DE's sustainable content problem shows up again (AKA: All Lich weapons farmed. Now what?)

[Darklord_Tou]

Just now, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

You can't increase difficulty for a game that's meant to play over and over again, even dark souls is easy when you played for 100 times.

But dark souls is not a live service game and was not suppose to be played forever.

[grillv20]

DE literally hands people endgame content and the just roll their eyes at it. I love how people's excuse for content not being "sustainable" is that they have no interest in doing it after they get their weapons. What a joke. I'm still doing liches even after having all my weapons because I'm trading the weapons to people that don't actually want to do it.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I still play Devil May 5, DmC, and Bayonetta 2 because I can constantly improve my score by improving my skill. I also regularly play Doom (2016).

What do those games have in common? Intrinsic reward value by giving you the satisfaction of beating difficult tasks. This is something Mogamu has touched on a lot as he moved away from WF, and something Steve himself acknowledged on stream as what will be the focus of Nightwave season 3.

But that's your personal taste. I played DMC twice and DM5 4 times I think. I didn't cared about my score, I just cared about how smooth I can beat the game. 

So it's still a "I got all the things I cared about", you just haven't satisfied yet. 

 

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

Just now, Darklord_Tou said:

But dark souls is not a live service game and was not suppose to be played forever.

Agreed it's not that DE can't create difficulty. But from what they've provided as "difficult" they don't know how to yet and due to the current state of very little balance it would require major overhauls to achieve if

[Jarriaga]

12 minutes ago, DarthIronclad said:

The only way to create more intrinsic rewards is to increase the difficulty of the game,but is hard to do that with the power players have access to.

DE can lower the power,but then people will riot and it will cause a lot of people to quit the game,as time invested to weapons/frames basically goes to waste...and is hard to compensate all the mess that will come if that is done,as even giving everyone 1000 forma as compensation is prob not enough. 

Is there a way around this situation? As doing nothing or doing that will both result in a lot of people leaving.

I think adding new content and missions like the Grendel ones in which you know upfront what you're getting into rather than nerfing every single mission type is a step in the right direction.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 minute ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

But that's your personal taste. I played DMC twice and DM5 4 times I think. I didn't cared about my score, I just cared about how smooth I can beat the game. 

So it's still a "I got all the things I cared about", you just haven't satisfied yet. 

 

But the loop was interesting as well as the mechanics in the game. Warframe has the mechanics but the core loop is lacking 

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

Just now, Darklord_Tou said:

But dark souls is not a live service game and was not suppose to be played forever.

This sentence is 100% truth and 100% irrelevant to my point.

[Jarriaga]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

But that's your personal taste.

Isn't absolutely everything personal taste? It's the same argument as to why some people see comedy movies as "fun" and some people see horror films as "fun". It is not something that can be objectively quantified and measured.

It's not about the score. It's about what it represented: A direct measurement of my own growth and improvement in the game.

[Jarriaga]

16 minutes ago, 844448 said:

Put your voice here so we can make DE notice it

 

Done!

[DarthIronclad]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I think adding new content and missions like the Grendel ones in which you know upfront what you're getting into rather than nerfing every single mission type is a step in the right direction.

That works too,i know a lot of people don't like it,but it does not need nerfs to anything that can cause people to riot.

Maybe something similar can be done to lich missions,but not 100% no mods due to armor and higher enemy levels.

But maybe restrict certain mods types like lets say multishot mods are not allowed on lich nodes of this planet for example.

Adding sortie or disruption conduit conditions into the missions can also add to the challenge.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

Just now, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

But the loop was interesting as well as the mechanics in the game. Warframe has the mechanics but the core loop is lacking 

I agree. For a live service grind game, Warframe game loop gets old a lil too quick. I think if DE can diversify the game mods a little more, the loop will be much interesting.

[Teridax68]

I agree with the OP, and I think the elemental modifiers are a bit of a red herring: at the end of the day, the Lich system isn't the persistent, engaging enemy we were promised, it's just another grinding treadmill that we're pushed to not give a fig about, because at the end of the day we end up cycling through disposable enemies just to get to loot. Perhaps DE may have extended the system's life span by adding that random bonus damage, at the cost of cheapening virtually every Kuva weapon we receive, but in the end this is a system that offers only a limited amount of playtime, and gives no reason to be played any further once the rewards are obtained. More than any of the other myriad problems with Kuva Liches, this I think is what makes the system a failure, as its core design cannot possibly offer the replay value and player engagement we were led to believe from the Empyrean demo.

To some extent, I think attaching loot to the Kuva Lich system, as has happened with practically any new feature before, was a mistake. I'd rather separate Kuva weapons and even ephemeras from the Lich system entirely (and, while we're at it, remove the bonus elemental damage that serves no purpose other than to make us grind repeatedly for the same weapon), while reworking Liches themselves so that they deliver what we wanted out of a nemesis system in Warframe. Instead of disposing of Liches endlessly, each player should have a single Lich that never dies, and can only be defeated temporarily. Instead of mildly annoying the player with largely ineffectual taxes, the Lich should offer genuinely new content as they invade the System, and potentially invade our missions if we let them grow idly. Instead of killing us and ranking up when we make an attempt on their life, Liches should grow in power only if we let them, and should otherwise "die" when we do attack them. Once this is implemented, we wouldn't even need the multiple layers of pointless grinding around Requiems, or even Requiems at all (or the Parazon, for that matter) in order to make us spend time on Liches.

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

18 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Intrinsic reward value by giving you the satisfaction of beating difficult tasks. 

So play Warframe without mods. Beat all the bosses.

You've already said you got an intrinsic award from doing that once. What's stopping you doing it again?

Kinda rhetorical cos the answer's the extrinsic reward.

[Jarriaga]

Just now, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

So play Warframe without mods. Beat all the bosses.

You've already said you got an intrinsic award from doing that once. What's stopping you doing it again?

Kinda rhetorical cos the answer's the extrinsic reward.

I have tried it. And it does work for a while until you realize that at that point you might as well play with one hand tied to your back.

That's why I loved the Grendel missions, because of the tension of giving it my all without a handicap.

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

14 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Isn't absolutely everything personal taste? It's the same argument as to why some people see comedy movies as "fun" and some people see horror films as "fun". It is not something that can be objectively quantified and measured.

It's not about the score. It's about what it represented: A direct measurement of my own growth and improvement in the game.

I know what you saying, and to be clear I do believe your idea is gonna make you play longer.

My point is no matter what, we gonna always end up in threads like "nothing for me to do", by someone if it's not by you or me.

Your solution is more of a solve for "How to make rewards that do not make players think they are wasting their time", than a solve for "sustainable contents" problems.

[IntheCoconut]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

So play Warframe without mods. Beat all the bosses.

You've already said you got an intrinsic award from doing that once. What's stopping you doing it again?

Kinda rhetorical cos the answer's the extrinsic reward.

I could try that although I suspect I already know the answer; it isn't fun because it isn't an issue of skill?

Without mods, I'll just have bullet sponges who hit me like a truck. The only content that could be played enjoyably without mods are Eidolons and Orb fights because you can actually dodge attacks. With normal enemies, there aren't telegraphed moves for you to avoid or dodge, its simply a matter of having enough shields/armor/health to absorb the damage. Sure, you can dodge roll and only take 35% of the damage but eventually you need mods because even 35% of one bullet will be enough to one-shot an un-modded warframe and because there is no way of avoiding that bullet, you will die.

Its like telling a lvl 1 newbie in WoW to go fight the hardest dungeon. It wont happen because its not about skill, its about being probably geared. Most of the content in Warframe is just a gear-check. Do you have enough shield/health/armor to take a hit and survive? Do you have enough damage on your gun to kill everything? It isn't Dark Souls, where you can go through the entire game naked and win because you dodged every hit.

So sadly, removing mods isn't really a solution.

Edited December 4, 2019 by IntheCoconut

[DebrisFlow]

2 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

That problem being that players tend to chew through content faster than developers can make it, and often treat the core game play as a nuisance of an obstacle towards some reward.  Once they get the rewards, they ironically aren't interested in the core game play, which the reward is meant for.

True, but

2 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

There is literally no fixing this problem if people aren't going to even try and find their own fun.  It's a player psychology issue, not a developer content one.

allow me to disagree with your conclusion. The actual core gameplay of Warframe is objectively bland and shallow in almost every mission type: move from A to B, while doing so you either kill enemies or hack a console. The biggest challenge comes from not having the right equipment, the (little) remaining is about knowing how to dodge damage. That's why, when you get the reward the core gameplay is meant for, the gameplay itself becomes trivialized and shortly after "a nuisance".

There is simply not enough gameplay space to "find their own fun", when the only space you can have is by changing equipment to do the same thing > jump, fire. Even if your greatest enjoyment is just feeling like a merciless slayer god, this cannot last long when everything is an ant under your boot, psychology or not. This is also a developer content issue that can be fixed by (examples): 

- adding mission objectives that valorize strategic planning (team-splitting, spatial positioning) not only for saving time but for mission success itself;

- adding unexpected challenges/objectives that ask you to adapt in mission, possibly valorizing under-exploited abilities like stealth and surgical precision;

- taking away warframe/operator/weapon/ perks and giving the ability to redeem them in mission;

All of this without damaging the core horde-looter-shooter soul of the game.

Edited December 4, 2019 by DebrisFlow

[The_Mustachio]

I, as well, have all the weapons, and copies to share with people that need them. Three of the emphemeras and no desire to continue to farm.  
Guess we’ll wait for rail jack. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Morthal]

This whole Lich update is garbage tier distraction content.
I've got 5 or so Liches killed and one just sitting there with an Ephemera and the Kuva Hammer. Not worth the time spent to grind murmurs and sure as hell isn't worth the time and forma to gain mastery exp. 
I live in a city with slot machines and video poker at every gas station, restaurant and grocery store, don't need them showing up in my PC games too. Looking at DE's track record, OP is being too optimistic about improvements for this trash tier update. Just look at all the dead gameplay modes, bug filled tilesets and bounties that haven't been fixed or improved in years. 
Personally, I'm ignoring Lich 'content' without hopes that it will improve, just as DE ignores our feedback.

[Vit0Corleone]

 - double post -

Edited December 4, 2019 by Vit0Corleone

[Vit0Corleone]

1 hour ago, IntheCoconut said:

Would you say the Lich system and the gameplay loop is fun? I'm not injecting my own opinion, I'm genuinely curious.

It's fun to some extent, but gets boring and frustrating quickly because DE did 2 major things that have quite a negative impact, IMHO:

1) Too much RNG; You have no control over what you are doing. It doesn't really feel rewarding when your "accomplishment" is purely based on luck and grinding. There's no progression, there's no challenge ( besides the grinding )

2) When you get to a point, knowing which weapon you are going to get in advance can be extremely frustrating when you learn that you are going to be forced to grind for 1-3 hours for nothing ( if the lich doesn't have anything you want ).

Edited December 4, 2019 by Vit0Corleone

[Kingsmount]

Liches are so unrewarding that they're hardly even worth doing even when you don't have the weapons yet.

Such a painful slog,  especially when you get a low elemental roll on a weapon you don't care about or already have.

And then you can't even use the weapon anyway because of how limited slots are if you aren't vomiting plat.

 

How easy it could be to make liches fun and rewarding on their own right.  

It literally uses psychology against their own system,  making it so nobody wants to engage with it and so many people refuse to stab their lich.  You bash your head into a wall and commit suicide a dozen times,  taking at least all afteroon of grinding,  and all for nothing. The only reward is an "Okay" weapon you probably already have after a certain point,  probably has a garbage low elemental bonus,  and you even more likely don't even have the slot for it anyway.

 

• The Lich system could so easily be extremely satisfying, made both enjoyable and rewarding,  if Liches multiplied all stolen resources by the lich's level.  All of which drops as a physical drop in a loot shower similar to killing a Tusk Thumper.   This can also mean that all allies can also loot the drops, since they're universal loot drops right there in the level making the system even more enjoyable and cooperative.
• And then stop forcing us to commit suicide.   Remove the awful forced kill. Make the parazon fail as normal, but the lich does not kill you- which a forced death like that is never okay in any game, even in story focused narratives they still feel awful let alone a power fantasy game like this.  Instead you can show off your fanciful lich kill moves by letting lich's grab downed players to finish them off forcing a respawn instead of reviving with AI priority towards rushing downed players.   This would also make them more of a threat and they'd feel more badass, and like they earned the kill instead of clunky game design forcing a death on you.  The lich dies after it is downed 3 times as it works now, the only difference is the stab isn't suicide. And you may or may not be able to test the other two runes.  Then when a lich dies without being properly stabbed,  have a kuva cloud fly out from their body.
• Optional bonus:  Reduce the murmur grind to something more like 20/20/40,  but this depends on how rewarding you make the system to the point of not being required if the liches were actually worth messing with with the above rewards suggestion.  As-is,  it's so unrewarding I'd say 10/10/30.

 

These two changes would infinitely improve liches and make it a source of enjoyment and fun instead of (Unrewarding) tedium and frustration.  It'd also give a purpose to the random (And another negative player punishment) gimmick of stealing our resources.    It'd become something we're actually glad to see instead,  and are happy to engage with.

 

 

It'd also be nice if liches actually looked like liches and not generic Grineer that can be hard to distinguish from other grineer if it weren't for the red marker.    Taller,  more of an angular silhouette,  and they could float off the ground.  Boom,  unique appearance and a more intimidating presence.   Hell, just take the current liches and make them float with some kuva cloud effects around their legs.   More face options would help as well,  including faces that look more ghoul like,  as well as some that are more skull-like. 

 

 

Then liches would actually be fun and rewarding content to do regardless of the kuva weapons.  

 

Another change is making Thralls able to spawn in any mission if you have a certain item in your gear wheel, or use said certain item in a mission.   Call it a Lich assault beacon or something.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Kingsmount

[(XBOX)CaligulaTwily]

Ooh, I got a 26% toxin Quartakk, and I'm looking for a fire one. Lich finally spawns with one, 25% fire. I can't even turn my toxin Quartakk into fire because the bonus is 1% lower. That sure pissed me off. I'd downgrade my Quartakk that 1% if I could turn it to fire. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 hour ago, DoomFruit said:

The difference there is that this game will have an actual structured campaign with an actual structured story and actual game balance.

I disagree.

• People are complaining about content droughts in a free game that has more content than paid titles.
• People who have not completed the content in WF complain about content droughts when they just don't feel like doing what WF has to offer.  How many people who have completed all the lich weapon farming, even if NOT maxing stats, have also farmed all the new arcanes? The new Auras? The Ephemeras?

People whine because there isn't anything they want to do and call it a drought.  Whiners and crybabies will whine and cry - thats just what they do.

 

 

[Morthal]

1 minute ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

People are complaining about content droughts in a free game that has more content than paid titles.

Time is money.
F2P titles are never "free" and only a sucker would believe this. 

"People whine because there isn't anything they want to do and call it a drought.  Whiners and crybabies will whine and cry - thats just what they do."

People like you, in this forum and in the game are the only one's complaining and whining. You add literally no improvements to the game, no incentive for DE to get better, instead you'd rather cry about others who DO want the game to improve. 
MY TIME is valuable and I choose to spend it in Warframe with friends and clanmates who all feel similarly about Update 26, not everyone agrees to the same extent but our opinions and feedback are far more valuable than you and all the other whiny babies who just shout "FREE GAME".