Rivens are implemented very poorly and I don't know if DE cares

[(PSN)Oracle-Raven]

I've wasted 9 Sorties worth of Kuva (55000+) on cycling Rivens, and got NOTHING out of it. Niet. Nada. Zilch.
I'm also convinced many other players have wasted way much more than that.

Basically, you can farm Kuva for hours doing Kuva Siphons / Flood missions or "endless" Kuva on the Fortress, yet end up with nothing in return.

TERA used to have a very similar lackluster system, except they knew it was sewage and they've fixed it since by allowing players to retain a modifier or two after "cycling" equipment.
Now I just feel angry and empty inside. I feel like demolishing a wall with a sledgehammer after having wasted so much time and getting nothing in return to show for it.

Now I'm sure some of you will defend slot machines Rivens. I'm not saying they're all bad. Sure, maybe they provide "veterans" with a way to make plat. Why not. The challenges can either be fun and challenging, or feel like the most utterly frustrating experience known to mankind where you'd rather punch something cute in the face with a gauntlet full of nails. That's fine too, whatever. The issues I'm having begin with the part where we have a system where players can end up with nothing after dumping this much Kuva. It's extremely insulting. I mean, it's not even the fact that they frequently end up with nothing, it's the fact that it's even possible at all to end with nothing after this much investment. The mere possibility of it baffles me. 

And then, there's the part that bothers me the most. In the Warframe documentary from Noclip, Sheldon even highlighted the time when they removed the Kubrow slot machine because it was getting out of hand. [DE] prides itself on that, yet they don't seem to care at all about the current state of Rivens. They barely even address them at all. It's like sweeping cocaine under the rug whenever there's visit.

Other things that irk me about Rivens include their initial core design, which was to breathe new life into weapons that get less use. That's not what Rivens do. Nobody's gonna use a Hind or a single Bolto either way. Rivens only make weapons that are already good better. Guess what did breathe new life into old weapons? The Primary, Secondary & Beam workshops.

And [DE] doesn't even do the upkeep on Riven disposition. Why has the Sicarus disposition remained so high for so long after it got its buff? Why is the disposition for the Tonkor so ridiculously low, despite that weapon having been nerfed into the ground since so long ago?

Now, you can't tell me that DE does a bad job with Warframe. I honestly believe that they're excellent developers. Some of the best out there. I don't mean to belittle their work at all.

...But when it comes to Rivens? Shoddy design at best, with laughable implementation flaws...

Disclaimer: Please realize that I'm not making this rant because I dislike [DE] or Warframe. It's quite the opposite. I'm critiquing the game that I love and adore so that it may be improved upon in an area that I feel is very lackluster. I sincerely just hope that [DE] is thinking about ways to improve the current state of Rivens soon, and isn't ignoring these issues.

[SenorClipClop]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

their initial core design, which was to breathe new life into weapons that get less use. That's not what Rivens do

My Daikyu, Boar Prime, (single) Bronco Prime, Harpak, Stradavar and Heliocor would all like to have a word with you.

[Xardis]

It doesnt help that farming kuva is the most boring content in game. Also many people suggested keeping a stattype when rolling for increesed price and DE has ignored most feedback on rivens.

[GinKenshin]

It’s working as intended, more unused weapons are getting used, and DE is making a lotta money from them as their the most expensive item in the game besides prime chamber

 

   The funny thing about it, the only roll people consider to be ‘good’ is a one that has the usual generic stats that’ll make the wep ‘good’, they don’t look at the stats of the wep, what it’s missing, what mods in the build can be replaced with the riven...etc. the idea that if a Riven doesn’t have these ‘god’ stats then it’s bad riven needs to change 

 

  And I’m gonna day it, it’s rng, you just had bad luck which all of us will face. And the one Sheldon talked about was direct plat/money to change something random, that’s not what Rivens are. You spend a currency you cannot buy with irl money....you could buy the riven but that’s the whole point 

[Klavinmour]

Many games have random stat rolling mechanics, and none are able to balance it properly.

If you have ANY control over the stats that a Riven will give, you will then be sitting on an item that becomes mandatory for builds.
Keeping Rivens purely RNG based is the only way to keep them fair and balanced.

Another game right now that has a good example of this is Vermintide 2.
The max level gear has it's stats at the highest possible rating for those stats, but you can reroll those stats as many times as you want to get the stats you want.
Which of course makes certain stats more preferable when you know that they will be at the highest possible amount for it, thus creating a fixed meta.

DE is pretty damn good, but I doubt they could be the one company that finally balances a system like stat rolling.

[(PSN)OriginalEquinox]

Tbh the problem here isn't the Rivens but the Kuva required to roll them compared to the Kuva gained from floods, survival ect. Because it takes 10 minutes in Kuva survival without boosters to roll a riven just ONCE you feel let down when your roll is trash regardless if it was your first or tenth roll.

[taiiat]

 

6 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

The funny thing about it, the only roll people consider to be ‘good’ is a one that has the usual generic stats that’ll make the wep ‘good’, they don’t look at the stats of the wep, what it’s missing, what mods in the build can be replaced with the riven...etc. the idea that if a Riven doesn’t have these ‘god’ stats then it’s bad riven needs to change 

that's because while you CAN have a Utility Riven, if you're trying to fit some Utility Mod onto your Weapon, the easiest way to do what is to have a DPS Riven to free up some Slots so that you can Equip the Utility Mod.
DPS Rivens are just superior to Utility Rivens. it doesn't make Utility Rivens not able to also increase Damage by saving Slots as well but DPS Rivens save more Slots. or a Hybrid - a DPS Riven with one Utility Stat so that you get the thing you were looking for and also a big increase in Damage.

[Dhrekr]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

their initial core design, which was to breathe new life into weapons that get less use. That's not what Rivens do. Nobody's gonna use a Hind or a single Bolto either way. Rivens only make weapons that are already good better.

 

The way you approach Rivens determines the fun you have with them. I, for instance, never spent more than 15K Kuva on a single Riven. I have invested in some weapons that get less use - such as, for instance, my Dual Cestra, or my Paracyst. They're not even God rivens, they are at most decent.

But you know what? Those Rivens have breathed new life into weapons I used less.

 

Of course, if I wanted to only have God rivens for OP weapons, then I'd be probably livid all the time. I just don't, though.

[(XBOX)KayAitch]

I think they have to stay random, but with the vast majority of possible combinations being fairly useless or just not as good as anything else you'd put in the slot the chances of getting a good one are far too low.

Rerolls should start cheaper and increase in cost slower.

[Walkampf]

I stopped caring about rivens entirely.

There are plenty of ways to get weapons to work decently enough without them.

I think they are Warframes worst mechanic. Yes, they boot some weapons to becoming usable way past their inital stats, but all the bad sideeffects which come with the riven system far overshadow the decision to include a slot-machine mechanic isntead of giving unused weapons a boost to base-stats.

Rivens are basically loot boxes with power, the very same as in Star Wars Battlefronts lootboxes, even if maybe less expensive. The mechanic is hardly different.

DE removed rerolling your kubrows appearence for plat.

I completly fail to understand why DE still keeps rivens around.

[Kialandi]

16 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

Rivens are basically loot boxes with power, the very same as in Star Wars Battlefronts lootboxes, even if maybe less expensive. The mechanic is hardly different.

DE removed rerolling your kubrows appearence for plat.

I completly fail to understand why DE still keeps rivens around.

You can't buy Kuva with Platinum. Sure it acts like a lootbox but you are not spending any money to roll it.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Oracle-Raven said:

their initial core design, which was to breathe new life into weapons that get less use.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this. There is only a handful of people that use Rivens on "bad" weapons to make them "good". Most of the playerbase is putting Rivens on their Lanka, Tiberon Prime etc.

[Walkampf]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Kialandi:

You can't buy Kuva with Platinum. Sure it acts like a lootbox but you are not spending any money to roll it.

You buy rivens for players.

You are incentivesed to buy boosters to increase your kuva amount.

And even if you don't you still pay with a massive amount you personal time. And as we all know, time is money.

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

I don't like that empty feeling when you burn through a stack of kuva and get nothing from it. I'd feel better about it if there was some kind of consolation prize like the more kuva you use on a riven the more your chances of getting a decent roll increase, or simply better secondary rewards for running kuva missions. 

It definitely does make my less used weapons more viable though. That tends to be the point of rivens for me for the most part, taking something mediocre and making it into a beast. I've been thinking about picking up a Furis riven and seeing what I can do with it, just for fun. 

[kebra]

20 minutes ago, Kialandi said:

you are not spending any money to roll it.

Maybe not money, but time... and not everyone has plenty of that on their hands. It would be cool if they respected the time invested in farming that resource in particular.

[Rawbeard]

they care, even I can't pretend otherwise. but they might not kow how to make it better, or just don't have the time to work on it. currently it seems to work well as a plat sink for players to trade with

[Kialandi]

2 hours ago, Walkampf said:

You buy rivens for players.

You are incentivesed to buy boosters to increase your kuva amount.

And even if you don't you still pay with a massive amount you personal time. And as we all know, time is money.

Nothing forces you to buy rivens. I haven't bought a single one yet.

Isn't that the same for every single resource in this game?

"Massive amount of your personal time" is debatable. You need time for everything in this game from farming prime parts to leveling up. Sure, time is money but in F2P games you always pay with your time.

2 hours ago, kebra said:

Maybe not money, but time... and not everyone has plenty of that on their hands. It would be cool if they respected the time invested in farming that resource in particular.

What about other resources? What about prime parts? What about leveling up? What about relic farming? What about Arcane farming? 

Everything in this game takes up a lot of your time. Kuva rerolling is at least cheap until you hit the 10th reroll.

[Synpai]

On 2018-09-11 at 10:59 AM, Synpai said:

(This is a passionate topic for me because I absolutely hate Rivens as a design system)

Haves vs HaveNots is very much a thing, that is driving riven economy through the roof and not "effort" because rather than "Hey I need to go farm until I get serration." It's "Hey I need to go farm until I get lucky enough to roll serration from a pure RNG list." It's a system of luck where someone can get a GOD roll for a strong weapon from unveiling, whilst another spends 200+ rolls to get nothing. Because of this reason alone, prices are absurd.

You can opt out just as easily, but your riven-less weapon is factually not the same as a weapon with any "appropriate" riven (Getting -damage is obviously a hindrance). This problem exists and the only counter is to get lucky or buy it, but the issue is that you may never get lucky. Pure RNG means you could theoretically roll hundreds of times and get garbage (or not at all and get perfection).

Weapons and their stats change, mods change, variants happen. Meaning your 300+ rolled riven has less (flexible) value than a riven that has the same stats but one roll (because it has the chance to change or improve if needed). This means that when it comes to Riven's there's no progression and that effort is not being rewarded. Not to mention the Riven system could have scaled stats based on the MR of the person using it (instead of arbitrarily coming with a MR lock value).

 

The purpose of rivens was to "balance out" the weapons, or at least give lesser used/powered weapons a chance. Which is why I believe all weapons should just have a "Riven Imprint" (could still take up a mod slot) that is unlocked via plat or by doing challenges (maybe doing x headshots or kills using the weapon). Such that players could trade their "Riven imprints" with others so long as they both had them unlocked. That way every weapon can have a riven and everyone can get one (just would take time to finish the challenge/to the stats wanted, but not as much as currently).

 Anyone with a bar chart can tell you what happens when you give rivens to a select few weapons (because it's random and has a cap you CANNOT get a riven for every weapon). Only SOME weapons grow in strength, and the cap only ensures that players have to be selective (Other than a few rivens I'm saving for variants I don't bother with garbage weapons I.e: Embolist).

These last points are debatable, but I really wish normal rolls cost a higher, more appropriate value in credits and holding stats cost Kuva just as much as I wish Riven's had interesting effects (like chain lightnings on third hits, or slowing enemies on crits, etc) and not percentage gains. We have a whole currency that we really can't use up thorough normal play (not to mention it would allow people to PLAY the game in any fashion and still be able to get rolls without necessarily having to hardcore farm for days on end, but still allowing the option). Games like Diablo 3 and The Divsion have systems similar to this, and it at least takes out SOME of the RNG. Rivens don't really accomplish their goal, but could have rewarded dedication to weapons, had intersting effects and used the more common currency to allow experimentation or allow people to streamline rolling as opposed to bottle-necking with pure RNG.

I just need to staple this to my backpack.

[Zi-Sui]

For those in despair about rivens: do some research on how much people usually need to roll a single riven to get acceptable stats for it. I can tell you: at most 50 or so rolls, usually. You rarely see a riven rolled much more than 50 times. It happens, but not that often. And then it can be people who are after that god roll and acceptable is not good enough for them.

So there. Have comfort in that.

What DE should do first about the rivens, is revisit the dispositions and change them, since they don't do that often. Kuva is pretty painful to farm, I agree, that why I do it in small dozes, usually with clanmates.

As for the RNG, there's no such thing as one and only RNG. RNGs come in different varieties, from tossing a coin to lottery chances, astronomical difference. ASTRO-NOMICAL! Now, to get a good roll on the riven, acceptable roll, you 90% of the time need to roll it 50 rolls or less. Those are hard numbers you can verify from riven dealers. It's a spesific RNG at place there. I might be wrong about the numbers but I'm right about it being spesific RNG, not just any RNG.

Edited September 14, 2018 by BoarWarrior

[Walkampf]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Kialandi:

Nothing forces you to buy rivens. I haven't bought a single one yet.

Isn't that the same for every single resource in this game?

This is also correct for every Lootbox in every other game.

[DrBorris]

Imagine a world where ranking up mods took a random amount of endo. For some people, it takes only 1,000 endo to max a serration. Some get a max serration for free. Others have to spend a reasonable 10,000. But then there are some people that had to spend 100,000 endo to max their Serration.

 

That is what Rivens are.

 

Don't say "you don't need Rivens" because that is pretty much the same as saying "you don't need Serration". You are right, I don't 'need' it, but it is part of the game and is a major power leveling system.

Defending a system because it is 'fine' or 'works' is disgusting. We are not here in a forum to all wallow around and say how everything is 'fine'. We are here to talk about improvements and give feedback. Why have settle when you can strive to be better? Did Warframe become the game it is today because it settled with the old 'fine' movement system? Did it settle with the old P2W mod mechanics that 'worked'. No, Warframe got better. And when it comes to Rivens, Warframe can be a hell of a lot better.

[Kialandi]

48 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

This is also correct for every Lootbox in every other game.

It's also correct for everything in life. Your point is?

[Walkampf]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Kialandi:

It's also correct for everything in life. Your point is?

 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Walkampf:

Rivens are basically loot boxes with power, the very same as in Star Wars Battlefronts lootboxes, even if maybe less expensive. The mechanic is hardly different.

 

[KochDerFrettchen]

8 hours ago, Walkampf said:

You buy rivens for players.

You are incentivesed to buy boosters to increase your kuva amount.

And even if you don't you still pay with a massive amount you personal time. And as we all know, time is money.

Would you be out earning money with that time if there weren't rivens to roll?

With this logic, any rng loot system is a lootbox.  Warframe is one continuous lootbox.

No need to muddle reasonable arguments with useless ones.

2 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Imagine a world where ranking up mods took a random amount of endo. For some people, it takes only 1,000 endo to max a serration. Some get a max serration for free. Others have to spend a reasonable 10,000. But then there are some people that had to spend 100,000 endo to max their Serration.

 

That is what Rivens are.

 

Don't say "you don't need Rivens" because that is pretty much the same as saying "you don't need Serration". You are right, I don't 'need' it, but it is part of the game and is a major power leveling system.

Defending a system because it is 'fine' or 'works' is disgusting. We are not here in a forum to all wallow around and say how everything is 'fine'. We are here to talk about improvements and give feedback. Why have settle when you can strive to be better? Did Warframe become the game it is today because it settled with the old 'fine' movement system? Did it settle with the old P2W mod mechanics that 'worked'. No, Warframe got better. And when it comes to Rivens, Warframe can be a hell of a lot better.

You do not need rivens, they are for entertainment and revival of "unpopular"/"weak" weapons(If DE would stop being pansies and update the dispositions) at endgame.

Try completing the sortie without any normal mods.  Filling out your standard assortment of mods is leagues more important than having a riven to put your amprex over 100% crit for giggles.

Rivens can be improved, but gunning for silly sensationalist comparisons to P2W and lootboxes just reduces what's being said into petty arguments over that nonsense instead of any actually proposed improvement. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by KochDerFrettchen

[Kialandi]

56 minutes ago, Walkampf said:

-snip-

KochDerFrettchen sumarized it pretty well. 

12 minutes ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

With this logic, any rng loot system is a lootbox.  Warframe is one continuous lootbox.

Thank you!

[DrBorris]

2 hours ago, KochDerFrettchen said:

Rivens can be improved, but gunning for silly sensationalist comparisons to P2W and lootboxes just reduces what's being said into petty arguments over that nonsense instead of any actually proposed improvement. 

Okay, here is a ten second suggestion. 

 

Completely rework Rivens into a mod infusion system. You infuse your max rank mods into a 'base' Riven (only has a +damage stat). This infusion consumes the max rank mod and adds its trait to the Riven (conversion rate is dependent on disposition). After you infuse, the Riven goes back to an unranked state where you have to spend endo and kuva to rank it back up to max. Once the Riven is maxed, you can start another challenge for the option to 'infuse' another mod (with reduced conversion and increased kuva requirements). 

 

But you know what the majority response will be? "that is too drastic a change" "what about the riven market" "don't nerf my God roll Tiberon Riven". From what I have gathered in most riven discussions, many people would rather be content than have something change. That is why I get "sensational" in Riven discussions. Rivens could be amazing, they could be an end game progression that the game sorely needs, but instead they are a slot machine. I hate the "f" word (fine), sensationalism is a way for me to try to get people to look past it. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by DrBorris