New player railjack and Empyrean just seems like Archwing to me after this devstream

[GrimSinner]

4 hours ago, k05h said:

When railjack gets released (I dont mean that vanity thing in my dry dock), new players will join the the game to see what all the fuss is about. 

But for new players it will be worse than experiencing Eidolon fights. To fully enjoy the missions with railjack they need to master archwing and most nodes of the star chart. Otherwise they will all be degraded to fire extinguishing services other games have NPCs for.

To really experience what the current trailers show in terms of space fight, new players have to invest weeks or even months before they are able to do so. It is worse than just a carotte on a stick. It is saying "play for 100+ hours to experience this fancy content". I can see many new players being turned down for good once they realise that those trailers are only for the chosen few and not for them.

It is something that really worries me 😞 

World of Warcraft comes to mind...

Played forever and still never made it into some of the very high level content/raids.  Especially before they implemented the public raid finder option.

Warframe has made us all comfortable with the idea of getting new frames and weapons in a day to a week of gameplay, unlike other MMO games that take months and maybe even never to get some new items.  

Having said that, items that take forever to get or requires very high level endgame, in other games, are VERY OP as a reward for such elite achievements.  We cannot have these things in Warframe since OP items are easy to get and then super nerfed since DE wants total balance.  

So, you would think that if new players, and even vets, have to spend months completing railjack, there would be an "un-nerfable" super item as a reward.  

But knowing this game, you'll probably spend months completing railjack to get your shiny new railjack ephemera.  LOL

[Nesodos]

31 minutes ago, Fl_3 said:

So why is solo play even a thing? Why not make the whole game co-op only?

Why did the chat of last nights Dev stream become a stream of "F"'s when co-op only was announced? Why can I go and solo a Tridalon? Why can I solo Profit Taker? Why can my weapons red crit for hundreds of millions of damage when nothing that exists in the game needs anything close to that to kill it and has to be gated by invincibility phases to stretch the fights out?

If this is a co-op game at all, why do we have the ability to make ourselves so powerful that the difficulty of the game becomes joke?

Why doesn't this game give us anything that is so challenging as to require us to actually team up and play together?

Last night [DE]Sheldon dropped the bombshell that even though Railjack is co-op only he plays it solo.

So, even this amazing new yet to be released co-op only game mode can be played and won solo!

Go rewatch the dev stream and it's right there.

 

Why do people eat bananas without the peel? Why don't they just push the entire thing down their throat?

Just because you can do something solo doesn't mean its meant to. Why can you book a room with 2 beds in a hotel even though you are going to sleep there alone?
The simple answer is more options.

Btw do you think that borderlands is a solo game? Or destiny? world of warcraft?

We had something that required teamplay but it got taken down because it was hardly playable and people were complaining that it was too difficult for the average player.

And if you would have listened carefully during the stream then you would know that you can play it solo if you want to but at release its balanced around coop for the higher level content. Nowhere was said that its coop only.

Now please take your own advice and watch it yourself.

[KnossosTNC]

Not really. Archwing's main problem was that it was its own separate thing; entirely different set of "frames" and weapons to level and Forma for a handful of missions cut off from the space ninja stuff.

Railjack is Archwing and space ninja stuff integrated into one, and has been described as "a new way to play Warframe." If you've watched some videos about the game's earliest days, Railjack sounds like the game's original vision; like the game DE always wanted to make but couldn't until now. It's probably why Archwing exist; it was their first foray into realising that original vision. They're simply having another go at it.

Time will tell if it works out this time, but if it does, I expect Railjack to eventually replace the Star Chart, and even serve as the basis for any "Warframe 2" (which I think just became significantly more likely due to a very recent industry-wide shift, but this is not the thread for that).

[OniDax]

3 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Not really. Archwing's main problem was that it was its own separate thing; entirely different set of "frames" and weapons to level and Forma for a handful of missions cut off from the space ninja stuff.

Railjack is Archwing and space ninja stuff integrated into one, and has been described as "a new way to play Warframe." If you've watched some videos about the game's earliest days, Railjack sounds like the game's original vision; like the game DE always wanted to make but couldn't until now. It's probably why Archwing exist; it was their first foray into realising that original vision. They're simply having another go at it.

Time will tell if it works out this time, but if it does, I expect Railjack to eventually replace the Star Chart, and even serve as the basis for any "Warframe 2" (which I think just became significantly more likely due to a very recent industry-wide shift, but this is not the thread for that).

Eh. Archwing's main problem, imo, is that the flight model is bad. We should feel like Iron Man in the archwings. It should fly properly (as in, you fly forward and turn on a curve). Archwing, imo, isn't satisfying because of the way the Archwing handles. Funny enough, it's the only thing Anthem got (kinda) right (the stupid overheat mechanic ruined it, though).

Edited December 7, 2019 by TheGildedOni

[Diavoros]

4 hours ago, k05h said:

When railjack gets released (I dont mean that vanity thing in my dry dock), new players will join the the game to see what all the fuss is about. 

But for new players it will be worse than experiencing Eidolon fights. To fully enjoy the missions with railjack they need to master archwing and most nodes of the star chart. Otherwise they will all be degraded to fire extinguishing services other games have NPCs for.

To really experience what the current trailers show in terms of space fight, new players have to invest weeks or even months before they are able to do so. It is worse than just a carotte on a stick. It is saying "play for 100+ hours to experience this fancy content". I can see many new players being turned down for good once they realise that those trailers are only for the chosen few and not for them.

It is something that really worries me 😞 

No good and successful game has ALL THE CONTENT available for new players, that is a mistake DE has been making for too long, it has to take time to be able to do the latest hot stuff, not be available from the get go.

[KnossosTNC]

6 minutes ago, TheGildedOni said:

Eh. Archwing's main problem, imo, is that the flight model is bad. We should feel like Iron Man in the archwings. It should fly properly (as in, you fly forward and turn on a curve). Archwing, imo, isn't satisfying because of the way the Archwing handles. Funny enough, it's the only thing Anthem got (kinda) right (the stupid overheat mechanic ruined it, though).

Well, yeah, that too. But that might have been addressed sooner if the mode was played more often. That there was no incentive to play it was the reason it was left as this awkward red-headed stepchild portion of the game, ignored by both players and devs.

[Rakosta_Kai]

17 minutes ago, TheGildedOni said:

I'd be more excited for Empyrean if it wasn't just a lite version of a Raid where some players will be stuck repairing the ship for the duration of the mission while two others fight for the captain role. If Empyrean was more like AC Black Flag or AC Odyssey where you're building your own personal crew, outfitting your personal Railjack, and then doing contracts and bounties like a space bounty hunter, capturing HVTs and recovering cargo and transporting them back to your dojo or a space port, or taking on a fleet of enemy ships with the help of other player Railjacks, I think it'd be different from Archwing and could really be Warframe on a new scale. But this really does feel like a regular Archwing mission, just with a Galleon/Obelisk, as well as the cruisers replacing the Courier ship from the Pursuit mission.

Hopefully this is what it can become and I would dig that greatly.

10 minutes ago, KnossosTNC said:

Railjack is Archwing and space ninja stuff integrated into one, and has been described as "a new way to play Warframe." If you've watched some videos about the game's earliest days, Railjack sounds like the game's original vision; like the game DE always wanted to make but couldn't until now. It's probably why Archwing exist; it was their first foray into realising that original vision. They're simply having another go at it.

Time will tell if it works out this time, but if it does, I expect Railjack to eventually replace the Star Chart, and even serve as the basis for any "Warframe 2" (which I think just became significantly more likely due to a very recent industry-wide shift, but this is not the thread for that).

I would also dig this a great deal...

My biggest issue with sharkwing was how jarring the changes were as it felt kinda glued into to those missions as opposed to the way it could have been.

Hopefully Empyrean is a gateway to seeing the game in a whole new light.

 

[SamMitter]

To OP,

Although you do have a point, ultimately i believe it is moot. as can very well be seen from the progress tree alone, new players have to complete "main quests" to get to railjack level.  Secondly, while teaming up; it is always better to use recruit chat; as this new update will be much more role focused (thank DE for putting some actual multiplayer RPG stuff). Same can be said about few other aspects (ESO,eidolon, farming runs etc); albeit very loosely. Recruit chat ought to take care of the problem of newbies joining in random squad. Similarly in a clan; 3 experienced players can always take a newbie for some experience. In my prev clan, I actually learned to do eidolon this way. Finally; it is easy to see, that railjack is high level content; so why new players want to go there on first day, is out of my logical thinking. They may go once, take a look, and immidiately should understand they need to gather more experience to go there. It is nothing unlik to even single player open world games; go to a new area find difficult enemies, get killed, come back to rank up in lower difficulty areas. According to your logic then; EA sports should give an statutory warning in every fifa label, that pro e-sports; or even the skill moves shown in the trailer, cannot be done in first ever game.

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, KnossosTNC said:

Well, yeah, that too. But that might have been addressed sooner if the mode was played more often. That there was no incentive to play it was the reason it was left as this awkward red-headed stepchild portion of the game, ignored by both players and devs.

It won't, because the animation team really doesn't want to go back and revisit old animations, and because most players don't really care either because they just want to go as fast as possible so that they can get their rewards as fast as possible.

Edited December 7, 2019 by TheGildedOni

[Prexades]

The thing is that Warframe needs something to keep players engaged, but the dilemma is that more powerful mods create only balancing problems. Railjacks adresses this by makingy a new system of progression that binds also Archwing and regular gameplay together. In a way it is a lateral way of progression for players.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Well it's a good thing no ones holding a gun to your head to play it. Good luck, Negative Nancy.

[ryu-hayabusa1]

8 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Hopefully Empyrean is a gateway to seeing the game in a whole new light.

I think it will be. Not now, in the near future hopefully. 

[SyndriD]

In my opinion the problem of Warframe is to have one of the most beautiful rpg systems, combined with an "arcade" system, start mission-finish mission - final statistics - insert coin, I was hoping that with empyrean they would connect everything making it OP, even if objectively useless is essential for the immersion of the player in the warframe universe, and instead it seems the usual old story, so many games separated from each other, the game can be as beautiful as you like but it loses a lot of longevity if you can't immerse yourself in the universe of the game

[BiancaRoughfin]

1 hour ago, Fl_3 said:

I'm sorry, but your wrong, if it was only supposed to be played by "veteran" players only it would be gated in such a way that new players wouldn't be able to join

Again, just because its there, doesnt mean its ment for them. Let me use another game's example...

In World of Warcraft there is a zone named Redridge Mountains which is lvl 10~20, its the Second/Third map a starting player in the Alliance can go to, just north taking a passage of that same map is another named Burning Steppes which is lvl 50+ , a lvl 1 player can go there but hes not ment to be there, same can be said for Railjack and a player who just obtained his first Archwing in Warframe, its there but its not ment for a new player tho he can venture there with higher level ones.

[OniDax]

6 minutes ago, Prexades said:

The thing is that Warframe needs something to keep players engaged, but the dilemma is that more powerful mods create only balancing problems. Railjacks adresses this by makingy a new system of progression that binds also Archwing and regular gameplay together. In a way it is a lateral way of progression for players.

The problem is that DE and some players alike thing the only way to keep players engaged is to reward more powerful mods. The solution to keeping players engaged is to give them a gameplay experience that they enjoy and in which they can immerse themselves. Just designing a system around farming for rewards is how we got the current Kuva Lich system.

[Kaizal]

So from what I saw on the stream, the Railjack Reb had was quite underpowered, one of the things I noticed is that her machine-gun shots bullets that went in a straight line, while when she invaded a greneer ship, they had guns that chased after the target. My request/question is simple, will there be mechanisms, that make you tradeoff confort on a mission for how efficiently you are able to do it?.

Ideas: You could have weapons where you choose wheatear or not you want them to chase the target, but if you choose to not, the projectile does double dmg, same with shield, you could get a passive one that blocks 4000 fixed dmg, or one that blocked 8000k but it also lost health over time, so its only worth it to use it if you can tell when the enemy is going to do the most dmg.

Basically, can players choose to make the game harder for themselves for a greater reward or not?

[Rakosta_Kai]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)CrazyBeaTzu said:

Well it's a good thing no ones holding a gun to your head to play it. Good luck, Negative Nancy.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

3 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

Aw man I haven't seen her in forever lol. Thanks for that.

[Marvelous_A]

It will probably be a space version of PoE. 

A giant empty map you can "explore" around with some codex scanning to do, occasional bosses for Railjack, some resource farming, more resource farming that's useless outside of Railjack, things like these. And of course there will be POIs which are essentially Extermination, Mobile Defense, Defense, Interception expect they're in space.

When they finally introduce Kuva Liches in space you will have the chance of getting your backbone broken by Liches in space. Nothing more.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Marvelous_A

[MacKerris]

Oh come on Railjack is Archwing 2.0

 

[SneakyErvin]

I'm not really sure how you managed to miss that the first part of empyrean is just that, the first part in order for us to try it and give feedback before they finalize the big plan behind it, the big plan that seems to involve all those things you imagined would come now. Part of those things will be in the first release in the shape of POI's and such.

It is even there in the devstream recap post, just a short read away. We arent even getting all the "captain" specializations nor do we get crew in the first update. It is a massive new system, they need to test it first and see what needs to be tweaked before making a full blown system effecting release of it.

[Toppien]

it doesn't sound bad, i mean you get rewarded for using more skill but it also leaves room for people who don't want to work too much on their aim, also because we are talking about space combat, so everything moves everywhere so that could induce some nausea on some people

[SneakyErvin]

It might be possible, I dont know why it wouldnt.

I mean what you are asking for is pretty run of the mill options when it comes to sims or games with vehicle combat, especially in space. Star Trek Online has a massive amount of options, some are weaker and more passively  reliable while others are stronger and reward "skilled" gameplay. Same deal in games fromt he Mechwarrior frenchise, you can have this massive Atlas/Warhammer meatshield mech with long ranged tracking and non-tracking weapons, or be rewarded massively if you play the game well as a tiny fast Locust or Wasp that goes in for the kill due to manouverability and the perfect weapon setup for the job.

So I wouldnt be surprised if Railjacks will have similar options when it comes to shields and payload.

[Culaio]

3 hours ago, LocoWithGun said:

But this is exactly what I expected from Railjack.

Did you expect it to be closer to actual space sim like Elite? Because I've seen absolutely nothing from DE that would even slightly imply this to be the case.

No one expected it to be space sim like elite but it definitly  wasnt sold to us as archwing 2.0, what it was sold to us as was something in style of guns of icarus/sea of thieves/barotrauma/'we need to go deeper', those games are about micromanaging ship/airship/submarine, those are coop games where players fill different roles on the ship, sea of thieves is least complex of them while barotrauma is most complex all those games have action in them, but are more tactical then space combat games, those games have proper action pace, not too fast and not too slow for it to be boring, until now everything shown about empyrean pointed that its the style of gameplay we should expect from it, problem is that devs increased pace of action in this gamemode and thats a problem, this was supposed to be more tactical gamemode, that is all about micromanagment, it NEEDS proper pace for it to work as intended, and pace we were shown is too fast for proper micromanagment, especially since railjack isnt small, players need to have time to mvoe around ship between different systems, to repair it and all that, we need time to tell people what they need to do, we need time to make decisions, we need time to use different systems....

 

For this game mode not to fail, devs need to slow down all the action, so players have TIME to do what we need to do, what was shown on devstream is BADLY mixed tactical gameplay with fast paced action, it just wont work, if they decide to keep fast action pace then they will probably make railjack tankier....which will make all the different tactical system available to us kinda  pointless, it will become another braindead gameplay focused on being best geared(best shields, weapons and so on) so player can ignore all the elements of coop

Edited December 7, 2019 by Culaio

[Bountyboy312]

I hope its goes well man because I ready to get my railjack join the war with my fellow tenno