The option to let us rescue Solaris has just made the Tenno more morally questionable

[Aldain]

Why are so many people almost desperate for the Tenno to be either morally grey or evil?

Seriously, its one thing to have a head-cannon but I swear some people are literally DROOLING over anything that can paint the Tenno in a bad light.

[Caidezes]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Why are so many people almost desperate for the Tenno to be either morally grey or evil?

Seriously, its one thing to have a head-cannon but I swear some people are literally DROOLING over anything that can paint the Tenno in a bad light.

Because the game has never once told or shown us the Tenno are selfless heroes. As stated several times now, the tutorial itself sets the tone by letting us abandon an objective and leave instead of helping people.

And that doesn't suddenly make the faction evil. Just means they have other things to do. The Tenno are pretty neutral overall.

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

Why are so many people almost desperate for the Tenno to be either morally grey or evil?

Seriously, its one thing to have a head-cannon but I swear some people are literally DROOLING over anything that can paint the Tenno in a bad light.

Why does it bother you so much that some people see the actions of the Tenno as being much less than heroic? Is it that somehow you interpret this analysis of the Tenno as morally deficient as a criticism of yourself or something you like?

[Autongnosis]

Wait tenno weren't morally questionable at any point? I missed that. We're engines of genocide, bringing some semblance of balance through senseless extermination...

[SneakyErvin]

The Solaris plebs should simply "git gud" and not get captured in the first place.

[Gwenriss]

Well most tenno spend their day cutting people in half/bashing their heads/shooting them... We can say morality is kind of over rated (wihout even talking about the facts that most tenno must have seen things that would leave most of us in... complicated state of mind).

[AltheusVI]

You think we're the good guys? That's a joke, we slaughter as we please across the system, we will work for anybody if the price is right.

We're traumatised child soldiers and sometime mercenaries.

[notlamprey]

Huh. I'm glad I read this thread, because it all seems like the opposite of what I want to be encountering all the time during an average play session.

I don't mind certain moral choices being presented as major plot points during quests or one-off story elements, but something about the idea of being hit with the moral question of rescuing Solaris constantly...

...it lands wrong on my brain somehow. If I were to press down my brain's attempt to engage the question, I'd be deliberately creating inhibitory gating against a more general response than what this specific game situation evokes. I mean, maybe deliberately forcing myself not to care against my normal impulse won't mess my brain up in any noticeable unexpected ways but I don't think I care to try and find out.

Not knowing anything about how this new stuff plays out in practice, it all sounds like the kind of thing I'd rather not touch.

[Jarriaga]

20 hours ago, Zahnny said:

Yeah...This isn't entirely a good look. If that was the intent of adding some moral ambiguity to the Tenno then, fair enough. But it kinda paints an awful picture of the Tenno.

I mean, what kind of behavior do you expect for a Tenno with this alignment to have?

20 hours ago, Katinka said:

I'm puzzled why I need to spend a coin at all when the guy shouts "The switch is over there!".  Maybe we should have an option to free them without spending coins for 0 standing?  I'm really not sure why we get different amounts for the different coins anyway.  Is it not spent?  Is it instead donated to the guy who may then have a better chance at survival if we gave him a better coin?  I just don't get it.

Just thought about how a rescue mission must look, running past all these guys like "Not you!".

That effectively means no moral choice at all if there are little to no consequences or a significant price to pay for such a painless choice.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Jarriaga

[Zahnny]

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

I mean, what kind of behavior do you expect for a Tenno with this alignment to have?

Depends how you view the alignment. I don't subscribe to the idea of it being a moral compass or good/evil morality.

[Jarriaga]

15 minutes ago, Zahnny said:

Depends how you view the alignment. I don't subscribe to the idea of it being a moral compass or good/evil morality.

Well, considering the options that you need to select in order to get that alignment, if you're not evil you are at the very least extremely cold, detached and pragmatic to the point you have little to no humanity.

"You're from Fortuna and there are 4 of you here? You will die at your line of work or be shelved anyway, so no point in saving you here and prolong the inevitable. I'll use this coin to get more weapons to help other people in needed. Greater good."

That kind of thinking.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Jarriaga

[akots]

There are a lot of Solaris people, their whole economy runs on debt bonds and there is no way to save them all. You are not going to buy all the bonds from Ticker every time you have a single credit? For moral purposes, you can consider these captives as being transferred on the ship from one place of indentured servitude to another location. Nothing bad is going to happen to them if you don't save them, they just have to work their way out of debt like any other indebted Solaris. This is their way of life and if looking for a positive here, consider it as another higher grounds Tenno can take over Neff. Meanwhile, Tenno can enjoy the luxurious accommodations in their orbiters and lounges in relays and dojos and various advanced weaponry. Should not all of this be selflessly sacrificed to  free Solaris?

Now, the kuva lich slavery trading is another sad relevant story.

[nslay]

Yeah... I mean, can't we just phone Eudico to hack the locks on those prisoners? I'm sure she could do it without needing Granum Crowns! Just make it a mobile defense objective...

[(PSN)goonie4good]

*looks at faction kill counts in stats menu*

wonders who the bad guys actually are 😅

[(PSN)reddragonhrcro]

5 hours ago, Caidezes said:

Because the game has never once told or shown us the Tenno are selfless heroes. As stated several times now, the tutorial itself sets the tone by letting us abandon an objective and leave instead of helping people.

And that doesn't suddenly make the faction evil. Just means they have other things to do. The Tenno are pretty neutral overall.

Wrong, there are several cases, couple of which can be found in the leverian.

[Loza03]

38 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Well, considering the options that you need to select in order to get that alignment, if you're not evil you are at the very least extremely cold, detached and pragmatic to the point you have little to no humanity.

"You're from Fortuna and there are 4 of you here? You will die at your line of work or be shelved anyway, so no point in saving you here and prolong the inevitable. I'll use this coin to get more weapons to help other people in needed. Greater good."

That kind of thinking.

Would you call someone who's sadistic and cruel, who is motivated by vengeance and rage a good guy? The one who's willing to risk the survival of a major threat, just to prolong their suffering?

Because that's what pure Sun looks like, on the alignment chart. 

 

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Would you call someone who's sadistic and cruel, who is motivated by vengeance and rage a good guy? The one who's willing to risk the survival of a major threat, just to prolong their suffering?

Because that's what pure Sun looks like, on the alignment chart. 

 

No, I would not say that someone who is drunk on their own self-righteousness is a good guy either. 

This is why the idea of a "Good" Tenno is not true from a lore and gameplay perspective outside player preference and self-projection. None of the actual in-game choices reflect that. 

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, Jarriaga said:

No, I would not say that someone who is drunk on their own self-righteousness is a good guy either. 

This is why the idea of a "Good" Tenno is not true from a lore and gameplay perspective outside player preference and self-projection. None of the actual in-game choices reflect that. 

Well, I would call out the third option - neutral. Which appears to be more 'let others decide' - championing self-determination for themselves and others.

 

They control the void, instead of letting it define them.

They give Teshin the decision of what to do with the Kuva.

They defer the fate of the Mycona to the person who it matters most to - Neewa.

They advise Umbra not to let rage control them.

They Lotus line they choose is 'Dream, not of what you are, but of what you want to be.'

 

Given that 'balance' is a theme in Warframe, it makes sense that the balanced, neutral path is the one that is the most moral - not sadistic, but not psychopathic either.

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Well, I would call out the third option - neutral. Which appears to be more 'let others decide' - championing self-determination for themselves and others.

 

They control the void, instead of letting it define them.

They give Teshin the decision of what to do with the Kuva.

They defer the fate of the Mycona to the person who it matters most to - Neewa.

They advise Umbra not to let rage control them.

They Lotus line they choose is 'Dream, not of what you are, but of what you want to be.'

 

Given that 'balance' is a theme in Warframe, it makes sense that the balanced, neutral path is the one that is the most moral - not sadistic, but not psychopathic either.

But if we go by letting others decide, the Lotus encourages you to abandon a colony at the very beginning of the game.

It's still a no-win situation. 

[Loza03]

Just now, Jarriaga said:

But if we go by letting others decide, the Lotus encourages you to abandon a colony at the very beginning of the game.

It's still a no-win situation. 

It's defined by self-determination. They only defer when other people's fates are affected, and they would otherwise not have a say. Other people aren't affected by how they choose to handle the void, or what Lotus line they reminisce of, and they are perfectly happy making those choices.

Likewise, when there is no opportunity to defer the decision to the people who matter, then it falls to the choice that gives those colonist the most choice in their future - keeping them alive and/or unenslaved. 

[stormy505]

We were designed to help the orokin but we committed mass genocide on their asses instead. We are child soldiers. We kill MILLIONS of people every day. We burn, freeze, weaponize disease, and everything in between all because we have some SERIOUS mommy issues.

I don't get why some people think we are the good guys in this story. If you strap a child to a weapon of mass destruction, it doesn't stop being a weapon of mass destruction.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

I guess Goku is evil as well since he kills all of his enemies. You want the Tenno to act like Steven?

We're not killing civilians like crazy, y'all acting like we arrived in Cetus and murdered everyone there. If you want your Tenno to be evil then project that into him/her cause the game doesn't have a evil or good system like Infamous or Dishonored

[Magus_Tahir]

Tenno fall into one of three moral subsects Altruistic, Indifferent, or Selfish with varying degrees of overlap and its small wonder considering how they came to be and the world they are from. This thread comes across as quite quirky to me. As a being capable of slaughter and does so regularly having been trained to be soldiers the Tenno have some willpower and mental resilience whether we do in real life or not.

I guess it just boils down to how you see yourself as the Tenno.  As for me I choose not to apply the morality of the real world in my fantasy experiences, because I know its not real and the context is entirely different even if it parallels reality. And the truth is one day it will all turn to ash. The Aztecs sacrificed thousands because they believed that blood was needed to keep Huitzilopochtli the sun god alive and fighting off the moon and stars to keep them from destroying the earth. Barbaric to most of us today but then it was normal and accepted beyond doubt. I guess the point I am trying to make in all of this that if moral ambiguity in a video game unsettles one in real life so much then there is some growing that needs to happen both in mind and spirit.

P.s. I actually went and looked at my little so called alignment meter so see where it was and found a rather striking visual occurrence in my color choices for my main Frame and my Operator. It gets even funnier when you consider my prefered Dungeons and Dragons alignments is Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good. 

Spoiler

 

 

[Loza03]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)C11H22O11 said:

I guess Goku is evil as well since he kills all of his enemies. You want the Tenno to act like Steven?

'All'?

Goku's killed, like, 2. One reincarnated, and he tried pretty damn hard to spare the other (King Piccolo and Frieza). 90% of the main cast has tried to kill and/or been an antagonist to Goku at least once. Dude's a friendship machine.

EDIT: an argument could be made for Buu, but it's questionable since he only killed half of Buu.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Loza03
If I had a Zenny for every time I killed an enemy and they reincarnated as somebody I fought in a Budokai Tenkaichi, I'd have two Zenny. Which isn't a lot, but it's strange that it happened twice.

[Aldain]

9 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

an argument could be made for Buu, but it's questionable since he only killed half of Buu.

Depends on if the reincarnation card counts for that one too or not.