saryn rework when?

[k05h]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb Xepthrichros:

DE: Here's a warframe to help you level up faster. *presents Saryn*

Weird Players: NOOO Don't want! *Cries* I want to waste time shooting brain dead zero challenge planks of wood (i.e hydron enemies)! 

Lets be honest, Saryn turns most star chart missions with indoor tilesets into Clicker Heroes where you just pick up the loot.

"Shooting brain dead zero challenge planks of wood" is over 95% of Warframe's content and what should be expectedof a horde mode shooter.

For me having a Saryn in mission means "Lets watch some netflix and occasionally get loot". I not sure that this is DE's intention.

Edited October 3, 2019 by k05h

[Miyabi-sama]

5 минут назад, k05h сказал:

For me having a Saryn in mission means "Lets watch some netflix and occasionally get loot". I not sure that this is DE's intention.

For me, judging by the last month of playing, having Saryn in mission means an urgent need to find safe place and type in chat "do something ffs!"

This game needs a disclaimer right in the middle of launcher screen "game experience may change during online play". Bold and in huge font.

[Swagernator22663]

Guys stop, OP is not playing the game anymore, he left and will be back once twitch drops are back.

[Miyabi-sama]

15 минут назад, Swagernator22663 сказал:

Guys stop, OP is not playing the game anymore, he left and will be back once twitch drops are back.

How do you know? 😀

[Klaleara]

I knew this thread was going to be lit up.

Talking about reducing the effectiveness of any frame, even if it should be (IE:  Ruining the game for everyone but the player, and whoever is trying to get carried), will get you flamed all day, every day.

[Miyabi-sama]

2 часа назад, Klaleara сказал:

I knew this thread was going to be lit up.

Talking about reducing the effectiveness of any frame, even if it should be (IE:  Ruining the game for everyone but the player, and whoever is trying to get carried), will get you flamed all day, every day.

There's plenty of things can "ruin" your game. People stated numerous frames with AoE flat damage, rhino, volt, mag. Heck, once upon a time I've played with (or against, lol) Mesa, who shot mobs even before my Tonkor grenades hit them.

Nova can troll you with wormholes, Limbo is "troll by default", Vauban's bounce pads and Loki's teleport. Pink Mirage can splash your screen with purple ignis. Baruuk can lull all mobs to fall sleep and that's not a really immersive gameplay. Once some guys were intentionally shot my Nyx Assimilate bubble to blow it and leave me vulnerable.

Yet I am alive. I have all limbs. Not suffering from intoxication. I just don't mind that.

People can choose what ruins their mood. It is pointless to hold grudge at the Warframe, when there is a guy on the other side of screen plays it. He just uses the thing what it is meant for, not to spite or troll you. He chose to play this way, you chose not to.

I thought that's a common sense I will not be explaining about online games.

[Cibyllae]

3 hours ago, Klaleara said:

Ruining the game for everyone but the player,

Just leave the match if its ruining your game

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

On 2019-10-02 at 1:47 PM, (PS4)Mordecai_Vrykul said:

Limbo is hands down is the worst frame to be matched with, that is unless is a sortie defense. 

Id take a limbo any day over khora. Its easier to hit a target stuck in time then one swinging about 

[(PSN)Mordecai_Vrykul]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CommanderC2121 said:

Id take a limbo any day over khora. Its easier to hit a target stuck in time then one swinging about 

True. but i get matched with a Kora very rarely. I get matched with terrible limbo's all the time.

[agentkido]

1. OP is still here and still very much plays the game

2. you can very easily spam saryn's 4 without a drawback especially if using zenurik dash to get back energy fast

3. if im leaving i want full xp not 75% cause then i have to stay even longer, and lets not forget in onslaught the point is usually to max focus, how are the other 3 teammates suppose to get kills to get their focus up if they cant even get more than 100 meanwhile spamryn has 1-1.5k kills and 200k focus. theres fun then theres fun killers, i find saryn to be kind of a fun killer.

4. to the one saying ive never tried her, ive played her and literally anyone else can shes that easy. not to mention your competing your spores with all the other saryns in the squad which just kills your spores or theirs but one of you get boned by it.

[Hellmaker2004]

53 minutes ago, agentkido said:

2. you can very easily spam saryn's 4 without a drawback especially if using zenurik dash to get back energy fast

Why would you even want to spam it? 
Miasma does not overlap in either the damage or the stun. And you do not cast Miasma for the damage unless you are playing kinda low level stuff and here you can pretty much play any of the other damage AoE frame and perform with almost the same efficiency.

You primarily cast Miasma for the Viral effect and to help spread spore. The base duration of Miasma(6 seconds), Viral duration(6 seconds) and Saryns passive(+25% status duration) make the debuff last up to 13.5 seconds, not sure how it rounds that last second. But i would hardly say that casting it every 13 second is spamming. Also, not sure why you even brought in a drawback, the general rule for most abilitys are energy cost and cast time. Something Miasma have both off.

 

53 minutes ago, agentkido said:

3. if im leaving i want full xp not 75% cause then i have to stay even longer, and lets not forget in onslaught the point is usually to max focus, how are the other 3 teammates suppose to get kills to get their focus up if they cant even get more than 100 meanwhile spamryn has 1-1.5k kills and 200k focus. theres fun then theres fun killers, i find saryn to be kind of a fun killer.

No, you would be leaving with the same focus as the Saryn, i think you misunderstood how affinity is shared. The downside and/or benefit depending how you see it is that the affinity is split on your own gear. So it makes it a lot easier to level up weapons, but it also would require you to have either more Lenses installed or simply not have weapons equipped, but not having lenses installed is hardly Saryns fault.

"Be near an allied Tenno when they kill an enemy. When within 50 meters of an ally when they kill an enemy, you gain the same total Affinity, distributed according to the general rule specified above. This doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by the killing player, and doesn't reduce the Affinity gained by other nearby allies. This applies to Archwing mode with much larger ranges for shared affinity."

Edited October 4, 2019 by Hellmaker2004

[el_chanis]

14 hours ago, ReaverKane said:

Again, that's not really true. She's not over the top. She's specialized.

Specialized in what? being good at everything?. She has good CC, insane dps, and above average in every single stat, including but not limited to tank ones. She is OP.

[schilds]

I think Saryn is too easy to use, but I'd rather the devs spend time on other stuff than adjust her again.

[Test-995]

Don't take away my dearest affinity generator plz

i don't want to level gears for another hundred hours...

[(PSN)Double991]

On 2019-10-02 at 12:38 PM, agentkido said:

the frame is so overpowered for almost all content(not including eidolons and profit taker) that its not even fun to run around hydron leveling anymore, you go in there youll most likely 9/10 times. if u go to onslaught its about 99% of the time theres a saryn right there with you. im not saying nerf her into the ground but come on shes clearly overpowered to the point everyone just uses her as a nuke and it ruins the point of the co-op squad. am i wrong? whats other peoples thoughts on this?

You're in hydron to level and you're in onslaught to hopefully make it to rotation C without an epic fail. Give all of those Saryns thanks instead lest we repeat the tragedy of Ember.

[Djego27]

Well that is what you get out of a community that is to lazy to play a actually fairly ballanced frame, that just happend to be the best AOE nuke in the game for 1% of the playerbase, that realized that to do real damage it does requrie specific weapons, rather unique modding on them and knowlage how to set up enemies for your AOE by priming them with spore, let them bunch up and then let a AOE weapon with gas bounce the proc between them, killing the hole map in the process. A rework that puts all that on one button(but worse, given  Saryn was much more elegant and fluid to play at low levels before, where killing stuff actually increased your damage, while not just plain stupid against armor of any level), to a point where player skill is rather a handycap(given you do more "damage" by jsut spreding spores then actuallly killing stuff with your weapons).

Make no mistake, pre rework Saryn did beat Oktaiva for low level dps in capable hands:

Did wield a Plasmor with quite suprising AOE mechanics:

Could with a status secondary to deal with armor solo relative easy up to fairly respectable levels(even defence, where the frame was weaker compared DPS frames with lots of CC like Ember):

It also was allready the ESO queen, however only for a very small amount of players that did know how to do damage with the toxic transfer mechanic:

The current Saryn is just bad design, she discurages actively murdering stuff yourself, all the compexity of how to actually deal huge damage with the frame was removed in favour of just pressing a single button and be semi afk. This is before you consider that there is a map wide armor removal for the hole team with any kind of halve way modded Saryn is just stupid, given it does not require a specifc build or playstyle it is just icing on the broken cake.

[Ikusias]

Saryn V3.0 was a mistake, Pablo himself admitted to it on his twitter that he should have just "embered" her urgh...

Saryn was fine as she was in her V2.0, what broke her was the change of sphores to corrosive damage, that is the most useful damage in the game due to messed up armor scaling.

before sphores were viral based, and with a decent duration Saryn was an excellent support to the entire squad: she halved the enemies health, the squad finished them while she added more DPS with the toxic transfer, while occasionally nuking part of the map with the combo with miasma... or she casted for a fraction of the effectivenes by woodoo dolling her motl with sphores and popping them with toxic lash active from a "safe" position - she was tactical, had multiple options and didn't wrek the game like she does now - and her energy pool limited how spammy she could get.

Now she's got the highest base stats of all "caster frames" and the highest energy pool of the game on top of that, plus the best damage to ruin the day of armored enemies in high level content and a stupidly overcomplicated sphore spread mechanic that left noone satisfied...

What fragging need was there to rework her?????????

[Djego27]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

You're in hydron to level and you're in onslaught to hopefully make it to rotation C without an epic fail. Give all of those Saryns thanks instead lest we repeat the tragedy of Ember.

Oh yeah all the people that did no damage with Saryn before the rework, instead of actually playing around with it, learning the mechanics and learn to play the frame over time, did deserve a single button that does everything for them hands free and with no thought required at all. Btw Ember is perfectly fine when it comes to deal massive damage, it is just the 99% of the Ember players that can not figure out how to mod her weapons to benefit from a 500%+ fire damage buff.

 

 

[(PSN)Double991]

16 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

Oh yeah all the people that did no damage with Saryn before the rework, instead of actually playing around with it, learning the mechanics and learn to play the frame over time, did deserve a single button that does everything for them hands free and with no thought required at all. Btw Ember is perfectly fine when it comes to deal massive damage, it is just the 99% of the Ember players that can not figure out how to mod her weapons to benefit from a 500%+ fire damage buff.

 

 

Hey, that's all fine and dandy. You make good points and I suspect most players can deal massive damage to a single target. However once you introduce a horde shooting from multiple angles, that damage becomes less important.

Nerfing area damage doesn't make a frame any less squishy. Kudos for round 14 on disruption though :)

[Xepthrichros]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

The current Saryn is just bad design

Subjective point of view. I do not consider clicking with an overpowered gun or slashing with an overpowered blade any more "smart" than pressing 4. Attacking enemies that pose no threat to your immortal tank frame or near permanent invisible frame, or CC-ed them indefinitely, is just as easy. I just had a disruption game without a Saryn in the party. I was Wukong. There was 2 other Wukongs and a Chroma. I still nearly fell asleep while successfully defending the console 12 times. The challenge for that game was to stay awake. And yes, I still kept up with all my team mates in terms of kills and seeking out the demo unit. But still very much sleep inducing.

But I see no reason to nerf any of that. Because the Tenno faction are supposed to be powerful. We are supposed to have the best tech in the system. Tech that is so complex, Alad V, Tyl Regor, etc. are having trouble figuring us out and devising ways to defeat us. We should be able to easily destroy fodder Grineer and Corpus and Infested grunts. I'd say our ability to destroy them is perfectly balanced and fitting.

Nerfs in general are bad.
It accomplishes only misery, and boredom, making people who liked those frames become salty and bitter
It makes easy content (which is boring and sleep inducing) even slower to do
It causes our equipment to make less lore sense.
It prolongs the grind for new players: because no matter how much some of you pretend it is not a thing, it is very much the purpose of nuke frames to facilitate the loot and XP farming in this game - they are XP boosters, built into the 4th skill. Nerfing their 4th is to nerf their kill speed, efficiency, prolong missions and grind.
It also reduces incentive to farm different frames / gear - because if you rebalance everything until they have very marginal benefits or differences from each other - question is then, why bother farming anything else? Just stay with Excal / Volt / Mag. I know some say "Fashion frame". I say this is a bad meme and a game shouldn't just be all cosmetics all the time, there are people want to feel progression and growth and stats increases to their power, not just reskins only, and such people exist in warframe thanks to the RPG leveling up mechanics built into the modding system. If there was no intent to bring this kind of players who enjoy leveling things into the game, then perhaps the mod system was an error to begin with, but the ship has clearly sailed for years.

I suggest that we, instead, ask them to consider making more difficult endgame content for veteran players. We have all these primed mods. rivens, and arcanes to top it all off, but not enough strong enemies to use them on. What enemies? Well, based on lore, probably Sentient-related. It is the direction we seem to be heading in already based on Devstreams and previews of upcoming content. But I hope that all the sentient-related enemies will be challenging enough to justify the existence of Saryn, and rivens, and near immortal HP frames etc.. 

The outcome of it all? In gameplay terms - you want easy gameplay? You can still have it. Take Saryn and other nukers, go to ESO and Hydron, and normal star chart places, to enjoy the massacre. You want challenging and engaging gameplay? Maybe even Souls-like? Go to the new endgame content with sentient or sentient-corpus / sentient-grineer hybrid enemies which pose a challenge and resistance to us. 

More game modes. More ways to play. With easy and difficult content depending on your preference. Caters to more people. As opposed to nerfs, which is basically neutering playstyles you disagree with just to exalt your own, ruining someone else's happiness to push your own goals. 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Xepthrichros

[Klaleara]

23 minutes ago, Xepthrichros said:

 

Nerfs in general are bad.

So, we just keep making frames stronger, to stay in line with the other OP frames.  To the point where your very existence deletes the enemy .1 seconds after they spawn into the map.

And to compensate, you increase the difficulty of the game to the point where newbies are essentially playing Dark Souls on x500 difficulty.

Or, if you mean just make the end game difficulty harder and harder, that still leaves the rest of the game up for instant deletion by those specific OP frames.

No....nerfs are not bad.  Nerfs are a mandatory step in gaming.  Are things sometimes nerfed into oblivion?  Yes.  Is it still better than having a bunch of OP frames that literally make anyone not using a OP frame useless?  Yes.

[ReaverKane]

15 hours ago, el_chanis said:

Specialized in what? being good at everything?. She has good CC, insane dps, and above average in every single stat, including but not limited to tank ones. She is OP.

Good CC? Saryn?

LOL

[Miyabi-sama]

2 минуты назад, ReaverKane сказал:

Good CC? Saryn?

LOL

Dude, folks farm on Mars, nothing to be lol'd at. Real deal.

[ReaverKane]

2 minutes ago, Miyabi-sama said:

Dude, folks farm on Mars, nothing to be lol'd at. Real deal.

Sure, but then, everything is Op on Mars... Even my freaking Smeeta will clear the map (given some time due to lack of aoe).

[Djego27]

Well the weapon was not overpowered, all the screenshots are after the 2 nerfs to the Plasmor. The Plasmor is one of the few weapons in the game that is A: elemental, hence far superior for status builds then IPS weapons, B: got a AOE on hit and C punch through what after a lot of testing with different weapons, after comming to the conclusion that all the stuff from guides on the internet is fairly bad as always, did give me the best results at high levels. It is actually how it did interact with the old spore that made it interesting. Also it was rng, given that it does not have 100% status, could also proc something else and spore was rng as ability, so you as a player had to look for procs and respore to reset your chance to nuke instead of mindlessly bashing your targets.

As for Deflection with Wukong and Chroma, ofc it is broing, like any shooter is if you turn on god mode, trust me getting aimbotted by everything around you as host at L115 with Ember is certainly not boring(even if it is broken and something DE should fix, like they did in U17).

Nerfs are actually fairly good for the game,

People did not like the frames to begin with, they liked that a single button press did play her game.

It makes easy content more interesting, given that it is not played by the press of a button but the player instead.

It makes equipment choice more important if you have to utilitze different weapons vs different things instead just one hit killing everything with one weapon.

It does not affect new players and if it does good for them to learn the basic mechanics, instead of ending up like so many MR20 players this days in sortis that try use the Ignis in extra elemental resist sortis, never really learned to play her frame and ask her on the forums since years for more damage, even if L100 is trivial from the damage perspective with unbuffed weapons from 2014 for any experienced player.

There will never be a challanging engame in warframe if anything can be trivialized by the press of a button by a player that does not even understands what that button does. Do you believe any of the people that run around with spin to win macros could do 80 minutes solo with Saryn and weapons/mods from 2014 in T3? I asked around years ago and the only reply I got was from people that used shadow step and could not comment on frame ballance with melee, because they never really did understand melee. 2014 everybody considered Boltor prime and Soma as god tier meme guns that failed at around L80 vs armor. That was good, because you actually had to improve your playstyle and look into non community favorites that actually did perform much better beyond L80 vs armor like my Boar prime. You could not destroy the map with most frames and they did not had god mode, so you better polish your CC and put some CC on your weapon(what our meta gun community never did). The Detron was a very well ballanced weapon compared the Brakk with halve the damage, but because nobody knows what status does and Brakk does higher numbers vs levels where it does not matter everybody considered the Detron as bad, even if it was the better gun for higher levels.

Today it is just, grab your meme gun(acceltra most likely currently), grab a frame with god mode and enjoy a game where everything dies instantly and you can not die. That is stupid and I do not really want to "play" that, same as I did not want to play "stand next to the necro and vauban for the next 3 hours" in 2014 becasue it is dull and dull gameplay should not be the most rewarding thing in a game. Then again DE...

 

Quote

But I hope that all the sentient-related enemies will be challenging enough to justify the existence of Saryn, and rivens, and near immortal HP. 

It will not.