[RANT] Kuva Lich: The decision to give you a timed choice with no explanation for the outcome is heinous

[Mr.Fluffins]

7 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

This is...something of a problem with warframe. Very few things are explained in game. They expect you to read the patch notes, read the wiki, because that is...admittedly what a lot of the player base does.

And in my opinion, this is a big problem that hurts the retention of the new players. To get far in the game, you either need to have in-game friends that can explain stuff to you at almost every single step, or consult a wiki on a regular basis. A lot of people are not "wiki" people, and get pissed off when the game doesn't explain anything and just expects them to go and read outside source material.

This situation with Vanquish/Convert is a good example of this problem. This is a critical timed choice, it must be explained in-game, you shouldn't assume that a new player will just go look for patchnotes for the old blood, and figure out what do these choices mean...

[nerfinator6]

9 hours ago, FLSH_BNG said:

The choice was never 'sprung' on the players; the patch notes for the update clearly explain the choice you have after defeating your Kuva Lich.

If you can't bother to look up or ask about a detail for yourself, it hardly does anybody any good to rant about it.

You shouldn't NEED to read patch notes to understand the damn game.

[DeMonkey]

19 minutes ago, nerfinator6 said:

You shouldn't NEED to read patch notes to understand the damn game.

The year is 2035, Warframe has developed into the biggest F2P game in the world and DE have offices in all major countries.

"Hey guys, what on earth is this choice I have to quickly make and why isn't it explained?"

"Haha, what a newb, you should have read the patch notes from 2019. Don't get mad because you can't read scrub."

I can picture it so clearly...

[JackHargreav]

Since this game doesn't explain anything and pretty much everyone knows that, this is actually more or less your fault.

You should have known by now that you get no explanation and should have prepared beforehand.

[DatDarkOne]

10 hours ago, Nymheria said:

Rant incoming. 

So. I finally managed to gather everything I needed to kill my first ever Kuva Lich. I farmed for all the murmur, I did countless missions to get the damn mods and figured out the order, and I was finally going to kill her. So imagine my surprise when I down her, and I have a choice sprung on me with a very short time limit. No explanation what so ever to what the different outcomes will be. So I, being the paragon player I am, panic and press convert instead of vanquish at the last second. 

Now i'm sitting here, after googling what happens next, with a very empty feeling. I feel so disappointed after doing all that, and nothing to show for it. I really wanted the weapon, so I immediately regretted converting her once I found out what it meant (after googling when the mission ended). 

So basically you found all the information on what items you needed, grinded through the whole long rng on rng process, but didn't think to also find out what happens.  

I really want to feel sorry for you OP.  I just can't.  Mostly because of how you went about the entire process.  

[LoneWolveYoutube]

I was pretty annoyed when I was punished for being nice and saving the guy.  

[PookieNumnums]

10 hours ago, Paradoxity said:

To be fair, here, I know I'm not the only one in a solo guild who's got region and trade chat shut off. Just saying, this isn't exactly outside of the realm of possibility. 

Lots do. But then thats no fault of anyone. You included. The chats arent entirely useless as we can see

.

[White_Matter]

Always read the patch notes brother. 

[SneakyErvin]

As with all online games, always read the patch notes. If you've been gone for a long time, always read the wiki or similar for things you've missed.

edit: Though better UI descriptions could be very useful in WF.

Edited December 30, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[(PSN)NewYorkGameflow]

I found out about litches the hard way as well. I spared my first one thinking I can get their weapon whenever. After learning that I couldnt, I gave the litch to a friend thinking he would get the weapon right away... and before he told me that the litch becomes active once traded, I traded for one thinking I would get their weapon right away.

I hope a future update gives me the option to just delete this litch, Im too burnt to bother going through the processs of getting rid of it.

I also hope that information regarding content can be better explained in game, in the future, especially content that requires a considerable amount of time and effort to complete once it has been engaged.

 

[Nezha_Rose]

13 hours ago, (XB1)Erudite Prime said:

 

You guys could always read the wiki instead of asking questions like this. 

Imagine if the wiki goes down, what would WF become?

[3rdpig]

Definition of heinous
: hatefully or shockingly evil : ABOMINABLE

 

I think "Mildly annoying" might be a better descriptor for something that made you mad in a video game.

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Always read the patch notes brother. 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

As with all online games, always read the patch notes. If you've been gone for a long time, always read the wiki or similar for things you've missed.

edit: Though better UI descriptions could be very useful in WF.

Ok...and please tell me: how long does this hold for?

What about a new player that starts in say 6 months and eventually gets to the lich system?
The game just flat out refuses to tell the player anything about it.  Doesn't tell them how to opt-in or opt-out of the lich system.  Doesn't tell them the choice they have to make.  Doesn't tell them the consequences of what a lich does.  Doesn't tell them any of its mechanics.

So tell me: how long does it take until "Read the patch notes" becomes invalid?
How many pages of patch-notes should a new player be expected to crawl through in order to understand the mechanics of something?

Same thing goes for the wiki, which lets be honest I doubt that most people check on the wiki for a lot of things.

For the most part online games don't just go "You know what?  We won't tell you anything at all!  Look it up yourself outside of the game!", and for good reason.

Why should Warframe get a pass for snubbing the player base and refusing to explain anything about simple mechanics?

[SneakyErvin]

31 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Ok...and please tell me: how long does this hold for?

What about a new player that starts in say 6 months and eventually gets to the lich system?
The game just flat out refuses to tell the player anything about it.  Doesn't tell them how to opt-in or opt-out of the lich system.  Doesn't tell them the choice they have to make.  Doesn't tell them the consequences of what a lich does.  Doesn't tell them any of its mechanics.

So tell me: how long does it take until "Read the patch notes" becomes invalid?
How many pages of patch-notes should a new player be expected to crawl through in order to understand the mechanics of something?

Same thing goes for the wiki, which lets be honest I doubt that most people check on the wiki for a lot of things.

For the most part online games don't just go "You know what?  We won't tell you anything at all!  Look it up yourself outside of the game!", and for good reason.

Why should Warframe get a pass for snubbing the player base and refusing to explain anything about simple mechanics?

As I said, if you've been away for a long time look up the wiki since it describes what has been added through patches, so it covers all changes without having to read the seperate change logs. The same goes for new players in games, especially in online games that keep on going. If I were to join WoW again this many years after I stopped playing I wouldnt find much info in the game. I'd get sent to some places through quests, but I wouldnt really get an explaination of the systems, just like I didnt get anyhting really explained back when it released either. I'd go to wowheah, allkahzam, mmochampion or whatever sites are used these days by the kids to get their WoW info. That would tell me how things work, what is needed and what is appropriate for X content. The same thing would go for GW2 and the same deal happened in BDO when I returned.

But as I also said, DE could surely implement a bit more stuff for their UI.

The people that dont check the wiki are mostly lazy, because even DE points us to the wiki when we check the WF site. It is a more expanded way to find everything that the patchnotes cant cover since it includes player knowledge aswell.

[IIDMOII]

Agreed. This is an issue that has always persisted in this game and is one of many reasons they struggle to win over new players.

I get the impression they think their live streams and social media presence are good enough. But that just results in a small subset of players being privy to information. You can't rely on external sources of information, it needs to be in the actual game. 

The game is in desperate need of more structure and more tutorials. Absolutely.

 

The ONLY reason I knew what to do is because I happened to be engaged and invested enough at the time old blood launched to read forums and watch videos. That pop-up tutorial in the lich screen doesn't cut it.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by IIDMOII

[Talinthis]

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The year is 2035, Warframe has developed into the biggest F2P game in the world and DE have offices in all major countries.

"Hey guys, what on earth is this choice I have to quickly make and why isn't it explained?"

"Haha, what a newb, you should have read the patch notes from 2019. Don't get mad because you can't read scrub."

I can picture it so clearly...

Also everyone that was banned can now play the game!

[White_Matter]

1 hour ago, Tsukinoki said:

Ok...and please tell me: how long does this hold for?

What about a new player that starts in say 6 months and eventually gets to the lich system?
The game just flat out refuses to tell the player anything about it.  Doesn't tell them how to opt-in or opt-out of the lich system.  Doesn't tell them the choice they have to make.  Doesn't tell them the consequences of what a lich does.  Doesn't tell them any of its mechanics.

So tell me: how long does it take until "Read the patch notes" becomes invalid?
How many pages of patch-notes should a new player be expected to crawl through in order to understand the mechanics of something?

Same thing goes for the wiki, which lets be honest I doubt that most people check on the wiki for a lot of things.

For the most part online games don't just go "You know what?  We won't tell you anything at all!  Look it up yourself outside of the game!", and for good reason.

Why should Warframe get a pass for snubbing the player base and refusing to explain anything about simple mechanics?

I mean, it is pretty easy to just type "Kuva Lich" in google search box.

I'm not saying things are optimal as they are, but what the op is talking about(or anything similar really) can be easily avoided by simply googling it. Which I've been doing for the past 7 years. Worked just fine for me.

Yes, DE could implement simple quests at the beginning of every new addition to the game(which would be the optimal approach), either ordis or an NPC could walk you through stuff step by step. But let's be honest, DE is lazy(has been for the last couple of years). But don't say this outloud because people will get triggered and give you very intelligent responses like "because WF is free to play, DE is the best, go play another game etc."

 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

19 hours ago, Hixlysss said:

This is...something of a problem with warframe. Very few things are explained in game. They expect you to read the patch notes, read the wiki, because that is...admittedly what a lot of the player base does.

In the patch notes it explains what vanquish and convert do. The wiki also explains this. It's become standard practice for players to do 1 of 2 things when they download a patch. 1: read the patch notes. 2: ask other players "What the hek is this "Old blood" update?" And proceed to be yelled at to "Read the patch notes."

This is how warframe has been for a long time. Is it good? It functions...could be better, we could use more in game explaination as to rewards for choices, but to be fair the lich was the first to do this. But honestly...you made a mistake and you've learned. One of the high rules of warframe is "The wiki is your friend" and that's no joke. If you're going to get by in warframe, the warframe wiki best be on your favorites tab for you to switch to when needed so you can research things like "What is a Kuva lich?" and...yeah.

If you want an even better example of this you can look at the barely functioning damage system for combat when doing railjack combat.  No where in the game are you told what status procs do, what damage types don't carry over, etc.  But they tell you some of this info in the update they posted.  I'm sure someone will point out that the information is "technically" in the game because they literally copy paste their patch notes for you to tab on in the launch screen.  But that's really not ideal.

19 hours ago, FLSH_BNG said:

The choice was never 'sprung' on the players; the patch notes for the update clearly explain the choice you have after defeating your Kuva Lich.

If you can't bother to look up or ask about a detail for yourself, it hardly does anybody any good to rant about it.

It's apologist behavior like this that let's DE get away with cutting corners and encourages poor quality control with their product.  Information and UI design are both things that have been sore points for DE for an insanely long time.  They only get better because we as players complain about it loud enough to force them to have better standards for their brain child that we all love and care for.  If you're perfectly fine with scouring over external sources to figure everything out more power to you.  But don't shame others for wanting the game to actually explain how it's core systems work.  Warframe isn't some niche indie title that has a small cult following.  It's one of the best known F2P games that appeals to a wide variety of players.  They simply can't continue to treat the game and it's fanbase the same as they did when Warframe was just starting out.  DE wants to support the new player experience and continue to bring in new players.  You're not going to do that by demanding someone go look at a wiki page to get a basic understanding of how something works.

Edited December 30, 2019 by (XB1)Knight Raime

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb White_Matter:

I mean, it is pretty easy to just type "Kuva Lich" in google search box.

I'm not saying things are optimal as they are, but what the op is talking about(or anything similar really) can be easily avoided by simply googling it. Which I've been doing for the past 7 years. Worked just fine for me.

Yes, DE could implement simple quests at the beginning of every new addition to the game(which would be the optimal approach), either ordis or an NPC could walk you through stuff step by step. But let's be honest, DE is lazy(has been for the last couple of years). But don't say this outloud because people will get triggered and give you very intelligent responses like "because WF is free to play, DE is the best, go play another game etc."

While there are two different approaches on this topic here, it seems like in the end everyone agrees that the UI in Warframe and the availability of information is pretty bad.

 

Ofc it is not hard to google something (in general, try googling the difference between Ordnance and Forward Artillery, even after googling it i wasnt sure),

but there is another thing no one mentioned yet...at which point a player can stop to google something before he plays it?

I mean: how do you know that something might happen anywhere in the game that needs you to know stuff beforehand?

 

• Can i simply play this mission on the Starchart or do i have to google "capture" first in order to be prepared?
• Can i use this forma on a weapon or are there hidden drawbacks? shall i google first?
• shall i build this weapon or might something funny happen when i build it? (counts for all the hundreds of weapons, better google it before you build it)

 

I could continue this list, but i think my point is clear.

The natural flow of the game gets interrupted a lot, and you can never know if you need certain informations until you are at that point.

[GrandLompus]

One of OP's points that gets lost in all the back and forth: the timing.  I can live with "Read the Wiki" comments (I consult the Wiki too), if not for the timing.  If the "Convert or Vanquish?" screen wasn't timed, the problem would be moot, since you could then go alt-tab over to the Wiki on the spot to see what each option means (something I also do regularly).

And why is that timer even there?  A timer for e.g. relic rewards is useful to not interrupt the flow for everyone else in endless missions (or the ability for one to hijack the progress), but here?  The Lich option is a personal thing at the end of a mission anyway, much like new riven aquisitions when your riven capacity is at zero ("buy slots or dissolve?")... right?

The flow of the Lich end screen is also new.  With the above riven option you can select a button with the mouse; with relic rewards you click the reward you want.  But here we select the option via press-and-hold move-left or move-right, which is something that also threw me off for a second the first time I encountered it (worrying not to mess it up).  Railjack also has a new system (for the forge, right? or the skill points?): keep the mouse pressed to have a meter fill up to 100% and then it's confirmed.

IMO DE would be best to keep one unified experience everywhere and not introduce new GUI interaction flows with each new content coming out.

Edited December 30, 2019 by GrandLompus

[Hixlysss]

13 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

And in my opinion, this is a big problem that hurts the retention of the new players. To get far in the game, you either need to have in-game friends that can explain stuff to you at almost every single step, or consult a wiki on a regular basis. A lot of people are not "wiki" people, and get pissed off when the game doesn't explain anything and just expects them to go and read outside source material.

This situation with Vanquish/Convert is a good example of this problem. This is a critical timed choice, it must be explained in-game, you shouldn't assume that a new player will just go look for patchnotes for the old blood, and figure out what do these choices mean...

One could argue that "Well, then it's not their kind of game." Much like those who say "Dark souls is too hard, make it easier!" I mean...at this point, what...six? almost seven years in and it hasn't changed? And warframe has been growing ever since? It's not exactly high on the list of priorities for DE.

But who knows, Steve did recently say he wants to address the new player experience, the tutorial mission and such. Perhaps this will be part of that revision?

[Ariae]

For me, reading up on every aspect of a content patch kind of ruins the experience because of how I enjoy playing, and having timed choices is kinda shiddy for me. Sure, I look up stuff on the wiki after i've played through the first run but not everyone does that. As many has said, a simple prompt with the consequences of your choice OR no timer would be fine, I mean they haven't really explained anything else in game so that's a pretty huge task to redesign the whole game, but the timer just makes both approaches (wiki once encountering a choice/enjoy the experience once before wikipedia) worthless and the result is clearly a feel of "loss of time and effort" which is something anyone making games would do well to steer clear off. The timer needs to go, or the consequences need to be shortly explained during the choice no matter what y'all say. It's just bad game design practice as it is now.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Ariae
apparently curse word

[Elannor]

Absolutely. I just finished the mission myself and chose Convert. I would have looked it up when I was given the choice, but it was 20 seconds to decide... and I couldnt use the chat to ask my squad. I maybe should have Alt+F4 and hope it wouldn't have saved.

I went in region chat later to explain, and it was absolutely crazy, everyone was defending DE for this choice of not telling you. "You should watch Devstreams and read tutorials online if you want to know"... 

Can you imagine, if this was any other game, how absolutely retarded that statement is? It basically translates to: "Ah, don;t enjoy the game, you need to read entire forums and walls of text to know what you need"

 

I've been playing since 2014, and this is the only time I've felt like rage-quitting because of absolutely un-user-friendly decisions by DE. Between no labeling on Raijlack UI and Liches, the game is one horrible experience.

It's been getting worse every time. The players defending DE for these abhorrent mistakes to the point where they never learn. Time played is not an excuse, I may want to avoid spoilers.  Imagine if you had to look up "Second Dream" like this.. 

Was it that hard to add: "CONVERT - The lich will become your ally. VANQUISH -  Kill the Lich and take his weapons for yourself" literally, 2 small sentences that could solve this issue. Or, you know, write it in the TUTORIAL, where it's missing? I mean, who was in charge of this decision? Fire that guy.