Everything about the Kuva Lich system is awful

[(PSN)Mono-Pop]

On 2019-11-03 at 10:56 AM, DrakeWurrum said:

I am of exactly the opposite mind on this. I'm loving this system, and no... it doesn't feel half-baked to me at all.

I'm glad to finally have content I can work at, instead of just popping into a 20-minute mission and, oh look they handed everything I've ever wanted to me on a silver platter (RNG permitting).

It's not perfect. There's some room for improvement (like... it's stealing my Kuva relics. And my traces). But I don't feel the salt the way you are.

Take a look at the playerbase dude. You really one of the only people who likes it. Everyone else left.

[SerphV]

actually speaking of the order of the parazon mods...

they made it seems like those words has of no value...

If we could, base on some actions or words that the lich says... then from there determine the parazons and its order... wouldnt that be so much more fun?

[Myscho]

Still hoping DE do something about that 5 formas = rank 40 nonsense

[Violet_Xe]

On 2019-11-03 at 1:20 AM, AR3E said:

Also I dont get why Khora here giving toxin, my friend got corrosive on Seer.

    That is because the Seer has innate corrosive damage, or at least the kuva variant does. The toxin damage gained was added into your corrosive most likely from what I've gathered. Pretty sure LeyzarGaming can provide you a better explanation on the weapon%

[Violet_Xe]

      This will be coming from someone who has killed 10 Lich and converted 3 since release. I've played against them at both high and low level areas and know how to both help and kill the lich with both tank and nontank warframes. I recognize the bugs, issues, and toxic behavior coming from them. I want to say i've got experience in the matter but I know others have more, I'm simply saying my piece. I'm not going to say the system is perfect but people are overreacting to this system in some aspects. I see both sides of the argument but I'm saying this system is good enough for me. Not great, it's only just breaks satisfying. This will be a post to show players what the system is actually like, from as much of an unbiased and fair perspective as I can possibly provide. based on my own experience, the information given by content creators, and other posts.

GRIND

Spoiler

   If anyone says that THIS grind is too much, then they're just wrong. I mean that in the most respectful way I can because I get it. My first experience with my first lich was terrible and I won't ever forget her no matter how hard I try. First impressions mean the world especially after a content drought. Players were angry and were critical about everything now but I implore you to give it another change, if not no then once Emperyon releases and further changes are released. Now onto the reasoning.
   One comparison is that this is worse then cetus and this is false. The lich will at bare minimum will take you 1-8 missions to complete if you're extraordinarily lucky. On the flip side of the coin, some lich took over 40ish missions. If one lich takes on average 25-30 missions this cannot be worse then cetus because you get a good weapon at the end of 30 missions and you can do it all without being restrained by a rep cap. Your grind and effort is done within your time and at your own pace to make it feel less like a chore and more like a choice. When has warframe released a luxury like that in recent years? Let me remind you guys that these aren't meant to be short term relationships, the lich is meant to take normal players several days to kill. This was an intended function of the system and they succeeded so I don't see what's wrong here.
   Next the mods will become defiled over time. Yes your mods will break and shatter, that's the point. Unlike with the amps, you wouldn't have a reason to go back to farm the T5 fissures if they had infinite charges. You could say "weapon adapters are there" but you can also get that BP from the syndicates for 75k standing. Certainly they could have made them easier to get but I haven't had an issue with them and from the sounds of it, neither do any of the content creators. RNG is frustrating and prevalent but I haven't had any issues since several corrections have been made including R Relics cannot be stolen by the lich, R Relics can drop from Thralls, and Kuva Floods being fixed. The mods also have 3 charges, so at bare minimum 1 full set of mods can guarantee you 3 lich kills, from which you could get 10-20 relics. Also don't forget that you can dissolve the defiled mods for 500 endo, they're miniature ayatan treasures. The main issue people had on release was that they were too hard to get and RNg was too high if DE was going to monetize the relics and mods fir plat.
   Warframe may be a more casual grind game but grind is still at it's heart. You should expect hours of grind if you want something. You guys think this is an arduous grind? You think this is tough? I farmed nova prime systems for 6 months before relics were added because I wanted nova prime. 6 for months straight. Unlucky, bad design, might even say I'm insane and I probably am. But I was introduced to what grind actually was because of Nova. Other grinding games like Diablo 2 and Path of Exile have harsh grinding curves with exceptionally rare and valuable items that sometimes take players a year or longer to acquire. "Tyrael's Might" being a legendary example. Tell me if there was a primed chamber that had a 0.01% drop chance from 3/3 cracked spy vaults on the kuva fortress, wouldn't you want to try your luck when you've got nothing else to do? I'm not saying make these mods 0.001% chances no that's stupid but what I'm saying is this is a moderate and fair grind.

WEAPONS

Spoiler

   If we're talking about the weapons, they do echo rivens, but you cannot compare the two. Unlike rivens there's a much better chance you'll obtain the weapon you want due to the limited weapons available and they aren't tradeable. The bonus won't matter too much if it's above 40%. You're talking about a 1-20% loss in damage for minmaxing. You could get unlucky and I feel that, there are moments in which I get weapons with 26% but at that point I've no issue converting them for future content involving Emperyon. Unlike rivens, you're guaranteed to gain something from the lich. If you're after the best of the best guns with 65% then you should know what you're walking into. All other grinding games have this too.
   In regards to the cracker requirement, I haven't dived too deep into that due to weapon slot limitations as i'm tight on platinum, but from the kuva brakk i've claimed and other opinions I can confirm that it's fine as is. I find the 5 forma ridiculous, but I don't find myself tripping in aggravation it either. The only reason I'd ever snap 5 crackers on these is for mastery and that's not something players care for. I'm fine with just 3 or 4 forma. If the weapon had a passive at 5 forma players would feel forced to forma it 5 times right? That's what happened with the paracesis. But the passive/upgrade already took place at rank 0 so you're not forced to cracker it 5 times like the paracesis to get the results you want. It's choice, and that seems to be a highlight of the old blood update... we don't talk about grendel's missions .
   Though the weapons aren't perfect, far from it. There are some heavy bugs like the the ogris and tonkor boasting worse stats then the original weapon. One of my friends got 3 ogris in a row and that really demoralized him. Speaking about that... duplicates. There is a way DE could help players want to get duplicates but they seem to just ignore the suggestion. I've been saying use the Fatal Bullet weapon enhancement system for the weapons but it seems to just be ignored. Thing is if you get a duplicate, then allow players to fuse it, or valance it, into the weapon to enhance the damage bonus putting more value in duplicates, even getting players to say "ah yes I got a "kuva weapon" so I can upgrade my own "kuva weapon".

FIGHTING THE LICH

Spoiler

   Oh boy... I've got issues with this but I'll start with what's expected. The instant death is BS, anyone with a brain can see that. This is by far the most infuriating part of the entire system both when I watch it happen to other players and when it happens to me. Take it from me personally, I was shown off in mogamu's video being executed TWICE because I didn't have the ability to even fight that lich. Of all players I'm one of the most bitter about this. This and it needs to be fixed. An idea I came up with is Kuva Madness Skill Checks, if anyone wants to check that out it's on one of my concept posts along with what the lich could have been. I won't post here because it's already long enough but a way to evade death would be appreciated because it'll mean "you failed so prove your skill or die". This I would understand but a "Press X to Die"  gnaws at me every time I see lich kill me, my friends, and pubs. Nobody enjoys Requiem Roulette. 
   Are they difficult? Are they easy? It's honestly hit or miss depending on where you are in the game and what frame you used. I originally thought they weren't tough but I now see that's because I'm just that capable of killing lich. I've seen entire parties struggle against a LvL 5 lich. Because of this I think we can finally say Warframe has some sort of mid game development. Sure it's amazing we have this but this isn't an endgame enemy or a threat. Were capable of melting lich within seconds if were prepared. It's disappointing LvL 5 was the limit because I was hoping to fight a LvL 65 lich with my friends over christmas for fun, but it became evidently clear that this would remain a dream. I'm sure a higher level cap would be appreciated among the community for harder fights. With that thought we also need a way to opt in and optout of difficult lvl 10-25 lich enemies.
   I'll give it this though, I personally have never felt better running pubs with my favorite frames. Both as Nezha and Banshee I feel critical to my allies because of my supportive capabilities. Public players usually will come up with toxin lich and we all know how that radial team killing mosh pit ends up. But as Nezha I neutralize hallowed ground and smite with firewalker and warding halo. Seriously I've never felt more satisfied about running nezha over rhino. Even titanya would be a close second and that's saying something for warframe diversity. As Banshee I'm capable of enhancing my allies damage to let them melt lich in seconds. I was recently thanked for using banshee because one player couldn't deal with their lich alone. Have I ever felt that happy playing banshee? NOPE playing banshee in pub never felt better and that's a gold star for the lich system for me. Counter play for lich is crucial and fighting an unfair enemy is what we needed to inspire team play. Ever wanted to know what it's like to fight an oberon, nyx, or irradiating disarm loki? Now you do. This is payback and it's not meant to feel fair but that just makes the rush from finally killing the lich makes it that much better because it's not just some lancer.
   Even fighting some other lich I've had a fantastic time. For the first time in ages I felt embarrassed because an AI managed to trick me. YEAH. One one the lich was born from radiation and was granted trickster abilities. My friend's lich decided to create a decoy, ok that's a decoy. Then it switch teleported me, then instantly switched with the decoy again and stood still imitating the decoy. I thought I was attacking the lich for a good 6s before I got grabbed from the rear and thrown off a cliff. Sure it may not happen all too often but if one player can be tricked so can others. 

   Lastly, interacting with the lich is always fun. The quirks and fun male personality makes me hesitant to actually kill my lich sometimes. I actually sacrificed a 59% electric kuva karak because I got too attached to BOPP.

LICH MISSIONS

Spoiler

   These have been really enjoyable for me. Not because of the mission itself no, but because I've been going back to older tiles. When running with my friends I can ignore the grind and joke about every day stuff while fighting LvL 100 enemies daily which is something that hasn't been given to us in ages. The last time I remember chatting it up with my clan and friends during a mission was when key runs were a thing and that really brings me back. Maybe I've got a soft spot for stuff like this but the Thrall Missions just feel like nice time passers. But for those of you that feel like you're not doing much don't worry. The newest interviews from brozime and tactical potato brought new info to light allowing us to do more in a single mission. This will make killing thralls hopefully a side objective.
   Angering the lich is what's annoying. I've found from my own experience Survivals, Defense, Hijack, and Excavation anger the lich at a higher rate compared to capture, spy, and exterminate. But sometimes they just don't want to spawn or never get irritated. I can take an entire planet from them and they refuse to spawn even at enraged status. Other times my lich attacks me 3 times in a row while it's indifferent. I don't know if it's a bug but it should be checked out at the very least. It's not too unfair but I can feel the pain of running missions while praying for a spawn. I'd like a more reliable way to get them to spawn but I feel that would defeat the purpose of the system.
   There is another bug, or maybe a display issue. Sometimes it will say the mission is one thing, but it turns into another. I've had issues running more valuable missions because it never tells me what it really is. One thing players do seem to miss out on though is the amazing revival of old mission types. Being able to run sabotage, capture, exterminate, etc etc again and again on old tiles is a dream come true for DE and has been successful in it's goal. Stop sometime to appreciate the tiles you play in every once in awhile, you might find yourself developing new tactics based off terrain.

   Something big, apparently, has been the stealing of items. Believe me I have too much experience with this and I can feel for all of you but I find it silly that this was a complaint. At the start I was like "oh 7 credits how cute" and often I still think that way. But I do get ticked off that they steal valubale items occasionally. One example being my first lich "Requiem" as I call her. I call her this because she was my first lich and stole 13 R Relics from me, preventing me from killing her for 3 days. That was patched but now I had one steal a smoke ephemera and another stole a riven. I haven't felt that angry at an enemy in a long time but the fact that I can get it back makes it fine for me. I don't mind having my items stolen, it could be different for other players that lack the resource stockpiles but now that there's an opt in and opt out system there cannot be complaints about the stealing of items. You brought it down upon yourself. Don't birth a lich if you aren't ready for the challenge that comes with it.

LICH BLOCKING

Spoiler

   One of the worst things about this system is the problem created by both DE and players. I don't blame anyone for this but DE's own lack of foresight and that's fine... if it gets fixed. People are people and they make mistakes. Despite popular opinion that it's only because players dislike "Press X to Die" there are two reasons why and both are just as valid and sickening as each other.
   Lower level players will want to avoid executing the lich because it makes them tanky and difficult on them, one of the worst things about it. Thus is holds up the lich que, DE needs to fix that because not being able to avoid such a powerful lich at the start of mid game is an issue because it's not just immersion breaking it's impossibly difficult for them to even kill them. After trying their hardest and defeating the lich they're rewarded by getting snapped in half and getting an even harder lich.
   Higher level or smarter players see an exploit. Keeping the lich alive yields more thralls and murmurs per mission, then if you killed them outright. Several ideas are open to fix this but DE should figure this out themselves. This means players that want murmurs will lich block and troll those who want shots at their lich creating a mixed cesspool of hate and distrust which actively pushes players in a multiplayer experience into a solo que. 
   I don't often find this problem but I do know it exists as every few missions I find someone who purposefully leaves their lich out there to gather thralls. I've got no right tot ell others how to play their game and telling players to bite the bullet and just kill them, no matter what their reason is, just feels wrong. DE needs fixes for both of these problems and if you're avoiding the lich for these reasons then that's fine but of all the excuses this is the only one I'd find reasonable. 

REWARDS

Spoiler

   The rewards is where the system should be falling but the other issues seem to overshadow it. If lich blocking and other bugs weren't a problem then this would be the main focus of my criticism for the system. The grind itself is fine, I said that before, but the rewards do not justify the grind. At present duplicates and weaker weapons are completely useless to players and that Fatal Bullet enhancement system would be a step in the right direction. But the rewards from R Relics and the weapons themselves are not enough to justify this grind. Almost, but not enough. Ephemera are not rewards either.
   Also to those that said the lich is "sustainable" they aren't. Once you've obtained the weapons you're satisfied with then you're done. that's it. They aren't 1 and done, but there is a limit to how many lich a player would need to kill to experience all the content and they can only remain fun for so long. They are not sustainable and again THEY AREN'T RAIDS! but oh well. There are in total 13 kuva weapons. That means the most lucky players only really need to play this 13 times to experience it all. That cannot be classified as sustainable content. Maybe semi sustainable, but not sustainable.

   I know that some people see me commenting that this system is negative and will accuse me of changing my mind, and I think I have... slightly. I was somewhat irritated but I'm calmer now. Despite that I still hold my ground saying the reward makes the grind and in my experience and time with the system this still isn't worth it. The staggered grinding is somewhat obnoxious but I can handle it and it's fair. Yes I play it, but it's not because I'm after weapons. I'm purely after ephemera to test my luck again and again and to continue to refine my opinion of the system as it grows.

   Look, this system was in development for 2 years. This should obviously be much better and vastly superior to what we have now. 2 years is almost as much time as Emperyon has been in development. I mean, Zephyr Deluxe was revealed 2 years ago! Anthem was developed in under a year.... apparently. LoR has actually shown us that the development of this system was somewhat... messy so it's to be expected this was somewhat of a flop. Compared to many other releases the nemesis system was apparently unorganized and scattered. This is DE's fault for not having this thought out because the system feels rushed and uncreative.With DE's ambitious standards this could have been oh so much more and this would be one system I'd be fine with them putting ambition into. If you avoid this system that's fine but calling this update a creative failure would be an injustice to what DE has produced.
   It's also not done updating yet, don't let that push you away from criticizing but it isn't done yet. Taking the system at current value and using that as your impression for the updates to come is the wrong way to view this system. 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

Wish the game would take a skill based approach instead of grind based.

Games live & die by their grinds, but the ones that last allow player skill to beat the odds (of rng), Warframe isn't that but desperately needs it, but all DE can do is add more grind to this top-heavy game because (unkind things that had to be redacted). DE can have all the technical expertise in the world, but when it comes to art & style, stuff like this makes DE appear burned out. (More stuff that I wanted to type but ultimately decided to also redact because I'm emotional & love the game too much).

[RogueSyndiva]

I hate this update, I hate it even more when some random prick is affecting the whole map just to make sure I'll kill him/her. Guessing the right combination, no thanks. This update sucks.

[SnowRyder]

i mean who doesnt love to waste time on killing/converting a lich that gives you absolutely nothing because you have the weapon or a better version of it already?

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-11-03 at 2:56 AM, DrakeWurrum said:

I am of exactly the opposite mind on this. I'm loving this system, and no... it doesn't feel half-baked to me at all.

I'm glad to finally have content I can work at, instead of just popping into a 20-minute mission and, oh look they handed everything I've ever wanted to me on a silver platter (RNG permitting).

It's not perfect. There's some room for improvement (like... it's stealing my Kuva relics. And my traces). But I don't feel the salt the way you are.

Pretty much this, I'd like to see diegetic changes (Lich starts with less and gets more armour piece as level increases, only gets a warframe helmet decoration when it defeats a Warframe, I'd like murmurs to reveal order after a full set reveal, scatter in alternate idles from Warframes as stance really differentiates personality, also section off the dialogue to provide more defined personalities, and they really, really need more voices and voice lines)

I'd like to see reward changes to reward defeating a lich with a weapon that's useless to you (E.G. award a lot of Kuva for draining and converting the Kuva Lich) and maybe a few riven slivers. That would make it usefull repeat content.

But.. There is a lot of really good design in there. The randomized percentage is great, it gives you a lot up front (the weapon) and allows you to work on improvement (getting the weapon again with a higher percentage) if you want to which priovides long-tail opotional content. Having the option to has 60+ content lying around the starchart is great and the relics giving riven slivers makes murmur hunting much more rewarding.

Overall it's a solid "B" (though it did start as a "C-" at launch) and it only needs some fairly lightweight changes to be an "A" and the extra voicework (which is costly) would take it to "A+"

Edited December 10, 2019 by SilentMobius

[ValinorAtani]

 

vor 17 Minuten schrieb SilentMobius:

I'd like to see reward changes to reward defeating a lich with a weapon that's useless to you (E.G. award a lot of Kuva for draining and converting the Kuva Lich) and maybe a few riven slivers. That would make it usefull repeat content.

At least they could give us a decent amount of Kuva. Maybe 10k or even more depending on the Level of the Lich. They are made of it. So why cant I put them into mixer and extracting their Life Juice. Its so depressing :(

I would bet that people would spend even more Money to buy Plat for Rivens if the Kuva Incoming would be highly better for additional rolls

Edited December 10, 2019 by ValinorAtani

[Vyra]

On 2019-11-03 at 3:47 AM, veryhighcholesterol said:

This half-baked system has introduced a tidal-wave of anti-fun and participating in it is a chore.

We can't kill the lich without the proper runes, fine. We need to open requiem relics to get those runes, okay. The only way to get the relics is kuva siphons, ugh. The relics may not always *give* those words, christ. When you finally get them, you don't know which words are the correct words without grinding for requiem murmurs for literal hours, getting old. Then when you know what runes to bring, you have to throw yourself at this jerkwad and *pray* that you had them in correct order, ugh. If you guess wrong you're instakilled, yeah great that's fine no really that's super awesome. Did I mention the literal fun tax? You don't get your loot until it dies. The upgraded grineer guns are neat, until you have to pay a 5-forma tax to get that last bit of mastery!

So there's a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind within a grind and all it's giving me is a headache. This system in its current incarnation sucks ass and is significantly overtuned. I'll nip the incoming slippery slope fallacies in the bud and say I'm not asking for handouts or asking for game-journalist easymode. What I'm asking for is a gameplay mechanic that doesn't turn me to drinking. Dial back the grind. DE promised us they would never introduce a grind as obnoxious as Cetus ever again, and then they introduced one that's even worse.

As i understand the Lich system its something for us we can fiddle with rather than getting rewards to minmax our gameplay...
Not sure what you guys do when you could get all weapons and auras in the first day without any sort of work...you would complain.. or.. people did already complain because they got all weapons within 2 weeks...

[DrakeWurrum]

8 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Overall it's a solid "B" (though it did start as a "C-" at launch) and it only needs some fairly lightweight changes to be an "A" and the extra voicework (which is costly) would take it to "A+"

I have adjusted my opinion on the overall feel of the system, but I'd still give it a passing C+. If they could address the following, it could be an amazing system:

• Auto-death when you fail the Parazon (right now I just down the lich and let it eventually run away) - We really shouldn't die for failing a guessing game. Why can't we at least grind a fourth murmur to learn the exact order?
• Liches ranking up is not a desirable outcome - Seriously, making the lich level up should result in increasing the bonus damage percentage on the weapon, up to a guaranteed maximum outcome at rank 5.
• Murmur grind is ridiculously long and boring - I would rather hunt down mini-boss lich lieutenants for one murmur each, instead of random grunts
• Charges on Requiem mods (nobody likes it, it's just adding extra grind, and T5 relics were a bad idea to begin with) - At the very least, Requiem mods should be the common drop on T5 relics, and slivers and kuva should be the Uncommon, as endgame grind drops. And instead of the Exilus Adapter BPs, they should've put Umbra Forma BPs.
• A way to "select" which weapon our lich has - I quite like the idea of the Larvlings running around with the standard variant of the different kuva weapons. Say we find a Quartakk Larvling. We kill that with Ember, the resulting lich has a Heat bonus Kuva Quartakk. Still has RNG factor in which Larvling you spawn, but at least then we can pick and choose what lich we have.
• Converting your lich is worthless (They randomly spawn and, so far, ruin everything!) - We need craftable beacons for spawning in our liches when we actually want them. It would be ridiculously cool if we could use the Crimson Branch room to switch which lich is active, and maybe even, say... modify/upgrade their gear with kuva. Treat them like REAL minions.

Edited December 10, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[(PSN)thegarada]

My biggest issue with the system is that it does not add anything new. The encounters with the liches do not have any mechanic. Just stay far, to avoid being one shot with a scripted melee attack and use parazon when lich is down. Thralls are nothing more than a regular mob. And you are playing same old missions. Nothing new or interesting here. There needs to be some mechanics added here. 

My second issue is how random it is to finish the lich hunt. It took me 35-45 minutes to finish one and 4 hours for another. The progress to complete the hunt being so RNG is a terrible design. DE needs to fix this by increasing the murmar gain on the second parazon mod by 33% and the last one by 66% (only if you need to actually gain them from thralls). In addition, the parazon mod position should be known once discovered. No need for RNG inside RNG inside a grind. This makes it if you are unlucky in the parazon mod guesses the process does not drag on forever.

My last issue, is the weapon affix range. Minimum range should be 36% instead of 26%. I should not have to farm the same damn weapons 3-4 times (on a 1/14 chance for the weapon to role) to get it to be decent. 

Lastly, not an issue for me personally (I eat level 120 mobs like candy). But someone fresh out of the War Within Quest, is not ready to fight level 120 mobs. They will probably activate it without knowing. Then would not know how to get rid of the lich. And even if they figure that out, they may get stuck with an untradable lich. There needs to be a way to get rid of the liches without trading (Rebecca already hinted at that).

Edited December 10, 2019 by (PS4)thegarada

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

• Auto-death when you fail the Parazon (right now I just down the lich and let it eventually run away) - We really shouldn't die for failing a guessing game. Why can't we at least grind a fourth murmur to learn the exact order?

Yep, I said that in the post you quoted. Optional gambling is fin if people are comfortable with it, but people who aren't should be able to spend the time to remove the russian roulette mechanic

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

• Liches ranking up is not a desirable outcome - Seriously, making the lich level up should result in increasing the bonus damage percentage on the weapon, up to a guaranteed maximum outcome at rank 5.

I'd be fine with some reward increase for higher rank liches, (it would need to be more than the paltry Kuva currently offered) but the randomised damage mechanism enables the long tail progression mechanic that I think is valuable, so that's a no for me.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

• Murmur grind is ridiculously long and boring - I would rather hunt down mini-boss lich lieutenants for one murmur each, instead of random grunts

I like having higher level starchart missions, I use them to level weapons and I think the murmur speed is pretty good (BWT I have all the Kuva weapons, so I did it a lot) so again, pass.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

• Charges on Requiem mods (nobody likes it, it's just adding extra grind, and T5 relics were a bad idea to begin with) - At the very least, Requiem mods should be the common drop on T5 relics, and slivers and kuva should be the Uncommon, as endgame grind drops. And instead of the Exilus Adapter BPs, they should've put Umbra Forma BPs.

I like it, otherwise the relics become pointless as once you have one of each requiem, you're done. I think it's a good consumable mechanic. There is no way DE are ever putting Umbra forma in there, that just madness.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

• A way to "select" which weapon our lich has - I quite like the idea of the Larvlings running around with the standard variant of the different kuva weapons. Say we find a Quartakk Larvling. We kill that with Ember, the resulting lich has a Heat bonus Kuva Quartakk. Still has RNG factor in which Larvling you spawn, but at least then we can pick and choose what lich we have.

I don't think your suggestion is tennable but I dn agree some mechanism to mitigate eternal unluckyness is needed

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

• Converting your lich is worthless (They randomly spawn and, so far, ruin everything!) - We need craftable beacons for spawning in our liches when we actually want them. It would be ridiculously cool if we could use the Crimson Branch room to switch which lich is active, and maybe even, say... modify/upgrade their gear with kuva. Treat them like REAL minions.

Randon spawn is ok, but an optional beacon system would be nice as an addition.

Overall I think it's important to remember DE goals here, to give us something to do across a longer period. Any suggestion that shortens that period more now they're settled is likely just never going to happen.

Edited December 10, 2019 by SilentMobius

[Aldisun]

My biggest criticism of the system is that it is not conducive to team/clan plan. If my clan-mates/friends want to go Kuva Lich hunting we don't find our Liches as quickly as we would if we played separately and let matchmaking find groups for us. This is because one's lich occupies certain parts of the system and when you select matchmaking then the game combines you with other players that all have their Liches on that same node. However when you play with friends/clan mates you do not always share the same nodes for your liches, so there is a good chance your or your friend's Lich won't even show up. This is an atrocious design because it penalizes pre-made groups in the Lich system.

 My friends and I are better off playing separately from each other in this game mode. That is is the worst thing you could design in a coop game.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Charges on Requiem mods (nobody likes it, it's just adding extra grind, and T5 relics were a bad idea to begin with) - At the very least, Requiem mods should be the common drop on T5 relics, and slivers and kuva should be the Uncommon, as endgame grind drops. And instead of the Exilus Adapter BPs, they should've put Umbra Forma BPs.

I actually like the T5s somewhat.

However I do agree that the Requiems being uncommons was a mistake, as for the rares I think each of the 4 should have had a unique forma or adapter blueprint on it, one for weapon/frame exilus each and one for aura/umbra forma each.

[SordidDreams]

6 minutes ago, Aldisun said:

My biggest criticism of the system is that it is not conducive to team/clan plan. If my clan-mates/friends want to go Kuva Lich hunting we don't find our Liches as quickly as we would if we played separately and let matchmaking find groups for us. This is because one's lich occupies certain parts of the system and when you select matchmaking then the game combines you with other players that all have their Liches on that same node. However when you play with friends/clan mates you do not always share the same nodes for your liches, so there is a good chance your or your friend's Lich won't even show up. This is an atrocious design because it penalizes pre-made groups in the Lich system.

 My friends and I are better off playing separately from each other in this game mode. That is is the worst thing you could design in a coop game.

That is a huge issue that I don't see discussed much in lich complaint threads, yet it's one of the things that I hate the most about the system. Whoever thought this was a good idea should be made to write "I will not design a co-op game to discourage and punish playing with friends" five hundred times on a blackboard while wearing a dunce hat.

[DrakeWurrum]

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

the randomised damage mechanism enables the long tail progression mechanic that I think is valuable

Adding in grind to do just for the sake of making something last longer is just fluff that arbitrarily slows players down. It's more of a positive to give players a way to actually influence their drops and reward player choice/effort/skill.

I don't mind long-term, sustainable content. I crave it. But RNG that could give you a bad weapon isn't the way to do that. What they did with the weapons has lots of people upset enough to refuse to do the content, so it obviously backfired.

For liches to be long-term, sustainable content, they need to offer more than just a list of weapons that we can grind and grind and grind to perfect, that are arbitrarily RNG enough that finding that perfect version is drawn out. Because it's still not sustainable. We'll eventually either get the perfect versions of the specific weapons we want, or else we'll just choose to be satisfied with what we do have, and you'll simply be done with liches.

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

I like it, otherwise the relics become pointless as once you have one of each requiem, you're done. I think it's a good consumable mechanic. There is no way DE are ever putting Umbra forma in there, that just madness.

They don't become pointless. With what I suggested, they'd be a good way to farm slivers and kuva, and you have a rare shot at getting an Umbra Forma, which could potentially require kuva to build. That Umbra Forma alone would incentivize people to keep farming and farming, continuously, especially if they put out more reasons to actually use the Umbra polarity. At the very least, an Aura Forma BP would be good enough.

Forcing us to farm consumable mods is honestly NOT a good consumable mechanic. It's not something I've seen anybody else praise. If we could also convert Requiem mods into kuva, or for a huge amount of Endo that makes them worth farming, then the mods themselves will still have value even if you don't need the actual mod itself.

1 hour ago, SilentMobius said:

I like having higher level starchart missions, I use them to level weapons and I think the murmur speed is pretty good (BWT I have all the Kuva weapons, so I did it a lot) so again, pass.

I do enjoy the higher level missions. I dislike the ridiculous length of the murmur grind, how many missions I have to run to even reveal a THIRD of what it takes to kill my lich. I would prefer to have a high level mission where I take down a mini-boss with a guaranteed completed murmur as a reward, or at least a decent percentage chance of a completed murmur. Make it a decent challenging fight, like fighting a less-powerful version of your lich, influenced by their powers. The grind would be shorter, and more satisfying, because it wouldn't just be slaughtering slightly-more-powerful grunts 130 times.

Hell, they could even toss in rewards specific to the lieutenants. Like an additional way to farm your lich's weapon. Or the possibility of getting Requiem mods from them.

Again, the length of this content is arbitrarily thrown in specifically to make it last longer, rather than actually being meaningful. It's busywork, essentially, and that's not a good gaming experience.

Edited December 10, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Adding in grind to do just for the sake of making something last longer is just fluff that arbitrarily slows players down. It's more of a positive to give players a way to actually influence their drops and reward player choice/effort/skill.

"grind" is not a useful term. It boils down to "The game but I don't like it". "Infulence" does not mean "choose" drops in this game are random for a reason. the main reward from liches is no different, shorcutting that is not what DE want no what the players need

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I don't mind long-term, sustainable content. I crave it. But RNG that could give you a bad weapon isn't the way to do that. What they did with the weapons has lots of people upset enough to refuse to do the content, so it obviously backfired.

Given that DE haven't changed course and they are the only one with actual numbers on engagement I'm going to have to say I disagree.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

For liches to be long-term, sustainable content, they need to offer more than just a list of weapons that we can grind and grind and grind to perfect, that are arbitrarily RNG enough that finding that perfect version is drawn out. Because it's still not sustainable. We'll eventually either get the perfect versions of the specific weapons we want, or else we'll just choose to be satisfied with what we do have, and you'll simply be done with liches.

You just described every MR reward in warframe, making the MR part faster does nothing to help that. repeatable rewards do and I've already commented on that (The Riven slivers are a good repeatable reward for the early sections of Litch gameplay, we just need late-term repeatables)

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

They don't become pointless. With what I suggested, they'd be a good way to farm slivers and kuva

I suggested similar, that makes a good value add and a reason for post MR to be run, doesn't mean you get to accelerate the MR section just 'cos.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

and you have a rare shot at getting an Umbra Forma,

That's not going to happen, if you don't understand why DE need to have an absolute hard cap on the amount of those availabe, I don't know what to tell you.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Forcing us to farm consumable mods is honestly NOT a good consumable mechanic. It's not something I've seen anybody else praise.

I disagree with your assertion. It's essential to the relic loop without it the entire relic segment becomes redundant. You may not like it, but it's good design DR know that even if the players don't.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I do enjoy the higher level missions. I dislike the ridiculous length of the murmur grind, how many missions I have to run to even reveal a THIRD of what it takes to kill my lich. I would prefer to have a high level mission where I take down a mini-boss with a guaranteed completed murmur as a reward,

Not going to happen, you're just accelerating completion again. Not viable, not good design, typical player response though. I have a full set of weapons and I didn't roulette my murmers, the time to do that was fine.

1 hour ago, DrakeWurrum said:

Again, the length of this content is arbitrarily thrown in specifically to make it last longer, rather than actually being meaningful. It's busywork, essentially, and that's not a good gaming experience.

The problem here is your personal definition of "meaningful" not the lich/murmur mechanic.

[DrakeWurrum]

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

accelerating completion

You keep using that phrase, after suggesting that "grind" boils down to "the game but I don't like it"

That's really inaccurate. It's also, quite frankly, very insulting. You don't know me or how much time I've put into enjoying this game, so don't make such assumptions about what I don't like.

I shouldn't have to explain what grind is to you. Grind is busywork. Grind is when achieving your goal requires you to essentially do some chores. Grind is when you're made to do a task, usually repetitively, that is tedious, for the purpose of EVENTUALLY getting a reward.

Grind has no real gameplay value. And I say this as someone who actually likes Nightwave. There's a reason players in MMOs genuinely loathe grinding daily quests for reputation. It's fluff put in to arbitrarily drag content out and make it SEEM like there's more content than there actually is.

For this reason, yes, I absolutely want to accelerate completion on murmurs. It's a stage of fighting our liches that is beyond tedious with absolutely no tangible gains for it. There's no reason to arbitrarily drag out lich content by having us kill 130 thralls instead of, say, 50. Or even if we instead fought anywhere between 3 and 15 mini-bosses. Frankly, I just want the mini-boss fight because I find that more fun and engaging than farming a randomly-spawned worthless piece of cannon fodder.

The grind would still be there, but the grind would be small enough to not kill a player's fun. Any time that grind is put into a game, developers need to be careful not to make the grind so tedious that people lose interest part way through. It's a game. It should be fun. It shouldn't feel like a chore. That doesn't mean it shouldn't require effort, but it does means the effort should feel meaningful. It's a delicate balance, and I'm saying DE tilted it badly in the wrong direction.

You say "accelerating completion"
I say "reduce needless grind"

Grind can be good. This grind is not. It's current implementation is tedious, to the point that it sucks the fun out of what would otherwise be an amazing game feature.

And then with the RNG weapon drops... that's another beast entirely. The type of weapon, and it's damage bonus value, are both random. This creates a level of grind that is absolutely frustrating. Because then it's not about progressing, it's about winning your dice roll. That's not engaging gameplay. It's just playing a slot machine.

Which wouldn't be so damn bad if liches didn't take such a ridiculous amount of work to clear out.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

You may not like it, but it's good design DR know that even if the players don't.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Given that DE haven't changed course and they are the only one with actual numbers on engagement I'm going to have to say I disagree.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

that is not what DE want no what the players need

Why do you put so much blind faith in them? They're human. They make mistakes. And, more importantly, DE doesn't have the freedom to change course right now. They're 100% tunnel-vision on finishing Empyrean right now. They openly declared this in the last devstream as the reason they're not currently looking at anything related to the liches. They never said they're done, or that it's fine right now.

It's also the case that your position suggests there's no reason for players to ever give feedback through online communities, because clearly the devs know all and see all.

Stop being such a damn avocado. I can't speak as if I know every player in the game, but I can A: look at how online communities are reacting and B: look at the game systems with my own eyes and see what sticks out like a sore thumb. And the lich system has a lot of sore thumbs.

You insisting that this is good design doesn't mean that it is good design, because what I am seeing from you is that you are generally in disagreement with people on grind itself, more than just the lich system.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

That's not going to happen, if you don't understand why DE need to have an absolute hard cap on the amount of those availabe, I don't know what to tell you.

I fully disagree with this assessment. If Umbra polarity/mods is ever going to be more than just a one-time gimmick, they need to build on it.

Edited December 11, 2019 by DrakeWurrum

[844448]

On 2019-12-10 at 6:35 PM, ValinorAtani said:

 

At least they could give us a decent amount of Kuva. Maybe 10k or even more depending on the Level of the Lich. They are made of it. So why cant I put them into mixer and extracting their Life Juice. Its so depressing 😞

Yeah better not because someone will surely complain about not enough kuva from lich with many excuses so better not giving that option in the first place

[ValinorAtani]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb 844448:

Yeah better not because someone will surely complain about not enough kuva from lich with many excuses so better not giving that option in the first place

So not giving players who didnt care about the Lich itself or about the Weapons (I mean those are mostly reskinned ones of already existing ones) an additional incentive to play it?

For DEs Future and their own goodwill I would like to see more incentive to play an isolated Island instead of its going the same as all other gamemodes which are separeted.

[(NSW)ToadBlue]

28 minutes ago, ValinorAtani said:

So not giving players who didnt care about the Lich itself or about the Weapons (I mean those are mostly reskinned ones of already existing ones) an additional incentive to play it?

For DEs Future and their own goodwill I would like to see more incentive to play an isolated Island instead of its going the same as all other gamemodes which are separeted.

I'd rather they offer a steady trickle of rewards for fighting back against the Lich to keep me at least a little more invested in clearing out nodes of the Lich's influence, instead of doing the exact opposite and depriving me of my loot for fighting its influence. Having the only reward of the Lich system be at the very end of it with the Lich's death/conversion is a major flaw with the system, which is why players power through it as fast as possible: they have no reason or incentive to take their time, because the only reason to interact with the Lich system is the reward at the end of it, because nothing else about the system is enjoyable.

Adding another kind of pay-off at the end would do nothing but exacerbate the problem even further, if you ask me.

[anonimus_riga]

ONE accidental kill with "use" (x) button mapped on mouse and now this whole $ith is forced on me without option to shut that stupid thing up.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

 

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb anonimus_riga:

ONE accidental kill with "use" (x) button mapped on mouse and now this whole $ith is forced on me without option to shut that stupid thing up.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!

 

If you play as mindfull as you post you acually deserved this.