Why Do We UI Like We UI?

[Ham_Grenabe]

2 hours ago, Nathalieh said:

I don't buy this, as someone with over 4k hours on ingame missions i enjoy the new more slick UI and having the information where is needed and some flavor in all of them; it all boils down to preference when it comes to UI and it makes sense that they are choosing to stop the overwhelming new players, after all if they want to keep developing the game and having it last as long as possible they need a player base as big as possible.

There's a subtlety here: whether someone likes the UI one way or the other boils down to preference. Whether it's actually the best UI for the task does not.

There are right and wrong ways to do this. There are best practices and bad practices, which emerge from the tasks being performed and the information required for those tasks. DE can't just split the difference between the players asking for less info and those asking for more. 

[Tails-san]

10 minutes ago, RoachyToasty said:

Why are Infected Clip and Seeking Fury R10? Are they getting % changes? If so, will Elemental, Reload Speed, and Punch Through Riven Stats have different scaling to compensate?

It's a mock-up, it's not hooked up into the actual game at all. The mission also implies that it's a void fissure (because prime parts were gotten), a syndicate mission (because Rhino found medallions), and a Railjack mission (because mag sabotaged crewships), all at the same time.

[RogueVoxel]

Great instead of getting too much now I will get mystery parts

[Ramflare]

This is really great to read. Items labels should 100% be on by default though, imagine a new player entering their inventory looking for stuff like frame parts, they'd have no clue what they're looking at. At least until you guys get around to improving the icons which could be months - years being real.

I'm actually liking the new end mission screen! more stats like healing are something I've been wanting for ages but I'd like it if more of the screen was filled with facts - maybe cut the image space at the top in half.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Ramflare

[Ham_Grenabe]

12 hours ago, Ramflare said:

It least until you guys get around to improving the icons which could be months - years being real.

Even better, creating super-unique icons is far more work - for what will still be far less information - than just turning on all the labels. It’s intentionally taking the hardest path to the same location.

[Borg1611]

5 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

End of mission: There will be item counts just like in any other grid, the mock is essentially just saying, space for 10 things. Also a title and whatnot, the mock is still WIP and generally they also change as we implement. In both sections we would have sorting, so if you got Intrinsics that would be sorted to the top of progression, if you were doing a Simaris daily his rep would sort up, but if you jsut scanned a few enemies it would be lower down. So hopefully with this, 6 slots is enough to show you the important stuff you got that mission.

I'm glad this was posted because none of that is clear in the screenshot. At first I thought we were going to be getting less information and in a more annoying format. 

Not necessarily a UI thing I guess, but when it comes to the end of mission screen, it'd be nice if you guys addressed issues with inaccurate results screens as well, particularly when you abort from an open world area or a RJ mission and you actually have already saved rewards that aren't always shown. This is also often an issue when flying to someone's Dry Dock. 

[DeeDeetheSpy]

the EoM screen looks great. I would like to see "Enemies CC'd", "% enemies attacked you instead of other players", and "Life saving heals" or something. I know its silly. but shows value in other roles.

 

On a serious note, and one I know would take a S#&$ ton of work (If I can get a job doing it for you guys and knew what I was doing I would). I would love the Invinitroy UI to have a more elaberate search system. Even if it was manual tags put into the search box in a command line way. (kinda like how Google and what not have secret commands to make better searches that are not obvious) So you don't have to do a special UI, but I can do like, "Disposition>2" and the search results will only show me rivens that have a weapon disp of 3 or higher.

[Ramflare]

Key issue with the end of mission reward screen, people like to read while loading that means as much info as possible available at first glance. Please use some of that wasted space.

Edited January 25, 2020 by Ramflare

[ByteRoster]

I feel as if our criticisms and desire for a UI that supports the data-driven direction of the game and its many builds & stat combos is falling upon deaf ears.

I don't want a UI akin to a mobile game. I want information. Give it to me! I already play with the Wiki open in Chrome anyway, as do millions and millions of others.

Please reconsider this obsession with simplicity in your UI design. It's just not fun to be promped with dumbed-down info screens over and over and over at every turn.

 

[Tromeo]

wow new end mission screen for squad look worse!

For end of mission new UI the Inventory tracking is wayyyy more important to showcase the none existing teamwork/squad or awarding snowflake flavored award. 10 reward shown is not enough make it 15 or 20 seen at first glance and don't dare make me hover with mouse on the resources/item to figure out how much I got/which ones. You could easily view stat and item view on one screen if there was no glamour picture of the whole squad. It look fine as it is with a full squad but think of how much wasted space its gonna have for a solo player. I get it the proposed end mission screen look more fun it can show micro transaction err character customization but i want more a practical boring screen.

Just looking at recent stuff like the parazon UI Lich hunting is a freaking mess that require juggling between the navigation Kuva Lich tab and the Parazon arsenal tab. Why its not on ONE screen? No decent way to filter vaulted relics when cracking fissures... Those issues are not even mentioned in your wall of text.

DE you communicate a lot but your not listening.

edit. also I feel the Dojo/decoration/building UI need improvement way more then the end mission ui

Edited January 25, 2020 by Tromeo
elaborating more on whats missing

[_qqq_]

5 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

Our logic was that 90% of our items have very recognizable icons

You're joking, right?

For the love of all that is holy, don't make the UI any worse. It's already sufficiently bad, no need to pile on any more [Abouts], Tabs or wasted screen space...

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by _qqq_

[xERENx]

I saw it on reddit and it looks tidier and without having to give much to the mouse wheel
 

[Fluffysbeans]

5 hours ago, [DE]Pablo said:

Our logic was that 90% of our items have very recognizable icons

That's some interesting math there. When you guys had that, uh, 'logic', did you forget relics existed and make up a majority of the items anyone cares about?

[Vali]

Hey Pablo, 

I do understand the want to better streamline how information is presented to the player and prevent overloading stats, text and numbers to newer / mid-tier players I also somewhat agree that the proposed post-mission screen is able to achieve that. However, this simplification comes as a detriment to more experienced players who are capable of understanding the vast amount of information presented to them. Hiding information does help newer players ease into the game, but veteran players don't need that.

Having two entirely different sets of UI's is impossible to upkeep, but some small changes could help tremendously with click fatigue for veteran players.

For example: 

- Removing 'about' menus in the weapon screen, having all the information presented to the user directly.

- Hiding the splash screen in the proposed post-mission reward screen, further extended reward information instead.

I hope this is taken into consideration.

(And also no, prime parts all share similar icons, making it impossible to tell the difference between them in relic missions. Avionics and relics are also near impossible to tell apart.)

Edited January 25, 2020 by Vali

[kapn655321]

The more times we've seen/interacted with an item, the more likely it is we need the finer details, and less likely we need cursory details. Perhaps consider some sort of algorithm that learns preference, (that a player can assist/override) in how it handles each situation. Say you start with subcategories/droptabs: When a player first sees them they'll dip into them here and there.. The longer they play, the more they're scrolling or clicking past everything to get to what information isn't already rote and learned for them.

If the game can begin to infer, "The last x warframes they've examined, player skipped past this information consistently as though they don't need to see it," then it may then be safe to assume they'll do the same. The more these patterns emerge, the more it can accommodate that. New details, taking longer to assimilate into that flow so it's not counter productive when learning features of new items. If it's noticing a pattern, a check box (that we may ignore,) can come up to say, "would you like us to hide (or show) descriptions on similar items you're familiar with?"

Ultimately, I feel the only way every player will be happy with their User Interface experience, is if it can assess every possibly advantage to streamline itself just for them. The player who wants a simple introduction, and the player who wants to dive deeply into the details, may just as well be the same person at two different points in time. If every part of UI function can be assessed for usage statistics, and most of the leg work done automatically, it's problems will aim to sort and solve themselves.

Example: I've told STEAM over 1700 times that I don't want them to advertise anime games. It still advertises new ones. My user experience has done everything it can to get the hint across, and it would improve my experience if it at least made an attempt to meet me halfway. Ever sift through Netflix interests? Click rapidly off of Youtube channels you didn't like, in order to teach the algorithm a thing or two? That influence makes it uniquely user specific, and finds you the most relevant results for your interests.

Edited January 25, 2020 by kapn655321

[(PSN)LoneWolf_001]

5 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

Ok, I'm cool with the new UI changes. BUT:

This needs to come back in one way or another. Hovering over abilities just to notice different stat changes is a pain in the butt. The ability stats should always be on display, and the videos, descriptions and all that could be hidden behind a hover or a click on the ability, as that would act as giving a more detailed description. Stats however, we need those on display at all times, because at the end of the day, stats are all that matters in this (and most other) game(s), so obfuscating it is just wasting the players' time.

Also, please hide the end of game stats for other players. They only lead to toxicity. Do display the players own end of game stats (Damage dealt, damage taken, total kills, blah blah), but hide what the other players did. We don't need to know that, and neither does anyone else. All it does is create a stupid sense of competition that shouldn't even exist in a cooperative environment, and that sense of competition brings with it toxic behavior. So just hide it. It's unnecessary and doesn't help in any positive way.

The end of mission stats are nice among friends but I agree that it could add some fuel to the fire to how players treat other players. It's a good idea for friendly competition and even as a friendly teaching moment (hey buddy you did good here but you could do this to fix that) but between strangers it'll just be (hey you with the Trinity, what were you doing you $#%*&%@).

That being said, you guys are doing beautiful work, keep it up!

[MobyTheDuck]

Please dont try to fix what isnt broken.

The end mission screen is FINE. We dont need more epeen stats, non relevant info, even less item labels and 70% of wasted space.

JUST REMOVE ALL THESE "ABOUT/TAB/(I)" AND PUT THE STATS ON MY SCREEN!

I dont want to click two buttons and then hover over the "Purchase" or "Blueprint" option to see a weapon stats! 90% of the screen is literally wasted space!
We dont need big panoramas and fancy hover text, WE NEED INFORMATION TO BE ON THE SCREEN, NOT HIDDEN BEHIND A HOVER/HOLD OPTION.

[kapn655321]

2 minutes ago, MobyTheDuck said:

The end mission screen is FINE. We dont need more stats, non relevant info, even less item labels and 70% of wasted space.

JUST REMOVE ALL THESE "ABOUT/TAB/(I)" AND PUT THE STATS ON MY SCREEN!

I've seen a few posts recently about having more performance stats, and that seemed to play well with some folks. Customizing those details to some extent can help us determine how cluttered it is. Being able to tell the UI, "I really do not ever wish to waste your space for So and So's headshots on average," would be beneficial to many, whereas others may be interested to see how they stacked up, or what set one player apart from the others.

I feel you and everyone else is right. We want exactly what we want, no more or less. The UI is going to have to figure that out for itself eventually. I see no way to truly nail it for every/anyone other than either a wall of options a mile long, or a Smart UI that learns what we like.

[DraekoSilver]

13 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

I've seen a few posts recently about having more performance stats, and that seemed to play well with some folks. Customizing those details to some extent can help us determine how cluttered it is. Being able to tell the UI, "I really do not ever wish to waste your space for So and So's headshots on average," would be beneficial to many, whereas others may be interested to see how they stacked up, or what set one player apart from the others.

I feel you and everyone else is right. We want exactly what we want, no more or less. The UI is going to have to figure that out for itself eventually. I see no way to truly nail it for every/anyone other than either a wall of options a mile long, or a Smart UI that learns what we like.

What do you wanna bet those headshots are going to be glowy default excaliburs half the time? I mean, they only just fixed default excalibur showing up on liches.

[Yrkul]

A lot of the mouse-overs and clicks bog down functionality, and actually obscures information sought. I understand, that you want to avoid information overload, but right now you are overcompensating. The game offers up a lot of information during gameplay, and the new UI strategy tends to obfuscate that.

I come across screens with one mouse-over point and an entirely blank screen at times. Functions often have a series of redundant clicks, before I have to make actual choices. Basic information, that could easily sit in a corner or edge of an icon without obscuring it, now need to be accessed with clicks and mouse-overs.

A good UI in an information rich environment need to give users easy access to that information. Some information is needed for quick overview, like amount in possession, amount recieved, if a weapon/frame has been mastered or relic refined etc. Other information is less valuable for a bigger picture, like the effect of a mod swap on an ability, and can be covered up until retrieved. And while this may break with a functionality pattern, a strict adherence to the current pattern is hiding information, that is needed up front and accessible at a glance.

You also seriously need to reconsider your use of washed out colours on icons. Some of us are getting a bit old, and our eye sight isn't what it used to be. Subduing a mass of icons and making them less distinguishable isn't helping.

[Opetyr]

I don't care what the other warframes look like since I was in a squad already and knows which games they used. Please stop stealing other UIs since you can't get the correct information to show.   Also really  item labels should always be on. Having to scroll over everything to know what it is and how many you got is just stupid.  Functionality over form please.

Also if you are going to hide relevant data like people getting afk leechers then make the game auto ban them cause it is already a hassle.   Also don't listen to @Gabbynaru since people still Want to know what other people are doing because it is a TEAM GAME and as they say We all lift together. 

If you want to fix things then the lich history search do you can search for important things like weapons or type of damage.   The search function is completely worthless.  Or the paragon screen which could have the known mods needed.   You know stuff people have requested and not stuff that people have been having no issue with for years.

[b4timert]

can we please see our lich mod kill history while we mod or parazon.

I don't want to go to my lich then try and remember what 6 mod i already used after looking at it. then go back to the lich screen if you were unsure and then if you remembered wrong go back to change the mod again.

[kapn655321]

20 minutes ago, DraekoSilver said:

What do you wanna bet those headshots are going to be glowy default excaliburs half the time? I mean, they only just fixed default excalibur showing up on liches.

I'd bet it would be Me with my Knell; when someone outdoes me on a good day I like to notice and congratulate them.

[Indecisive1]

I sort of like the aesthetic of the end mission screen, but there's so much loss of information in favour of the top half of the screen which has the people in the squad, maybe this could be moved up a bit to accommodate for more information?

[Worldbrand]

First, I want to express how refreshing it is to see that this discussion is taking place, and how you are addressing it. While normally I would suggest that UI be focus-tested separately from gameplay, the type of users you would need for focus testing probably can't be grabbed off of the street- I'll elaborate below. In lieu of that, the collaborative nature of this workshop is really appreciated.

When you consider the timescales of how your players experience the game, I think it's reasonable to suggest that almost everybody you are designing new content for (post-TWW players, let's say) is essentially a power user. This viewpoint that there is a dichotomy of players for whom things need to be kept simple versus players for whom information needs to be readily available paints both priorities as equal, a notion that I strongly disagree with. A confused player will stop being confused once an explanation is given to them. A player who has to click two extra times to find out what they want- wait, that's everybody- will be perpetually frustrated.

Keeping things clean, simple and clear are definitely pillars of modern interface design. I have a multimedia degree, I know how important it is. However, these are principles aimed at the general public for general interfaces. They are emphasized so that people can understand and use a menu within seconds of first encountering it, for menus they will have to see less than a dozen times.

In Warframe, a massive chunk of time spent in the game is doing menuing-related activities. Of the at minimum dozens of hours it takes a player to get through all of the quest content in this game, a sizable amount of that is spent specifically looking for information and interacting with information. It's kind of important that this obfuscation doesn't add extra steps in between for actions that need to be repeated frequently by power users- and I reiterate, when I say power users, I basically mean everybody.

Here is a thought: keep track of how many times players hit escape to go from one menu in the orbiter to another. For a lot of us, that number is probably far greater than the number of screens that we even see on the way back out of the menus. The diegetic UI and the animations in between look and feel nice, but fights a player actually trying to use it. And we have to navigate these menus tens of thousands of times. The takeaway here is that actions that need to be repeated should definitely be streamlined, and I think that priority trumps cleaning things up. If a player is looking up information on the [Pennant], they shouldn't have to tab through or mouse over anything to get to its statistical information. They are almost certainly looking for it.

 

I would also like to take a step back to address the feedback that a screen might be overwhelming- let's take the old Abilities screen from the original post as an example. Yes, that screen is informationally dense and could be seen as overwhelming. Because about half of it is not being used. "Overwhelming" in design can mean a lot of things, and be caused by a large number of issues in information organization. Here, some of that could be because the information conveyed is, ironically, not enough to give a full picture. That lack of understanding paired with the informational density leads from "I am confused" to "I must be confused because there is a lot of information here that I don't know how to process."

For instance, Elemental Ward:

• Which offensive and defensive effects does it provide per Element?
• Why does it have a status chance?
• What does health mean there?

Or Effigy:

• How does this ability strengthen nearby allies? (spoilers: it doesn't)
• Where did this credit multiplier come from?
• What is this speed increase and armor reduction?
• Whose armor is being reduced? Does the effigy reduce enemy armor?

I know it's a butt-ton of work to ask that you add wiki-levels of information on abilities and mechanics that are constantly undergoing revision, I'm merely pointing out that there is a dissonance between the information being displayed that an experienced player needs to see, and the information that is inadequate that is causing new players to be confused and maybe overwhelmed.

 

P.S. Please give us back cursor and chat controls in the end-of-mission screen, especially if you're going to add scroll bars to it.