Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

[LSG501]

12 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I personally believe there should be a non permanent reward, things that decay or lose effects with time. 

One of the reasons void missions are still farmed, you can't have a stack of argon crystals for life. 

And most people I know HATE the fact that argon expires...

Echoes of Umbra was basically panned as an idea because it expired...

 

 

As to cop out ways of sustainability.... stupidly low rng drop chance would be more accurate than just rng, rng is fine if the chance is 'fair', I don't know anyone that I play with that approves of 2% or less in some cases drop chance on missions that, and lets be honest here, are incredibly repetitive and have very little if any variation between runs.  Hell even the new 'end game' content with disruption has a pattern to the spawns of the demolysts/demolishers which is really easy to pick up after a few runs on the map.   

As said above, the 'removal' of abilities or their effects so we're basically just shooting the enemy is another cop out imo as well.

I'm also kind of seeing releasing prime frames/weapons as a cop out for sustainable content too, it's not really new content, it's just a new model and a few changes to the stats...when I first started I was like ooh, I want the shiny upgraded version, now I'm just like oh another one to farm (which then feeds into the other sustainable issues) and then repeat the usual grind to level it up a few times.  It also feels worse when you've only just had 'reworks' and as such went back and adjusted builds and maybe levelled up the non prime a short while earlier (wukong was really bad on this, atlas isn't that long ago either). 

[Corvid]

9 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

there's no point to arguing with him, he has his own reality or he is just a troll, I am suspecting the latter

Or, hear me out, maybe he actually disagrees with you. Shocking, I know.

[DeMonkey]

2 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Yes, OP should have stated that it is his opinion, may get misunderstood by people otherwise.

That's all I care about.

Making out that DE removing raids since they were only played by a minority is a bad thing is a fine opinion.

But just saying that DE removed raids since they were only played by a monopolising minority is not, it ignores the actual stated reasons and construes the decision as something negative and arguably short sighted.

I could say that no one plays Vauban because the community are worthless scumbags afraid of putting effort in, and whilst it may be true for some, it's not the only reason nor is it a fair representation of the community or Vauban.

Shrug

I personally do want raids back, and yes, the Arcanes were overpriced due to how few players were running raids, but they were in themselves an utter travesty of a game mode. If DE say they weren't worth consistently fixing at that time and that's why they were removing them, I can totally understand and accept that as a valid reason.

[Loza03]

Regardless of what you define endgame as, there needs to be a strong foundation of gameplay to support it. If the game's not fun enough intrinsically, then no 'endgame' mode will ever truly suffice.

Warframe's foundation, its core gameplay is certainly strong enough, but as of what's built upon it, what endgame would be built upon? There's far too much automation. Like it or not, endgame ultimately means engagement. Whether that's tough enemies, or tougher objectives, or lasting longer, it doesn't matter, if the gameplay isn't fun then it's pointless. The best designed missions can and will provide nothing without good gameplay - the worst can provide endless fun with good gameplay. See also: Devil May Cry 4, specifically Dante's half. There's some awful level design since none of the areas he's traversing were designed for him - or, frankly, for going backwards through. But DMC4 is still pretty damn awesome, because the gameplay - especially Dante's - is so good. People still lasted on it for 10 years whilst waiting for 5

And let me tell you, gameplay like that isn't found through having one button do it all for you. And I mean that for my own favourite frame too.

DE is moving towards something that could have a sustainable endgame - like them or not, frames like Gauss, Wisp, Hildryn, reworked Wukong, they all require engagement to maintain their power level. But we're not there yet.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Loza03

[Gabbynaru]

Good content you wanna play and replay of your own volition is the best, most replayable and sustainable content. Which the game has plenty of, but after thousands of hours, even that will become dull. We're all just way too spoiled by how good and engaging this game is, aren't we?

[kyori]

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

To me, true endgame content is meant for people who are completely done with all "normal" content and have the best(or close to) gear available and know all the ins and outs of the game and have accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes.

By this logic, the whole game is now endgame to me. 

[BlackVortex]

7 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Or, hear me out, maybe he actually disagrees with you. Shocking, I know.

I guess you could disagree on facts, so lets take that discussion away:

On numerous Devstreams we have mentioned/discussed the future of Trials. On Devstream 75, Scott mentioned “We are looking to repurpose existing Raid content to make the game mode accessible for lower-level players while also preparing them for this end-game content as they continue to progress.”

as has been mentioned here:

 

the argument can be distilled from: make the game mode accessible for lower-level players (you can fill in the gaps that "more accessible" means too many players were not able to do them)
considering they want lower-level players to be able to participate effectively kills it as endgame content

[BlackVortex]

5 minutes ago, kyori said:

By this logic, the whole game is now endgame to me. 

could you explain that?

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

"We are looking to repurpose existing Raid content to make the game mode accessible for lower-level players while also preparing them for this end-game content as they continue to progress.”

Based on:

3 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

the argument can be distilled from: make the game mode accessible for lower-level players (you can fill in the gaps that "more accessible" means too many players were not able to do them)
considering they want lower-level players to be able to participate effectively kills it as endgame content

You're grossly misunderstanding what that sentence means.

Edited September 24, 2019 by DeMonkey

[0_The_F00l]

2 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

DE is moving towards something that could have a sustainable endgame - like them or not, frames like Gauss, Wisp, Hildryn, reworked Wukong, they all require engagement to maintain their power level. But we're not there yet.

Yes, there has been more emphasis on action and less on mere presence Saryn, banshee were reworked for the same reason. (Saryn rework kinda turned on itself, but that is only for eso and small enclosure missions) 

DE does dislike AFK playstyles, 

The demolysts that cleanse themselves of abilities effects was something I really liked as it too needs people to be active. Wouldn't mind some bosses like that. 

And I do agree that warframe already has a strong foundation (if I compare it to a building it's like a condo with half its floors having its beams exposed and other half with a glass facade - conclave is probably in the basement which has water logging ) 

It's not falling down but it's clearly not finished yet and needs some fixing in some areas. 

For endgame... I don't really know, but the new mod that damages you every time you kill an enemy gives me ideas. 

 

A game mode where you take damage with every kill, and you need to avoid killing while doing whatever, but killing drops certain objects needed to progress as well. 

 

[kyori]

2 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

To me, true endgame content is meant for people who are completely done with all "normal" content and have the best(or close to) gear available and know all the ins and outs of the game and have accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes.

Quote

people who are completely done with all "normal" content

checked

Quote

have the best(or close to) gear available

checked

Quote

know all the ins and outs of the game

checked

Quote

accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes

checked

 

The whole game is endgame to me now. lmao

[RX-3DR]

12 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

the argument can be distilled from: make the game mode accessible for lower-level players (you can fill in the gaps that "more accessible" means too many players were not able to do them)
considering they want lower-level players to be able to participate effectively kills it as endgame content

If a company decides to take down a line of mobile phones because the batteries are prone to spontaneously combust from overheating and they address after that they intend to improve usability as well due to poor ergonomics and UI in their next line, it does not mean that they recalled the product to make it usable for kids.

You are making leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. They took Trials out due to constant overhead maintenace and they want to improve its user friendliness in its next iteration. That's what it means. Also, just because it doesn't show up in any patch notes doesn't mean there aren't problems.

[BlackVortex]

4 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

If a company decides to take down a line of mobile phones because the batteries are prone to spontaneously combust from overheating and they address after that they intend to improve usability as well due to poor ergonomics and UI in their next line, it does not mean that they recalled the product to make it usable for kids.

You are making leaps of logic to come to your conclusion. They took Trials out due to constant overhead maintenace and they want to improve its user friendliness in its next iteration. That's what it means. Also, just because it doesn't show up in any patch notes doesn't mean there aren't problems.

that might be true, but since I have supplied you with a quote + source from DE supporting my argument, would you be so kind to do at least the same?

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by BlackVortex

[-Kittens-]

21 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

I guess you could disagree on facts, so lets take that discussion away:

On numerous Devstreams we have mentioned/discussed the future of Trials. On Devstream 75, Scott mentioned “We are looking to repurpose existing Raid content to make the game mode accessible for lower-level players while also preparing them for this end-game content as they continue to progress.”

as has been mentioned here:

 

the argument can be distilled from: make the game mode accessible for lower-level players (you can fill in the gaps that "more accessible" means too many players were not able to do them)
considering they want lower-level players to be able to participate effectively kills it as endgame content

They key part of that you apparently didn't see was feb 7 2018.

It's fixing to be feb 7 2020, and what endgame was there did not come back, and nothing replaced it. Meanwhile there is plenty of new early and midgame content including railjack; hmm, a conundrum.

[BlackVortex]

5 minutes ago, kyori said:

checked

checked

checked

checked

 

The whole game is endgame to me now. lmao

I don't know how you got there

I said:
true endgame content is meant for people who....<insert your checklist>

how do you tie that to current content?

[BlackVortex]

3 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

They key part of that you apparently didn't see was feb 7 2018.

It's fixing to be feb 7 2020, and what endgame was there did not come back, and nothing replaced it. Meanwhile there is plenty of new early and midgame content including railjack; hmm, a conundrum.

what key part did I not see?

[Nerf_SupYo]

Or just find other games to play between events, there are about 2 billion (and five) to choose from. Diversify your entertainment grasshopper...

[0_The_F00l]

54 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

And most people I know HATE the fact that argon expires...

Doesn't change the fact that you still need to go to the void to get the crystals. Imagine if more resources decayed at variable rates (due to rust, rot, evaporation etc.) 

57 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Echoes of Umbra was basically panned as an idea because it expired...

Partially, 

The whole concept of sentient frames is pointless without an AI that is more than a glorified aimbot. 

Maybe if I could modify my frame stats slightly for a limited time I would be more inclined. 

[ranks21]

1 hour ago, 844448 said:

Is there any kind of sustainable content from other games you see that doesn't rely on any of these factors? Put it here

Skyrim

you can pick up this game and still find something that will affect the gameplay even after you've poured thousands of hrs into it, and the whole experience /story will also differ per character used.

Edited September 24, 2019 by ranks21

[AuroraSonicBoom]

What you describe as endgame I describe as a farce. Inflated enemy numbers and super low drop rates are a staple of what you consider "real endgame", something online games have resorted to ever since Everquest or even earlier. All it does, though, in most cases, is restrict your gear choice and tactics you're able to use further in exchange for rewards that lose their appeal like anything else in the game once you get them. It's an unsustainable game design not worthy of the descriptor 'endgame'

Endgame in the truest sense of the word has two main elements that in conjunction with one another form an experience that you would classify as such. First, your character and gear has unlocked their full potential, maximum armor, damage and defenses, or whatever stat you want to excel in. There is no way for you to get more powerful, get another "+1" to your stats. You're at the top, and you don't have to concern yourself going back to grinding for ultimately meaningless stat increases the excitement of which is lost a play session after you acquired them.

The second element is a gameplay loop that allows you to gain enjoyment repeating the same content over and over, which reward you not with better gear or more skill points to use, but with a sense of agency, a feeling that all that torture you put yourself through to max out your character is actually paying off in a way that transcends the results of a single mission. In other words, content that can sustain itself by being dynamic, and gives the player a feeling of agency.

For PvP, achieving that is relatively simple, since the players are a large part of the content themselves, responsible for the sense of dynamicism and progress. It only takes one great map design to give players interested in that gamemode a way to attain a sense of accomplishment(thanks for poisoning that term, EA), and leaderboards are an easy way to chronicle their feats. In addition, interpersonal relationships and rivalries between clans are part of the PvP experience as well. More good maps to play on are always a big plus, but that doesn't change the fact that creating an engaging, long lasting PvP experience takes comparatively little effort.

PvE endgame is a lot more difficult to describe and achieve, particularly for cooperative scenarios, since it has been distorted by what MMO's have done in the last two decades. To create an endgame loop in PvE that checks off both of the aforementioned gameplay elements, you need both an at least somewhat difficult content, and a way to reward the player without dangling more stat carrots in front of them, and instead recognize their deeds on a level that transcends missions and even game sessions. Sure, there are PvE leaderboards for endless missions, but since they're not very visible and more importantly cater to the competitive types, they're not a very good way to engage the average coop PvE player.

Remember how I've mentioned that in PvP the players themselves are a big part of the content? Well, in PvE that isn't true. Yes, other players, for the most part, enhance your gameplay experience, but they're not nearly as integral to your enjoyment as an opponent is for a PvP player. They can improve your sense of agency by supporting and buffing you, but that's a far cry from focusing your entire attention on beating them.

So, what can a PvE game environment do in order to replicate that? The answer, just like the problem, is more complex than simple pitting players against one another, and that's also why the endless gear treadmill as pseudo endgame content has been adopted by so many, if not nearly all game devs. What you need in order to give PvE player the same sense of agency and satisfaction a PvP player gets from demolishing a rival clan with his clanmates in a tournament, is to turn a static theme park of a game world into a leaving, breathing sandbox environment for the player or players to interact and affect permanently, or in shared game worlds at least semi permanently.

Think about it. What do a lot of players of single player games do when they're done with all the story content, achievements and collectibles? If the game allows for it, they'll mess around in the world trying to get it to react to them as much as the game allows. Massacring one faction of NPCs so another gains dominance and occupies the towns, raping and pillaging innocent villagers, just to turn against them and clean them out, allowing for the original faction to make a comeback, but not before a band of thieves takes the opportunity to swoop in and clean out the town hall treasury. Watching the returning faction being unable to pay their guards and turn to you, asking you to return the stolen treasure or provide them with other ways of paying their soldiers.

I believe that is an essential part of a PvE endgame experience. Not being forced to play alongside 20 other people for months, for a tiny chance of getting a +4 stam to your leather belt against hordes of mobs that you have killed so many times that they've merged into an indiscriminate blob, but making you feel like you're actually having an effect on the game world. Sadly, the only times warframe had any sort of mechanics in place that came anywhere close to this concept where the Gradivus dilemma event, and the initial implementation of the invasion system. People probably don't remember, but there was a time when the player base as a whole decided to keep supporting the Grineer after they started invading pluto. This resulted in the entire planet getting occupied by Grineer forces for weeks, until DE had to physically change the code to prevent that from ever happening again. What we have no is a pale shadow of that system, castrated and beheaded to not inconvenience any players for more than a day. That's not to say I don't agreed with DE's decision to balance the effects invasions had/have on uninvolved players, but they've taken out the essence of what invasions were supposed to do to the game an relegated them to little more than a glorified temporary alert.

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, RX-3DR said:

A lot of people are unwilling to describe what their vision of endgame is beyond "difficult, challenging and only the top best can do it" because it sounds really bad when you actually go into details on what actually needs to happen in the mission.

Well said.

 

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

End Game
3. In MMORPG. Used to describe the playing done by people who have reached the maximum progression and/or the most advanced content currently available.

This definition is closer to a general guideline and needs further adjustments in case by case scenario.
What is maximum progression in Warframe?  At this point, it is even difficult to say what is "best" gear (excluding mods, since this is self-explanatory).
"Most advanced content currently available" implies, there is always "endgame". To add your own words...

2 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

To me, true endgame content is meant for people who [...] have accumulated enough skill to be able to clear the game solo and go on for a long time(+1 hour) in endurance modes.

The question is, is endgame engaging? If not, why?

Instead, people here are arguing against a straw man called "reasons raids are gone".

[RX-3DR]

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

that might be true, but since I have supplied you with a quote + source from DE supporting my argument, would you be so kind to do at least the same?

Devstream with timestamp to the portion where they discuss Trials. You owe me one considering that your point isn't even supported by the source you're presenting and you're even admitting it so.

"The upkeep on them is particularly endless, for three years it seems every hotfix we have to have something in it. Every hotfix thread is just fix fix fix fix this." -DE Rebecca, 2018

Imagine having to constantly fix things every other day with Trials because one new bug came up that completely stopped progression. And after you fix that, a day later, people are reporting that they've gotten to the next part and it's also busted because no one could reach that point. Essentially, if they didn't have to fix it constantly, they could have easily left it on the fringe, the problem is that they're constantly trying to fix something that so distant from regular game,

Edited September 24, 2019 by RX-3DR

[BlackVortex]

2 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

This definition is closer to a general guideline and needs further adjustments in case by case scenario.
What is maximum progression in Warframe?  At this point, it is even difficult to say what is "best" gear (excluding mods, since this is self-explanatory).
"Most advanced content currently available" implies, there is always "endgame". To add your own words...

the definition is indeed more of a guideline, but as I said, it's what I consider to be endgame and why we will probably not have that
my definition is based on my own experience in many other online games i've played over the last 20 years
in certain MMORPG games there is a max level and once that level is reached "endgame" content becomes available, but that's basically where skill, teamplay and gear come into play for the success rate of that content

in Warframe best gear I would say, owning all the mods that matter, having them all maxed out, having every weapon and frame, having all the arcanes at rank 3, but there is a lot of wiggle room there since some arcanes are actually quite trash(and so are some frames and weapons and are definitely not required for said content)

you have a valid point saying according to the specification of: "Most advanced content currently available" there is always endgame, but when newer players are able to step into that content, I myself and I think many others cannot regard that as endgame content since it's already accessible to those newer players

[MakubexKido]

ok, enough of these BS posts that keeps asking the same question

let me just tell you the secret why we dont have endgame in warframe, DE has safeguarded this secret for year's but i guess you plebs deserve an answer

 

the reason why DE hasnt made any endgame content is because
 

endgame as we know it, will be the end of warframe , get it  ?
every mmo that released an endgame content has faced the inevitable doom
so the solution DE made to prevent the cataclysmic event that will lead to warframe's downfall
is to keep the beta status in a perpetual state

thats how Warframe survived the test of time
thats how warframe kept growing after all these years

 

[BlackVortex]

7 minutes ago, RX-3DR said:

Devstream with timestamp to the portion where they discuss Trials. You owe me one considering that your point isn't even supported by the source you're presenting and you're even admitting it so.

"The upkeep on them is particularly endless, for three years it seems every hotfix we have to have something in it. Every hotfix thread is just fix fix fix fix this." -DE Rebecca, 2018

Imagine having to constantly fix things every other day with Trials because one new bug came up that completely stopped progression. And after you fix that, a day later, people are reporting that they've gotten to the next part and it's also busted because no one could reach that point. Essentially, if they didn't have to fix it constantly, they could have easily left it on the fringe, the problem is that they're constantly trying to fix something that so distant from regular game,

they clearly mentioned it in Devstream #106 which is 31 Devstreams after the Devstream where they mentioned one of the earlier reasons they wanted to remove Raids: the argument I mentioned
I am not saying the arguments you mentioned aren't another reason for them to have removed them, but what I am saying is that my argument is definitely one of the reasons why they initially wanted to shut down raids