(PC) Empyrean: Intrinsics Feedback Megathread

[ElKayJae]

It is quite unfair that you nerfed the intrinsics abort farm after all the hardcore players already finished their 10s with command stocked up. The people who didnt rush and farmed before the abort farm nerf are punished while people who exploited the farm are far ahead of the game.

[lainverse]

1 hour ago, ElKayJae said:

It is quite unfair that you nerfed the intrinsics abort farm after all the hardcore players already finished their 10s with command stocked up. The people who didnt rush and farmed before the abort farm nerf are punished while people who exploited the farm are far ahead of the game.

I've used it a bit to get my 6688 (which I got by occasionally playing) to 8888 and honestly you don't need to go any further anyway and 8888 is quite easy to get just by playing RJ 2-3 times a day. Yep, I haven't played it much. Ranks 9 and 10 provide very mediocre bonuses, so whoever spent hours farming them is not "far ahead of the game". They just got their hands on a few questionable bonuses which doesn't worth to get or doesn't even work properly.

Even 8888 is not that important unless you really want all the bonuses for archwing. What you _really need_ and what determines outcome of the RJ missions when you play them with your own ship is Vidar Reactor with 70+ capacity, good guns and avionics. If you have that you can play with 3-5 levels in all intrinsics just fine (you have to reach rank 7 in one skill to access the Veil, though).

I do understand the desire to "max out" everything and I like to do things like this myself, but in case of avionics it isn't important. They provide only a little "progression" and last 2 ranks are pretty much useless.

Besides, abort farming intrinsics is boring as hell. It's one of the best ways in warframe to burn out (right after farming Vidar Reactor... 4% drop at mission end, lol) and not play Warframe for a long while. Just play the game and eventually you'll get that 4x10, seriously. It totally worthless, but whatever. Personally I don't plan to invest any intrinsics into remaining levels until I secure another 255 for 5th one, so I'll have 88888 or higher when it will be released.

Edited January 13, 2020 by lainverse

[MobyTheDuck]

The intrinsic gain is way too low and not balanced by role. People that actively destroy ships or pilot get FAR less than people that fix holes.

Capping the intrinsic gain to stop people from getting command 10 when it releases in Railjack 2.0 in 5 year is pretty stupid and just shows you guys planned stuff without knowing how long it would take.

The stealth farm 'fix' is a clear case of selective fixes, because you can still get affinity and focus from aborting missions. Instead of taking away the crutches, heal the legs first.

Most of the skills are bad. There is no point to get level 10 since they either dont work or make it worse for you to play.

[hrimgerth]

Please add to gunnery 9 default boost too not just drift only. It's annoying to utilize that perk consistently especially when you blink after drift maneuver and you don't want to.

And gunnery 10 is useless imo. Add ability to shoot unmanned side turrents from pilot position. Or allow to switch from one turret to another empty one on instant.

Pilot 8 should work on the ship too not just archwing only.

Pilot 9 is too low and works only on boosting, should be global for the ship and archwing and be like 20%.

Pilot 10 is just worse free version of particle ram and pretty much meh for the last tree perk.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

Keeping my intrinsic feedback in this thread:

 

Intrinsic Gains

The "Intrinsic gained report" at the first end-of-mission-screen not matching actual gains (and sometimes not even the 2nd end-of-mission summary screen, giving 3 separate Intrinsic numbers after each mission) has been reported. This is highly confusing/disappointing. Sometimes it even requires leaving the Dojo to see true intrinsic levels. Since others have mentioned this point: I always host, because my Railjack is upgraded to maximum clan research tech (if that matters to the bug). I know my friend has had to leave the dojo after each battle to actually receive his intrinsics (after the "end of mission" report screen that appears on his orbiter - it seems it doesn't count the mission as truly over until returning to the orbiter, as can also be seen as reflected in mission times not ending until being in the orbiter, not just the drydock in the dojo - you even noticed this time discrepancy on one of the dev streams/prime times... but I think there's more to it than the timer.)

 

In my duo, I pilot, he boards/engineers. I walk away from most missions with 1 or 2 intrinsics... he gets 10+. I killed 60+ fighters and sealed up breaches while he was boarding crew ships... something is horribly wrong with this picture. Piloting is not fun to me, but I'm stuck with it... it should be at least as rewarding as boarding these enemy stations.

 

Intrinsic gains need to actually be shared with the entire team, regardless of where they are (Steve said intrinsics were "infinite" share distance... I don't see evidence of that). That goes for drops as well, which is another known issue.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Intrinsic Perks

I think the Archwing intrinsics should be part of an Archwing intrinsic tree of its own. Maybe an "Away Team" intrinsic of some sort, shuffling around the Tactical "Recall Warp" and "Join Warp", as well as the Slingshot/warhead perks to this new tree.

Gunnery 10 should allow the pilot/gunner to control any unmanned guns. (in the case there is a pilot and a gunner, the pilot would take precedence. If the pilot leaves the cockpit to do engineering stuff or something, a gunner could control the pilot seat guns from a side gun position.) I'm going to actively avoid getting Gunnery10 until the current one is radically changed - it seems like an active hinderance, rather than a perk.

Gunnery could also have a perk that allows the Pilot to take over the Forward Artillery fire control (as they're the ones aiming anyway - perhaps "switching weapons" like between primary and secondary weapons in normal warframe situations) Sure, this might take away from the epic-ness that was shown in the demo, but right now, that cannon down there isn't very epic anyway. If someone could access the forge from the lower seat, to forge dome charges (and any other forge actions) as well as fire the cannon... it would be more of a pilot's assistant/bridge crew station, rather than simply Fire Control for a weapon that doesn't even instakill crew ships without assistance.

Engineering... should be more of a super-charger, rather than a supply maker, IMO. The whole "miracle worker" trope, pushing the ship past the normal limits in a crisis, would be the goal. They could:

• super-charge shield regeneration
• flight speed increase
• extended boost duration
• fix all breaches when sealing a single breach (or just AoE, room fixing, within sections sectioned off by doors, without spending extra revolite)
• boost turret damage
• "rotate shield frequencies" to make them immune to energy weapons briefly
• for a brief time: allow use of avionics that normally consume flux, for no flux cost...

that sort of stuff ... and this stuff would not be linked to "Flux Energy" consumption (as fully illustrated in the last perk suggestion).

Tactical could provide more situational awareness, like:

• more information in the HUD about ship supplies
• remote access to the forge (less of an engineering thing, with their focus re-trained on boosts, rather than crafting)
• chance to not consume resources when doing things that normally expend them (like firing Ordinance could not consume munitions randomly, or the Forward Artillery getting a free dome charge use.)
• They could have a way to help restore flux energy to the Railjack, in more of a regen sort of way, rather than crafting flux energy in the forge.
• "Move-find-item" (Final Fantasy Tactics reference)... they'd have a chance to randomly generate stockpile resources as the ship moves around. (has the potential to be abused, so it would take some "refining" of the idea, just brainstorming here, for now.)
• This could be a gunnery trait... but fits tactical as well: When Aiming-Down-Sights, see enemy weak points.
• Tactical could be able to activate the Railjack's onboard defense features to help ward off boarding parties...
• Tactical could have access to the remote hacking stuff showcased in the demo to take over enemy turrets, open locked doors, on enemy bases etc.

I would NOT tie Quality of Life improvements to Tactical (like a functional radar for enemies, greatly increased/added loot detection and vacuum... things that should be universal.)

I'm still thinking about what Piloting could use...

 

All I want from the Command tree is a way to have my crew repair the ship and "hold off" boarding parties until I can deal with them.

If they can control the ship to keep it following a target that I lock on to, so I can go run to the Archwing Slingshot, board the crew ship, destroy its reactor and recall back to return to piloting... even better.

I don't care about NPCs manning the turrets (though that's more than likely a feature they'll have).

 

That's it for now... 2am...

[nebfab]

I feel that the main issue with intrinsics is that too many essential functions are locked out initially.

 

Gunnery should be 360 degree by default -- the basic window view is only good for giving a new player motion sickness and a distorted idea about the usefulness of guns (not that they're all that useful right now in any case, but...) Could be replaced with some random buff.

Forging shouldn't be locked out totally behind intrinsics. You should be able to forge everything from the start, maybe at less than the current efficiency, with intrinsics opening up efficiency gains.

Piloting, again, I really think that replacing locks with buffs would be useful. What we have right now is a situation equivalent to parkour moves like bullet jump being locked out behind MRs. It's simply not how Warframe did things up until now, its freedom of movement is invariably praised by reviewers and enjoyed by players, so I don't see why piloting moves should be locked out behind a grindwall. Same applies to the archwing catapult and recall. Make them shorter range/longer wind-up without intrinsics, but, again there's no point in flat-out locking them.

Map teleports are a bit different as you need to know the railjack layout to use them efficiently, so a case could be made that doing it on foot for a while is good, but that's really the only one where I can see any rationale behind locking them out.

[TheMuslimGamerGB]

On 2020-01-13 at 3:34 PM, ElKayJae said:

It is quite unfair that you nerfed the intrinsics abort farm after all the hardcore players already finished their 10s with command stocked up. The people who didnt rush and farmed before the abort farm nerf are punished while people who exploited the farm are far ahead of the game.

Not quite, because their stock pile for command doesn't count anymore.

[rstripn]

Continuous progression intrinsics

I have a crazy idea that I think addresses many of the intrinsics complaints and also allows for future expansion. And to start it can have essentially the same effect as the current system, so game balance doesn't immediately change.

Right now points in a specialty unlock bonuses discretely: at certain values you gain abilities. Instead of this, have point allocation be continuous. As you pass certain point markers, you gain perks. So far not really different. Here's the twist: the effectiveness of (at least some) of those perks is based on how many points you have in that specialty. The numeric value of the bonus scales in a logarithmic fashion with points, so that very high point values give more bonus but not by a game-breaking amount.

e.g. A person with 32 points in gunnery has perks 1 & 2 with a 20% bonus applied. A person with 128 points has perks 1-4 with a 25% bonus applied. A person with 512 points has perks 1-8 with a 30% bonus applied. A person with 1024 points has only one additional perk, since in this hypothetical example there are only 9 available so far, but has a 35% bonus that will continue to grow (slowly), and if a 10th perk is added later they will have it as well.

Not all perks necessarily need to have numeric increases- some things (such as the ability to enter 360 degree gunner mode) are simply on or off.

No more need for duplicate entries. Far less problems with arranging perks so that the important ones come early but later on perks still feel worthwhile. Players no longer feel like once they play a certain amount they cannot continue to progress. There is hope of additional perks later on, to keep interest. If a perk is nerfed by 50%, the vast majority of what they've earned is still the same, and they still have a higher bonus than someone at a lower point value. To a degree each specialty can be balanced seperately; there's no need to have the exact same number of perks in all specialties, nor do the gaps between new perks need to be the same.

Edited January 16, 2020 by rstripn
multiple edits mostly for clarity

[ElKayJae]

7 hours ago, TheMuslimGamerGB said:

Not quite, because their stock pile for command doesn't count anymore.

It still does lol u didn't read the patch notes.

[SilentCompletionist]

Rank 6 of tactical intrinsics gives the perk 25% reduced flux consumption. To my knowledge only thing that consume flux are battle avionics. But they still consume 25 50 100 flux capacity when they are used with our without that perk. Am i missing something that uses flux energy or is this a bug? If it is a bug then i am surprised that this isn't fixed yet. Please fix this DE.

[TheMuslimGamerGB]

The  current state of Rail Jack gameplay is:

1-Play and complete the mission.

2-Refine your materials.

3-Return to dry dock.

Players are always returning to the dry dock:

- to rectify a bug

- because crew members (players) will shoot the windscreen, jump up & down in front of or place a glyph on the pilot, to block their view and pressure them into returning (please add a leave squad option for these types of player)

- because it's more efficient to restore your payload at the dry dock with the extra resources gained from refining

 

Instead why don't you reward the players for continuous play, no dry docking. To do this you could apply a multiplier for intrinsics for each node you move onto with out dry docking. The multipliers could be the same as the survival and defence multipliers, I think there should be multipliers for the resources as this and the system would encourage players to play Rail Jack how you intended players to play it. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

7 hours ago, TheMuslimGamerGB said:

The  current state of Rail Jack gameplay is:

1-Play and complete the mission.

2-Refine your materials.

3-Return to dry dock.

Players are always returning to the dry dock:

- to rectify a bug

- because crew members (players) will shoot the windscreen, jump up & down in front of or place a glyph on the pilot, to block their view and pressure them into returning (please add a leave squad option for these types of player)

- because it's more efficient to restore your payload at the dry dock with the extra resources gained from refining

 

Instead why don't you reward the players for continuous play, no dry docking. To do this you could apply a multiplier for intrinsics for each node you move onto with out dry docking. The multipliers could be the same as the survival and defence multipliers, I think there should be multipliers for the resources as this and the system would encourage players to play Rail Jack how you intended players to play it. 

This assumes they intend players to continue from node to node to node... when they've said they want Warframe gameplay to be in bite-sized amounts, not extended "endurance runs" like more-than-an-hour-long survivals.

With how long it takes to complete nodes without avionics like Void Hole, even on Saturn Proxima, combined with the extended "scavenging" portion of the mission taking close to 30min (10min at least just to collect fighter/crewship drops), and longer for strip mining of an asteroid chain... even solo, I find myself spending close to an hour on a single mission. With my friend joining the crew, he hates mining/collecting after a mission (and hasn't upgraded his own Railjack a single time), he still insists on returning to the dry dock after each mission to spend his intrinsics. I also want to return to dry dock after each mission, just to bank all the resources we just got. (too many potential bugs to lose everything if we don't.)

So, even with a bonus from mission to mission, I'd still want to return to dry dock between each one, and so would my friend.

Plus, for a random group, returning to Dry Dock is the only really good time to leave squad and get on with other activities, without potentially losing some stuff. They need a better solo extraction method than "abort mission"... and I haven't done PUGing, so I don't know how the system handles adding new members to squads already in missions to replace people who leave like that.

Overall, there needs to be a better "between missions" "mode" of some sort to let people handle their business (like inventory management, intrinsic spending, upgrading ships, all while on the host's railjack, without returning to dry dock, to make your request seem viable, at least from my point of view.

[moone]

The perks after 8 are very unrewarding. Why should u use Teleport (only reason would be 2 man door which is a bad desgin btw). Ramdamage? Most Fighters just die touching me an 2000 is nothing. The Aimsnap great most weaponsindicators are wrong so you cant use it! Remote repair is umhh jeah nice but thats all.

[Ham_Grenabe]

22 hours ago, TheMuslimGamerGB said:

Not quite, because their stock pile for command doesn't count anymore.

Yeah it does; they keep any excess intrinsic points they currently have - so if they have a thousand points extra, they max out Command right away. 

The change only punishes a certain set of players: those at 10/10/10/10 with only a few or no points to spare. I'm at 8/7/7/8, so I can gather intrinsics all day and twice on Sunday, and anyone with a bunch of extra sitting around already are fine. 

[Ham_Grenabe]

24 minutes ago, moone said:

The perks after 8 are very unrewarding. Why should u use Teleport (only reason would be 2 man door which is a bad desgin btw). Ramdamage? Most Fighters just die touching me an 2000 is nothing. The Aimsnap great most weaponsindicators are wrong so you cant use it! Remote repair is umhh jeah nice but thats all.

Yeah, I'm not going to bother past 8 until they require it for access to new areas. That lets me save points (or devote points) to the command tree. 

[hooperinius]

On 2020-01-13 at 9:25 AM, lainverse said:

What you _really need_ and what determines outcome of the RJ missions when you play them with your own ship is Vidar Reactor with 70+ capacity, good guns and avionics. If you have that you can play with 3-5 levels in all intrinsics just fine (you have to reach rank 7 in one skill to access the Veil, though).

What he said.

You don't need a ton of the intrinsics you just need a good reactor.

 

On 2020-01-14 at 1:43 AM, nebfab said:

I feel that the main issue with intrinsics is that too many essential functions are locked out initially.

 

Gunnery should be 360 degree by default -- the basic window view is only good for giving a new player motion sickness and a distorted idea about the usefulness of guns (not that they're all that useful right now in any case, but...) Could be replaced with some random buff.

Forging shouldn't be locked out totally behind intrinsics. You should be able to forge everything from the start, maybe at less than the current efficiency, with intrinsics opening up efficiency gains.

Piloting, again, I really think that replacing locks with buffs would be useful. What we have right now is a situation equivalent to parkour moves like bullet jump being locked out behind MRs. It's simply not how Warframe did things up until now, its freedom of movement is invariably praised by reviewers and enjoyed by players, so I don't see why piloting moves should be locked out behind a grindwall. Same applies to the archwing catapult and recall. Make them shorter range/longer wind-up without intrinsics, but, again there's no point in flat-out locking them.

Map teleports are a bit different as you need to know the railjack layout to use them efficiently, so a case could be made that doing it on foot for a while is good, but that's really the only one where I can see any rationale behind locking them out.

Ditto.

[TheMuslimGamerGB]

Avionics Screen

-It needs A, B, C Configs so you can try out different builds. 

-There needs to be a mod button, so that individual avionic mods can be upgraded off the grid.

-All that gold is confusing, each house (Zekti, Vidar & Lavan) should have their own colour.

-Stats for the super cannon should also be included on this page and they should show how its affected by the Forward artillery mod. 

[TheMuslimGamerGB]

21 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

This assumes they intend players to continue from node to node to node... when they've said they want Warframe gameplay to be in bite-sized amounts, not extended "endurance runs" like more-than-an-hour-long survivals.

Question! What's wrong with giving players choice, as some people will choose to play their favourite mode continuously regardless of what DE intended.

 

21 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

With how long it takes to complete nodes without avionics like Void Hole, even on Saturn Proxima, combined with the extended "scavenging" portion of the mission taking close to 30min (10min at least just to collect fighter/crewship drops), and longer for strip mining of an asteroid chain... even solo, I find myself spending close to an hour on a single mission. With my friend joining the crew, he hates mining/collecting after a mission (and hasn't upgraded his own Railjack a single time), he still insists on returning to the dry dock after each mission to spend his intrinsics. I also want to return to dry dock after each mission, just to bank all the resources we just got. (too many potential bugs to lose everything if we don't.)

When you become strong and acquire those avionics (which you will), your play time for missions will dramatically reduce. Your play style will also change for example, whilst the a-wings go and do the objective, I collect resources by ramming into things at high speed with my particle ram. This does that 10 mins and it allows me to finish when the objective is completed.

 

23 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

So, even with a bonus from mission to mission, I'd still want to return to dry dock between each one, and so would my friend.

I understand that you may want to, but others may not if their focus was just on intrinsic farming. Again, when your Railjack becomes stronger, you don't feel the need to be returning to the DD after every mission, instead you want to continue.

 

23 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Plus, for a random group, returning to Dry Dock is the only really good time to leave squad and get on with other activities, without potentially losing some stuff. They need a better solo extraction method than "abort mission"... and I haven't done PUGing, so I don't know how the system handles adding new members to squads already in missions to replace people who leave like that.

 This is why I suggested that there be a 'leave the squad' option that could be used by players on the completion of the mission.

 

23 hours ago, (PS4)AyinDygra said:

Overall, there needs to be a better "between missions" "mode" of some sort to let people handle their business (like inventory management, intrinsic spending, upgrading ships, all while on the host's railjack, without returning to dry dock, to make your request seem viable, at least from my point of view.

I agree.

[Proteo]

On 2020-01-13 at 4:34 PM, ElKayJae said:

It is quite unfair that you nerfed the intrinsics abort farm after all the hardcore players already finished their 10s with command stocked up. The people who didnt rush and farmed before the abort farm nerf are punished while people who exploited the farm are far ahead of the game.

U cant get up to 120 intrinsics in Flexa (solo mission Kavat + booster) by doing the entire mission. Time: 50 mins. More or less is the same as before (10 mins per 20 intrisics)

[(PSN)chris1pat8twins]

Glad I figured out an alternative to the abort migrate host crap people been doing. But it’s extremely boring. Only the most patient and desperate people can handle it. Even I can’t do this strategy for too long. 

[MithrilDragon]

On 2019-12-14 at 10:54 PM, LocoWithGun said:

This actually seems to be a trend with intrinsics.

IE Gunner lvl 10 automatically locks onto lead indicator when aiming so all you have to do is hold two buttons and that's it. Makes gunner a glorified automatic turret.

Imho making capstone abilities remove all of the player skill and gameplay is weird. They should enhance the playstyle not remove it.

No one says you HAVE to unlock level 10 skills.  If engaging "easy mode" would ruin the game for you, then don't do it.  You are responsible for how hard your game experience is.

 

The cost for unlocking skills is excessive.  I'm tired of exponential cost for linear growth.  I do agree with increasing the cost, but something more like 1, 3, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50.  This would remove much of the grindy, unreachable feel from the current system.

[Aldain]

Honestly I think a few of the rank 1-2 abilities are just too mandatory to need to be purchased, especially the ability to BOOST AND DODGE from piloting.

The number of Railjack owners I've run into with no ranks in Piloting at mid to late Earth who are basically flying an expensive coffin would shock you. It has gotten so bad that even I have rank 3 in piloting, and I pretty much never pilot outside of emergencies or neglectful hosts.

I would suggest allowing boosts and dodges at rank 0, but make the first two make the boosting and dodging more energy efficient and/or effective.

[Ham_Grenabe]

6 hours ago, Aldain said:

Honestly I think a few of the rank 1-2 abilities are just too mandatory to need to be purchased, especially the ability to BOOST AND DODGE from piloting.

The number of Railjack owners I've run into with no ranks in Piloting at mid to late Earth who are basically flying an expensive coffin would shock you. It has gotten so bad that even I have rank 3 in piloting, and I pretty much never pilot outside of emergencies or neglectful hosts.

I would suggest allowing boosts and dodges at rank 0, but make the first two make the boosting and dodging more energy efficient and/or effective.

I agree that several seem essential, as in, features that should just be part of the base Railjack itself, not something you have to level up: boost / dodge, phantom eye, firing the main gun, etc.

I assume DE's idea was that everyone would get rank 5 in everything, and then pick something to specialize in. But they should have actually made the Railjack the home of some of those capabilities, not the people in it. 

[LSG501]

Got to be honest coming away with no intrinsics after spending 20minutes in a mission, then failing due to essentially no resources or the hosts ship is too weak for the level, is damned annoying.   At the very least we should get to keep some of the intrinsics from that.  And as said above, it's incredibly unfair on those of us who actually play as we're supposed to and didn't 'abuse' the system in the first week or so.... it would also be nice if DE could maybe be consistent with these things on release rather than needing to fix the 'obvious' areas of abuse a month or so after release.... it punishes those that don't abuse the system.

In all honesty though the grind for intrinsics is mind numbingly slow, made even worse by the arbitrary requirement of rank 7 for the highest level maps, which most of us can do well below that.... hell I've had boosters the entire time I've been doing railjack and they're just so slow to level up without resorting to meta tactics. 

Whoever thought the doubling for each level (nobody enjoys exponential scaling) was a good idea needs to get their heads out of the sand and try doing the missions without boosters and/or any meta techniques such as the now blocked abort farming and/or stealth farming with ivara.   There just isn't enough railjack content (which is already lacklustre as it is) to keep us interested for the months this would take to level up without boosters....hell I'm already bored of Earth and Saturn, even more so when I can't improve my ship any more without going into veil, something I can't do because of the arbitrary rank 7 requirements...

[Althaline]

So, Gunnery 10 not only looks nigh-useless, but actively harmful to those of us who like to aim our guns. Rather than the pile of literal garbage that we currently have, why not change the Gunnery 10 perk to allow firing of the forward cannon from the pilot seat? Otherwise, I'm never going to pass 10/10/9/10, ever (in case you couldn't tell, I don't like auto-lock features in most games, especially not shooters).