot of “Warding Halo is just a Worse Splinter Storm” and have it actually not be wrong, unlike the “Worse Iron Skin” spam. given that Halo would be health based, it's also going to be numerically worse than Splinter Storm by a much larger margin than it ever was to Iron Skin. just a bad change through and through.

 

Current Halo is (despite popular misconception) a unique ability, a niche in itself, an Iron Skin-Splinter Storm hybrid with jack-of-all-trades balancing and the benefits/drawbacks of both; Splinter Storm is our Damage Reduction+Damage Aura, Iron Skin is our Damage Absorption Without Aura… let Halo stay our combination Damage Absorption+Damage Aura. The only mechanical change Halo needs is to draw attention to the damage aura’s existence by making it scale with a percentage of Halo health, and maybe a base range increase. Apart from the damage reduction nerf, the rest of the Halo changes are good; though I’d remove the radial proc on depletion, just to keep it balanced when reverting that stupid damage reduction mechanic. as for the rest of the rework, bloody masterful and touched everything that needed it, well done. just need that one halo reversion to be utter perfection.

 

P.S.: No, no no no, no! Arcane usage should never be factored in to base mechanical balance at all; balancing any mechanic of any frame around endgame items rare enough to cost *literal thousands of platinum* is Bad Design, full stop, don’t @ me on that one (feel free on the rest tho, i do enjoy feedback). Act almost as if Arcanes don’t exist when making a base stat or mechanical change, because for the vast majority of players, they don’t and won’t exist. Expecting Arcanes to fix what you guys break will just make said thing unusable by most instead until said dependency is reverted.

 

Yet i use vitality and iron skin on him (and intensify, all 3 being umbra ones)

[(PSN)Schobii564]

On 2018-09-08 at 6:51 AM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

No i didn't, but thank you for reminding me so i can give you the numbers.

Nezha with changes would have 1935 EHp with 2 stack umbral vitality and umbral fiber. Since it works alongside his warding halo, taking into account roughly a 200% pS build against level 150s, effectively what you got HIGHBALL is under 10k EHp total, including 3k health from the 2 second absorb period for level 150s. Oberon has more than this. Rhino with no ironclad charge has more than this. This will go down faster than you can count the accumulated health. The whole 90% thing is a useless function made exclusively to make blazing chakram more used, whereas they could've just given it a direct effect.

About divine spears range, the base range is ok, but it's a temporary suspension that is not stackable like stomp or bastille, thus it needs heavily increased range to be useful for the full variety of situations we encounter.

Actually, nezha's base health will be 125 instead of 75 both the unleveled base health, max level being 225 and 375, with a 700% umbral vitality he then will have 1250 hp, which is still more than enough in my opinion