Ash: His current problems and the solutions to fix them

[Redfeather75]

I ❤️ ash. I use him 90% of the time. I did not like the bladestorm change but I play him differently now and don't use bladestorm.

He's really fun.

I wish he got new augments though to keep things feeling new and exciting!

[Bakaguya-sama]

What is Ash's problem? What is Ash good for?  

Killing things with his abilities.  

You know who does that far better for way less set up time?  

Saryn.   

The same problem goes for almost every other Warframe in the game: Why not just play Saryn instead?  

A warframe either have to be very tanky, have weapon DPS buff or bring some special utilities on top of its own killing power. Gara and Khora are good examples - Both can kill very fast in large AoE, not as effortless Saryn of course, but they also bring tons of utilities that's good for defensive type missions and has way to significantly increase their durability.  

Otherwise, if all a Warframe has is killing power, then logically speaking there's no reason to use it over Saryn (of course you can always play it for fun). Ash is one, Ember (even post rework) is another of such Warframe.  

Next time someone ask "Why even nerf things in a PvE game?", This is why. You have things so blatantly overpowered that it simply remove other choices from the game. The problem is not that certain choices are bad (Ash is amazing and fun), the problem is that some choices are just so much better that people will default back to it 90% of the time. You can't always buff the other choices to the same level because it trigger a slippery powercreep as well as make certain choices lose their identity.  

I like Ash's current kit, especially his 4. Having to mark enemies then Jump in is actually kinda fun, satisfying and engaging gameplay. I don't want to turn it into a fancier looking insta AoE nuke. Sure you can make Ash immediately start popping things the moment you press 4, but... is that still Ash? The problem is still Saryn being too good for too little effort, not Ash being bad.   

[Tatann]

3 hours ago, Bakaguya-sama said:

. Sure you can make Ash immediately start popping things the moment you press 4, but... is that still Ash? 

Yes, it is what Ash has been for a longer period than his current state, so one could say that it's his true form.

Problem is, like current Saryn, it was too strong. But removing his one ability to quickly deal with a group of enemies wasn't the right move. It needed to be adjusted, not removed.

[rs_sakuras]

On 2020-01-02 at 6:55 PM, peterc3 said:

Basically a return to old BS. No.

Old bs was actually fun

 

[-FrutyX-]

I can only agree that Bladestorm needs to be reworked again.

Ash used to be my most favorite Warframe,and it was fun back in the day,but now,Bladestorm is just too slow and boring.

 

All this "marking enemies" idea is just terrible,it's very slow for Warframe and it's fast gameplay,especially compared to other DPS frames,before you even mark a enemy it's already killed by someone else.

I do hope he'll be reworked and Ash will become much better....

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-01-28 at 11:53 AM, Tatann said:

Favourite doesn't mean most played.

I never said it did, I`m just presenting facts about Ash and showing that players actions are showing the state that Ash is in no matter what ppl think or say.

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-01-29 at 12:01 AM, Redfeather75 said:

I ❤️ ash. I use him 90% of the time. I did not like the bladestorm change but I play him differently now and don't use bladestorm.

He's really fun.

I wish he got new augments though to keep things feeling new and exciting!

Same. I like ninjas and the concept of teleportation which is why I like (old) bs, but now I don`t really use bs than much anymore, using it while playing solo is not too bad but it`s not as good as the way it use to be. When I see a Ash in missions, the only ability I see used is his 2 which say a lot. I have come up with some improvement on two of his augments based on my ideas which I will post on a later date so look out for it.

[AlphaPHENIX]

On 2020-01-02 at 5:18 PM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

2nd Ability: Smoke Screen

  Hide contents

·       Increase the cast stun duration to 4 sec.

·       The smoke left behind will last for 10 seconds.

·       The smoke cloud has a 5m radius which can be increased by range mods.

·       Enemies that enter the smoke will have a 6 sec stun duration and are 40% more susceptible to damage. If allies are in the cloud they cannot be targeted by enemies.

·       All stun durations cannot be increased by duration mods.

On 2020-01-02 at 5:18 PM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

4th Ability: Blade Storm

  Hide contents

·       When activating the ability, it will start instantly.

·       Pressing the ability will bring you into the animation while holding the ability will send clones out to kill instead of you.

·       If you want to jump out of bs, press the ability again and the clones will continue to kill enemies.

·       Enemies that are red can be killed by players.

·       There is no limit to how many enemies he can kill within the radius of the enemy he`s aiming at.

·       An indicator is shown of the number of enemies that are going to be killed by bs.

·       Sliding before activating will increase the animation and clones` attack speed by 20%.

[OGsouth]

Upvote dis, ash definately needs a huge rework and hes been forgotten about. It would be so awesome to play on a useful ash 😂

[(PSN)Vexx757]

15 hours ago, OGsouth said:

Upvote dis, ash definately needs a huge rework and hes been forgotten about. It would be so awesome to play on a useful ash 😂

I appreciate the upvote. Just to correct you and anyone that says this and is reading; I`m sure you want Ash to get tweaks, if that's the case you want a revisit from him not a rework. 

Rework - When an ability is remove and replaced with a new ability or combined into an existing ability to make space for a new ability. e.g. Excel, Limbo, Wukong, Vauban.

Revisit - When you tweak existing abilities to improve their performance. e.g. Nezha, Oberon, Nyx, Ash (nerf)

DE make up the rules but don`t follow them that's why ppl get it wrong.

Also just to quote you on another post.

"Not a coincidence that ash was one of the most played frames 2 yrs ago and now is one of the least. Common sense tells me rework"

If you have read my post I have shown proved and confirmed that it`s not a coincidence and Ash does needs a REVISIT.

 

[unknow99]

These smokescreen suggestions are GREAT.

[AlphaPHENIX]

6 hours ago, unknow99 said:

These smokescreen suggestions are GREAT.

Jelly-filled are my FAVORITE.
Nothing beats an jelly-filled smokescreen.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-02-07 at 8:52 PM, AlphaPHENIX said:

-snip-

Just to replay to a reply you sent me on another post;

"As a person who builds for less duration on purpose, because Smoke Screen is not re-castable, I support this message." 

I would prefer to go for less duration and more range coz I want to see Ash all the time but I don`t coz it`s not worth me doing so. With my changes you have a choice to either have more duration (high levels) or vice versa to benefit from the range and stuns. (which I think makes smoke screen more fun) As you can see the stun duration doesn't affect mods so you can still benefit from it whether you have more duration or more range.

Also I added something new to smoke screen for anyone that wants more duration on Ash;

"If Ash stays in the cloud the duration won`t start until he either he leaves the cloud or the cloud duration runs out. "

This can benefit your type of play style just in case you need to be unseen for a few seconds and for anyone wanting a longer duration has the option for it.

 

[AlphaPHENIX]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

-snip-

I am sad that this isn't in the game already.

[Tyreaus]

On 2020-01-02 at 7:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Holding the ability will make both shurikens target the enemy you`re aiming at dealing double slash damage and adds critical damage based on what crit damage mods you have equipped on your melee weapon, also headshots will do more damage.

I feel like Shuriken would be better improved by increasing the number of shuriken launched / number of targets struck. It helps work with Seeking Shuriken that way.

There also needs to be some kind of targeting fix or LOS limit of some kind (not necessarily "not through walls" but maybe "not behind the player"), since the shuriken always originate from the front firing forward but will target things behind the player or at odd angles - often unsuccessfully.

I'm a bit weary on making Shuriken too much of a "spam" ability, since his 4 kind of fits that bill with the combo counter, and multiple "spam abilities" start to compete for energy. I.e., a spam-heavy 1 can crowd out his 4, which would suck.

_{Also it's kind of counter-intuitive to have a hold ability also spam-focused.}

On 2020-01-02 at 7:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Teleporting to a wall will make ash hang to the wall for 3 seconds.

I'm a bit iffy on this. I want to wall-cling when I want to wall-cling, not when the game wants me to. Maybe I'm teleporting to a wall because it's the best surface to target so I can keep moving quickly. It'd get clunky if I have to start fussing with extra button presses just to detach.

Same goes for "staying in the air". (Though melee 3.0 seems to have an okay-ish amount of hangtime - I don't want to be forced into it either way)

On 2020-01-02 at 7:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Sliding before activating will increase the animation and clones` attack speed by 20%.

The melee attack speed, I think, is just fine for the baseline of BS speeds. Sliding into abilities to boost them is just weird as a concept. I'm not explicitly against it if the current melee boost to BS continues, but it's not something I see myself using on purpose.

On 2020-01-02 at 7:18 AM, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken. As long as enemies continuously keep receiving bleeding ticks, your damage will increase over time with no limit.

The first synergy feels optional (that's good) and the second feels like part of his kit (cf. Bladestorm and Smokescreen right now), so those aren't bad. But this feels a lot more like a "required" synergy. I'd be more tempted to say it builds damage from any Slash procs, but given its interactions with the combo counter right now, I can't help but feel it'd be better to leverage that in some manner instead (e.g. by buffing the damage bonus from the combo counter).

The revisit is really good otherwise and I wholly endorse it. Just those few nitpicks. 🙂 

[(PSN)Gin_Da_Merciless]

1.  It should be customizable like exalted weapons.  Damage scales with combo meter giving him a sort of ranged melee attack.  Holding it makes him rapid fire.

2. Smokescreen can make nearby allies invisible and leaves a cloud behind that allies can pass through to become invisible.  The cloud cause enemies to choke leaving them open to finishers.  If invisible and near enemies they will begin choking.

3.  Can teleport anywhere regardless of having a target.  Holding it causes a miniature classic bladestorm but ash doesnt teleport into it.  Teleporting after doing this will allow you to join in the blade storm.  (How it is now)

4.  Exalted Short Sword with hidden blades that does mainly slash dmg. He gets a blood combo counter that goes up the more blood is spilled. Clones will randomly appear starting bleed procs increasing in attacks the higher the counter is through line of sight.  Shuriken and melee damage increase the higher it goes. Smokescreen now dots but no bleeding.  Teleport now insta kills target or makes a slash aoe in vicinity where teleport lands.  Slow decay of blood counter when not fighting.  Allies causing blood to spill boosts the counter as well but at a significantly lesser rate.  Customizable 

Thats all i got

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-02-12 at 2:56 AM, Tyreaus said:

-snip-

Shuriken being spamable is not an issue since it has the combo mult added to it also bs is not spamable because you have to wait until all enemies are killed plus bs will do more damage than shuriken anyways. The hold mechanic is mainly for solo/stealth play where you have to B still to aim at a target to deal more damage but that doesn`t mean you can only use it in solo play you have the choice.  

Clinging to walls is a choice, if you don't want to don`t aim at the wall how I see it, it`s better than what we have now besides not clinging to walls is nova can do. Also I forgot to add press x to bullet jump of the wall, press circle to detach. (ps4 controller)

You are not forced to stay in the air if you don`t want to do so, don`t attack.

Once again its a choice a least this way, the animation and clone`s attack speed wont rely on attack speed mods.

Just to ask, which synergy did you say feels required?

[Tyreaus]

34 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Shuriken being spamable is not an issue since it has the combo mult added to it also bs is not spamable because you have to wait until all enemies are killed plus bs will do more damage than shuriken anyways.

I feel like I may not have been clear.

If both have combo counters*, both want to be used - a lot. And because the combo counters have timers on them, they really dislike not being used. But if two abilities want to be used basically all the time, how do you make them both happy? Can you even keep them both happy, if they're feeding from the same resource? Or does it just become "use one, ignore the other"?

_{*Not necessarily the melee combo counter, but just "something that increments per hit and diminishes over time"}

43 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

The hold mechanic is mainly for solo/stealth play where you have to B still to aim at a target to deal more damage but that doesn`t mean you can only use it in solo play you have the choice.  

To me, at least, that's still kind of counter-intuitive with a spam-happy ability. Nothing inherently wrong with the idea, it just seems kind of weird.

45 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Clinging to walls is a choice, if you don't want to don`t aim at the wall how I see it, it`s better than what we have now besides not clinging to walls is nova can do. Also I forgot to add press x to bullet jump of the wall, press circle to detach. (ps4 controller)

Adding more to the use key and having to connect aiming at the wall with wall-clinging just feels like it's creating a headache. Not only does it go against the "ADS to wall-cling" control, it makes using Teleport in any semblance of an emergency really finnicky, because aiming at the floor near a wall requires a bit more care than just aiming at the big-arse wall. Would it not just be better to take advantage of the teleport animation, move the player character "hitbox" to the wall instantly, but hover them in that location until the animation catches up? That'd allow for someone to tap 3, hold RMB (or controller equivalents), and end up wall-clinging at the other end without extra fuss.

50 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

You are not forced to stay in the air if you don`t want to do so, don`t attack.

The problem with "if you don't like it, then don't do it" is that you can just say that for the Warframe itself. I.e., "If you don't like how Ash handles, then don't play Ash". But you want Ash to be fun and smoother to use and better in general, right? Same sort of thing here.

54 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Just to ask, which synergy did you say feels required?

Using Shuriken to increase Bladestorm's damage.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-02-14 at 3:35 PM, Tyreaus said:

-snip-

If I remember correctly the combo multi from abilities like atlas, rhino have nothing to do with the combo multi from melee.

Well Ember does the same thing you can hold 1 for more damage and spam for more damage, how I see it pressing is for spamming at random enemies and the hold is to target a specific enemy you want killed.

When it comes to button presses I won`t argue it since I don`t know hat it would be like on PC. When I came up with the holding mechanic for teleport, I was thinking of it to be more used for stealth because the hold is meant to be for careful targeting of where you want to go but it you want to get somewhere quick you can just jump, glide and then use hold teleport, if there is an emergency, just use his 2 since it can stun enemies longer but again it`s a choice of which escape tactic you want to use.

Ultimately it`s all about playstyle, no matter how much improvements I gave Ash if someone don`t like his play style they won`t play him, unfortunately I can`t please everyone plus staying in the air is a choice vs someone liking Ash`s playstyle it`s one ability vs a whole frame.

I wouldn't` say the shuriken and bs synergy is a requirement, it gives you a choice you can use melee to ramp up damage which makes you have to stop to hit enemies and mod specifically for that or use shuriken to build up damage with the advantage not to mod for it and lets you do other things while ramping up but loosing energy for more damage but that's where the combo multi comes in to use less energy.

I also want to add that I appreciate asking the questions instead of saying "that`s stupid", "that`s a dumb idea" or just outright saying no. All I ask is if you disagree just ask the question and if you don`t like my answer you have the right to do so and we can just agree to disagree.

[Tyreaus]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

If I remember correctly the combo multi from abilities like atlas, rhino have nothing to do with the combo multi from melee.

I know: that's why I said "Not necessarily the melee combo counter, but just 'something that increments per hit and diminishes over time'."

5 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

Well Ember does the same thing you can hold 1 for more damage and spam for more damage, how I see it pressing is for spamming at random enemies and the hold is to target a specific enemy you want killed.

The big difference is that Ember's 1 is single target per cast on any cast. It's effectively always a charge ability, like bows are. Shuriken, on the other hand, starts off as a multi-target ability and the revisit turns it into a single-target ability on hold. As I said: there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but that change-over in utility is weird IMO.

5 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

When it comes to button presses I won`t argue it since I don`t know hat it would be like on PC. When I came up with the holding mechanic for teleport, I was thinking of it to be more used for stealth because the hold is meant to be for careful targeting of where you want to go but it you want to get somewhere quick you can just jump, glide and then use hold teleport, if there is an emergency, just use his 2 since it can stun enemies longer but again it`s a choice of which escape tactic you want to use.

The point is about the forced wallcling, not the anywhere-teleport (which I'm all for). The entire auto-wallcling seems like a QoL sort of change, so players don't have to wall-cling manually when teleporting. But that creates a fuss when trying not to do it, which is likely the more common use-case. So it's a QoL addition that lowers the quality of life of something else - not really that much of a win-win.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

I wouldn't` say the shuriken and bs synergy is a requirement, it gives you a choice you can use melee to ramp up damage which makes you have to stop to hit enemies and mod specifically for that or use shuriken to build up damage with the advantage not to mod for it and lets you do other things while ramping up but loosing energy for more damage but that's where the combo multi comes in to use less energy.

A few things:

1. The OP says "To increase the damage of bs you must use shuriken". You might have had the melee combo counter increasing Bladestorm's damage in mind, but the phrasing doesn't include that. Might want to edit that.

2. The OP says that the increase from Shuriken is limitless. If you're meaning to keep the current interaction with the melee combo counter contributing to Bladestorm's damage, the melee counter has a cap at 12x.

3. If you do mean to keep the combo multiplier bonus, it would work with the proposed "Shuriken bonus", not replace it. So it isn't an either-or situation.

I think you have something in mind that isn't 1:1 with what you've got in the OP, and that may need a little more clearing up.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

One thing that I didn`t write about is how bs consumes energy, I wouldn't mind if it went back to consuming 100 energy but I`ll ask you guys... how would you like Ash`s bs to consume energy? 

[(XBOX)Naughty Yautja]

I love all the suggested tweeks too the abilities and synergies! Really hope DE takes a look and conciders everything there! Also I have a concept on bladestorm I thought I should at least put out there. I really miss the days when it was a fire and forget ability. Also the fact that Ash's clones are called shadow clones just makes me think of an anime that I like "Naruto". So with those two points I thought, what if Bladestorm were to instead create legit fighting copies of Ash, his current kit, and all the mods therein! But we don't just want one powerful wukong clone, or four mirage clones that are glued to the hip, or one or two slow lumbering atlas golems. Maybe what we need is an agressive clone ability with mass numbers! If we could get something like 20-30 agressive, enemy seeking melee clones and have their damage output be based on the fact that they are copies, and use the exact same warframe mods as well as the same melee weapon and mods as the original Ash. Also as a slight gimmick, each clone will randomly be assigned only one of Ash's first three abilities to frequently use in combat between their storm of melee attacks. First the casting of Bladestorm would be charged, meaning that the player could either tap the ability to get one clone or hold the cast to increase the amount of clones as well as the energy cost. The max amount of clones would be determined by Ash's max energy and the cost per clone. The health and shields of each clone would start at 50% of Ash's stats, but they would be increased or decreased based on power strength. Their overall movement, sprint, and melee attack speed will increase or decrease inversly based on duration (higher duration means faster clones), the cost per clone and how often they use their one random ability will be determined by power efficiency, ability range will effect the range in which they will automatically detect and seek out enemies. Also the clone would stay around indefinatly or until killed by an enemy. If the player decides to active Bladestorm while clones are already in play, all the remaining clones will be forcefully terminated and Ash will recieve a 50% energy cost refund for each remaining clone. Sorry for the running sentences and bad punctuation, I'm typing with a controller. 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

On 2020-02-23 at 9:03 AM, (XB1)Naughty Yautja said:

-snip-

I wouldn't say Ash`s old bs was a "fire and forget" since you were in the animation it`s bs now that is a "fire and forget" since you can do other things while it`s active. These are good ideas but I`d rather them go to a new warframe, maybe a mimic frame. Also with these improvements, in your opinion how would bs consume energy?

[sitfesz]

To me, ash is the best invis frame and some things bother me as well, however I don't want it to be changed much.

- Just remove teleport target requirement
- Give bladestorm a mesa peacemaker cone for application (instant start would be also great, but maybe too much)
- Maybe make seeking shuriken augment baseline for charging 1

[(PSN)ZillaJrKaijuKing]

I like these ideas, but I’d rather make sending out the clones for Blade Storm the “tap” option and joining them the “hold” option, similar to what we have now.  Having the clones attack for you while you go after another group of enemies is more convenient and disrupts the flow of gameplay less, so I’d rather that be the more readily accessible option.

I don’t like the idea of sliding to speed up the Blade Storm animation.  It’s not very intuitive and would make you feel obligated to awkwardly slide around randomly just to get the full effect.