Nerfs Would Be Fine - Except

[(XBOX)COA Altair]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

One thing I will note is when you look at the usage statistics that DE used to justify the nerf, that over 50% usage was ONLY among MR27s. The lower MRs due to their lack of resources had much lower usage rates on the Catchmoon. So nerfing it based on MR27 usage hurts everyone below that has normal usage rates.

I won't say mr 27 players are all good, however, mr 27 means they have used almost every piece of gear in the game and found the catchmoon to be the best option out of all secondaries.  Being an mr 27 myself, I used a the catchmoon a ton because it was by far the easiest weapon to use in the game and it dealt absurd damage.  Glad it's finally getting nerfed.  

[KnightOwl_]

6 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

This is why anytime a mega meta technique or item shows it’s face and every tells you you need to use/get it. AVOID IT LIKE THE DAMN PLAGUE! Because it will get nerfed.

You can still use it just don’t be surprised when it’s nerfed.  I still use my very strong Gram Riven, and I know that it will get the nerf at soon.  It’s being cognizant of the incoming nerf.  Think of OP gear as temporary bonuses and enjoy them while you can. 

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

You got used to a broken system and cant handle it. It's called entitlement.

How many people actually just happened to find the catchmoon vs. How many were told to get it?

I was told to get it, saw how easy it was to use, so I invested in it. 

 

I have gaming experience so I clearly knew it was broken and took advantage.

 

It's not a big deal, have some confidence in your abilities and move on.

It's just sad how people whine over a single weapon......It's like you're admitted you're nothing without it.

 

[Braneman]

The catchmoon shares a trait with the arca plasmor in that you can just fire it about a meter above the enemies heads in a corridor and get as many headshots as there are enemies in that corridor, on a dedicated crit weapon that can orange crit, with twice to three times the rate of fire, the option for infinite ammo, and two and a half times the base damage of the tombfinger which is supposed to be the one that damages a single target(maybe two if they're close together) and should be the one that has the stats of the Catchmoon in the first place. The problem with the Catchmoon is that it has stats comparable to the Angstrum(even superior) and in terms of some things is on par with the Kulstar both of which can do self damage, but have lower crit stats and only work in a radius around the target, that and I'm pretty sure DE fixed explosives so they can't always headshot like the Tonkor used to, they are not an infinite punch through cylinder that can't do self damage and can literally crit headshot an entire corridor of grineer/corpus.

The problem is that this nerf isn't going to do very much to it, it's going to basically be a shotgun now, except it still has better stats than basically any other secondary shotgun and infinite punch through as well.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Braneman
miscommunication about headshots, sorry.

[Kimimoto]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

This was an expensive investment for me.   

You've learned a valuable lesson that everyone in this community needs to learn. 

If it's OP, it's going to get nerfed. It always has and always will. Invest in things knowing this.

[Numerikuu]

9 hours ago, failedtodiet said:

 So people do actively avoid using strong weapons because they're afraid of nerf in the future. This feels like a punishment to me.

For me personally? I don't like to use weapons or frames that nuke everything with minimal effort. It's not fun, both for me and my team members/friends. Catchmoon was just that, so I shelved it the moment I'd done lvling it.

It'll still be a strong weapon after the nerf. It just won't be a room-clearer--which it never should have been to begin with.

[failedtodiet]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

For me personally? I don't like to use weapons or frames that nuke everything with minimal effort. It's not fun, both for me and my team members/friends. Catchmoon was just that, so I shelved it the moment I'd done lvling it.

It'll still be a strong weapon after the nerf. It just won't be a room-clearer--which it never should have been to begin with.

I'm not defending the gun but Catchmoon was not in the spotlight right from the start. I remember its projectiles were once has some weird geometry collision so most of the Youtubers prefer to use the Tombfinger. DE fixed that and made the weapon too convenience to use so everyone jump on it. Biggest problem to me is they waited this long before decided to nerf it. 

I also get why you don't like to nuke everything in an instant, but the problem is: if i'm messing around too much with low level trashes for at least 40 minutes before they can actually pose some threat, my fingers get tired and i can't go on when the game's difficulty is increasing. And at that point, Catchmoon is not that powerful anymore.

I really wish DE can fix the core problem instead of going around and nerf every mid-high level viable options because too many people use them.

[Marvelous_A]

Honestly, even if they half the damage and crit chance of Catchmoon it'd still be a very good weapon with that AoE and punchthrough. Firing a few more shots won't kill you.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

12 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Aaaannnddd... that's how nerfs work. It was your choice to build it. It's not DE's fault you decided to build the weapon, therefore it's not their responsibility to refund the resources you chose to invest.

It was, however, their decision to Nerf it rather than making the least desirable weapons a bit more well... Not trash.

 

12 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

 They did this for the overall health of the game. Does it suck hard? Yes. But is it fair? Maybe. But consider this:

Does it suck that they wait a year or 2 to fix an OP item or exploit? Yeah. Is it fair? That's subjective. I'd say no because it doesn't seem all that hard to change the falloff or simply lower the damage on the 1st, 2nd, or even 5th Fortuna patch. It's not that they're fixing it, it's that they know how people are and waiting til it hits it's most popular point rather than nipping it at the bud.

12 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

Now, imagine DE did what you're asking and refunded players' resources. This would set up abuse of a refund system, and people can use a weapon and then complain, "We aren't satisfied by it," 

I don't see them nerfing the Soma prime to nothing. Ideally if they didn't drag their feet most players wouldn't be mad.

12 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

 

and ask for a refund. I could go and build a Soma Prime, get bored of it, and ask DE to refund it. This would put DE into a potential PR disaster. They're stuck between, "Do we allow this abuse or do we look like A******s and mess up our image and piss off our playerbase?" 

I don't think people "could" abuse the poor Soma. If they nerfed it so heavily that it can't fullfil it's basic function, then yes, it'd be a PR disaster. Steve admitted before changes are best done incrementally.

He's not asking for his 5k standing back or the resources. He's asking for the stuff he's done after that to make it good. DE has done this numerous times before pre-emptively. It's better to make the base feel like they've won than to punish them for nerfs.

12 hours ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

That would be VERY detrimental to Warframe and DE as a whole.

What's detrimental is nerfs during content draughts, lackluster updates, removal of features while selling the solution, and overall letting things like this be left for so long without fixing.

[SenorClipClop]

22 hours ago, (PS4)Limorkil said:

and if it were nerfed a little it wouldn’t matter, but nerfs always seem to be into the ground

This is the psychology that a lot of players who rage about nerfs bring to the game. "It used to be top-tier, the devs brought it in line with other weapons, now it's been nerf into nothingness and is the worst weapon." It was this way when they added self-damage to the Tonkor -- it remained the best Crit launcher, only you could no longer shoot your feet with it. But everyone spamming it abandoned it because it suddenly had a weakness to offset its strengths. Even players who camped and spammed Tonkor on Defense pods at range abandoned the gun, despite the nerf affecting literally nothing about how they used it. It was simply the psychology behind the weapon being nerfed.

From what they've said about Catchmoon, the nerf is not going to break this weapon, it's just going to change it from being broken. The only significant changes are that its damage falloff and effective range are shortening. Now its great stats and ease of use (ie the person-sized projectile) are offset by a short range, bringing it into line with shotguns. Just stand closer and the Catchmoon will still be what it is today.

[XanSteel]

22 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm getting Akbronco/bronco vibes 😱

It's going to be slightly worse that those weapons. Broncos/AkBroncos all have 9/18 falloff.

To be honest I'd be okay with a slight range nerf of 15/30, but an 8/16 is in my opinion a bit much.

[RX-3DR]

19 minutes ago, XanSteel said:

It's going to be slightly worse that those weapons. Broncos/AkBroncos all have 9/18 falloff.

To be honest I'd be okay with a slight range nerf of 15/30, but an 8/16 is in my opinion a bit much.

To be fair, it still does full damage on contact unlike the Broncos that have a pellet spread. Even if the range of the Broncos are better, you won't necessarily be doing the full damage with them at 8 meters unless you're shooting at center mass on a large target. Meanwhile the Catchmoon can graze a target's finger at 8 meters and still do full damage and will likely still be better than the Broncos ever can at 18 meters as long as you graze the target.

[XanSteel]

Just now, RX-3DR said:

To be fair, it still does full damage on contact unlike the Broncos that have a pellet spread. Even if the range of the Broncos are better, you won't necessarily be doing the full damage with them at 8 meters unless you're shooting at center mass on a large target. Meanwhile the Catchmoon can graze a target's finger at 8 meters and still do full damage and will likely still be better than the Broncos ever can at 18 meters as long as you graze the target.

True, thought I do wish DE would do things in smaller steps, opposed to going from one extreme to the next.

[SneakyErvin]

11 hours ago, Braneman said:

The catchmoon shares a trait with the arca plasmor in that you can just fire it about a meter above the enemies heads in a corridor and get as many headshots as there are enemies in that corridor, on a dedicated crit weapon that can orange crit, with twice to three times the rate of fire, the option for infinite ammo, and two and a half times the base damage of the tombfinger which is supposed to be the one that damages a single target(maybe two if they're close together) and should be the one that has the stats of the Catchmoon in the first place. The problem with the Catchmoon is that it has stats comparable to the Angstrum(even superior) and in terms of some things is on par with the Kulstar both of which can do self damage, but have lower crit stats and only work in a radius around the target, that and I'm pretty sure DE fixed so it can't always headshot like the Tonkor used to, they are not an infinite punch through cylinder that can't do self damage and can literally crit headshot an entire corridor of grineer/corpus.

The problem is that this nerf isn't going to do very much to it, it's going to basically be a shotgun now, except it still has better stats than basically any other secondary shotgun and infinite punch through as well.

Why would headshots matter though when the gun has no headshot multiplier, just like arca p and fulmin?

[Mackanstein]

18 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Wonder how long it will take before Arca P suddenly gets the numbers that Catchmoon currently has now that arbitrations have become a more common mode.

Well, they said they would be looking at Arca P and Fulmin for perhaps similar nerfs. Tbh, I don't see why the Arca would need to be brought down, it seems reasonably balanced, but if its usage numbers go up from this I think they will. 

[SneakyErvin]

12 minutes ago, Mackanstein said:

Well, they said they would be looking at Arca P and Fulmin for perhaps similar nerfs. Tbh, I don't see why the Arca would need to be brought down, it seems reasonably balanced, but if its usage numbers go up from this I think they will. 

Yep both arca p and fulmin will increase in use, especially in arbitrations. There just isnt a reason to stick to catchmoon when it will have the shortest effective range and the other two serve just as well to take out the drones.

The new drone killer meta will likely be Arca P or Fulmin as primary followed by Staticor as secondary. It will probably come down to what your main killing source is when it comes to arbitration disruption demos.

And in the end this isnt really an issue with the weapons at hand, it is more an issue with how they implemented drones in arbitrations. That is probably the thing they should go back and consider changing, since it pretty much pigeonholes the usage of weapons. 

Reason I carry catchmoon at all times is because I'm too lazy to switch to another secondary when I dont do arbis. I barely ever use it or my primary outside of that mode, yet it is there, equipped and upping the stats of usage. I wouldnt be surprised if that isnt the case for many of the players. If It wasnt for arbis I'd still run around drolling as I get my "Dirty Harry on Crack" on with Pyrana Prime.

[HugintheCrow]

On 2019-10-26 at 4:40 PM, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

I’ve said this before and I’m saying it again: If it’s so easy for you to predict weapon balance in a game that you could perfectly balance it before it hits the players, please get into game dev. I’m sure many video game companies would offer a really good salary for that kind of expertise.

Except that's wrong. Those mistakes go through not because devs can't do those calculations, it's because they don't want to put in the time/publishers don't let them to make them. DE famously said they have no testers, so I imagine they wouldn't give anyone a salary for a position they don't hire for.

It's not DE being incompetent, it's them being unprofessional. Ends up looking very similar though.

Edited October 27, 2019 by HugintheCrow

[3rdpig]

I didn't get a Catchmoon until I got a riven for it from some event or another. I built one just for the riven and I liked it so much that I gilded it, put a potato in it, put a lens in it, then forma'd it 6 times. Not to mention rerolled it around 20 times.

So yea, I'm a little annoyed it's being nerfed. But I've got a more rivens, more potatoes, lots of formas and time to do it again with another weapon if needed. Unfortunately for me the next in line to get nerfed will probably be another Kitgun. And yes, I already have all those built, guilded, potatoed and forma'd at least 3 times each.

And yea, I guess I should have seen the Catchmoon nerf coming, it is just way too good and too easy.

I think we should all keep the Catchmoon equipped, you know, just to mess with them.

Edited October 27, 2019 by 3rdpig

[(NSW)FlameDivinity]

18 hours ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

It was, however, their decision to Nerf it rather than making the least desirable weapons a bit more well... Not trash.

 

Does it suck that they wait a year or 2 to fix an OP item or exploit? Yeah. Is it fair? That's subjective. I'd say no because it doesn't seem all that hard to change the falloff or simply lower the damage on the 1st, 2nd, or even 5th Fortuna patch. It's not that they're fixing it, it's that they know how people are and waiting til it hits it's most popular point rather than nipping it at the bud.

I don't see them nerfing the Soma prime to nothing. Ideally if they didn't drag their feet most players wouldn't be mad.

I don't think people "could" abuse the poor Soma. If they nerfed it so heavily that it can't fullfil it's basic function, then yes, it'd be a PR disaster. Steve admitted before changes are best done incrementally.

He's not asking for his 5k standing back or the resources. He's asking for the stuff he's done after that to make it good. DE has done this numerous times before pre-emptively. It's better to make the base feel like they've won than to punish them for nerfs.

What's detrimental is nerfs during content draughts, lackluster updates, removal of features while selling the solution, and overall letting things like this be left for so long without fixing.

You're missing the point. The Catchmoon was used just as much as every other secondary weapon in the game combined. In my opinions, these nerfs sound a bit harsh, but we'll see gameplay-wise once it releases. And if they are too harsh, then we as a community give DE our feedback as we've been doing since the birth of this game. Yes, the nerfs suck; yes they should've tackled this issue earlier and before people got so attatched to this weapon. But this is the correct decision they made. I'm sorry the resources you've put into this are wasted, I really am. But I look at this decision as how it effects the overall health of the game and the enjoyment for all players over the future of the game. And that's how DE looked at it too when they decided these nerfs. 

[ShogunGunshow]

I have very little sympathy for people complaining when the bandwagon item that everyone told them to get because it was so ridiculously good turns out getting nerfed later.

Like, what did you think was going to happen.

[bananacat89]

Crunching down weps and getting back stuff used would be a nice trade off. Even if it is just a fraction of the items it would still be nice. 

That said. The stats won't change for high ranked players using catchmoon  with the upcoming nerfs. Everyone is still gonna use it for arbi drones. It will still be a fabulous weapon to have.  Even with the nerf it is still the best secondary for arbi drones. We will just go closer to the drone and shoot it.  Either they nerf it more and more until its fodder or they come out with some cool new weps with similar capabilities. 

Edited October 28, 2019 by bananacat89

[DrivaMain]

Me reading this

 

In all seriousness, I believe the catchmoon will still be viable after the nerf (DE only nerfs the range not overall damage). Besides, the "Pexilus" slot will fix that problem.

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

1 hour ago, (NSW)FlameDivinity said:

You're missing the point.

a think DE did. Several times, and 11 months too late.

Quote

TheCatchmoon was used just as much as every other secondary weapon in the game combined.

Only among the relatively MR27s.

Quote

Yes, the nerfs suck; yes they should've tackled this issue earlier and before people got so attatched to this weapon.

I think you missed my point. Sure it's OP. Could have told you that 9 months ago. The point I was trying to make is that other secondaries need buffed. Rather than nerfing it to the ground it'd have been better to simply cut the damage by a bit and buff the least used until they're more viable. Is it ever a bad thing to have more options? 

Quote

But this is the correct decision they made.

I'd have to disagree. A harsh nerf flies in face of DE's solutions, which are to incrementally change things rather than breaking it completely. They usually only do this level of nerfing for exploits, and this isn't an exploit.

Quote

I'm sorry the resources you've put into this are wasted, I really am.

DE used to compensate if it affected the majority of the community. Look back at steel charge and the like.

Quote

But I look at this decision as how it effects the overall health of the game and the enjoyment for all players over the future of the game. 

I have 15 blue potatoes and 10 eidolon lens blueprints I have no need for. I also have more than enough forma to waste. That's not the point. I'm not a new player, but stuff like this is a turn-off to many. I'm not arguing for my interests here.

Quote

And that's how DE looked at it too when they decided these nerfs. 

I disagree. Rather than understand why people don't use other things they decided to kill the most liked secondary. The proper solution would be to buff other weapons so they're ok and nerf this. The quick solution is to Nerf the most used while obfuscating the fundamental problems with the least used 50 secondaries.

 

Would have much rather preferred to see the  usage and damage dealt compared to primaries and melee.

Edited October 28, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[AzureTerra]

On 2019-10-27 at 12:57 AM, (PS4)Limorkil said:

 But what kills me is the forma, lens, catalyst.   Can we at least have the ability to scrap an item and get all the stuff back?   That’s expensive stuff to me.   

And you have likely been using it for a longtime so no, you wear that its a cost you have expended to make this weapon do what you want for the time you have had it. More so if you were silly enough to be a sheep who went a got the weapon because "everyone" is saying get the weapon.

[nslay]

10 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

I think you missed my point. Sure it's OP. Could have told you that 9 months ago. The point I was trying to make is that other secondaries need buffed. Rather than nerfing it to the ground it'd have been better to simply cut the damage by a bit and buff the least used until they're more viable. Is it ever a bad thing to have more options? 

That's how power creep happens. The game developers decide not to anger the community and buff everything else instead of doing the right thing: nerfing that one overpowered weapon/frame/character class/set item/etc... Just look at the mess that is Diablo 3. That's been their philosophy from almost day 1 and that's why 10000% damage bonuses are now normal in that game. Blizzard didn't want to do the right thing, they wanted to keep the community happy. So every balancing patch is a buff for everything! No hurt feelings for anyone! Yay! Power creep!

To an extent, I agree some of the secondaries need buffs. But I also think buffing everything to be on balance with the current catchmoon is absolutely nuts! And I point to the dumpster fire of inflated damage numbers/bonsues that is Diablo 3.