Wondering what kind of challenge and content we can have in warframe

[o0Despair0o]

3 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

EDIT for TLDNR:
Endgame content is aimed towards the top 5-10% of the players.
DE probably doesn't want to create content that only 5-10% of the players are able to play, hence we don't have true endgame content.

I'd say the reason is that 10% of the 10% are Super-Elite Tryhards who think it's too easy, and the rest are complaining about it being too hard, and when they try to balance it, everything goes down the drain.

 

I would suggest making a special mission that requires Max Mastery and puts you in an area against 500 level 300+ eximus bombards, rollers and scorpions, with permanent energy drain and no shields.

That way the tryhards can have in in their little circle-youknowwhat while the rest gets to enjoy the game.

[Serafim_94]

Raids were bad because the hardest and most challenging part of them was gathering 8 people to actually do them. Without anybody getting disconnected, or disappearing during toilet break. In any MMO, any content taking more than 5 people always felt to me like manager's job.

[Voltage]

My opinion? Sustainable and grindy content caters to an audience that doesn't really make up the player base of Warframe.

For Warframe to have content that is long lasting, it must involve grind in some fashion. Focus does not do this because the grind has been lessened to the point of being trivial with a few Adaro runs at Mastery Rank 27 and some Hydrolysts captures. Grind however is taboo in the majority of this playerbase, so there is little room for DE to make anything take more than a few hours to get without being shunned on Reddit or the Forums (see: Kuva/Rivens, Hema, Vauban Prime launch, Nitain Extract complaints, Plains of Eidolon changes being well received, etc.) We could have real depth and sustainable content through open world and such, but Tusk Thumpers are more well received.

The people who love the gameplay stick around, but progression and long term grind is a mess and quite shallow (keeping it bite size).

Edited September 24, 2019 by Voltage

[Alexcavalera]

Economic issues, that would be my bet.
Of thoose 5-10% players that "need" end game content, how many still buy Plat ( gives money do Dev's)?
Now,in the noobs/begginner group,  how many buy Plat (gives money do Dev's)???
That's the real question here....

[LSG501]

52 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Doesn't change the fact that you still need to go to the void to get the crystals. Imagine if more resources decayed at variable rates (due to rust, rot, evaporation etc.) 

 

And then we don't go there again because there is literally no other reason to go there.... forcing players to excessively farm is never going to end well.  Making a resource essentially useless outside of the day you get it is just stupidity imo when you consider the way players play the game....

I've wasted so many argon crystals because they expire that whenever I see argon as a requirement I literally go ffs because I know I have none and have to hope rng gives me some when I run a void map... and it doesn't always do that.

We still see players commenting about the fact they hate the way argon expires, we still see players moaning over the farming of the hema resources and we had PoE and OV gain easier ways to get resources because players didn't like the excessive farming....  

56 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

The whole concept of sentient frames is pointless without an AI that is more than a glorified aimbot. 

Maybe if I could modify my frame stats slightly for a limited time I would be more inclined. 

While AI of spectres is an issue in general the majority hate the fact it was temporary and required constant farming...

[BlackVortex]

14 minutes ago, o0Despair0o said:

I'd say the reason is that 10% of the 10% are Super-Elite Tryhards who think it's too easy, and the rest are complaining about it being too hard, and when they try to balance it, everything goes down the drain.

 

I would suggest making a special mission that requires Max Mastery and puts you in an area against 500 level 300+ eximus bombards, rollers and scorpions, with permanent energy drain and no shields.

That way the tryhards can have in in their little circle-youknowwhat while the rest gets to enjoy the game.

I prefer speedrunning Profit-Taker solo, although it gets really tedious after a while.
I don't care too much about mob level, but something that the Raids did: mandatory coordinated team play

perhaps the stationary method in the Raids do deserve some sort of overhaul, but it is this kind of interaction where you are forced to actually talk to people to make the Raid a success

I have a very good experience with Raiding with groups where you form steady groups where everyone knows what to do and after a while your team is so good that you are able to clear the Raid in 10 minutes or less
obviously this does remove the challenging element when your team gets that good, but in all honestly, no same content will be challenging forever unless its filled with RNG, which to me creates tedious gameplay

that being said, there is a dark side to this, which became more and more apparent in the old Raids:
steady experienced groups would never take in new players who could make the mission fail so for players who wanted to start raiding it was always very hard to get a group which was able to succeed, which ended in most players just never doing raids
I can tell from experience this was a thing, from our perspective, we wanted to clear all 3 raids in 30 minutes so we could use all the boosters for credit/focus farming and a non-experienced player will add time which means less time to use the boosters after the raids

Edited September 24, 2019 by BlackVortex

[BlackVortex]

3 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Raids were bad because the hardest and most challenging part of them was gathering 8 people to actually do them. Without anybody getting disconnected, or disappearing during toilet break. In any MMO, any content taking more than 5 people always felt to me like manager's job.

you could actually speedrun a raid faster with 4 people than with 8

[Serafim_94]

1 минуту назад, BlackVortex сказал:

you could actually speedrun a raid faster with 4 people than with 8

Which was a whole different can of worms to open, trying to find people knowing what to do while not being elitist jerks about it.

"H Tridolon 60 captures min".

[BlackVortex]

Just now, Serafim_94 said:

Which was a whole different can of worms to open, trying to find people knowing what to do while not being elitist jerks about it.

"H Tridolon 60 captures min".

 

5 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

that being said, there is a dark side to this, which became more and more apparent in the old Raids:
steady experienced groups would never take in new players who could make the mission fail so for players who wanted to start raiding it was always very hard to get a group which was able to succeed, which ended in most players just never doing raids
I can tell from experience this was a thing, from our perspective, we wanted to clear all 3 raids in 30 minutes so we could use all the boosters for credit/focus farming and a non-experienced player will add time which means less time to use the boosters after the raids

 

10 minutes ago, Serafim_94 said:

Without anybody getting disconnected, or disappearing during toilet break.

we used to run Raids with a pool of people which would at times split up into two Raids groups on a daily basis for months, and these things were no big issues for us but I have to admit, it did happen and then you had to wait until they reconnected

[Akai-no-bara]

Yes, the ever present mass of casuals. I would feel very down if there wasn't so many of them to walk upon.

[BlackVortex]

59 minutes ago, AuroraSonicBoom said:

What you describe as endgame...

not sure if you aimed the inflated mob levels at me, but I agree this is not the way to create endgame content by just focusing on that aspect (although the levels need to be high enough so that it's still challenging for maxed out gear, not being able to one-shot every mob with an MK1-Braton with mediocre mods)

Pretty much everything else you said I agree on, but to me I actually had a lot of fun playing PVP before it got overhauled because of the ridiculous tactics you would see from players

at some point the meta was loki+ogris, which I simply countered with ember's WoF and people who would run perfect scored would start crying because they couldn't even get a kill in with their ever so powerful meta
but because many people just copypaste other PVPers they dont succeed in coming up with an effective counter strategy for this until someone else shows them

I think your idea of PvE endgame in a dynamic world is one of the best ways to do it in a PvE game (I played ArcheAge which was pretty much like that and more), but in Warframe and the way that squadhosting works, this is not an option unless DE drastically changes the game concept (which is very unlikely)

which brings us to the question, what true endgame content is possible within the boundaries of Warframe

also, would you consider something to be endgame if it was still grinding, but purely for cosmetics?

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by BlackVortex

[0_The_F00l]

17 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

And then we don't go there again because there is literally no other reason to go there.... forcing players to excessively farm is never going to end well.  Making a resource essentially useless outside of the day you get it is just stupidity imo when you consider the way players play the game....

I've wasted so many argon crystals because they expire that whenever I see argon as a requirement I literally go ffs because I know I have none and have to hope rng gives me some when I run a void map... and it doesn't always do that.

We still see players commenting about the fact they hate the way argon expires, we still see players moaning over the farming of the hema resources and we had PoE and OV gain easier ways to get resources because players didn't like the excessive farming....  

While AI of spectres is an issue in general the majority hate the fact it was temporary and required constant farming...

Exactly, people moan, and they still go and get it after they are done moaning. 

Not saying it's the best way with no issues, but it is definitely one way. 

I was more speaking something like stat boosters which need decaying resources and have a cap, 

Say... something that boosts efficiency for a few hours and needs some specific resource you can only have one of (like the older kubrow eggs for example ) that is having high probability or is assured of dropping from a node along with a decaying item like argon from a different node 

So you are inclined to Ocassionally go to that node with the guaranteed item. As well as the place with the argon, you build the efficiency booster and try things out with one frame if you enjoy it you now have another build to experiment and optimize 

Similar things can be done for other attributes. 

[(XBOX)Hyperion Rexx]

End game is needed.

Two reasons.  Firstly it keeps vets involved who are incredibly important for the health of the game.  Who's going to help the new players, organise clans etc otherwise?

Secondly, it gives low to mid rank players something to aim for and a real reason to keep grinding.  Players need goals to stay engaged.

As to what constitutes end game? That's the million dollar question and it certainly isn't just a room full of lvl 300 bombards.   It needs to be replayable in it's own right though, you need to get a sense of achievement from being able to complete it so at the end you're giving each back slaps regardless of the rewards.

[Akai-no-bara]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

As to what constitutes end game? That's the million dollar question and it certainly isn't just a room full of lvl 300 bombards.   It needs to be replayable in it's own right though, you need to get a sense of achievement from being able to complete it so at the end you're giving each back slaps regardless of the rewards.

Hats. I think DE would make 1kk dollars just from slots for fedoras.

[mikakor]

Kuva for me would be sustainable end game. I think the true reason why kuva farming as of now is so hated is because...

1 : you get almost nothing from kuva farming. Just SMALL quantities of it.

2 : once you're in 10 and more roll, it takes 3500 kuva to roll. That's a lot of kuva needed.

3 : the roll is not even assured to give something good. You have no way to "progress" in a riven what do ever. Like locking stats that you like, partially increasing a roll cost, but actually working toward something.

4 : DE has universally been greedy while giving kuva farming ways... Until a game mode with a rotation reward = one roll, it's never going to be Enough. ( Imagine a kuva defense where one rotation gives around 3500, or one riven roll. )

 

But if these aspects could be improved, a lot more players would participate in riven hunting.

 

 

( Sustainable, but of course won't be for everyone, of course. )

Edited September 24, 2019 by mikakor

[844448]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Hyperion Rexx said:

End game is needed.

Two reasons.  Firstly it keeps vets involved who are incredibly important for the health of the game.  Who's going to help the new players, organise clans etc otherwise?

Secondly, it gives low to mid rank players something to aim for and a real reason to keep grinding.  Players need goals to stay engaged.

As to what constitutes end game? That's the million dollar question and it certainly isn't just a room full of lvl 300 bombards.   It needs to be replayable in it's own right though, you need to get a sense of achievement from being able to complete it so at the end you're giving each back slaps regardless of the rewards.

Riven mod it is

[AuroraSonicBoom]

1 hour ago, BlackVortex said:

I think your idea of PvE endgame in a dynamic world is one of the best ways to do it in a PvE game (I played ArcheAge which was pretty much like that and more), but in Warframe and the way that squadhosting works, this is not an option unless DE drastically changes the game concept (which is very unlikely)

which brings us to the question, what true endgame content is possible within the boundaries of Warframe

also, would you consider something to be endgame if it was still grinding, but purely for cosmetics?

Spoiler

 

Well, you can adapt the concept of a truly living world for warframe, as far as I'm concerned. I've outlined my view on it multiple times over the years, but what it basically boils down is this: Make every mission a player does, from the MR3 noob to the 7k hour playtime MR27, have an effect on the state of the gameworld, regardless of how small it is. Giving every location(planet) on the chart a set of stats that are altered as the players do different missions at those locations.

Like a grand strategy game or a tabletop DND game, every planet has a set of common stats, and a few unique ones that define its worth to enemy factions vying for control over it. Attributes like troop strength, tech level, reserves, security, intelligence, fleet integrity, risk of infestation outbreak, risk of sentient invasion(for the future) and the like every location has to one degree or another, while unique ones such as sentient research, rare minerals, faction stronghold, production center, and others can be unique to certain planet that are known for them in the lore. Each of these attributes would be affected by players playing missions, and while a single player has a small effect on the progression of the world state, the playerbase as a whole could affect it quite quickly in comparison. As mission objectives are completed it decreases the value of some more than others. A Tenno breaking into Jupiter spy vaults would affect that location's intelligence, security and possibly sentient invasion risk more so than its troop strength or fleet integrity. Another Tenno wiping out all live on a vessel in Orbit affects the troop strength of that faction much more than their tech level.

Every stat has an innate rate of regeneration, which allows a location unaffected by the Tenno to recuperate, but it's low enough to not diminish a player's effects on the stats too much. Furthermore, each mission type corresponds to a certain decrease in a location's stats, which in turn increases the likelihood of an enemy faction to invade. Each location would have different thresholds for their likelihood of being invaded, meaning that a super low tech level on Mercury doesn't increase a node's chance of being invaded nearly as much as a low tech level on a location dependent on tech, like Neptune. It'd be weighed differently. (i.e. Mercury at 20% TL * 1, vs. Neptune's at 20% * 1.5). Who neighbours the locations and their state matters as well, but let's not lose ourselves in details here.

So far, nothing has happened in terms of the game world. That's about to change. Once enemy location has chosen to invade the location, things go as usual. The invasion rewards may be more or less generous depending on some of the stats of the invading and defending factions. An attacking faction with a low tech level is more likely to offer resources than weapon parts. You get the point. Now, let's say the invasion proceeds and players happen to support both sides to equal degrees. Each completed mission in these invasions continues to affect the faction, so a ship sabotage decreases fleet integrity, exterminates troop strength, while modes like defenses and survivals not only decrease the opposing faction's stats, they also give the faction you're fighting for a boost in the regeneration rate of certain attributes, like security, troop strength and so on. A defense fought on a Corpus cruiser will delay or even stop its destruction, increasing the fleet integrity regen rate a little. The bar players see on an invasion screen is the summary of the invading force's stats weighed against the defending ones. The invasion ends with either the attacking faction's troop strength and fleet integrity sinking below a certain point, or the defending faction's troop strength and security.

Now let's say the invasion was successful and the attacking faction has taken a node. As long as that faction has occupied the node, the regeneration of the location's attributes the invasion came form will be reduced, simulating a drain on resources and assets in order to hold that node. On the flipside, the regeneration rate of the defending faction's attributes, minus any unique attributes the occupied node would add, increases. This is one of the balance mechanisms ensuring that no invasion will last forever. While the basic instance of the occupied node will do nothing more than switch factions, there will be be a second instance of the node initiated once the the defending faction's stats are strong enough to attempt a retaking. Now, here's where the real fun starts. The more time passes in the real world, the faster the regeneration rate of the defending factions grows, and once it passes 100%, which is the standard value, every added percent of troop strength, tech level, or similar attributes related to the units, will increase the base level of the enemy on the counter invasion instance of the node by 50%. So a level occupied level 20 node with a defending troop strength of 102% and a tech level of 103%, will increase the enemy starting level to 50.

Should the attacking faction, whose allied NPC starting level is also affected by their origin location's attributes, be able to defend the node, they might have the strength to expand their influence to a neighbouring node, invading that it well. Now here's the crux. The less nodes the defending faction has to take care of, the higher their attribute regeneration rate, the higher level the attackers have to fight and the more spread our their own resources become, lowering their attribute regeneration rate. In the end, only a very coordinated mass of dedicated players equipped to handle these missions will be able to make the occupation last for any amount of time, but eventually they'll fail, at which point, the attacker lines collapse and they're driven out of the location completely. However, something you can do if you want to support an invasion, even though you aren't equipped to fighting enemies of that level is weakening the defending faction by completing missions at the same location, which aren't currently being invaded or occupied.

Now, what do players get out of it other than the challenge of seeing how far they can help a faction occupy a planet? Recognition. The top scoring players are able to equip themed armor sets and titles for as long as their achievements havent been surpassed by others. When it does, the title and any cosmetics associated with it moves to a new player, which can now brandish the armor and title of "Slayer of Neptune" or something more creative. This also creates a neat little incentive for title holders to switch sides and defend the location they previously helped occupy to prevent their title from being usurped. 

A big thing I forgot to mention is that certain attributes of unplayed nodes on locations would increase beyond 100% even outside of an invasion scenario, like reserves or rare minerals. The result of this would be increased drop chances and amounts for resources, enticing players to play on those nodes, which decreases their attributes again, creating a reason for them to play unpopular mission nodes.

I gotta stop myself here because I'm getting too verbose, but you get the idea. There's lots more I have on my mind, particularly in regards to lowered attributes of certain locations affecting enemy spawns across the gameworld during the invasion. Bottom line is, I believe you can turn warframe into a breathing, living world that is affected by its players' actions, and I think it'd be a huge change if every single player in the game would suddenly feel like that them playing missions does have an actual, despite small, effect on the game.

 

 

[WingR84]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 844448:

Riven mod it is

What logic is that? Yes... rivens make you stronger, but for what? You dont need a riven to do high level missions.
You can do 3hour survivals... for that you dont need a riven but a setup with octavia and necros in a dead end room... that's it.

I got my rivens, but the reason why i got them is because i want to become stronger in the hope that there will be stuff to do, because as it is right now you dont need any warframe skills at all to do a 25min axi survival. For what do you need a archgun riven? I mean you can melt profittaker with it... but when you are strong enoth to farm the riven you're also strong enoth to kill PT.

We will get the Tao system in the future, so i farm and hope for stuff that only people with good gear can kill... but otherwise there is no game once you've finished the story, because there is only MR farming and other stuff that you dont need for your gameplay at all... it just makes you more overkill

[(PSN)Midcall]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb BlackVortex:

That being said, the amount of people in Warframe that are in that stage of the game is probably less than 10% of all players.

Before i read the rest of this post, do u have any data or is this just speculation ? I would say its more like 70%. But thats speculation.

[Aldain]

There's no endgame because there is no unified power/progression schema that can outline what progress is.

When there are differences in damage and durability that are LITERAL MILLIONS of damage there is no design that can appropriately accommodate either side, if you go towards the lower end you have "TOO EASY" complaints and if you go to the absolute limits that Warframe can reach you basically have a different game at that point.

Warframe has no endgame because its numbers scale is complete Alice-in-Wonderland tier nonsense.

[(PSN)ImTheOx]

Endgame is a different thing in the head of each individual. 

For older players like me, endgame is good team play and conquering a hard lvl with great team coordination and style. 

For the other 99.99999% is Battleroyal. 

Thats why endgame will never exist in modern games, becouse todays players prefer to play slotmachines and bash on eachother in forums. 

Thats also endgame. 

[844448]

7 hours ago, WingR84 said:

What logic is that? Yes... rivens make you stronger, but for what? You dont need a riven to do high level missions.
You can do 3hour survivals... for that you dont need a riven but a setup with octavia and necros in a dead end room... that's it.

I got my rivens, but the reason why i got them is because i want to become stronger in the hope that there will be stuff to do, because as it is right now you dont need any warframe skills at all to do a 25min axi survival. For what do you need a archgun riven? I mean you can melt profittaker with it... but when you are strong enoth to farm the riven you're also strong enoth to kill PT.

We will get the Tao system in the future, so i farm and hope for stuff that only people with good gear can kill... but otherwise there is no game once you've finished the story, because there is only MR farming and other stuff that you dont need for your gameplay at all... it just makes you more overkill

Is it really no game once you've finished the story? Or you don't consider the gameplay as game?

Isn't being stronger the purpose of riven? Strong enough is just being able to do it, why not being able to one shot instead? Also if endgame is needed because it gives something to aim and reason to keep grinding, riven mod fits as the endgame

[844448]

13 hours ago, ranks21 said:

Skyrim

you can pick up this game and still find something that will affect the gameplay even after you've poured thousands of hrs into it, and the whole experience /story will also differ per character used.

And it's single player game where your choice and such doesn't affect other players while multiplayer games rarely can have that

[Im_a_Turtle]

27 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And it's single player game where your choice and such doesn't affect other players while multiplayer games rarely can have that

Warframe is sort of like a semi-singleplayer if you think about it. You can play the entire game solo if you really wanted to and none of the decisions you make in-game will affect other players/factions at all (Other than syndicate headhunter groups).

Edited September 25, 2019 by Im_a_Turtle

[844448]

5 minutes ago, Im_a_Turtle said:

Warframe is sort of like a semi-singleplayer if you think about it. You can play the entire game solo if you really wanted to and none of the decisions you make in-game will affect other players/factions at all (Other than syndicate headhunter groups).

Doesn't mean it's single player because the story doesn't branch out based from our choice since they might be vastly different like the myconian if they're added in infested open world where those who choose to cure neewa means they're not harvesting the infested anymore (no myconian to work with)