Warframe Revised: >100% Status Chance / Shotgun Megathread

[.durandle.]

On 2020-03-06 at 3:21 AM, SerenityEuphoria said:

PS: People complaining about the shotgun status changes need to recognise that the status chance before was per trigger pull, but now it's per pellet. So the 60% status chance you have on your shotguns are now PER PELLET, instead of just trigger pulls.

this is true ONLY if your shotgun was modded to less than 100% status if it was modded to 100+% status then the change was a nerf by a factor of about 3
before update a 100% status shot gun would inflict a status with EVERY pellet but one with 99% would typically inflict a status with about 1/3 pallets all this change has done is nerf the usable status shotguns down to the level of unusable for status
 

 

On 2020-03-06 at 3:25 AM, kevoisvevo said:

Well shotguns died. Thanks for killing every status shotgun across the board. They lost 50% of their power. Tested them all out. Guess you lot need to shake that box again eh

by my experience they lost closer to 67% of their power

 

On 2020-03-06 at 3:49 AM, UncleZeebs said:

Shotgun status chance make absolutely no sense now. My Boar Prime's build with Hell's Chamber, Vigilante Armaments, and all 4 hybrid status/status chance mods only has 38.3% status chance, while my Kohm with the same mods has 255% status chance. DE said they were going to fix shotgun status chance, not make it ten times worse. Why would you even use any shotgun besides Kohm now?

EDIT: Also why would you use anything besides Viral now? Consecutive stacks strip more and more health, which means more and more DPS. Unless you're fighting infested, in which case Toxic Ancients have 80% resistance to Viral, but that's still not much of a reason to not use it.

EDIT 2: Okay it I did a quick test in the Simulacrum against a level 130 Corrupted Heavy Gunner and the results were surprising. It turns out that the problem isn't the status chance, it's that the UI doesn't convey the actual effects of the new shotgun status chance system in a way we're used to. ligonare said that Kohm was a special case because the first shot is only 1 pellet. I tried firing only one shot without letting Kohm spin up against my target and was getting anywhere between between 6 to 10 status procs per shot. I then tried this with my Boar Prime and was surprised to see it also get 6 to 10 status chances per hit. it seems that instead of status chance being spread amongst the pellets, each pellet now has the same status chance. So then I just hosed my target with both shotguns and I was holding 20+ status procs on it. Yes, shotgun status is now broken, but not because it was nerfed, because it's now stupidly overpowered. Again, both my Boar Prime and Kohm have Hell's Chamber, Vigilante Armaments, and all 4 status/status chance mods.

you seem to forget that if you modded a shotgun to 100% status before the update EVERY pellet inflicted a status effect now with similar modding on any of the old 100% status shotguns not end up at around 33% so we get one third of the procs
but there was no real change to most of the low status shotguns

[Justin_Case001]

My thoughts on this will be brief.  Please restore the Blast proc to its former glory.  Reduced accuracy is kinda lame.  Please make it knock down enemies like before.  That is all.  Thank you.

[GilgaMelchi]

Le 02/03/2020 à 19:00, [DE]Bear a dit :

we have buffed the Status Chance of all Shotguns by x3 or greater

This is extremely misleading. Not a single shotgun status chance buff was greater than 3x (except maybe Kohm, but it is hard to tell when its arsenal stats are bugged right now).

In fact, technically, none of them were increased by 3x either. They were all buffed by "strictly lower than 3x" according to status chances calculations.

Edited March 10, 2020 by GilgaMelchi

[Andele3025]

2 hours ago, GilgaMelchi said:

This is extremely misleading. Not a single shotgun status chance buff was greater than 3x (except maybe Kohm, but it is hard to tell when its arsenal stats are bugged right now).

In fact, technically, none of them were increased by 3x either. They were all buffed by "strictly lower than 3x" according to status chances calculations.

This also helps show how the nerf was abritrarily targeted at pellet count causing once status shotguns to do nothing well.

[shut]

6 hours ago, Justin_Case001 said:

My thoughts on this will be brief.  Please restore the Blast proc to its former glory.  Reduced accuracy is kinda lame.  Please make it knock down enemies like before.  That is all.  Thank you.

Amen.

Blast before the patch was nice because even if it did interfere with headshots, it was at least optional on 99% of weapons. The only time players would do unwanted blast procs were if they needed it to meet some Status Chance threshold, but now that Rifle Aptitude and equivalents are buffed, this wouldn't even be an issue anymore.

But sadly, the new Blast procs are useless at best and mildly detrimental at worst (since the enemy can miss so badly that you can dodge their attack and still get hit purely by accident). It has no damage incentive and no CC incentive.
I have no idea what DE was thinking when they came up with this new version of Blast, especially when it has damage monsters like Corrosive/Viral and a CC monster like Radiation to compete with.

[Drago55577]

People are spreading misinformation despite others constantly correcting them on how shotguns work, how they used to work, and the power difference between them now. 

Status shotguns, which were characterised entirely by the fact they can proc status on every single pellet vs having a 5-15%~ per pellet procs chance, are strictly worse at proccing. (Note I'm talking about their quantity of procs over time, I will cover power below.)

Non-viable shotguns, which had low crit stats and were not able to reach 100% status, are strictly better. Previously they wouldn't be able to go above 5-15% per pellet status chance, now they can. They're still not good though. Although their status was increased by less than 3x due to how the old calculation worked and de not correctly transforming old status to new status, and not revealing why it's hard to do that.

Crit shotguns have been affected the most. These shotguns were good. Their "downside" was they couldn't effectively proc meta statuses due to having effectively 0 status chance, and the statuses were weaker than their current iteration. Now any crit shotgun can build and easily apply viral which is the best element, increasing their damage massively very quickly.

 

Back to status shotguns. They have had their capacity to proc halved or more. The Tigris Prime, which previously procced on 100% of pellets, now only procs on 40-45% of pellets. Old shotguns could apply 150% more status procs. That's a big hit. But that's not where it ends.

We've seen changes to status, including the main damage statuses . First, slash has lost it's 4x weighting and gas has been nerfed. For gas, this is a very direct nerf in its power which doesn't need further explanation. For slash it's less obvious. One might say it just means you get more of other beneficial procs, which is true. But the other beneficial procs are capped, so once you hit that cap any extra procs are effectively no proc at all. Reducing the weighting to damage procs means we will more quickly approach the cap, and a higher percentage of our already low status procs will effectively be turned into nothing, further reducing the strength of status shotguns (and status weapons). 

The status changes were a nerf to status weapons and a buff to crit weapons. Which is simply terrible. Crit weapons are already ahead of status weapons, and currently, status weapons are unusable in high end content due to status immunity.

My proposal is damage statuses like gas, heat, slash etc recieve a 4x weighting increase. This would decrease the power gap between crit and status, as well as fix a large portion of the problems introduces with the change.

The other one is, new shotgun status should be based on their status chance with an optimal status build, and then reduced by the modifier that was given by the optimal build. This would give shotguns the correct value instead of an arbitrary 3x / number of pellets. (For example, the Tigris would be at 30% base per pellet). Shotguns could then be individually balanced with the old system correctly transferred without statistical changes during the transfer, assuming optimal build.

 

Note: didn't go into the mechanics of shotguns and why anyone saying they're better is wrong because that's been covered extensively, including by me.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Drago55577

[Soul1355]

On 2020-03-05 at 3:19 PM, Mafius97 said:

Garuda's 4 doesn't proc slash when marked enemies take damage. They take damage and slash procs from the talons, but damage that is supposed to proc more slashes don't.

This. the ability itself seems to apply slash procs, but weapons and other abilities (e.g. Garuda's first ability) don't proc slashes as intended.

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 minutes ago, Drago55577 said:

People are spreading misinformation despite others constantly correcting them on how shotguns work, how they used to work, and the power difference between them now. 

Status shotguns, which were characterised entirely by the fact they can proc status on every single pellet vs having a 5-15%~ per pellet procs chance, are strictly worse at proccing. (Note I'm talking about their quantity of procs over time, I will cover power below.)

If you took a moment to get off your soapbox, you might be able to concede that how status shotguns worked was, in a word, broken. The equation required to make it tip the scales to perfect procs, without simply having an override at 100%, is the kind of code you'd see commented with suspicious "// WHY?!" and "// DO NOT CHANGE" entries. It was stupid and nonsense. It alone is the reason that the ever-popular Kohm was so powerful and yet never received any Riven disposition reduction, because that tipping point was so crucial.

It needed to go, for consistency's sake if nothing else.

 

Now let's move onto the pellet/status-per-second question. I'm not saying anyone is wrong here, but having comparative examples is helpful, isn't it?

I'll be using the Tigris Prime as a benchmark here because what we're mostly concerned with is the reload quotient. Using the fire rate, magazine capacity and reload speed we can find out how much burst is sustained. I have a handy dandy spreadsheet for calculating this (among other things) for DPS, so plugging in a fire rate 2, mag of 2 and reload of 1.8 gives us ~35.7%
Tigris Prime has a base multishot of 8. Using the fire rate, it pumps out 16 pellets per second. 35.7% of 16, rounded down, gives us a sustained fire of 5.7 bullets per second.
Previously, that meant a base of 5.7*0.044 = 0.25 procs per second. Once modded up with your standard 60/60s it hit 100% therefore 5.7 procs per second. Multishot linearly increased this modded value but didn't change for sub-100%.
Currently, this means a base of 5.7*0.113 = 0.644 procs per second. Using the old mod spread that hit 100% before, it increases to 5.7*0.383 = 2.18 procs per second. Multishot, this time, increases both in the exact same way.

Now I'm going to pick a rifle arbitrarily from my arsenal that has status favoured. Tiberon Prime is nearby the Tigris and gives us the benchmark crit-versus-status between different modes, handily enough, so I'll use its auto setting for the sake of procs.
Fire rate 8.33, mag 42, reload 2.0 gives us a reload quotient of ~71.6%. Simple this time without pellets, we have 71.6% of 8.33 = 5.96 bullets per second. Nice and similar.
At a base of 32% status, this means it's pumping out 1.9 procs per second. Modded with 60/60s we now have to apply the current ability to surpass 100% status as 32%*3.4=108.8%; 5.96*1.088 = 6.485 procs per second.

As a control I did the same with Boltor Prime and got Base 2.42 pps and modded 8.25 pps. Even the notorious status hose of the Prisma Grakata was limited by its lower base status chance, reaching 11.35 pps modded.

 

 

Now for something less reload-heavy, let's use the Boar Prime because its status/pellets match the Tigris.

Fire rate 4.67, mag 20, reload 2.8 gives reload quotient ~60.5%. 4.67 * 8 * 0.605 = 22.6 bullets per second. You might be able to see where this is going.
Old-style status meant base 22.6*0.044 = ~1 proc per second. Modded up to 100% status, of course, was 22.6 procs per second!
New-style status gives the base 22.6*0.113 = 2.55 procs per second. Modded up as before, we get 22.6*0.383 = 8.65 procs per second.

So we can see that some status shotguns, though much reduced, might still be on-par with where they ought to be compared to status-leaning rifles. Consider also the small benefit afforded to Shotguns by having a 120% mutlishot mod versus 90% for rifles.

The question to ask with regards the Tigris Prime and any that follow its profile, then, is whether the damage base is carrying their weight, as the Tigris P does nearly 5 times the damage of the Boar P, while averaging ~4 times fewer pellets per second.

[CopperBezel]

Drago55577 and I had a long talk in the other shotgun status chance changes thread and they're not exactly wrong, but it's a selective view of shotguns, as every view has to be, including mine, anytime we're talking about approximating a curve with a straight line or flat value. 

100% status shotguns got nerfed, that's not in question. Every other shotgun build, including all possible builds for many non-meta shotguns, got buffed. Whether that's percent of damage falling on procs or raw number of procs, those statements remain true. 

I don't agree with their solution - I think having a spread of shotgun status chance values is the whole benefit of the change. If you had a Tigris Prime with a 100% status build, it's doing 40% now and there's not much you can do to bring that up. In a way that's fine - not every viable shotgun should need to reach 100%. And some pure status sprayers might even be able to exceed it and max out those new x10 procs in a draw!

But pinning the new base status to 3x their existing base per-pellet status chance was an arbitrary choice, and the approximation used in place of the real value slightly, but arbitrarily, depressed the status chance of high-status shotguns relative to other ones. I think they should have been hand-set, and there wouldn't have been significant harm IMO in setting the Tigris Prime at 15% or even 20%.

(But please, please, please no weighted rolls in status chance type. Those sucked for IPS and they'd suck for anything else. If heat had a preferred roll to viral, for instance, I'd have to avoid it, because I'm using it for the armor halving and CC, not for the DoT.)

Unrelated: Are status effects on bosses in the process of getting fussed with? I noticed that Vay Hek was taking IPS in the sortie today but not elemental. 

And as the requisite coda to any post in this thread: Furthermore, Viral must be nerfed.

[TheLexiConArtist]

5 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Unrelated: Are status effects on bosses in the process of getting fussed with? I noticed that Vay Hek was taking IPS in the sortie today but not elemental. 

Anecdotally speaking, I was still getting all the usual elemental statuses I take to deal with that fight. Although, not sure whether it's the rework making my Corrosive procs so fallible, or just being an Element Enhancement sortie, but it was miserable compared to the usual time to dispatch a sortie Kek.

[nslay]

But, you know... The weighted rolls were a kind of makeshift balance mechanism for shotguns in the old system. Hence why so many shotguns have high Impact or Puncture damage... Or even neutered statuses like radiation or viral. So powerful 100% status shotguns tended to have garbage built-in types and that essentially served as a filler for pellets that don't proc at all in the new system.

[Hopeasusi]

23 minutes ago, CopperBezel said:

Drago55577 and I had a long talk in the other shotgun status chance changes thread and they're not exactly wrong, but it's a selective view of shotguns, as every view has to be, including mine, anytime we're talking about approximating a curve with a straight line or flat value. 

100% status shotguns got nerfed, that's not in question. Every other shotgun build, including all possible builds for many non-meta shotguns, got buffed. Whether that's percent of damage falling on procs or raw number of procs, those statements remain true. 

I don't agree with their solution - I think having a spread of shotgun status chance values is the whole benefit of the change. If you had a Tigris Prime with a 100% status build, it's doing 40% now and there's not much you can do to bring that up. In a way that's fine - not every viable shotgun should need to reach 100%. And some pure status sprayers might even be able to exceed it and max out those new x10 procs in a draw!

But pinning the new base status to 3x their existing base per-pellet status chance was an arbitrary choice, and the approximation used in place of the real value slightly, but arbitrarily, depressed the status chance of high-status shotguns relative to other ones. I think they should have been hand-set, and there wouldn't have been significant harm IMO in setting the Tigris Prime at 15% or even 20%.

(But please, please, please no weighted rolls in status chance type. Those sucked for IPS and they'd suck for anything else. If heat had a preferred roll to viral, for instance, I'd have to avoid it, because I'm using it for the armor halving and CC, not for the DoT.)

Unrelated: Are status effects on bosses in the process of getting fussed with? I noticed that Vay Hek was taking IPS in the sortie today but not elemental. 

And as the requisite coda to any post in this thread: Furthermore, Viral must be nerfed.

The real problem here is that DE wanted to BUFF status as an option to crit, but did the opposite. Crit shotguns got a buff, but status shotguns got massive nerfs.

How is that making status an alternative? They just gutted the only status weapons that worked without crit or hybrid builds.

This with the AOE damage falloff are the 2 part of this update that really piss me of, neither helped the game in anyway. Status shotguns dead and most AOE weapons also, just why DE why. 

[Lord_Foul]

I'm aware that it would be a radical change requiring a rework of some mods and warframe kits, but maybe its time to consider scrapping status procs on IPS and moving what is worth preserving to elements that need some extra love?

[CopperBezel]

54 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Anecdotally speaking, I was still getting all the usual elemental statuses I take to deal with that fight. Although, not sure whether it's the rework making my Corrosive procs so fallible, or just being an Element Enhancement sortie, but it was miserable compared to the usual time to dispatch a sortie Kek.

Yeah, I was having a weird issue where jumping into Operator mode was doing ... strange things, so I jumped out and tried again and was seeing normal status procs from Corrosive etc. the second go. Not sure what was happening the first time. (And yeah, it also separately just sucked. X / )

Edited March 10, 2020 by CopperBezel

[CopperBezel]

1 hour ago, Lord_Foul said:

I'm aware that it would be a radical change requiring a rework of some mods and warframe kits, but maybe its time to consider scrapping status procs on IPS and moving what is worth preserving to elements that need some extra love?

You'd really have to scrap IPS entirely and have a combined "physical" type. The only meaning that IPS distribution has right now in endgame is that some weapons can produce more Slash procs. I mean, I agree that the other statuses can go away - Puncture status is theoretically less useless now than it was before stacking, but still makes no sense and feels hamfisted in, while Impact is just a flinch that's sometimes an innate property of a hit on particular weapons (see the Arca Plasmor) and could simply be applied to a few more if needed. Bleed is a big deal, though. 

If we're being crazy, I propose combining IPS into Physical, and giving us exactly one +90% physical mod for every weapon type that multiplies on base like elemental mods do so that even base-elemental isn't left out. The status effect would be Bleed, which would still ignore armor but multiply from Physical damage on the weapon, to the tune of whatever multiplier per tick is appropriate for balance. Hunter Munitions and anything else that currently procs Slash by other means would now proc Bleed instead.

If we can decouple the bonus % from armor-ignore in damage resistance and bonus, then make Physical ignore 50% of both types of armor but otherwise be neutral to all health types.

[(PSN)Irmao2Vigilante]

Hi Guys,

 

Regarding the shotguns status chance. I criticized now I offer a solution to have status per pellet.

I believe when DE decided to have status chance above 100% shotguns and raise status mods to 90% status, some shotgun would achieve almost 200% status chance without riven, at the same time, many of them would suffer greatly. So, they created a rule (multiply by 3 and divide the status between pellets), that unfortunately created monsters (kohm) and nerfed many status shotguns.

 

So I propose a different rule to adequate status chance. I tried to preserve behaviour we saw before update 27.2, avoid what is probably DE's main concern - extremely high status chance while using only status mods - therefore what i did respect some variability but it is not rigorous statistic. It is an heuristic to bring shotguns to where status chance above 100% are possible respecting their previous behaviour.

The Formal Problem: Avoid Weapons to have status chance above 150% using only normal status chance  so multtishot mods like hell chamber and vigilante armaments to bring more than 3 status chance per pellet.

The method: Define a shotgun as reference, one achieving more that 100% chance using only 60/60mods, evaluate its status per pellet according to previous method but without the 100% cap. Adjust the probability per pellet (while the 60/60 mods are present) so it doen't exceed greatly the previous 100% threshold. Recalculate what pellet status chance when removing the 60/60 mods (remember probability per pellet is greater than 100% with 60/60 mods). Finally, use a rule of three in order to define the other non-beam shotguns status per pellet by taking the original reference shotgun status chance, the new reference status chance per pellet, and previous shotguns status chance.

 

I prefer the first solution, but I'm not the one to decide things. So here are my approach. The status per pellet is the one in bold

Here is the spreadsheet

 

Status chance Proposals

Edit: Including beam weapons status fix.

Because beam weapons are not affected by multishot, and therefore have a different dynamic. Basically the previous status chance was already per beam, multiply the status probability by 3 and divide it by the number of beams would automatic and drastically nerf beam weapons with more than 3 beam (phage and phantasma) whereas beam shotguns like convectrix. So my proposal is for beam shotguns to have status chances exactly the same as before update 27.2.0. yDue their different dynamic (continuous) and because of they re few, each probability should either be defined individually based on each individual consequence or  left as was before 27.2.0.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by (PS4)Irmao2Vigilante
Including proposal for fixing beam weapons status.

[TRPBWhite]

3 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Multishot linearly increased this modded value but didn't change for sub-100%.

[...]

Multishot, this time, increases both in the exact same way.

I have no idea what do you mean by "didn't change for sub 100%". Multishot to me seems to apply to each of those numbers in equal fashion.

Obviously the values of that increase represents would be different - the raw number of how many bullets would cause a proc would change drastically. But that's another story to what it seems to me you were saying.

Am i missing something?

[TheLexiConArtist]

1 minute ago, TRPBWhite said:

I have no idea what do you mean by "didn't change for sub 100%". Multishot to me seems to apply to each of those numbers in equal fashion.

Obviously the values of that increase represents would be different - the raw number of how many bullets would cause a proc would change drastically. But that's another story to what it seems to me you were saying.

Am i missing something?

As I interpreted the old equation, adding additional pellets would further dilute the Actual Status Chance for anything below 100%. This would mean that the number of procs per second would effectively not increase, as the higher pellets per shot is cancelled out by also increasing the divisor of the status chance. Excepting, of course, when hitting 100%, as that doesn't get divided out among pellets.

I could be entirely wrong of course, but that's what having nonsensical maths does for you.

[CopperBezel]

Multishot mods were actually completely agnostic to the weird shotgun status calculation in exactly the same way they are for all other guns. They didn't change the status chance of a given pellet, they just added more pellets of equal chance. The only connection they have to shotgun math is that the new status chance number that would display after adding a multishot mod (on any gun) used the same math as shotgun pellets - but it didn't matter in practice, because it was being applied after the status mods and was just a number in the arsenal. 

Innate multishot is, of course, the entire question to which the original and new shotgun math were answers. So innate multishot of shotguns affected their unmodded status chance, status chance for any build under 100%, and the new status numbers based on an approximation of the unmodded status chance, but that was all deliberate in both the original and the current math. Under 100%, for any given "total" (post-innate-multishot) status chance assigned or modded onto a gun, the status chance of a given pellet was lower if there were more pellets, since that's how math works.

Unrelated: Daily reminder that the new Viral status would still be competitive with new Corrosive if the status effect's bonus damage values were halved, since it would still get a massive headstart, work on unarmored enemies, and have a more universally beneficial damage type that ignores most armor on more enemies.

Edited March 10, 2020 by CopperBezel

[TRPBWhite]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

I could be entirely wrong of course, but that's what having nonsensical maths does for you.

I don't know. I mean, i've always thought the exact same thing that CopperBezel is saying. I remember reading in the Wiki that mods didn't count (edit for the purpose of the per pellet calculations, i mean. The did count for the amount of average procs). The old display changed with mod-driven multishot. I've also never bothered to check actually check for values that were not... well.. you know 😄 .

Edited March 11, 2020 by TRPBWhite
Clarity, i hope.

[Famecans]

Tigris It's broken for me, currently a critic config is more consistent than status chance in the queen of shotguns

I have a riven to boost my status tests and tigris don't seem viable compared to some common handguns

Edited March 10, 2020 by Famecans
google translator

[Famecans]

On 3/5/2020 at 2:19 PM, bradbury2k2 said:

Tigris

could you show me your setup?

Edited March 11, 2020 by Famecans

[Traumtulpe]

6 hours ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Tigris Prime has a base multishot of 8. Using the fire rate, it pumps out 16 pellets per second. 35.7% of 16, rounded down, gives us a sustained fire of 5.7 bullets per second.

Good thing that fire rate isn't a 100% irrelevant stat on the Tigris Prime. The thing has a 1.8 second reload after 2 instant shots.

Nobody wants to use a weapon with 10% crit chance, 2x crit multiplier, and 11.3% status chance. Those are just bad stats, even if the base damage is high.

[Flying_Scorpion]

Leaping Thrashers seem to be immune to viral status proc. I'm not sure if this is intended. It seems like viral procs work on other enemies with the same health type. 

 

Edit* Juggernaut is also immune to viral proc.

Edited March 11, 2020 by Flying_Scorpion

[VentiGlondi]

You should probably change Kohm and Kohmak's stats page to show stats for fully spooled shooting, rather than the first single-pellet shot.

It's confusing