(PC) Melee Phase 2: TECHNIQUES Feedback

[shootaman777]

I'm not going to spend hours going through combos again, after already having done so, to be able to name every specific offending stance that makes this gaffe, but forward combos, as a rule of thumb, SHOULD NOT break momentum.  So many stances' forward combos do this now that many weapon types are what I would consider 'unusable' due to stances alone (Nikanas, I'm looking at you).  Additionally, and also in my opinion, the forward+block combos should ALL be gap closers, but should NEVER have the second hit be a momentum breaker. 

Quick melee should be reintroduced to the game if DE refuses to make these changes.  Almost all quick melee did not break momentum, back when melee had to be manually equipped in melee-alone style to use any stance combos at all, and that (melee 2.0 basic utility mechanics, not even discussing range/damage) was directly superior to most of the current iteration of melee.  I missed using the Butter Knife (my affectionate nickname for the Nikana Prime), and have missed it ever since melee 2.5 when quick melee was removed, and every 2nd hit locked the player in place (and still does), making nikanas feel horrible to use.  Ever since melee 2.5, I would rather equip no melee at all than use a nikana, if those were my only two options. I used to use Decisive Jugment because it was the only Nikana stance that did not lock the player in place with quick melee, but now even the forward combo of every nikana stance locks the player in place... which feels bad, very bad. 

Also, please allow the player to CHOOSE which combos to put on which keybinds.  Clashing Forest is an example of a stellar stance that I became accustomed to when the Tipedo and Bae (Bo) Prime were all the rage, and now that the forward+block and forward combos have been SWITCHED, it is painful to use.  Hundreds of hours of muscle memory tells me to do one set of inputs for one set of results, but the current iteration makes another set of results happen.  I have tried to relearn it, but old habits die hard and I end up doing the former block combo to close gaps but swing at empty air in front of me, or do the former forward combo to nuke an enemy in my face but end up spinning right past them. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by shootaman777
caps, then because of more testing, another edit

[PepsilonEagle]

Rending Crane: Skull Splitter's first strike doesn't sound as impactful as the second even though they both slam the ground, especially noticeable on dokrahm heavy blades. Lashing Tempest final strike also feels kind of empty to me without the energy shockwave it used to have.

[Andele3025]

How each attack chain of Tempo Royale should look, only badly stitched together from the old gifs (naturally animations should flow into eachother without snap interruptions):
Majestic Abandon aka Static attack chain (very small steps, can strafe during it)
Resplendent Calma aka Forward attack chain (should be 100% free movement)
August Mesto aka Block Forward attack chain (camera steeer control and soft strafe between each spin at the speed it was)
with Bold Reprise aka Static Block attack staying the same because it didnt change in the first place.

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

On 2019-10-31 at 8:09 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Lifting

Can you do something about lifted status?

Make them heavier and slower so we can actually land a damn hit? And not watch them fly away like flies?

It's something that can be and look very coolwhen doing it...but it's just very badly designed and RUSHED 

[(PSN)NemitheNem]

I may have had a brilliant idea. 

Lots of complaints about totally using up the combo counter for one unimpressive attack. So what about heavy combos that progressively use more of your counter but get stronger?

I am going to start at zero but we can start at one instead

The first heavy attack is free, but either it is basically a normal attack or deals piddling damage but has some mother effect--short lifted status, makes you briefly stumble immune, whatever. 

The next attack, double damage, uses up one combo

Ditto the next. 

Fourth attack takes two from the counter deals 3x damage. 

Fifth takes 3 does 4x

Sixth takes 5 and does 6x damage.

Which totals up to the full 12 com I multiplier and is essentially a 1 to 1 ratio on how much damage you're giving up to how much damage the attack does. 

[AdunSaveMe]

Getting pretty tired of stationary combos that have forward movement. I'm using Stinging Thorn now, and it moves me forward constantly, and it always makes me slide past enemies, when the only input I'm doing is the attack key. Combos should only move you forward if you yourself are inputting forward movement, period.

Alternatively, make melee lock on actually lock on, so we stop sliding through enemies before they die.

Edited November 23, 2019 by AdunSaveMe

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Here's some suggestions for how we can improve lifted status 

 

[Hartmann_C4-621]

I'm pretty happy with the changes, but I have two things to say.

First, what's about this reintroduced technique of "hold melee atack to perform a heavy strike"? We have a dedicated button for heavy strikes now, and when I'm using faster weapons, I often misclick and use all my combo counter for holding the melee attack key for too long. I haven't seen many complaints about this, but maybe we can get a setting for these in Controls? I can't use my dagger efficiently because of that.

Also, there were many suggestions on how the heavy attacks should consume the meter. Well, how about we introduce a "hold" meter? Basically, it's like "hold" on certain frames' abilities. The more you hold the heavy attack button, the stronger it gets and the more combo counter it consumes. There aren't really that many situations when you want to use all the combo meter power in just one slam. In crit builds especially, you don't want to lose your combo meter. I think this would synergize well with the "bonus crit chance for heavy attack" stat.

Also, requesting a buff for Glaive Prime. The prime weapons are performing really nice now, but the glaive is missing some tiny stat bonuses.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

At the risk of redundancy:

This is seemingly about more than just a stat adjustment.  Unique mechanics seem to have been erased or totally compromised by the update. Glance Prime, Falcor, Orvius...all of them.

 

[(PSN)Bryanneo237]

Just some qualms about some of the combos of various stances I'd like to see adjusted.

 

Swooping Falcon: The thrust on the forward guard combo stops a little too short, it should reach further.

 

Shimmering Blight and Bleeding Willow: These two are practically the same, both lacking a Neutral Guard combo and the only difference being the Forward Guard combo. Why? Polearms can more varied moves than these very staff like motions as well.

 

Tranquil Cleave: The Neutral Combo has a rapid stab motion that just feels... off and the combo overall feels weak. I don't think katanas should employ thrust attacks in general much less a barrage of them.

 

Gnashing Payara: It definitely feels powerful but Neutral Combo is quite unreliable when the enemy is pushed back from the rising slashes. Make the enemy stick more closely.

 

Tempo Royale: Slam attack from the Netural Guard combo should have abit more AoE range to match the look and feel of the impact, in my opinion.

 

Wise Razor: Again the lunging thrust on the Forward Guard combo goes nowhere, defintely add more range to this attack.

[ArkThanatos]

things i have noticed (made a thread on it as well) is glaives are seriously lacking. the tracking turned to crap. the charge throw\heavy attack is really. well where all other weapons heavies are great, the glaives are seemingly weaker than before (condition overload nerf).
the off handing throw needs to be affected by the Charge attack mods. also needs a buff on the damage side.. an fix the target tracking to be more Phahd and less Wolf Sledge. as the tracking no where near as good as it use to be. 

i love my glaives. i love running thru missions with a falcor or glaive prime and a lato vandal\Vaykor merlok\zylok  and mowing down units throwing glaive into a group and turning to face another with the pistol. where before this was pretty reliable tactic, now its not even close to viable as the glaives seem to be affraid of any terrain. i have a falcor that wont fly thru doors! .a glaive prime that shys away from mobs to hit walls instead. even when they are right infront, its like having heavy cal PRIME! on it. -255% accuracy.... who needs a lich when your glaive explodes 0.1 seconds after being thrown because it saw a wall. 

very very few things in the rework need more attention. but the glaives went backwards in this. they went from good useful fun to agonising unreliable suicidal weapons of choice 


also while im here... Why does Garudas talons NOT count as a Melee weapon for Melee only missions!. i LOVE her talons. they are so good. but yet i cant melee only sortie mission with them!.... also where is my Neutral Riven for her talons! 

[Mos-Eisley]

Would you please, please change the animation/visuals of the lifted satus so its not so derpy? Something more akin to the animation of Rhino's stomp would be much more fitting. 

[Balsco]

I have a few requests/suggestions regarding some stances:

Decisive Judgment: The forward combo is the offender here, first it doesn't make sense since it performs two sweeping one-handed slashes, and Decisive Judgment is the double-handed grip stance for Nikanas. Secondly, the second hit of the combo abruptly grinds the Warframe to a halt, this was one of my favourite stances before the changes, and it still is, but I'd love to see the forward combo allow for unimpeded movement like before, and have the animations reflect the two-handed nature of the stance.

Vulpine Mask: The forward combo's fourth hit performs a spinning move that slows the Warframe, this isn't a major slowdown but it is still a step down from how fluid rapiers used to feel while sprinting before the changes.

Sovereign Outcast: The tactical forward combo's first attack is not a gap-closer, this is at odds with the consistency of the current melee system.

Clashing Forest: The last hit of the Forward Combo performs a spinning attack that slows down the warframe awkwardly, before the changes, this particular move would actually propel the warframe forward.

Cyclone Kraken: The second hit of the Forward Combo is also the offender here, slowing down the warframe even though the first one does not.

Thank you for your time. 🙂

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

Probably has already been mentioned, but can we have the original weapon swap back? Like primary -> hold swap -> full melee -> hold swap ->  primary. Now it's pripary->melee->secondary 😕

[Telfaroth]

See below

 

Edited November 25, 2019 by Telfaroth

[Telfaroth]

Le 01/11/2019 à 00:06, Sitchrea a dit :

Mercy kills with the Parazon should be bound to E, not X. Executing an enemy with a Mercy kill feels extremely awkward because I have to stop DPS'ing right at the point of an enemy's death if I want to pull it off.

After test; it is complex to do a stealth and mercy attack with other button than the attack melee. I have the melee to my mouse button because I need the mouse and the arrow keys when I want to do stealth attack. I have no more button for a new sort of attack.

I understand that you would like that button 'X' is related to the parazon but; It is better that 'X' stay related to non-combat action instead for sure.

At least; let's  let's us choose the key binding for this action so that it can be 'X'or 'E' .

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Telfaroth:

After test; it is complex to do a stealth and mercy attack with other button than the attack melee. I have the melee to my mouse button because I need the mouse and the arrow keys when I want to do stealth attack. I have no more button for a new sort of attack.

I understand that you would like that button 'X' is related to the parazon but; It is better that 'X' stay related to non-combat action instead for sure.

At least; let's  let's us choose the key binding for this action so that it can be 'X'or 'E' .

I actually like that we now have the option to perform a finisher/mercy or not. I did not like the old, forced finisher on unaware targets.

[Sword0fLotus]

Since introducing heavy attack on "hold melee" input they keep triggering on their own, zero-ing Combo Counter and making Blood Rush obsolete.

I've enjoyed using them in melee 2.0 and never did them on accident, even with both Amalgam Organ Shatter and Swift Momentum equipped. Now with none of them equipped this keeps happening every mission even when paying attention to my clicking pattern.

Adding option in controls to remove "hold melee" input for heavies would be something.

Making "hold melee" heavy attacks without Combo Counter cost while matching the strength of ones at zero Combo Counter and keeping "secondary fire" heavy attacks draining and with damage multiplier would be amazing.

To differentiate both types, "hold melee" heavies could have VFX of energy channeling on warframe removed.

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, Sword0fLotus said:

Making "hold melee" heavy attacks without Combo Counter cost while matching the strength of ones at zero Combo Counter and keeping "secondary fire" heavy attacks draining and with damage multiplier would be amazing.

To differentiate both types, "hold melee" heavies could have VFX of energy channeling on warframe removed.

Neat idea!

[Chaotic_Sky]

I think the Neutral and Forward combos of Astral Twilight(glaive) and Homing Point(dagger) need to be swapped. In both cases the neutral combo has a far more natural forward moment/momentum (and in ATs case, was the prepatch forward combo) than the actual forward combo, which is little more than flailing while running, and would probably work better as the 'stand and hit' that the neutral combo is intended for.

Astral Twilight especially needs this badly.

[iquaniqua]

While I love the fact that we can now actually swap to our melee weapon and stay there, before the feature was originally removed, we also had a separate keybinding for swapping to melee, this allowed me to have on button for switching between weapons and another one for going to melee and back without having to hold anything, I would love to see that option come back.

[Nichivo]

I still need a way to disable hold for Heavy Attack. It would also be nice if the Heavy Attack keybind would perform a Heavy Attack even if you have tapped mouse 2 without having to hit e again first(assuming you aren't in melee only, since it's not an issue there.)😞

[Tsamu]

Even though the hold charge is back, it doesn't seem possible to perform heavy attacks with it in the middle of combos anymore, the string must end or time-out before a charge attack can begin. Even the chained charged attacks that can be executed using the alt-fire button do not work when holding the melee button.

And I know it's old news at this point, but is there really no way to remove the mandatory quick hit preceding a hold-heavy? Ivara's 1, for example, seems able to distinguish between tab and hold well enough...

Edited November 26, 2019 by Tsamu

[Saturndoot]

Hold to heavy attack is broken as hell and goes off randomly

 

Wise razor is incredibly clunky now 

 

Crimson dervish seems to have a duplicate combo and the hold forward+block attack moves you forward maybe 2 feet

 

Hysteria combos all feel similar and the heavy attack stomp no longer seems to open enemies to finishers

[Maxim_M_Payne]

This is far from my only complaint, and I'm going to continue posting as the vicious cycle of DE only listening to the initial, blindly-praising Atterax-spammer player feedback continues (likely for ANOTHER eight months) as they add in annoyances and remove what was actually fun about melee combat for a second time; but I digress. For now, I'll focus on being angry about how they massacred Stances.

You know how I said earlier in the thread that I miss the old Stance system? How holding and pausing certain presses, and rapidly hitting the E key during a flurry of blows felt natural and rhythmic; and it didn't cause a disconnect between the tactile feeling of my button inputs and what my Warframe actually did with the melee weapon in my view on-screen? 

I meant every part of that. Not only does the new abomination we have jammed in the old Stance system's place not match up with our button inputs (a single button press causing at least eight rapid slashes, for example); not only is it clunky and unnatural; not only does it MAKE USING THE MOVEMENT KEYS OBLIGATORY, WHEN WHAT PLAYERS ACTUALLY WANTED was for our melee attacks to have momentum that was finally de-bugged; but as the icing on this soul-less, cut-and-paste cake, the unique rhythyms of each old Combo are now gone. Every single Stance now has the same two or three permutations of mashed E, E + foreward movement, E + block, and/or E + block and foreward movement; with that set formula pasted across the whole board.

Homogeny. Rubbish. Unsatisfying and low-effort. I am trying so blasted hard to be patient, but we are very nearly at a full year now that I haven't been able to use, let alone enjoy, what was very FORMERLY my favorite method of in-game combat.

But by all means, let me marvel at the "diversity" that you replaced the old genuine variety to our Combos with! (major /s, there). Not only has every Stance been turned into the same swirly flourishes when previously they had distinct aesthetics, but on top of that they all feel the same. And as it turns out, there was a very good reason for them all feeling the same, because at the core they are. There aren't words to describe how... ...furiously disappointed this "overhaul" and "SmOoThNeEsS" makes me; especially since it is demonstrably neither of those things. 

Spoiler

 

 

The same. Exact formula. Over and over again. All of them making the movement input A MANDATORY PART OF THE STANCE, WHEN WHAT WE QUITE SPECIFICALLY ASKED FOR WAS FOR MELEE ATTACKS TO NOT LOCK US IN PLACE, AND FOR THEM TO PROPERLY SYNCHRONIZE WITH OUR MOVEMENT, INSTEAD OF BEING DEPENDENT UPON IT.

The bar is subterranean in how far I keep mentally lowering it; and each and every blasted time I do so, Melee 3.0 and its highly-alleged "ReFiNeMeNtS" gleefully dig under the metaphorical bar and fling dirt in my face. I'm not going to accept this. I will never enjoy it, and I am certainly not taking time to "relearn" what has been lobotomized into a cloned mass of awkward inputs, locked motion, and lamer-looking animations.