Getting back old Ash

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

8 hours ago, DimosZargarda said:

Currently taking time to mark enemies for Blade Storm is a waste, since you could easy kill them off with your primary/secondary before they are all marked, back then you could spamm it all you want, all you needed was 1 target and the rest gets marked depending on your reach mods.

Note that idc at all about whats op and what not, in my topic I stated multiple times that for me, its about the cool factor that Ash had with the 4th.

We can argue here all day, but fact is that Ash has become a very rare Warframe compared what he used to be, it cant be what DE intended. And this is what this is about, in a none competetive game, there should not be nerfs/changes that completly make a Warframe undesirable

In high level content like sorties. swiping your cross-hair for 2 seconds in you enemies' direction while progressing the mission is faster and more practical than having to stop and aim your weapons at enemies one by one. You're not solving a math equation to cast it.

Ash is also a solo frame due to his kit only focusing on Ash's own objectives and not his team so I don't really understand why everyone thinks that they should see him more than any other stealth frame in every random pub they join.

Only reason people used him in pubs to begin with was to have flex on how brainless they could play him with his old 4.

Edited April 3, 2019 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[(PSN)robotwars7]

wow.. I thought all the people who wanted Ash reverted to his old self were gone by now. for those that remain however.. HELL to the NO.

Ash's old Bladestorm was just far too easy, and wasn't interactive at all. map nuking is fine as long as it takes some setting up, which is why Saryn is allowed to stay the way she is, and why press 4 to win skills got phased out. Ash is so much more useful than for just his 4 as well: Shuriken can dish out unreal slash damage with the right build, Smoke Screen is underrated as an invis skill (sure it has less duration than Loki's, but  it still allows full movement and the stun effect is nice), and Teleport has more of a ninja feel to it, since you can "omae wa Mou Shindeiru" heavy targets near instantly.

old Bladestorm is gone, and it's for the best that it stays gone.

[Aldain]

Just widen the targeting range a bit so enemies can be targeted without needing to aim like you're having a seizure (think like Mesa's smallest circle from firing her 4) and I'd be happy.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

As an Ash main I can attest that his 4 is actually really good.

While yes his old 4 was godly. (I saw nothing wrong with it.) The issue it caused was the same as Banshee, Ember, & Equinox's #4s. (I fear for Saryn & Gara...their time is coming...)

Which is "AFK" playing. Some players designed builds that allowed Ash to Bladestorm & wipe the map literally. So it needed to be toned down.

His current 4 is a very well made. You also feel more like an Assassin as you stalk, mark your prey, then assassinate them with precision.

I only wish DE would make his Hidden Blade Exalted Weapons so we could mod them. (Put Corrosive, Radiation, & etc on them.) Maybe take a page out of Garuda's book and allow them to be used when he has no melee weapon.

I digress...

The more you mark a single enemy the more damage you do. Also, his 4 has 2 modes.

1. You move around while your shadow clones kill enemies.

2. You use teleport to join your clones & in a cool animation assassinate your foes.

Both have their uses.

#1 Allows you to stay in the fray & protect objectives, keep moving. Can be used as decoys, as a quick room clear, or to CC some enemies.

#2 Makes you invulnerable during dangerous situations, allows you to add 1 more target to the "death list" & by the time the animation is up...the situation or heavy fire has ceased.

Ash mains do exist OP. 

However, he's more of a Solo frame than a group frame. Also as the one true Ninja Frame... you aren't suppose to see him.

[(XBOX)AlingsasArrende]

6 hours ago, DimosZargarda said:

Currently taking time to mark enemies for Blade Storm is a waste, since you could easy kill them off with your primary/secondary before they are all marked,

Have you tried Ash? When there are many enemies around one often marks 15-20 enemies in a few seconds, much quicker than it would take to shoot them all. Another way to play him is to always run with Blade storm active and set it off once you have collected some enemy marks.

I can relate to the "coolness factor", but that coolness wore off after a while. The old Ash was rather boring once you had played him for some time. The new one allows for several different strategies and also provides more tactical options to open up in the situation. This simply makes him much more interesting and fun to play, as I see it.

[SECURATYYY]

I loved the old bladestorm, and I don't like the new one, but I don't want the first back.

I think that both have issues. If they changed it to something else than 'paint the targets' to activate it, it would be fantastic.

Maybe something like garuda's 4, where you hold to charge it and then release.

Maybe something like Ember, with the shadows randomly targeting enemies within range when the ability is active.

Maybe modify the 'paint the target' to always be active. Ash only has to look at an enemy, or deal them damage, and they get a mark. Pushing 4 would send clones after anyone marked, while removing the clunky activation of it. Could be his passive.

 

Right now his 4 is usable, but could be vastly improved. I love ash, but his 4,,,, :S

Edited April 3, 2019 by SECURATYYY

[DroopingPuppy]

15 hours ago, (PS4)dursereg said:

Name a single nerf DE has reverted. Ash is just another frame the whiners cried about till it was nerf into the ground.

Well, actually they still cried even if it was nerfed to the ground, sir.

[DroopingPuppy]

4 hours ago, (XB1)AlingsasArrende said:

Have you tried Ash? When there are many enemies around one often marks 15-20 enemies in a few seconds, much quicker than it would take to shoot them all. Another way to play him is to always run with Blade storm active and set it off once you have collected some enemy marks.

I can relate to the "coolness factor", but that coolness wore off after a while. The old Ash was rather boring once you had played him for some time. The new one allows for several different strategies and also provides more tactical options to open up in the situation. This simply makes him much more interesting and fun to play, as I see it.

Have I tried, and even against many enemies it is very annoying job to do actually. Why we have to do that with Ash in the first place, for there are much better solutions that does not requires annoying mark at all?

And it doesn't fit into his playstyle either. Honestly, current mechanism of Bladestorm is only acceptable on Loki, for he can hide behind of the enemy ranks and seek the chance to backstab the enemy. But no, not on Ash, who is concentrated on swift strike and retreat. Ash is not a sniper at all - despite he comes with Vectis Prime. His role is not the covert ops either. His other toolkits requires him to strike fast. Not to sit behind and manually mark the enemy.

 

 

---

 

Anyway, the topic should be moved to feedback forum.

Edited April 3, 2019 by DroopingPuppy

[mrhapps]

only thing i think they need to do is change the targeting back to how it used to be - automatic after u select first target. Saryns first power is very similar so i don't see the problem.

[Marvelous_A]

As long as BS does not make enemies invulnerable I'm fine. But I'd rather take a proper rework of all his abilities.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On ‎2019‎-‎04‎-‎02 at 3:02 PM, HorridaMessor said:

You really want the problem of Ash locking Ancient Eximi with such "pleasant" auras as Energy Leach and Toxic in invulernability while he slowly chips their health away back?

If it means getting Ash back the way he was YES coz the old bs was better despite its probs, all you have to do is just not use it in that situation, look at my previous comment. Also I have a solution to address the old and the new bs probs.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1078726-making-ash-better-at-what-he-does/?tab=comments#comment-10645045

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On ‎2019‎-‎04‎-‎02 at 6:25 PM, Redfeather75 said:

The method of having to...

1. Cast ultimate
2. Target enemy that is marked but not dead yet
3. Cast teleport

Does not work well.

It can be fixed just as easy as TAP key to old ultimate, HOLD key to new ultimate.

 

THANK YOU! finally someone gets it. That is one of my solutions to improve his bs, if this just happened in the first place no one would complain imo.

[(PSN)Double991]

Original Bladestorm had good damage, range, and stacked with combo multiplier but it locked you into the kill animations and teammates can't kill your targets.

New Bladestorm has more potential damage, questionable range since you need line of sight to mark anyone, and I think it still stacks with the combo multiplier but that might be gone any day now. You aren't locked into the kill animations but you can choose to be with Teleport and teammates can kill your targets.

That's just too drastic of a slowdown for me. Ash's invisibility is beaten by Loki and his DPS is much slower than many other frames. The 1 shot kill from Fatal Teleport is nice but overall not needed and too slow against groups.

The ultimate Bladestorm rework: It starts off like the old Bladestorm where you only target 1 enemy and it spreads from their location. However now you can opt out of the kill animations with Teleport and your teammates can still kill your targets.

[Cubewano]

Or or or we can just fully toss his ult and get something new as it has become evident DE does not know how to make his current ult even remotely interesting while retaining its current style. The old ult was bad because it was just a lengthy cinematic that completely removed you from play and had no actual player interaction beyond the initial cast, the new one is bad because it's either the same thing as just firing a gun but with less feedback, or a wild sling your mouse back and forth blindy for several seconds to use it efficiently which has equally dreadful feedback. Both versions feel awful to use, the first version put you to sleep, and the newer one is about as smooth and fluid as a rocky shoreline. 

Edited April 4, 2019 by Cubewano

[Lenti]

i only played Ash ONCE! since the change, i was a challenge with x number of stealth kills

there is nothing that Ash does better then other frames, the only fun unique side of him was the very satisfying ulti, but now its gone

they should make it an active buff that affects targets he walks next to rather then having to point them with the mouse, but w.e

[SECURATYYY]

You never see Ash anymore. 😞

[TARINunit9]

On 2019-04-02 at 6:21 AM, DimosZargarda said:

Which is so weird that ppl whine in a non competetive game

OK, let me drill this through your skull once and for all:

IT'S. NOT. FUN. FOR. THE. REST. OF. US. When you, as Equinox or Ember, at max sprint speed, run from one side of the map to the other hogging 100% of the kills. Yes, even if we're on our 27th relic run and we just want the mission to end already

And no, Saryn has not replaced them. The classic negative-duration Nuke Saryn died years ago, and Modern Saryn's spores need to charge up before they can kill everything, giving the other players in the squad a chance to shoot enemies. In fact Saryn's spores spread faster when her teammates contribute to the killing, thus giving a feedback loop that results in MORE fun, not less

As for Ash, well, if you can dig your ideals out of P4TW he's pretty great. His invisibility lasts much longer these days and can be cast while running, and his 4 is still incredibly strong despite the minor fact that your teammates might steal one or two of your kills

[CephalonWreaker]

well here's this thing i haven't experienced what it feels like to use ash's old 4 but i have seen how it used to work i being a ash main i mostly play solo and may it be a tier 5 bounty on cetus or a normal earth exterminate or a mot survival i just take him because i know how to use him the only problem i have with the current bladestorm i'll say is that the marking radius itself is small precision is need if you are on a range and if not its just as smooth as butter on short range 

the only buff i would like is maybe smoke screen duration buff maybe even 2 seconds would do reason why i say this is because whoever plays ash needs a narrow minded on him so the duration is increased now this is one of his survivability ability and he cannot take enemies like inaros because of his health pool i run ash with no redirection no vitality and still manage to do a lot yes the room clearing of his 4 was nerfed but i think others couldn't kill marked enemies bothered people the most 

ash himself is a very great frame in his current state yes maybe 2-3 QoL improvements here and there and you are good to go he is one of the best frames when it comes to stripping armor with seeking shuriken giving a priority target pain in his back with fatal teleport he can do it all with little to no effort it just depends on the situation he is used in some prefer old bladestorm some prefer new but old one was a problem in team composition which could be a potential problem if it comes back 

edit: you can also use bladestorm to clear bunch of enemies at a distance and finish off enemies in front of you with melee increasing your kills easily provides crowd control and more kills per sec rest you can imagine what all you can do with combos like this 

Edited April 5, 2019 by wreaker_
forgot to add something

[SECURATYYY]

Could just make the line of sight the entire screen FOV. Like a giant cone,

[CephalonWreaker]

11 minutes ago, SECURATYYY said:

Could just make the line of sight the entire screen FOV. Like a giant cone,

yes something like that would be appreciated because sometimes you mark like 10/8 enemies in plains this would ease up some work i mostly prefer using bladestorm while protecting the drone bounty by clearing off ranged targets with it (the dropping grineer) and nearby targets by melee if i see dargyn my rubico does the work making a giant cone like fov would be a great QoL change for ash because literally his whole kit is usable 

[Rakosta_Kai]

On 2019-04-02 at 10:36 AM, DimosZargarda said:

Currently taking time to mark enemies for Blade Storm is a waste, since you could easy kill them off with your primary/secondary before they are all marked, back then you could spamm it all you want, all you needed was 1 target and the rest gets marked depending on your reach mods.

Note that idc at all about whats op and what not, in my topic I stated multiple times that for me, its about the cool factor that Ash had with the 4th.

The fact that players could do this, and opted to do so indiscriminately, is why they changed it.

it's nerf was actually a slick buff even with all of the additional hoops...It was outright designed to make it less fun for the Tenno who had fun spamming it in missions.

Simply put, they didn't nerf Bladestorm...They nerfed Bladestorm spammers. 

On 2019-04-02 at 10:36 AM, DimosZargarda said:

We can argue here all day, but fact is that Ash has become a very rare Warframe compared what he used to be, it cant be what DE intended. And this is what this is about, in a none competetive game, there should not be nerfs/changes that completly make a Warframe undesirable

What source are you using as support for this opinion?

[Wolfdoggie]

I hate the marking system sooo much, please just scrap it completely.

It's slow, spastic and clunky gameplay. There're thousands of better ways they could of changed it than that.

I used to play him all the time but nowadays rarely do. He just has no purpose anymore with a terrible ability mechanic, which is a shame cuz he's the coolest looking frame in whole game imo.

His Shurikens are okay just for hitting things in weird places but the damage doesn't scale so they don't have much purpose without the augment. Stealth is short making it kind of unnecessary or have really no use at all if you go minimum duration. Honestly I wouldn't mind it being changed to something else since I can use Tenno Stealth. Plus Fashion Frame... Other frames do it so much better that I rather Ash just focused on being a violent murder machine over stealth. Teleport has never been reliable as sometimes it just doesn't work properly.. no stagger or finisher proc and have to use it again till it does. And of course Bladestorm has the worst mechanic in the whole game which is it's time-wasting marking system. Only good thing about his Rework is not having to worry about Range mods.

If I ever use him nowadays it's a full power build that only uses his Shurikens and only used out of sheer boredom and because I miss him, or it's to use his Teleport for finisher Rivens.

Spoiler

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Wolfdoggie

[zoffmode]

Ultimately, you have to realize that you're not supposed to like all frames. Warframe has a lot of variety in terms of frames and weapons so that people can find their favorites that fits in with their preferences. It's okay to not like Ash and not use him. There's no changes needed for THAT. Now - making his 4 a bit more intuitive - I'm all down for.

As for popularity, do we have stats for that? Also don't forget back then there weren't many frames at all compared to now. Of course there will be less Ashes running around.

[SECURATYYY]

Honestly the only problem with blade storm is the targeting. If you didn't have to look directly at every enemy it would be a godsend.

 

Also marking enemies 3 times makes it hard to tell how many different enemies are marked. Change the number to enemies, not how many marks. Or just do away with the marks because they're meh.

[CephalonWreaker]

well if you technically see the fact that ash is great in his current state if you see you take mesa with you and say you can clear the room under a blink of an eye mesa cannot strip enemy armor go invisible provide true damage the reason why bladestorm if reverted to old state would cause mess is that the true damage on it is good enough to kill almost every enemy on star chart ash's bladestorm is there to provide crowd control and a helping hand in clearing the ranged enemies (50 meter range is not bad at all) if you want that he marks enemies through the walls then see mesa's peacemaker and tell me if she can hit them through walls no she cannot where as the shuriken ash has are literal aimbots that can go through walls he is supposed to be dps and stealth mix with bit of cc his whole kit is usable provided you know what you are doing as i said i don't even run with vitality and redirection on him he doesn't need them he is not a tank like inaros who needs that much health his smoke screen is there to save him and give him survivability i took down a thumper with him today and had no problem considering my health many would think i would just die sitting there but its not the case he is much more focused on solo play than the team play 

max to max the QoL changes i think he needs is some smoke screen duration buff like 2-3 seconds more for people who don't have access to a narrow minded (a rank 7 is great and range can be countered by stretch if wanted)