Do you agree if warframe abilities require line of sight? (and another thing))

[844448]

Remember those people who keep saying we need AI tweak on enemies to combat us for challenge? Such as taking cover more than staying in the open? There's one flaw they never thought about : Our abilities disrespect cover, interaction and any kind that allows AI to respond.

To be frank, the AI is actually pretty tactical where they regroup, take cover, stay behind shield unit and throw grenades but unfortunately can't do much when they get covered in miasma or blasted with void magic out of nowhere when they're behind cover.

That being said, if you people want to, all abilities now require line of sight, making enemies behind cover actually save to act from shooting to throwing grenades.

Skills are based on your position relative to enemy position. For example, if you use maim, miasma or whatever kind of ability, you can no longer blast those enemies to oblivion when they're behind an obstacle or wall so you have to actively move and get line of sight in order to have your abilities work. No more afk camping with ability turned on

Secondly, about that one post saying bullet jump is bad because you can just spam the maneuver with aim glide, double jump, flip, etc to traverse quickly and one thing for sure I'm not going to put cool down on it (f*ck cool down)

There are 2 ways of "nerfing" it

1. Spamming horizontally will reduce the overall momentum, so you can't spam it. Vertical momentum is not affected

2. Reduced the momentum right away, with sprinting increasing momentum (think of it as your usual long jump on parkour, etc)

You guys can put your opinion and you guys know who I'm referring to

Edited November 8, 2019 by 844448

[BansheePrime]

I'd cry if Sonar got LoS. Half the reason I use it in survival is to find more enemies. Course LoS on Sonar would not make much sense...

Edited November 7, 2019 by BansheePrime

[Pizzarugi]

As someone who is tired of frames like Equinox, Saryn and Volt nuking rooms and leaving me nothing to do except walk to extraction, LoS gets a yes.

[HugintheCrow]

Do you agree if 844448 stopped spamming pointless drama-bait threads?

[Tyreaus]

7 minutes ago, 844448 said:

That being said, if you people want to, all abilities now require line of sight, making enemies behind cover actually save to act from shooting to throwing grenades.

Not all abilities. Like the shiny screecher above says, some need to bypass terrain to be useful.

The damage properties of abilities, on the other hand...

It's almost always possible to disallow parts of abilities from going through terrain. Like damage. I'd wager that's the better way to go.

As for bullet jumping...I mean, it's part of a way to get around fast. Take it away and someone's going to bring up Heavy Blades and how you can spam a few of their attacks for their decent speed instead. The problem might be closer rooted to the fact we always need to go fast and get through missions as fast as possible. Which may mean, if bullet jumping is too ubiquitous, other things - like sprinting - should be made faster instead, so it isn't just bullet jumping all the time.

That's just my thoughts, though.

[Corvid]

I'd say it depends on the ability.

[Swagernator22663]

Oh so this is again one of those threads where OP cry about Saryn ... i see.

[Loza03]

The thing about these 'if all abilities got X' threads is... well, not all abilities are equal.

Some abilities are very weak in terms of direct effects, but are decent utility. Other game breaking (or potentially if they weren't overshadowed by something else) abilities only apply to the player. Others still are only so powerful with LoS because of something else (for example, Cataclysm isn't OP, stasis is), so nerfing them would be missing the point. There are some that it probably should apply to, others which should get other balancing elements.

Simply put, there isn't a unilateral way to 'fix' abilities, so these threads will never amount to anything more than thought experiments at best, or drama bait at worst.

 

As for Bullet Jumping, maybe the environments we bullet jump around need to be better. It's less powerful in Jupiter because it has elements of more precise platforming, or in the Kuva Fortress because it has tight spaces. And at the end of the day Warframe's never going to be Dark Souls, it just needs to put up enough resistance to not be completely brain-dead to play.

[Aldain]

7 minutes ago, HugintheCrow said:

Do you agree if 844448 stopped spamming pointless drama-bait threads?

Would you prefer more people spamming "PUNISH LICH AVOIDERS" threads?

844448's topics are like grand philosophy compared to those.

[HugintheCrow]

Just now, Aldain said:

Would you prefer more people spamming "PUNISH LICH AVOIDERS" threads?

844448's topics are like grand philosophy compared to those.

You do have a point.

[Yasha-7HS]

No. 

AI needs to be better, but 90% of abilities that randomly gain LoS suddenly die completely. There are some that should have LoS limitations, but spore? It's an airborne contagion, in what #*!%ing world does a knee high wall act like a gas mask? 

Destiny 2, for example, has better enemy AI and doesn't require every ability to be LoS for no reason. They don't stand and slowly walk towards you as they shoot, nor do they just sit there while being shot. They don't do moderate jogs away to get to cover, they actually have good animations and do real tactical dodges. Fallen, for example, actually lower their head to the floor and scuttle away at a quick pace to make it far more difficult to headshot them. 

Just now, Loza03 said:

The thing about these 'if all abilities got X' threads is... well, not all abilities are equal.

This is part of what makes the current philosophy DE chose with ability nullification and things like ESO, where it'll disable your 4 regardless of its function or purpose, just because it's in the 4th slot. Spore is Saryn's best ability, but you can cast it essentially infinitely in ESO. 

You fall off the map with Gauss and cast Redline again immediately? Prepare for a cooldown. 

[iLightning13]

Yes, for damaging abilities only, and if there's no explicit reason why they should go through walls. Excalibur's Javelins are pretty useless because of how few enemies they hit (and the amount of damage they do), where other frames get to use abilities which similarly don't make much sense going through walls. For example, Gara's splinter storm also lobs projectiles (of glass) into the enemy, but doesn't suffer such harsh LoS restrictions.

An obvious exception would be Banshee's 4th ability, because sound travels through walls.

Edited November 7, 2019 by iLightning13
comment was vague

[NoSpax]

Fun Fact: Oldschool Saryn required LoS for her 1. Now she casts through walls, lol? 

[Test-995]

NO.

Why? because it enforce already rather serious problem of "tile tier" even worse.

Just like we didn't liked everything but excavation in old arbitration, we would start hating lot of tiles.

[Aldain]

21 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Remember those people who keep saying we need AI tweak on enemies to combat us for challenge? Such as taking cover more than staying in the open? There's one flaw they never thought about : Our abilities disrespect cover, interaction and any kind that allows AI to respond.

To be frank, the AI is actually pretty tactical where they regroup, take cover, stay behind shield unit and throw grenades but unfortunately can't do much when they get covered in miasma or blasted with void magic out of nowhere when they're behind cover.

That being said, if you people want to, all abilities now require line of sight, making enemies behind cover actually save to act from shooting to throwing grenades.

Skills are based on your position relative to enemy position. For example, if you use maim, miasma or whatever kind of ability, you can no longer blast those enemies to oblivion when they're behind an obstacle or wall so you have to actively move and get line of sight in order to have your abilities work. No more afk camping with ability turned on

Secondly, about that one post saying bullet jump is bad because you can just spam the maneuver with aim glide, double jump, flip, etc to traverse quickly and one thing for sure I'm not going to put cool down on it (f*ck cool down)

There are 2 ways of "nerfing" it

1. Spamming horizontally will reduce the overall momentum, so you can't spam it. Vertical momentum is not affected

2. Reduced the momentum right away, with sprinting increasing momentum (think of it as your usual long jump on parkour, etc)

Now to be on topic (and actually I've always wanted to discuss this issue):

Overall the issue with line of sight is that only some abilities are too strong when they ignore it. One person pointed out Sonar for example, which logically wouldn't need line of sight because that is how Sonar works.

I'd say that DE would need to do some analysis of which abilities abuse the line-of-sight problems and deal with those exclusively rather than doing it for every ability.

As for the bullet jump thing I'd say it doesn't need a fix, I think all they'd need to do is make the enemies react a bit faster to our higher movement, maybe not with Crowd Control, but perhaps positioning themselves differently if we jump over their Blunt for example, swapping the side of the cover if you jump over them or moving quickly to different cover would also work. Really the enemies are too slow to react in my opinion, they don't need to be as fast as we are but right now we are so fast that the A.I. can't keep up.

[kwlingo]

Well Im sorry to say but DE already stated rework on punch through for weapons when catchmoon is nerfed because over 50% or player base use of weapon. They already have this effect on weapons that chain for example Amprex and Atomos and damage is reduced per link. It makes sense, damage should scale down per enemy hit, seeing nerfs for weapons like Ignis and Arca Plasmor no damage reduction, to have it. Therefor the code is already in game. Now apply this to object in game also and you can have a nukers but, if enemies are running in the other room or taking cover they will be protected from walls or atleast reduced damage based on how many objects interfere before reaching them. Also they applied this to melee going through walls about 1.5years ago, so abilities should have the same effect. Example 10 brain dead enemies running in a line, first takes most damage, each on after takes a reduced and with enough  the damage is nullified at the back end. But if they are all within super close range apply full damage except if there is wall that protects them.

[(XBOX)BlueDually]

The problem with trying to fine tune AoE abilities to be line of sight is that DE would need to give every in game asset a lot of unnecessary coding. Because if we were honest some abilities and weapons would put enough holes or out right obliterate things we would be venting any ship's atmosphere into space. Its space ninja magic and doesn't need to be grounded in more real life physics, because that leads to the game being less fun.

 

 

[kwlingo]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

The thing about these 'if all abilities got X' threads is... well, not all abilities are equal.

Some abilities are very weak in terms of direct effects, but are decent utility. Other game breaking (or potentially if they weren't overshadowed by something else) abilities only apply to the player. Others still are only so powerful with LoS because of something else (for example, Cataclysm isn't OP, stasis is), so nerfing them would be missing the point. There are some that it probably should apply to, others which should get other balancing elements.

 

I agree 100%. Some think all need it but no only some. Buff on loot desecret/ damage buff/ decoys  dont need cool downs but nukers/infinite health or armor yes. If not give me back Old Ember and we can end the conversation of Nukers. lol If not it should be a build out like Guass or Equniox except 50meter room clearing. lol

[0_The_F00l]

Not all abilities are equal.

You will first need to identify and evaluate teh skills that actually are more powerful because they aren't LoS , then maybe we can have a proper discussion.

This just feels like a call for nerf of specific frames.

[(XBOX)Ashen Rust]

Do I agree with you? No. Have a nice day. 

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

personally frames abilities and roles vary so its a case by case thing for me 

as an example i can on excal umbra outdamage some saryns spore builds as my build is built well and i know how to use it. is this always the case for me roughly 80%

so when people state saryn needs to be nerfed to death, i just shrug ,as it never hurt my ability to play. 

i was here when she was a meh frame and got buf/nerf back and forth, so i think maybe her implementation needs tweaks , but overall she fills her role and can do a variety of builds (though 90% do super spore cause youtube) 

so imo any frame can be made into a nuker or mass dps aoe if you build a correct build and weapon synergy. but then i know a lot of vets know that as well.

frames have roles or combat tactices that are ideal for their kit, nukers ARE meant to take out large amounts of enemies , but most nukers are glass jawed so not much in terms 

as an example if you bring a valkyr and complain that a saryn kills everything before you get to it , cause your a close combat frame , well thats not true, some enemies like nulls , nox ect are unaffected or harder to insta kill, if the cannonfodder enemies who are already easy to one-shot die go after the bigger enemies that dont get one-shot, dont get so focused on mobs, focus on target types your frame can deal with over what another can.

so if saryn nuking weaker enemies kill heavys. its not a competition to get most kills or most damage, the goal is to SURVIVE and reach point end without death.

using a frost to provide def , a saryn to nuke, an equinox to buf and a valkyr to deal with big enemies makes for a solid squad setup to stay alive.

complaining about kill starvation isnt wrong mind you,  that just means the spawn rate or placements need adjusting 

overall one should look at the tactics involved with a frames kit

 

[Cloudyvisage]

Blanket LOS requirement? Definitely not, too much nuance there. Mechanically there are some abilities that should 'go through' walls just fine, such as Limb's Cataclysm as it suffuses an area in real space with limbo, how would it make sense that it doesn't affect behind some cover, it isn't projected from a center except initially, like water it should fill in any empty space, Similar reason for Volt's 4, though I don't think I would overly care if it had to have a path to reach it's target to hit it and couldn't just go through walls, i.e runs along walls and around corners up to it's max range from epicenter.

Saryn's 4? Yeah, I could see that needing LOS as it is basically an explosion, her 1? Nah, it's spores that spread from target to target, mayhaps the spores themselves have to have LOS on their attempted new target but certainly not from Saryn. Rhino Stomp definitely shouldn't need LOS given it's basically a localized space-time quake. Valkyr's scream? Shouldn't require LOS, same with most of Octavia's stuff, sound fills an empty space after all and hiding behind cover doesn't really protect you. They could do some tweaking to abilities but I don't think those tweaks will affect things in the way that you want them to.

[Mr.Fluffins]

Man it's a second topic about nerfing active Warframe abilities... Short answer is no, I do not think this is a good idea.

You guys should understand that although it might seem a bit annoying to see certain frames kill everything with abilities, it will be no different to seeing the same guys killing everything with large AOE weapons like Larkspur or melee with high range.

If you nerf active abilities (and with current layout, requiring LOS is a HUGE nerf), people will start using frames with strong passives like chroma, rhino, mirage, and kill everything with guns... It will simply hurt diversity and nothing else. You should understand that certain people sometimes feel like killing everyone with their magic powers, and not guns, why do you want to crap all over them?

[--Aegis--TaDoogThtWas]

Saryn's ability's are spores, and LoS wouldn't stop that. She launches spores out through the air that kill. So to have her need to have Line of Sight makes no sense. The description is:

"Miasma, Saryn pollutes the atmosphere with a lethally poisonous mist that corrodes all enemies in range. Deals additional damage to enemies under Toxin and Viral effects."

She pollutes the air. A wall might stop it. But it pollutes the air in an area around her. So LoS wouldn't be a factor.

 

And for another nuke frame, Volt. He launches a shockwave out from himself. How would it make sense for it to be affected by LoS? 

It emits an electric wave. Therefore it wouldn't make sense for it ot be affected by LoS.

[SneakyErvin]

Yes but certain frames would also need to be reworked.

Volt would need a chain lightning type mechanic on his 4 where LoS was needed to the first target only and then LoS between targets would decide how it jumps, I guess it would be the same deal for Saryn's #1. Her #4 could also be reworked into a non-damaging abilitiy that simply buffs #1 and procs the viral debuff on anything within range.

Equinox would probably require a full rework for the day form. Make the form far more tanky and just make it a map wide debuff that makes every damage instance inflicted on the target have a chance to inflict a slash proc on the target and everything within x meters and LoS of the target that is hit. Make it work kinda like Hunter's Munitions, but the 30% chance would apply to all hits and not just crits. The detonation mechanic of the #4 could be turned into a targetable AoE with an auto proc slash on hit. Could be a massive boss killer.