saryn rework when?

[Djego27]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

Hey, that's all fine and dandy. You make good points and I suspect most players can deal massive damage to a single target. However once you introduce a horde shooting from multiple angles, that damage becomes less important.

Nerfing area damage doesn't make a frame any less squishy. Kudos for round 14 on disruption though 🙂

I suspect most players can not deal massive damage without broken mechanics/weapons, at least this is what I have seen over the years in Sortis. The massive damage against single targets actually does matter more at high levels given stuff like a Nox are much harder to kill than squishy L100 Bombards or Heavy gunners that might as well be just cannon fodder today. Also given that I have punch through on everything and spread on my weapons(DE nerfed it on the Detron /o\) hordes are not a big deal.

This was actually one of the weaknesses of Saryn 2.0 compared to options like Ember(that hit single targets much much harder) if you did stuff like 60 waves of Akkad solo on Saryn, given that you did spend most of the time after wave 50 per defence round to kill a few eximus(trash did just die by the AOE toxin transfers even at L150 nearly instant), given they where mostly immune to toxin and the only damage buff Saryn has is extra toxin damage.

Btw Saryn is not squishy, at least not compared to similar high level damage dealers like Volt, Ember, Mag etc. Also Saryn 2.0 did massive AOE damage, the difference was just that you had to learn how to play the frame and actively work for your damage, instead of shooting the molt for 20 waves and calling Saryn only good at low levels, what litterally everybody I seen with the frame back then did.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Djego27

[Pizzarugi]

34 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

There will never be a challanging engame in warframe if anything can be trivialized by the press of a button by a player that does not even understands what that button does.

Snipping a lot of the rest of your comment to keep the post small, also I agree with most of it too.

The problem Warframe has is that it never had any endgame, nothing substantial anyway that couldn't be overcome with a single frame ability or weapon mod combo that allowed the player to trivialize content. You only need to look at levels to get an idea. The highest we've got is level 100 which is limited to Kuva Flood and Sortie 3, both of which are only accessible every 1 to 24 hours. Meanwhile, the most recent content they pushed into the game were the Emissary Derelict missions which require running infested invasion missions which are always level 60 or below, on point with the star chart. With how long Warframe's been available for people to play, DE has not given players a real, proper endgame. The closest thing we've got to that are time-gated Sorties with its unique level modifiers that could make enemies hard to fight in the right circumstances, and Arbitration with the same reward tables in the first rotation all the way to the 3rd C before you eventually bail out of the mission just to start it again.

We already have frames and mod combos that allow a couple to run endless missions until enemies are thousands of levels high, yet there's no reason to.

From what I've seen with how this game has developed over years, it's safe to deduce that DE wants everything to be on the star chart, level 1-60 missions. It seems unlikely, highly unlikely in fact, that we'll ever see a true and proper endgame. There's no reason for frames like Saryn to exist with the level of power that she possesses, because literally nothing in the game is strong enough to warrant it being necessary. Same goes for other nuke frames like Mesa and Equinox and Volt. Same goes with Nidus's immortality and Revenant's infinite-scaling damage that can let them reach incredibly high endless mission levels.

Yet here we are, with frames so powerful that it encourages people who team up with them to not desire to learn anything about the game or what the shiny 4th button does. Why should they? Why should anyone be bothered to actually play the game when they know they have a high chance of teaming up with someone who doesn't really need them to complete the mission? Easy exp, easy resources, easy mission. And then they get burned out from the lack of challenge this game has and they quit to go find something else that is more engaging than a walking simulator.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Pizzarugi

[CuChulainnWD]

On 2019-10-02 at 1:06 PM, ReaverKane said:

Why not let them fix the actual unplayable frames before you start worrying with the warframes you're just annoyed because you can't be a "hero" when they're around.

FYI, i can outdamage Saryin with Volt and Equinox easily on Onslaught and on Hydron, and Volt is actually awesome for Eidonlons.
Also, i've out-damaged good Saryn players with Ember on Exterminates in that last year.

As Saryn can out damage Volt etc. It all depends on who clicks their ultimate first or host/client lag. The problem with Saryn working with Volt is that Volt insta kills targets. If you compared Saryn to Volt in solo play, Saryn's kill count and thus affinity generation is much higher than Volts. It is because spores allow for overlapping spawns. Insta kills cause a delay in respawning mobs. Thus with a continuous overlap of spores and respawn mobs, Saryn wipes the floor compared to other frames.

Edited October 4, 2019 by CuChulainnWD

[ReaverKane]

2 minutes ago, CuChulainnWD said:

As Saryn can out damage Volt etc. It all depends on who clicks their ultimate first or host/client lag. The problem with Saryn working with Volt is that Volt insta kills targets. If you compared Saryn to Volt in solo play, Saryn's kill count and thus affinity generation is much higher than Volts. It is because spores allow for overlapping spawns. Insta kills cause a delay in respawning mobs. Thus with a continuous overlap of spores and respawn mobs, Saryn wipes the floor compared to other frames.

You obvious don't know how volt works.
Volt's Ultimate sticks for 4 seconds on the map, and then also does the "tesla coil" effect for duration. It's as sticky or more than Saryns.

[Cibyllae]

9 hours ago, schilds said:

I think Saryn is too easy to use, but I'd rather the devs spend time on other stuff than adjust her again.

she used to be not easy to use, most people still don't understand that she never transferred toxin procs from enemy to enemy, then the devs made her simple.

 

because people complained

[CuChulainnWD]

Just now, ReaverKane said:

You obvious don't know how volt works.
Volt's Ultimate sticks for 4 seconds on the map, and then also does the "tesla coil" effect for duration. It's as sticky or more than Saryns.

Not when it comes to the mechanics of it. Saryn still out kills Volt. Either way they are both viable options for ESO/SO.

[Xepthrichros]

12 hours ago, Klaleara said:

So, we just keep making frames stronger, to stay in line with the other OP frames.  To the point where your very existence deletes the enemy .1 seconds after they spawn into the map.

And to compensate, you increase the difficulty of the game to the point where newbies are essentially playing Dark Souls on x500 difficulty.

Or, if you mean just make the end game difficulty harder and harder, that still leaves the rest of the game up for instant deletion by those specific OP frames.

No....nerfs are not bad.  Nerfs are a mandatory step in gaming.  Are things sometimes nerfed into oblivion?  Yes.  Is it still better than having a bunch of OP frames that literally make anyone not using a OP frame useless?  Yes.

Implying instant deletion is bad? I already explained how this works. Not going to repeat myself. 

And if I am going to have to play hundreds of hours to max out various mods and get various arcanes to complete any build, they better enable me to do some crazy things like mass nuking. I want a game where leveling still means something as opposed to your sadistic alternative where levels are an illusion and the start to end game is all the same uniform "skill" and "interactive" experience - wherein the moment I know how the early game works, I know how the end game works because I will never kill them any faster or slower, and my leveling makes no difference. Just a waste of time, Your idea is the game I will never touch, call of duty, or counter strike against very easy bots. No levels, no progression, no sense of power progress, just bang bang bang. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[ReaverKane]

Just now, CuChulainnWD said:

Not when it comes to the mechanics of it. Saryn still out kills Volt. Either way they are both viable options for ESO/SO.

Like i said, it depends on the players and builds, otherwise, it's pretty balanced.

[el_chanis]

1 minute ago, Pizzarugi said:

Snipping a lot of the rest of your comment to keep the post small, also I agree with most of it too.

The problem Warframe has it that it never had any endgame, nothing substantial anyway that couldn't be overcome with a single frame ability or weapon mod combo that allowed the player to trivialize content. You only need to look at levels to get an idea. The highest we've got is level 100 which is limited to Kuva Flood and Sortie 3, both of which are only accessible every 1 to 24 hours. Meanwhile, the most recent content they pushed into the game were the Emissary Derelict missions which require running infested invasion missions which are always level 60 or below, on point with the star chart. With how long Warframe's been available for people to play, DE has not given players a real, proper endgame. The closest thing we've got to that are time-gated Sorties with its unique level modifiers that could make enemies hard to fight in the right circumstances, and Arbitration with the same reward tables in the first rotation all the way to the 3rd C before you eventually bail out of the mission just to start it again.

We already have frames and mod combos that allow a couple to run endless missions until enemies are thousands of levels high, yet there's no reason to.

From what I've seen with how this game has developed over years, it's safe to deduce that DE wants everything to be on the star chart, level 1-60 missions. It seems unlikely, highly unlikely in fact, that we'll ever see a true and proper endgame. There's no reason for frames like Saryn to exist with the level of power that she possesses, because literally nothing in the game is strong enough to warrant it being necessary. Same goes for other nuke frames like Mesa and Equinox and Volt. Same goes with Nidus's immortality and Revenant's infinite-scaling damage that can let them reach incredibly high endless mission levels.

Yet here we are, with frames so powerful that it encourages people who team up with them to not desire to learn anything about the game or what the shiny 4th button does. Why should they? Why should anyone be bothered to actually play the game when they know they have a high chance of teaming up with someone who doesn't really need them to complete the mission? Easy exp, easy resources, easy mission. And then they get burned out from the lack of challenge this game has and they quit to go find something else that is more engaging than a walking simulator.

This. I made similar points about Rhino's Iron Skin (wich still remains unbalanced imo), and thats the reason Valkyr's Hysteria got nerfed. Having "press a button to ignore a big chunk of the game" skill is bad.

Even if the game doesn't have an endgame, keeping a clear and steady progression from early to "endgame" is important. Looking in retrospective, Warframe is at it's best when you just start and get a solid grasp on mechanics. Once you maxed all mods and start to meta... SHT hits the fan and the entire game design collapses. Saryn is one of the main culprits here. AoE should NEVER outdps single target, yet Saryn does exactly that to the point where not only all your weapons and other damage skills stops to matter at all, but also tankyness in general, given that dead mobs deal no damage. 

The game is drifting way to far from the original "Mass effect-like" combat they intended. Precision, timing and skill should be encouraged and rewarded, instead of disincentivized or trivialized.

[Miyabi-sama]

Gonna stop reading this thread.

Mostly I am very tolerant to pain but now as I've caught a flu every facepalm hurts more and more.

[Cibyllae]

3 hours ago, Djego27 said:

Well that is what you get out of a community that is to lazy to play a actually fairly ballanced frame, that just happend to be the best AOE nuke in the game for 1% of the playerbase, that realized that to do real damage it does requrie specific weapons, rather unique modding on them and knowlage how to set up enemies for your AOE by priming them with spore, let them bunch up and then let a AOE weapon with gas bounce the proc between them, killing the hole map in the process. A rework that puts all that on one button(but worse, given  Saryn was much more elegant and fluid to play at low levels before, where killing stuff actually increased your damage, while not just plain stupid against armor of any level), to a point where player skill is rather a handycap(given you do more "damage" by jsut spreding spores then actuallly killing stuff with your weapons).

Make no mistake, pre rework Saryn did beat Oktaiva for low level dps in capable hands:

Did wield a Plasmor with quite suprising AOE mechanics:

Could with a status secondary to deal with armor solo relative easy up to fairly respectable levels(even defence, where the frame was weaker compared DPS frames with lots of CC like Ember):

It also was allready the ESO queen, however only for a very small amount of players that did know how to do damage with the toxic transfer mechanic:

The current Saryn is just bad design, she discurages actively murdering stuff yourself, all the compexity of how to actually deal huge damage with the frame was removed in favour of just pressing a single button and be semi afk. This is before you consider that there is a map wide armor removal for the hole team with any kind of halve way modded Saryn is just stupid, given it does not require a specifc build or playstyle it is just icing on the broken cake.

This, if you weren't using the correct weapons with Saryn, her spore damage was never going to work for you. They completely removed the complexity of her so that she could be more accessible to the most #*!%ing toxic part of our community, that part being those who whine like children when something is too hard to do, or too hard to understand, and run to DE and say:

"It's clunky"

"Its bugged"

"Its not working properly"

"DE fix it because I am doing it right, but its not working."

This part of our community is killing the game. Every time something they try doesn't turn out how they expect it to, they say its not working properly before even trying to understand why it may not be working. I'm so tired of fun and intricate  mechanics being dumbed down or completely removed because the most toxic part of our community doesn't want to fess up and accept they might have to go read the wiki for a hour or two. DE needs to stop catering to these people who don't want to put in effort to understand something.

[selig_fay]

 

31 минуту назад, el_chanis сказал:

This. I made similar points about Rhino's Iron Skin (wich still remains unbalanced imo), and thats the reason Valkyr's Hysteria got nerfed. Having "press a button to ignore a big chunk of the game" skill is bad.

Even if the game doesn't have an endgame, keeping a clear and steady progression from early to "endgame" is important. Looking in retrospective, Warframe is at it's best when you just start and get a solid grasp on mechanics. Once you maxed all mods and start to meta... SHT hits the fan and the entire game design collapses. Saryn is one of the main culprits here. AoE should NEVER outdps single target, yet Saryn does exactly that to the point where not only all your weapons and other damage skills stops to matter at all, but also tankyness in general, given that dead mobs deal no damage.

The game is drifting way to far from the original "Mass effect-like" combat they intended. Precision, timing and skill should be encouraged and rewarded, instead of disincentivized or trivialized.

 

Means we need regimes, where saryn will useless and then people will even beg its improve xD
I remember there was a time when Vauban was OP. And I don't think anything has changed much about him.

Edited October 4, 2019 by zhellon

[el_chanis]

1 minute ago, zhellon said:

Means we need regimes, where saryn will useless and then people will even beg its improve xD

Too bad. Saryn is badly designed by DE own admission. The overall powercreep is a problem, and having a skill so broken with such absurd scaling isn't helping. Toning down the game (as Steve already said they intend to do), will imply, NECESARILY, a big big nerf in many fronts, like mandatory mods and, off course, Saryn and Equinox nukes.

[selig_fay]

3 минуты назад, el_chanis сказал:

Too bad. Saryn is badly designed by DE own admission. The overall powercreep is a problem, and having a skill so broken with such absurd scaling isn't helping. Toning down the game (as Steve already said they intend to do), will imply, NECESARILY, a big big nerf in many fronts, like mandatory mods and, off course, Saryn and Equinox nukes.

Why nerf? Like mentioned in the Empyrean are the mobs that spawn and become stronger, if they were killed abilities. On the one hand, this is a small problem, on the other, saryn can not just turn off her ability.

Edited October 4, 2019 by zhellon

[Test-995]

10 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

Too bad. Saryn is badly designed by DE own admission. The overall powercreep is a problem, and having a skill so broken with such absurd scaling isn't helping. Toning down the game (as Steve already said they intend to do), will imply, NECESARILY, a big big nerf in many fronts, like mandatory mods and, off course, Saryn and Equinox nukes.

Oh nice, just wait nerfing nukers till everything else got nerfed, then no one would complain about it.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Test-995

[el_chanis]

4 minutes ago, zhellon said:

Why nerf? Like mentioned in the Empyrean are the mobs that spawn and become stronger, if they were killed abilities. On the one hand, this is a small problem, on the other, saryn can not just turn off her ability.

Because Empyeran isn't 99.9% of the game, wich is where she is a problem. The overall gameplay is simply worse with her around, as it used to be with Ember. This a deep background problem related to the absurd scaling DE has worked so hard to NOT change. Until that mechanic (scaling) gets reworked, she needs to get axed asap.

[selig_fay]

1 минуту назад, el_chanis сказал:

Because Empyeran isn't 99.9% of the game, wich is where she is a problem. The overall gameplay is simply worse with her around, as it used to be with Ember. This a deep background problem related to the absurd scaling DE has worked so hard to NOT change. Until that mechanic (scaling) gets reworked, she needs to get axed asap.

If mobs will successful, their can add and in other regimes. The game is in beta and everything that comes out in terms of one content can be distributed to the entire warframe.

[kapn655321]

On 2019-10-02 at 1:06 PM, ReaverKane said:

Why not let them fix the actual unplayable frames

I feel like this is inevitably the best long term path.

It certainly seems like they're working on it, but it takes a lot of time.
Sometimes, certainly can be too much time depending what you're waiting on.

Things like ESO help flesh out those concerns most clearly.
I would like to think that's part of why DE made it.
to compile usage data and see what they can do to improve other features.
They also have many more angles to consider with how frames can compete with Saryn,
and most folks can easily stumble into her meta, as she's so simple to be good with.
I'd love if more frames were so simple to be good with.

Here's to hoping they all will be so universally devastating some day. 😃
...Not surprised if that takes years. Any change may affect functions of other things.
We're all largely playtesting. Things have improved, others are wacky in their own ways.

The ability for frames to dominate like Saryn is important for features like Focus Waybounds..
so I expect to see more features geared to that... and plains, and fortuna..
There's so many new variables, and so much development that has to go into it,
not to mention business and copyright restrictions.

Many of the best mechanics we yearn for, perhaps have developed in our minds faster than they can keep up with,
or their hands are tied on being able to make things just so for myriad untold restrictions, either in their field or engine.

[Djego27]

8 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

stuff

I agree.

When I started in 2014 it took me like 1.5h solo to do a T1 exterminate for forma blueprints and argon(because I had no clue how the recruitment chat and the key system worked). Given that most mods I did need where in the C rotations, I did learn how to do 20 waves of defence solo because like today most people leave at 5, what was great given the more I learned how to play ember the easier it went. In survivals, assuming you had your basics done, you started to struggle at 20 minutes as a new player, after getting more R5 cores, better weapons and mods 40 minutes was considered to be what most people did, given that where when damage weapons started to struggle. I sometimes seen players that could do far better at 40 minutes then others, with non meta guns, even while playing necros. So I asked and I was told I do it wrong at high levels. Fine, I then looked into status, played around with different weapons, did buy shell shock in the trade chat and suddenly this 40 minutes stopped to be a wall that you can not climp as a new player.

This is preaty much player progression, you improve your playstyle, gear and how to approach things and suddenly you become a much better player. Today I believe you do not have that, given that you do not need to get better if you realistically even with minimum effort not can die, you will not struggle with damage, given that most modern frames or damage weapons still murder L150 fairly easy  without damage buffs or that the player has to understand the status system and how to use radiation and corrosive procs to deal with high level armor or aura protection. 

In the end we got just stronger and stronger to do the same L100 content like 5 years ago. You could nuke the first 20 waves of releveant content back then as well, but you had to adjust your playstyle in higher waves. If you compare that to the Saryn today, it removes all the player progression, given you do not have to learn how to use spore best to do damage, the ability basically plays for you once you press the button, you do not have to adjust your playstyle(like people that spammed spore on her molt had to at higher levels, or unfortunally never did) because it does not change between a L1 mission and a L100 sorti and you do not have to experiment with weapons, you just use the same weapons you use in any mission, what is for most people the current meme gun, till it is nerfed.

People basically shoot herself in the foot since years here on the warframe forums, pretending to want a challange, pretending we need so strong weapons and abilities that all challange is removed and then requesting higher levels, like this would change anything(it does not). A challange comes from the relative power of our abilites and weapons against the content. L20 can be challanging if all you have is a unmodded Latron, L80 was a challange, if you do not want to change your gameplay and look into more effective weapons against the scaled up armor and aura protection you did face, L100 can be a challange, grab a gun from 2014/15 and solo it with Ember(well not really, but I guess it still gives a novice Ember player some). All this stuff is allready in the game, it is content that is there, however it is never percived as challange, given the player will always chose the way of the lowest resistance and DE for some strange reason does constantly deliver more tools to make all the content they spent years to build feel like a past expansion in WoW. This is exactly what you get if you constantly buff, less and less of a game that you can actually enjoy.

[000l000]

Saryn doesn't need a nerf nor a buff but two things:

First Damage 2.0 rework so corrosive and viral would stop being overpowered compared to other elements.

Second global line of sight fix for many frames powers the same way they did with melee weapons. Killing enemies you can't even see two tile sets further doesn't make any sense.

I really understand how it can be frustrating for new players to see a lazy player sitting in the middle of the map and only casting her 4th. Perhaps some weird people do have fun doing that but no game should be played this way.

Edited October 4, 2019 by 000l000

[Miyabi-sama]

10 минут назад, 000l000 сказал:

no game should be played this way

... says who?

[el_chanis]

27 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

... says who?

DE. Remember Ember? They do.

[Miyabi-sama]

3 минуты назад, el_chanis сказал:

DE. Remember Ember? They do.

Ember still wrecks low-level trash and never scaled that good. But I remember people were hopping on Incursion Defence. 4 Embers stood in 4 corners with WoF on, AFK ofc.

She was just a brainless AoE machine. And people asked for it. And DE delivered.

I'd be totally fine with any changes with this game if it was DE's and DE's only unspoiled decision.

So again...

46 минут назад, 000l000 сказал:

no game should be played this way

... says who?

[Maka.Bones]

On 2019-10-02 at 9:38 AM, agentkido said:

the frame is so overpowered for almost all content(not including eidolons and profit taker) that its not even fun to run around hydron leveling anymore, you go in there youll most likely 9/10 times. if u go to onslaught its about 99% of the time theres a saryn right there with you. im not saying nerf her into the ground but come on shes clearly overpowered to the point everyone just uses her as a nuke and it ruins the point of the co-op squad. am i wrong? whats other peoples thoughts on this?

You're kidding, right? Saryn is only overpowered for ESO... Literally only for that lol. 

 

She's not super effective for Disruption, it's not super effective for defense unless they're low level enemies (and what isn't overpowered there?) 

She's not super effective in Excavations

She's not super effective in open world 

She's ok in exterminations, and she is effective in survival....

 

Please let them focus on improving things, rather than nerfing things 

[Cephalon_Saryndipity]

I haven't used 4 very much at all on Saryn since Venom Dose changed. Also, I am max rank Zenurik dash... I still need energy from time to time. You can't even spam spores, really.