DE's sustainable content problem shows up again (AKA: All Lich weapons farmed. Now what?)

[Rakosta_Kai]

59 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

How can they improve this so the system becomes more sustainable?

- Make weaker repeated weapons still give a +1 bonus.

- Add more options after beating your Lich such as 10K Kuva for example, but you can't convert or vanquish the Lich if you choose this reward.

That's just spitballing ideas.

I don't think this was designed to be necessarily sustainable.

Casual players could certainly make it sustainable by choosing not to focus on quick completion though.

For me, strong exploration mechanics in Empyrean will create sustainable content.

Nemesis content with no real story attached, and no interim reward points, is just a one room boss featuring the mother of long hallways filled with trash mobs imo.

[Jarriaga]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)drpunk-yo said:

Well I'm sure your opinion will hold great weight when DE look at the statistics.

/s

My opinion on its own carries little weight. If more people share it however, DE may or may not consider it. So far, the number of complaints with regards to the multiple layers of stockpiled RNG in the Lich system don't seem to have gone unnoticed by them. More so considering that even heir partners (Much higher direct influence and communication with them) also called them out on it.

20 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

so you powered through it for mastery? sounds like you made this your reward

I don't engage with gameplay systems that don't reward me in an intrinsic or extrinsic way. Warframe's lack of difficulty with regards to your level of progression kills intrinsic reward because it doesn't give you that feeling of being a badass that survived and completed a difficult task other than the Grendel missions, which I love.

This was flat-out acknowledged by Steve on stream, and will be their focus towards Nightwave season 3.

All that Warframe offers is extrinsic rewards. So what happens when there's no extrinsic reward incentive either?

20 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

since you dont want the non sub-par elemental weapons or ephemeras

I want them. But how do I get them in a way that respects my time? 1-3 hours per attempt and not a guaranteed +1 because you can't cast them off right away? That's a hard no from me. It's not a fair time investment vs. reward scale.

20 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

if you are so selective in choosing what you consider a challenge, how do you expect DE to fit in your tastes?

Stockpiled layers of RNG =/= Challenge.

You can get the best out of the best in attempt 1, or never. It's completely out of your control and it's not influenced by your skill level. Even Mogamu called them out on this.

"Challenge" means the Grendel missions for me, which I greatly enjoyed and want more missions like that. I had to struggle and give it my best in order to get a reward. It respected both my time investment and game proficiency by throwing at me a relatively difficult task I could not cheese through, and I was nicely rewarded for it. It was both an intrinsic reward (My satisfaction with beating the challenge) and an extrinsic reward (Guaranteed Grendel parts).

Give me more of that. Give me a no mods allowed fight against a Lich for a guaranteed +1 and I'll be a very happy camper.

20 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

you are in 1% or less of total playerbase that did this FYI, so I think what you could do now is take a deep breath and wait for players who do not zero-out all new content as it arrives, so they can catch up. 

I don't see how them having to catch up is relevant. Adding more reward options for those still farming would benefit them as well.

20 minutes ago, tzadquiel said:

not going to comment on the expectation for a grind game to be time efficient.

If only the Grendel missions didn't exist in order to give direct examples of efficient skill-based progression within WF....

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Genitive]

54 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont see the problem.

You've done the very basic part of the system i.e getting the 13 weapons. That was not the only intent of the system. You decided you are done, but the system obviously has more to give, you just arent interested in it. Just because your interest stops there it doesnt mean the system doesnt have sustainability, since there are obviously several more things to get like damage types, min-maxed damage stats for whatever type someone needs, more ephameras etc.

I agree, the OP decided they were done, however, I think there is a discussion to be had as to why people don't want to farm liches. The system could use improvements, such as reduced requiem mods grind, thrall missions could also have a different context rather than being standard missions with glowing enemies. But most importantly, DE should add some bonuses to the weapons above rank 30, otherwise there is no point in putting that much effort into polarizing them.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, Genitive said:

I agree, the OP decided they were done, however, I think there is a discussion to be had as to why people don't want to farm liches. The system could use improvements, such as reduced requiem mods grind, thrall missions could also have a different context rather than being standard missions with glowing enemies. But most importantly, DE should add some bonuses to the weapons above rank 30, otherwise there is no point in putting that much effort into polarizing them.

I will reply to you what I replied to him:

I am interested in it. As I noted, I would continue farming them if I could get a guaranteed +1 on repeated weapons, or a high amount of Kuva just as an example. Heck, just +1 for all 13 weapons in a single element means 390 Lich enemies to get them to +55 with what I've had. I'd be fine with that if each killed Lich meant something. Currently, you have multiple layers of RNG involved (Weapon type and bonus damage percentage) on top of a 1-3 hour time gate per attempt depending on your luck with the Requiem mods. The time investment vs. reward scale is way off as for the system to feel like it respects your time and effort. More often than not it it will push you away and give you a "I'm glad I'm done with it" feeling.

Sure you can chase min-maxing with every weapon in every element. How much of that can you control? Only the element. So 1-3 hours just for an attempt at what can be a waste of time with a weaker weapon? If that feels sustainable and fair to you, then more power to you. It doesn't feel that way for me.

[IntheCoconut]

I think everyone is looking at this situation through the wrong lens.

On one hand, you have people who have acquired the weapons and feel like there is little incentive to keep going. The main criticism of this seems to be "you shouldn't rush the content; it wasn't meant to be played over a short period of time."

I think that is true. I do think that players should acquire Lich content more passively, and that this type of content isn't best to focus on with tunnel vision. In other words, you focus on other aspects of the game, and Lich content is something that will just happen naturally over a long period of time. That said, people who point this out are also failing to acknowledge the underlying criticism of the Lich system: where is the sustainable content? What are players supposed to be doing if not focus on getting Lich rewards? If this content was meant to be a slow burn and acquired gradually over time, what content should players be focusing on instead?

The underlying issue is that there isn't sustainable end content, which is how this update was framed by DE. Players who focus on it and acquire everything will be criticized for "playing the game wrong" because they "rushed" through the content. But what else is there for them to do? This isn't a player problem, its a design problem. Having slow-burning content like the Lich system is fine, but only if there is sustainable content to go with it, otherwise players will prioritize the only new system in the game and be done with it in only a few weeks. This is a repeating problem that Warframe has, and still hasn't been able to figure out how to address it.

[BLI7Z]

I killed 1 Lich, got bored of the amount of time required for just 1 weapon that can be the same. Not appealing to know that I would likely have to kill like 30 Liches or more. 

Now... farming resources for Railjack, that was fun. Doing those little Railjack missions, also fun. Why can't they just go deeper into the classic gameplay of Warframe instead of adding this things? Or add this things but without making it so tedious. I have other games to play, you know? If you made the Lichs a little bit more appealing I might be playing more Warframe instead of those other games.... 

[Lost_Cartographer]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)ChaosTheNerd said:

People that tell you that are part of the overall problems with warframe as a game.

The problem with Warframe as a game is that players are in it for the rewards, bringing us that gem of a title, "DE's Sustainable Content Problem."

It's not a problem with DE.  It's not a problem necessarily of ANY developer.  If you're not logging in for the core game play (in this case, to shoot the Grineer on the way to getting the next kuva weapon,) then it's in DE's best interests to make getting better bonuses a PITA because obviously once you hit cap, you're still asking the same stupid question, "what is there to do now?" and supposedly highlighting the "sustainable content problem."  

That problem being that players tend to chew through content faster than developers can make it, and often treat the core game play as a nuisance of an obstacle towards some reward.  Once they get the rewards, they ironically aren't interested in the core game play, which the reward is meant for.

There is literally no fixing this problem if people aren't going to even try and find their own fun.  It's a player psychology issue, not a developer content one.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

My issue is not the grind as much as it is the grind for a reward I know I don't want in advance, and the time sink  is not challenging.

It takes on average two to three hours to dispose a litch between loading times, parazon farming, occasional bad luck with guesses etc.  And yet most of the time I know before I even invest that time, that I don't want it since I can see there is no ephemera and the weapon is trash.  Maybe it would feel less crappy if one didn't know the weapon, and didn't know if it had an ephemera.  I mean if you knew before you started ESO that you 100% were NOT going to get the ephemera or the lata part on Rotation C, and that's WHY you were doing ESO, would you even start the mission?

The second issue is that the bulk of the 2-3 hours is more brainless runs of missions I've done thousands of times.  And that last clue is often a mind numbing slog requiring up to 70 liches or whatever.  I would have preferred a harder fight that lasts 20 min per encounter with a thrall with a guaranteed clue drop over running countless star chart missions again and again.

As for those crying about content drought - even if you miraculously knocked out all 12 weapons in one hour each with no duplicates that 12 hours of game play.  People pay $80 for games with a campaign that lasts less than that.  Stop your crying already and go outside and get some fresh air instead.

 

 

 

[Jarriaga]

11 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

The problem with Warframe as a game is that players are in it for the rewards, bringing us that gem of a title, "DE's Sustainable Content Problem."

It's not a problem with DE.  It's not a problem necessarily of ANY developer.  If you're not logging in for the core game play (in this case, to shoot the Grineer on the way to getting the next kuva weapon,) then it's in DE's best interests to make getting better bonuses a PITA because obviously once you hit cap, you're still asking the same stupid question, "what is there to do now?" and supposedly highlighting the "sustainable content problem."  

That problem being that players tend to chew through content faster than developers can make it, and often treat the core game play as a nuisance of an obstacle towards some reward.  Once they get the rewards, they ironically aren't interested in the core game play, which the reward is meant for.

There is literally no fixing this problem if people aren't going to even try and find their own fun.  It's a player psychology issue, not a developer content one.

The fact players only log in for rewards is an actual problem that has been directly acknowledged by Steve himself. He said Nightwave season 3 will focus on intrinsic rewards rather than extrinsic rewards precisely because they understand that this is a problem for sustainability. Even their partners have pointed out this.

And FYI, I am one of those players who loved the Grendel missions for the challenge that they brought, which gives you an intrinsic reward (High satisfaction) when completing them. Give me more of that.

The gameplay loop in WF is very enjoyable until you start outscaling enemies far beyond what they were designed for, which kills intrinsic enjoyment and moves everything towards mindless killing or extrinsic reward chasing. That is a problem with game design rather than game time habits because 30 total hours are 30 hours regardless of you investing them in one week or one month. Otherwise, what am I supposed to be doing? Just drop the game because I have nothing to aim for? No challenge to beat? No difficulty toggle? You don't get to lecture me about chewing through the content when I have nothing left to do in the game, and I want to play the game.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jarriaga

[DarthIronclad]

Not to mention it is hard or downright impossible to create good rewards in the game's current state due to power creep.

We can nerf stuff down,but then people will riot. So we are kinda in a dead zone now.

One way is to just choose not to care about power crep issue and just create more powerful stuff through lets say,being able to upgrade kuva weapons by having dupes,but this is prob not a good idea.

 

 

Anyways the best way for sustainable content is the hardest way,it is to actively update the game,maybe add a couple of weapons or so that we can get from liches. 

[DoomFruit]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

As for those crying about content drought - even if you miraculously knocked out all 12 weapons in one hour each with no duplicates that 12 hours of game play.  People pay $80 for games with a campaign that lasts less than that.  Stop your crying already and go outside and get some fresh air instead.

The difference there is that this game will have an actual structured campaign with an actual structured story and actual game balance.

[tzadquiel]

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Edited December 4, 2019 by tzadquiel

[tzadquiel]

actually i pooped replying and cant be bothered anymore. 

tl;dr

@op

1. sounds like the purely subjective anyway 'intrinsic' value of your gameplay was identified as an issue, and is focus for the future, so I still struggle to understand why you have grabbed onto it in the first place?

2. sounds like you decide which weapons you are bothered to do, and which you are not. not everyone thinks like you, FYI. 

3. rewards are an everchanging, and are a constant work in progress. look at how available kuva is these days. you can do 10k in 15 minutes without booster, if you're broke - and for a lot of playerbase this is the type of reward they wanted and waited for. it is a free game, if specific (and probably subjective as hell again) rewards are what you are after, other missions for you exist. you demand sh!t that you like, where you want it. take a seat. 

people enjoy playing and exploring the lich content to this day everywhere I look except forum, and whereas you have the absolute right to eat through everything as it comes, dont get surprised at the exhaustion of the material. if you are maxed out, (your Grendel missions also will eventually end), take a break and do something else. then you can get some distance, can come back and can evaulate what has and what has not been improved. 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by tzadquiel

[o0Despair0o]

My current lich (my 5th?) decided to conquer all of Lua.

And since;

- I can't be bothered to go anywhere near Lua because that place sucks

- I already got the Ayanga, one of the 2 weapons I'm actually interested in

- The Karak, the 2nd weapon I want, basically having a negative 20% chance to show up on a Lich

- The process of grindung murmur and the fact that requiem mods are limited use are frickin BS

- The current Lich got yet another weapon I don't give a damn about

... I decided to give up.

I can't be bothered to deal with this crap.

Just let me launch my Railjack so that I can blow up Lua and be done with it.

[trst]

And as with every time "sustainable content" gets brought up it needs to be stated yet again that such content can't exist  as an update. It can only exist as something that you, the player, enjoy enough to continue to engage with because you want to.

Even to extend the grind by making low roll elements upgrade existing weapons or to give Liches additional rewards you hit the exact same issue you've just hit: you can finish it. It does not matter how much time, grind, or what rewards are associated with something as soon as players have gotten their rewards they will be done with it unless they themselves enjoyed the content just for the gameplay itself.

Yes other rewards or a longer grind could incentivize that but you still have to ask yourself what would you be thinking after getting every weapon to a max roll? Or what if you've amassed enough Kuva where all the Rivens you use no longer need it and you've earned enough plat from trading that you don't even need more plat? Or if you capped out on/exhausted the usefulness of any other rewards?

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

I dont see the problem.

You've done the very basic part of the system i.e getting the 13 weapons. That was not the only intent of the system. You decided you are done, but the system obviously has more to give, you just arent interested in it. Just because your interest stops there it doesnt mean the system doesnt have sustainability, since there are obviously several more things to get like damage types, min-maxed damage stats for whatever type someone needs, more ephameras etc.

Thats your personal view as well as op admitted that his personal opinion on hue system.  Not everyone likes to min max etc, so saying that makes no sense. Also from reading the replies other forums and other sources where fellow tenno express their opinions on the update many people feel similar. Down to a core loop you get the weapons and emphera and what else?

[Aazhyd]

Player: content draught!!

DE: Here's some new content.

Player rushes through it in record time.

Player: content draught!!!

[Jarriaga]

11 minutes ago, Aazhyd said:

Player: content draught!!

DE: Here's some new content.

Player rushes through it in record time.

Player: content draught!!!

What do you propose I should be doing then? Or is one Lich everyone 2-3 days such an extreme amount? Was I supposed to only do no more than one Lich per month or what?

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jarriaga

[IntheCoconut]

46 minutes ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

The problem with Warframe as a game is that players are in it for the rewards, bringing us that gem of a title, "DE's Sustainable Content Problem."

It's not a problem with DE.  It's not a problem necessarily of ANY developer.  If you're not logging in for the core game play (in this case, to shoot the Grineer on the way to getting the next kuva weapon,) then it's in DE's best interests to make getting better bonuses a PITA because obviously once you hit cap, you're still asking the same stupid question, "what is there to do now?" and supposedly highlighting the "sustainable content problem."  

That problem being that players tend to chew through content faster than developers can make it, and often treat the core game play as a nuisance of an obstacle towards some reward.  Once they get the rewards, they ironically aren't interested in the core game play, which the reward is meant for.

There is literally no fixing this problem if people aren't going to even try and find their own fun.  It's a player psychology issue, not a developer content one.

Would you say the Lich system and the gameplay loop is fun? I'm not injecting my own opinion, I'm genuinely curious. I have only experienced the new melee, and I'm having a blast with it, but otherwise I haven't even killed a larva yet, so I have 0 experience with the Lich system. I like getting cool rewards, but fun and engaging gameplay is way more important to me. So if the grind to get the rewards in the Lich system isn't fun, I wont bother with it at all. For me personally to repeat content, the gameplay must offer something fun for me. Fun, for me anyway, is usually in the form of a challenge and self-improvement. Either the content is so difficult that making little mistakes is detrimental to my success, or the content is easier and the challenge comes from trying to be as fast as possible. So for Eidolons or Orb fights, while not really difficult, there is still some incentive to improve my time and try to be as efficient as I possibly can be. Sadly, most of that is accomplished with mods, forma, and potatoes, all of which eliminate the need for player-skill, but even after all that, I can still try to improve my aim and timing. I also enjoy making different builds. I'll often just tinker around in a survival mission, trying out different weapons and mods not because it's necessary to beat the game, but just because it's fun. 

This is all just my own personal opinion on what is fun. That said, I have read quite a lot on these forums about the Lich system and a lot of people don't seem to enjoy the gameplay loop, and a lot of people don't seem to think the rewards are that great. Those two things are kind of the two biggest incentives for most players to repeat content and if neither is doing a good job, then is that really on the player to "invent" their own fun?

Edited December 4, 2019 by IntheCoconut

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

What game makes ppl play forever? Specially a pve game. They all have a "I've got it all that I cared about" moment.

[DarthIronclad]

The only way to create more intrinsic rewards is to increase the difficulty of the game,but is hard to do that with the power players have access to.

DE can lower the power,but then people will riot and it will cause a lot of people to quit the game,as time invested to weapons/frames basically goes to waste...and is hard to compensate all the mess that will come if that is done,as even giving everyone 1000 forma as compensation is prob not enough. 

Is there a way around this situation? As doing nothing or doing that will both result in a lot of people leaving. 

 

 

[844448]

Put your voice here so we can make DE notice it

 

[Darklord_Tou]

Issue with warframe sustainable content is there is no endgame super boss that require you to get strong lich weapons or top rivens.On other mmo games you have to farm for the best rolled loot to kill those super boss deathless/fast as possible.There is no point farming lich weapons other then MR. you can already kill eidolons and orbs in sleep.

[Jarriaga]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)caoshen0625 said:

What game makes ppl play forever? Specially a pve game. They all have a "I've got it all that I cared about" moment.

I still play Devil May 5, DmC, and Bayonetta 2 because I can constantly improve my score by improving my skill and by playing in harder difficulties. I also regularly play Doom (2016) and don't even touch the PvP.

What do those games have in common? Intrinsic reward value by giving you the satisfaction of beating difficult tasks. This is something Mogamu has touched on a lot as he moved away from WF, and something Steve himself acknowledged on stream as what will be the focus of Nightwave season 3.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jarriaga

[(PSN)caoshen0625]

1 minute ago, DarthIronclad said:

The only way to create more intrinsic rewards is to increase the difficulty of the game,but is hard to do that with the power players have access to.

You can't increase difficulty for a game that's meant to play over and over again, even dark souls is easy when you played for 100 times.