Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[YandereWaifu]

4 hours ago, -Fatal- said:

Well nobody forced you to buy the vault pack?

De needs to fix the "powercreep" everybody talks about.

power creep is inevitable though, there is no way to stop it, something shinny and new will always come that seems more appealing than older selections, this game thrives on making new "carrots on sticks" to draw out attention after all. further more nerfing a single frame wont help power creep in this game especially one who lets us fight it. a much more concrete and less bandaid approach would be fixing armor scaling.

[Loza03]

In fairness, it is DE's fault because they did put it in the game, but that means it is their job to fix it. Just because it has a beneficial effect for players doesn't make it good.

I agree that your philosophy is the closest thing to a 'correct' way to play Warframe, and it is why nerfs are necessary. But players at most draw attention to a problem, they aren't themselves the problem.

[YandereWaifu]

2 minutes ago, bad4youLT said:

This would have happend sooner or later like anything els with infinite scalability

 

she doesnt scale infinitely though, they have a cap for her, its just quite high (100,000+ damage ticks) as they wanted a frame who could scale high.

[Fellas92]

8 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

If I had to guess, it's because Saryn is as far on the problem spectrum, but much easier to fix. She needs numeric tweaks - Zephyr, Chroma, whatnot, they need full reworks and much more attention.

That's the problem. If we had better working frames, we wouldn't have the need to stick to one or the other. Yet this is the typical DE way of fixing things, stick a band-aid and move on.

[(PSN)BigLick]

22 minutes ago, Morticoccus said:

So that's why all the "Saryn nerf confirmed, Ha Ha!" Threads are being deleted...

Oh well.

Obviously not quick enough that @WhiteMarker can't reply to all of them. If you ever asked yourself how to boost your reputation, that's the way to go.

[AnuKaneDai]

I hear you both, you got goods points in your way. But seems that most people on the forum choose DE as guilty.
I think remembering that, Us tenno, play a major part on those decision is a point to dont forget. It's too easy to blame other.
And a lot of people complain for the sake of it and dont look at how they play.
Bringing the best option to complet a task is legitimate, getting stuck on it even if the situation dont recquiere that power it's also real, and not in DE hands.
Itzal 1 was efficent, but who many people enjoyed to spam it? They appriciate the confort not the ability. And did fly accross the plain without it is a chore?
Not a all. But when you took the toy of a children it start to cry no matter what.

I'm just shaking minds of people. Warframe gameplay is about how it's coded, but also how it's played. It's too easy to blame one side when you are on the numerous one.
It's always good to see things on another point of view.

@Loza03

@Smilomaniac

Edited December 3, 2019 by AnuKaneDai

[(XBOX)Almighty Deity]

3 hours ago, RX-3DR said:

The crux of the problem is that that 10 seconds involves most of it being spent outside line of sight where no other player can really interact with the enemy unless they go out of their way to constantly run into individual spawn rooms to finish them off.

That'd be defense, and yeah, that's how it typically goes regardless of what frames are used. Waiting for the bigger enemies to waddle out while the trash mobs have been dead for 20 seconds. This isn't exclusive to Saryn or really nuke frames in general.

Quote

Just some additional tidbit of information for you. This was from Devstream 133.

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm guessing the bigger portion is Saryn Prime since it wouldn't really make much sense for any oft he other frames with the similar color to control a sizable portion of players. Puts it closer to 10% rather than 5% in that case. Also doesn't account for game mode skewing. Chroma controls quite a notable amount but you don't really see Chroma in regular games.

Based on the colors Saryn is the one below the larger red. As crappy as that for chart is with compression artifacts it's not quite right. Even so I didn't intend that 5% to be the actual number, as I said before, hyperbole. I don't really see Saryn, and am far more likely to see tank frames. I'm more used to seeing a no ability Inaros than a unicorn Saryn.

I see Chroma more often than I see Saryn, and most Saryns I see can't easily out-DPS me, and I don't play nuke frames unless I'm blowing through relics or ESO(and that's very rare). Her ramp up doesn't really work well in exterminations, and while it's fine in defense types why is it even needed? Without her there's no problem, with her it's just another player. I tend to not get fixated on who kills more as long as I'm not playing running simulator, and I'm not typically with any frame.

Might I interest you in amalgam serration or that Sprint aura? Is it you simply can't keep up, or is it you're making a mountain out of a mole hill?

Edited December 3, 2019 by (XB1)Almighty Deity

[Xzorn]

16 minutes ago, Fellas92 said:

That's the problem. If we had better working frames, we wouldn't have the need to stick to one or the other. Yet this is the typical DE way of fixing things, stick a band-aid and move on.

 

Plenty of frames still work great. Exceptional even. Just not in new content where DE is adding Immunity, Magic DR and other cheese.

The flaws aren't with the frames. Some could use tweaks sure but mostly the content itself is to blame.

[CeePee]

46 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

So you prefer sweet talk over straight honesty?

That's not what it means, but go ahead.

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, Diangelius said:

Miasma is the only skill of Saryn which can do that in low level missions. But in low level missions, Limbo rekt them much better. In mid level, we got Volt. I take other Warframes because their 4th skill have the same crazy range without LoS limit.

This actually sounds as an argument for nerfing Limbo and Volt rather than an argument for not nerfing Saryn.

1 hour ago, Diangelius said:

For the spores to be utilized, you need to see at least 1 enemy to cast (yeah the LoS sucks, huh). So there are lots of cases where you cannot even see another one to cast spores before the spores completely decay.

Doesn't this apply to the initial cast only?

1 hour ago, Diangelius said:

Saryn is not suitable for those seeking for AFK playstyle. Saryn is a true Number Chaser. You need to run fast, and find the numbers and pump up the numbers. If Saryn could be strong because we play actively and play hard, it's worth it, no ?

That would've been true if spore spread had a fixed range with Saryn as the center. Basically, a range nerf.

[VentiGlondi]

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Different words, same outcome.

From my perspective Power Creep is something that needs to be opposed in a game. Opposition is how you create Difficulty. You need to fashion content equally to the gains you're giving players or everything goes to hell. You can say combat, oppose, growing. It's all the same technique. Consistent nerfing is not.

It's not the same outcome.

If your minor enemies are as strong as you expect them to be, but bosses don't feel... boss enough, you can fix that by buffing the bosses.

On the other hand if all enemies feel too weak, you can try fixing it by scaling the player down. Not only that, if there are other options available to the player, which you could say are just as strong as the devs want them to, buffing enemies will end up making those options weak. And then as a result those options need to be buffed as well. This is just giving more work to the devs just because people are afraid of the so called nerf.

 

For whatever reason a lot of people are into this buff-good nerf-bad mentality.

What if we actually do buff everything else? Now your Saryn is actually weaker than everything else! Just as if she got nerfed! Except it took way more work to do that instead of just tuning her down a bit.

Edited December 3, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I mean, just for example, maiming strike. Dont get me wrong. I never liked maiming strike and I get why they didnt like the spin2win meta but we are currently left with a crit chance mod that requires you slide that isnt worth using over a regular crit chance mod that simply works on every single attack. 

Can't say a mod can be an appropriate example. Technically, you can put both Maiming Strike and a regular crit chance mod in your build. This way you'll have most crit chance on slide attack. Also, you can't use Maiming Strike without a melee weapon. Did melee suffer? No. It could've suffered if DE didn't rework the whole melee system. But they did, and it would be a lie to say that melee is nerfed into the ground now.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xaero

[Jarriaga]

7 minutes ago, CeePee said:

That's not what it means, but go ahead.

What does it mean then when considering the end result?

[Xaero]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)Almighty Deity said:

I don't really see Saryn, and am far more likely to see tank frames. I'm more used to seeing a no ability Inaros than a unicorn Saryn.

I see Saryns in about 80% of my public plays, and I don't do ESO in public squads.

As for Inaros, I see him in 99% of Arbitrations (playing only Survival and Disruption), but almost never outside of them. Maybe because his survivability is too good while his skillset is not good enough.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Xaero

[Smilomaniac]

@AnuKaneDai

Itzal's blink was fair because you had to spend energy pizzas to get anywhere far. Meaning you literally paid to spam blink.
You're asking if anyone thinks it was enjoyable and to that I can only answer that it was a lot more fun than flying in a straight line and a lot better than the broken blink we have now. The comfort is a fine goal in itself.

I'm struggling to see your point with this thread or what you're writing. What point does it serve to say "when you took the toy of a children it start to cry no matter what" apart from insulting people who complain? That people are going to complain no matter what DE does? That DE is above criticism or getting flak for making bad choices?

You pointed out *why* DE nerfs things, but that's not really a great argument. Pablo being offended that people play Saryn in ESO is his own personal issue.
Scott/Steve complaining that people are pidgeon holed into using Itzal is again just their personal problem with what people do with the game, it doesn't mean he's right or that their solution is positive or a good change. I have yet to see anyone make an actual argument, let alone a good one, for why the game is better now.

It's easy to understand nerfs and why developers make the choice, but the reasons behind them aren't always good.
If this was a competitive PvP game that relied on e-sports for its longevity then balance would be crucial. As it stands for Warframe, balance is not that important. It's not irrelevant or pointless, but it's not at all as important as people will insist that it is.

I'm glad you appreciate my perspective, but it seems like it's more important to you that people don't complain, because you personally think it's more important to defend DE, maintain balance or some other lofty ideal. I value the actual experience above grand illusions about some optimal design that a player can never truly understand.
Note, I'm not saying that's what you're arguing, just saying that's what it sounds like to me.

[DenisJaguar]

9 hours ago, --C--Nehra said:

That's a very irresponsible move on his part in that case.

Yes it is.

If Pablo was a regular intern at DE and he had no effect of the game, what he said would be taken with a grain of salt. But, Because of the position he hold at DE, saying things like he did on his personal stream will have a feedback, good or bad.

Pablo as a DE employee, working on Warframe, because of the position he hold should never say out in the open that a Warframe should be nerf or anything in the game. Because now at the very moment, he his not nerfing her but the community knows its on the radar.

Talk like that, because of Pablo position at DE, should be only spoken on the DE dev stream or DE related content.

Even if you are not using DE on your stream and using only your name, you are still a DE employee and you have to watch what you say, even if you show a disclamer. I work for a law firm and i saw people losing job for action like he did.

[(PSN)de_sch0sch]

Lulz for him being attacked for having an opinion. It's an opinion, everyone has one, it doesn't matter and he's been pretty clear on that. If DE decides to revisit Saryn they will, what ever the reasoning might be.

[tzadquiel]

2 minutes ago, Spaceland said:

Yes it is.

If Pablo was a regular intern at DE and he had no effect of the game, what he said would be taken with a grain of salt. But, Because of the position he hold at DE, saying things like he did on his personal stream will have a feedback, good or bad.

no it isnt. 
he has stated that this is his opinion, ending on his own, and not-DE branded stream, and that he, personally, would like to rework saryn. not the first time he is saying it, if you are actually paid any attention in the past. and just because saryn players are afraid of losing their 1-button-cast skill based gameplay, and have entirely lost their sh!t on the forums due to this, is a completely different matter. 

2 minutes ago, Spaceland said:

Pablo as a DE employee, working on Warframe, because of the position he hold should never say out in the open that a Warframe should be nerf or anything in the game. Because now at the very moment, he his not nerfing her but the community knows its on the radar.

Talk like that, because of Pablo position at DE, should be only spoken on the DE dev stream or DE related content.

once again, no. what pablo says about Warframe is STRICLY between him and DE, and not you. for all you know, DE might be gauging the community response on this. once again, you have no idea. 

2 minutes ago, Spaceland said:

Even if you are not using DE on your stream and using only your name, you are still a DE employee and you have to watch what you say, even if you show a disclamer. I work for a law firm and i saw people losing job for action like he did.

'trust me I am a lawyer' lmao. 
I work with law firms too, bud. and I saw plenty of people who did the same, and nothing happened. so throwing him into the irresponsibility bag so ad hoc is not only harsh, but also, from a lawyer perspective, a big mistake on your ethos. 

 

[Xzorn]

 

10 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

If your minor enemies have as strong as you expect them to be, but bosses don't feel... boss enough, you can fix that by buffing the bosses.

On the other hand if all enemies feel too weak, you can try fixing it by scaling the player down. Not only that, if there are other options available to the player, which you could say are just as strong as the devs want them to, buffing enemies will end up making those options weak. And then as a result those options need to be buffed as well. This is just giving more work to the devs just because people are afraid of the so called nerf.

 

Buffing bosses was simply an example. Path takes pride in their Boss fights (and they should) They're very well designed and punishing while being approachable by countless builds something DE has comically failed horribly at doing. Nothing is strong as Devs want them; any Dev claiming everything is exactly like they planned is a liar.

Options only become "weak" in Warframe because of lack in detail and interest in scaling as I mentioned in my original post. Still, this mostly only applies to nuke abilities. Not guns or items which continue to just get bigger and bigger with every mod or arcane that's added to the game and personally I'd still take Volt's 4th CC at lvl 400. It's pretty strong even without the damage where something like Radial Javs is a prime example of that short sighted and lack of detail I mentioned.

DE kept adding to melee until it dished out massive damage and their answer was a global nerf of roughly 50%. They do it themselves and players suffer.

 

15 minutes ago, VentiGlondi said:

For whatever reason a lot of people are into this buff-good nerf-bad mentality.

What if we actually do buff everything else? Now your Saryn is actually weaker than everything else! Just as if she got nerfed! Except it took way more work to do that instead of just tuning her down a bit.

 

Nerfs are for managing viable options within a game not oppressing growth.

Majority of nerfs in Warframe don't even hit the things I use because I don't do ESO, Arbitration or any of the new content but that hardly omits the builds I make from being incredibly powerful in what they do and still managing to laugh at content. What is anything lvl 100 boss or otherwise going to do to 2 million eHP?

The game design is broken on a fundamental level and part of that is DE's scaling philosophy or lack of. No amount of Nerfs can fix that.

[844448]

2 hours ago, tzadquiel said:

what the f are you talking about, OP?

please tell me more about ALL THE NERFS DE did lately that make you so concerned.
please tell me about all the Pablo's promises of nerfing saryn, that make you so concerned. please tell me more about how you have agreed to play a game, agreed to its content, abused one boring build type to death, and how concerned you are with your delusional imaginations of a nerf that you have just made up, that would take that boring tactic away from you. I am all ears, man. 

another one smoking crack. too early for this on a tuesday....  

????

I'm just giving my opinion on Pablo's stream on another thread where saryn will get a rework. The only thing I see as broken is the spores where you can hit up to 100,000 damage per second while the rest are fine

[Numerikuu]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

I hope all the Sayrn fans are happy, because just from these topics alone I have gone from indifferent to her getting nerfed and being concerned that the game modes are more the issue making her OP to the other side of the fence.

I hope she gets nerfed now, just so all your premature hysteria can be worth it, I hope your utter meltdowns do nothing but convince DE that she needs to be nerfed so hard that people question that why they just didn't delete her.

Because with this utterly disgusting temper tantrum and level of personal assaults and outright IGNORANCE that is being displayed I am convinced that this theoretical nerf is completely deserved.

Calm down, Satan 😄...

...Kidding. But for real, I mostly agree (not with the spiteful nerf however.) This has all been blown waaay out of proportion. Y'all really need to calm your damn tits.

ESO Saryns:

[Fl_3]

All DE has to do is fix ESO so that one frame doesn't dominate it.

It's that simple, or it would be if DE was capable of doing it. It's way easier to fix a thing in a game than to fix the game itself.

Lets be honest, Warframe has a lot that needs fixing at the moment. There are bugs introduced in updates from last year that still haven't been fixed, you only have to see the bug report threads to see that.

DE seems to have gotten into the habit of throwing out content that isn't ready and then instead of fixing the issues throwing out more content to make us forget the problems that are still there. Old Blood and Rising tide are the perfect example, one is still causing issues, but Hey Tenno, you can build your Railjack now so go and concentrate on that and forget about the other!

Enough! Some of us don't care about new content. Please take some time to fix the game instead of just papering over the cracks over and over and over.

If you fix ESO the other frames become just as viable as Saryn. also, if you nerf Saryn, what happens when Equinox or Mirage takes her place? Do you nerf those as well until every frame is exactly the same shade of grey?

How boring will that be?

How un Warframe will that be?

[Aadi880]

2 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

All DE has to do is fix ESO so that one frame doesn't dominate it.

It's that simple, or it would be if DE was capable of doing it. It's way easier to fix a thing in a game than to fix the game itself.

How would you do it? What can you suggest that might make all warframes viable for ESO/SO ?

[Xaero]

3 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

All DE has to do is fix ESO so that one frame doesn't dominate it.

How?

[Fellas92]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

The flaws aren't with the frames. Some could use tweaks sure but mostly the content itself is to blame.

I do get your point, but imagine how long it takes for them to rework certain single items, now imagine them reworking the core game. Good luck with that lol.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Fellas92