Warframe isn't meant to be "challenging".

[Corvid]

1 minute ago, IceColdHawk said:

Last I checked, DE doesn't restrict their players from paying attention to their surroundings.

 

On 2020-07-03 at 8:05 PM, Corvid said:

Warframe's problem is that most of its "threats" come from hitscan, homing and AOE attacks, which often come out without warning, from enemies that don't have a notably different silhouette from their peers.

 

[Felsagger]

waaaait..

The enemy should not warn me at all. Surprise attacks makes the game more interesting. Why enemies should announce their presence and telegraph their attack? 

[IceColdHawk]

On 2020-07-03 at 9:05 PM, Corvid said:

OK, pray tell, what exactly am I supposed to learn about an ancient spawning right behind me and immediately downing me with Toxic Screech?

That doesn't happen. If anything, an enemy spawned waaay behind you and made it's way to you and then it's your fault for not paying attention and covering your back.

On 2020-07-03 at 9:05 PM, Corvid said:

Warframe's problem is that most of its "threats" come from hitscan, homing and AOE attacks, which often come out without warning, from enemies that don't have a notably different silhouette from their peers.

Not sure what that's supposed to mean because i can definitely tell the difference between a bombard and a heavy gunner. Bombard is also the largest unit in the group of lancers. Pretty sure that infesteds all look very different too and Corpus Techs should be easily detected as well with their bright red color and size again.

And if every kind of vision fails for whatever reason, there's still audio telling you whenever a Supra goes full madness or when missiles are being launched. The game gives more than enough warnings.

[Corvid]

34 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

That doesn't happen.

I've literally had an enemy show up on my radar right behind me and do this. I wouldn't bring it up if that hadn't happened.

Regardless, if you can't see the issue then there's nothing I can do to explain it. I'm not the most mechanically articulate person on the forums.

[Xaero]

5 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Thats not what I said. I said frames shouldn't be "too similar".

But they should all nuke or at least support the nukers. Otherwise, how do you make them relevant in a game where the whole point is killing hordes of enemies in a blink of an eye?

[Nichivo]

 

On 2020-07-03 at 2:05 PM, Corvid said:

 Warframe's problem is that most of its "threats" come from hitscan, homing and AOE attacks, which often come out without warning, from enemies that don't have a notably different silhouette from their peers.

Lucky for everyone, as myself, and others have pointed out. That doesn't actually happen. It may seem like it does, if you are oblivious to your surroundings, and enemy animations.

 A players failure to know the enemy, and prioritize the greatest threats, while maintaining optimal positioning. Is not something I feel DE should balance for.

7 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Last I checked, DE doesn't restrict their players from paying attention to their surroundings.

^ See not just me saying this.

[Danielw8]

At this moment July of 2020 the entire videogame is designed to be ultra casual, and sometimes this means boring.

Warframe need new bosses, new mechanics, new challenges, new rewards worth to farm, and new content should be for endgame people who already burned hundred of formas, rivens, kuva everything around to max the damage output

Just saying killing corrupted grinners like bombards or heavy gunners, or even demolyst nox or the others demolyst grineers with "very high hp and armor"  lvl 1200 with orvius feels like ... good because we can use whatever to kill whatever, but bad because you actually not need discorver secrets, weapons and test new gear to kill those "stronger" enemies... simulacrum at this moment its pretty much a joke since you not need to do nothing special to kill those enemies

Im hyped of hard mode, and i hate when people say "bullet sponge" the new gamemode, i repeat you have the entire videogame for you right now, if you dont know how boost your damage, or what stype of weapon or build you need against X enemy, or warframe/weapons synergy, you will learn it later and you will be forced to learn it to do decent times in new hard mode because i understeand very well right now, you can do whatever and play whatever

I hope they make even more stronger enemies and bosses in hardmode with new mechanics. Actually i want get some stress and fail the mission, and think what im doing wrong? how can i do this?

If you want an unpopular opinion, Hard mode should scale like crazy (in endless) with hyenas or these special enemies, and in 1 hour you should die/and fail the mission make the mission super hard full of nullifier, energy drain or whatever else, where you need 4 active people to continue. Something like at wave 30/40 of defense enemies are 50 hyena, 50 juggernaut or whatever else

 because at this moment at endless missions we are almost afk, you can prepare a coffe, smoke a cigarrette, watch youtube (how many people in warframe have a second monitor and watch videos there because the game is not intense/boring)

Dont get me wrong guys, i came from dota2 i usually play competitive videogames and i came here to chill, but this is too way much, there is not hard mission in warframe, so stop being egoistic/selfish (i dont know exactly the word im use google translate)  and let people who farmed 1million or 2million kuva, and wasted 500 or 600 formas in gear get some fun and challenge, because i repeat at this moment the entire videogame its designed for casuals

 

[Felsagger]

6 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

At this moment July of 2020 the entire videogame is designed to be ultra casual, and sometimes this means boring.

Completely true. 

Moreover the game is designed for mentally impaired people. There is nothing wrong designing a game available to everybody. The problem is that there is no challenge for more mentally capable players. The difficulty standard is way too low. This almost resembles GAAS F2P portable phone game standards. 

There are instances that game feels like a sleeping pill for insomnia or become a therapy for a stress release after work. After certain proper mastery of the game it becomes easy mode all the way. Takes zero intelligence to copy and paste builds in the net. Takes zero intelligence reading the wiki pages for certain quests and goals in the game. Everything is given in the game even the Kurias and the hidden captura scenes in the Jupiter tile set. 

 

6 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

Warframe need new bosses, new mechanics, new challenges, new rewards worth to farm, and new content should be for endgame people who already burned hundred of formas, rivens, kuva everything around to max the damage output.

I've been saying this for years. What I receive here? Forks, knives, rocks, punches, headlocks, pipe hits, insults, snide, bullying, etc. You name it. 

6 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

 I hope they make even more stronger enemies and bosses in hardmode with new mechanics

Sadly that's not going to happen unless DE sees a significant reduction of players or 'savage' migrations towards other games. 

[Lullypumpsie]

For me, a VERY rare loot, like Tenebros Ephemera at the start, would be an acceptable “challenge”. But, in this case, our players usually scream and complain that the drop chance is too small.

I like the game without any "challenges" today.

[Loza03]

11 hours ago, Xaero said:

But they should all nuke or at least support the nukers. Otherwise, how do you make them relevant in a game where the whole point is killing hordes of enemies in a blink of an eye?

Playstyle diversity cannot exist whilst the game is only killing hordes of enemies in the blink of an eye. There has to be more to the gameplay - so long as a mode only requires ones gameplay style to be successful, then naturally, only that style will ever be relevant. 

Don't get me wrong, killing hordes of enemies quickly can, and probably should still be a big part of the game, but so long as the whole point is just that, then the meaningful variety that DE and the playerbase seems to seek won't ever materialise.

[Lutesque]

On 2020-07-03 at 6:58 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

6) I feel like its worth noting that even "challenging" games like dark souls or the new DOOM games or halo on legendary or whatever other game you want to throw down are meant to be fair and winnable... meaning that guess what, if you actually know how to play the game, they aren't that difficult anymore. 

This is the only thing I disagree with... Specifically regarding Doom... Knowing how to play any game naturally means you are going to have an easier time but this doesnt automatically make the game easy... there is still Challenge in applying Knowledge not matter how many times you do it or how well you know the process... Just ask any Surgeon... that S#&$ is hard... you get used to it and can do it in your sleep but that still works...

Dark Souls only feels like its not Challenging anymore when you actually know how to play because in Dark Souls Death = Challenge...  The game is built from the ground up to kill or damage with bull S#&$ that just comes out of no where... Naturally as someone who plays a Variety of different games I didnt find this challenging... it was merely Cheap... however not everyone knows this distinction and so Back to Back death's gives them the Impression that Dark Souls is hard.... even though they arent really applying any more Effort than Any other Game...

now Sekiro Shadows Die Twice... That was a Challenge 😄 hoping for a Sequel. !!!

On 2020-07-03 at 6:58 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

It takes them months if not years to rework ONE FRAME. But reworking weapon balance, survivability, abilities, ai, map design, without just nerfing half the game into the ground, is a monumental ask.

Yes... trying to Fix something that was built on a rocky foundation is Definitely hard... Who Knew... And DE keeps releasing stuff that Require certain Frames to get Reworked... Steel Path is just going to be more of the same...

[Xaero]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Playstyle diversity cannot exist whilst the game is only killing hordes of enemies in the blink of an eye. There has to be more to the gameplay - so long as a mode only requires ones gameplay style to be successful, then naturally, only that style will ever be relevant. 

Don't get me wrong, killing hordes of enemies quickly can, and probably should still be a big part of the game, but so long as the whole point is just that, then the meaningful variety that DE and the playerbase seems to seek won't ever materialise.

Exactly.

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

On 2020-07-03 at 6:06 PM, (XB1)ONI Prowess said:

its an ARPG like diablo or path of exile, the point IS to clear massive amounts of mobs of mobs in the blink of an eye.

if you want to spend 15 minutes clearing a room play destiny, if you want to spend half an hour clearing a room play the division. 

Thats the problem it seems lately like  a lot of the newer players, especially the more vocal ones asking for this as we as various nerfs have come from those games you mentioned...

[CrimsonXX]

16 hours ago, Danielw8 said:

Warframe need new bosses, new mechanics, new challenges, new rewards worth to farm, and new content should be for endgame people who already burned hundred of formas, rivens, kuva everything around to max the damage output

 

Um, no to specifically the bolded part. If anything it should be a balanced approach and not aimed at the "punish me more" tryhards leaving everyone else behind exclusively.

----------------------
Not at the quoted but towards the overall thread in general: While there should be some challenge, never imo should it go back to how it was when I joined (7 or so years ago). That being where I came very close to dropping it after getting killed multiple times in the tutorial (at the time) mission and even after that for a good amount of time. Even more so as a solo player. I play this game to have fun, not get enraged by things like the original version of Mutalist Ospreys or get locked in place by original Bursa's. If I wanted the enraged aspect I'd go back and load my now almost year's worth of metaphorical dust-covered file of Nioh. I for the most part agree with OP, especially with the idea that it'll never be fully good enough, just good for the time till its figured out.

[Nichivo]

2 hours ago, CrimsonXX said:

Um, no to specifically the bolded part. If anything it should be a balanced approach and not aimed at the "punish me more" tryhards leaving everyone else behind exclusively.

----------------------
Not at the quoted but towards the overall thread in general: While there should be some challenge, never imo should it go back to how it was when I joined (7 or so years ago). That being where I came very close to dropping it after getting killed multiple times in the tutorial (at the time) mission and even after that for a good amount of time. Even more so as a solo player. I play this game to have fun, not get enraged by things like the original version of Mutalist Ospreys or get locked in place by original Bursa's. If I wanted the enraged aspect I'd go back and load my now almost year's worth of metaphorical dust-covered file of Nioh. I for the most part agree with OP, especially with the idea that it'll never be fully good enough, just good for the time till its figured out.

I can't agree with this at all. There is no reason to not allow 1% of the game to cater to the 1% player base. I also can't agree with your reasoning below because that my friend is the game people founded, and that some of us whom missed that chance have supported generously with cash, even when we didn't need anything because we love DE, and warframe. 

That is the Warframe that started this snowball of success. Not this watered down Namby pamby cater all content to 100% of all players. That is a recipe for disaster. Haven't you ever heard the expression, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time."?

[-Krism-]

On 2020-07-06 at 12:09 AM, IceColdHawk said:

That doesn't happen.

On 2020-07-06 at 12:46 AM, Corvid said:

I've literally had an enemy show up on my radar right behind me and do this. I wouldn't bring it up if that hadn't happened.

Can confirm, some maps have very buggy spawn points

Like Lua for exemple, going through a door will sometimes make tons of enemies spawn in the room you just left. While others will spawn because there's a small plant between you & the spawn point

[CrimsonXX]

17 hours ago, Nichivo said:

I can't agree with this at all. There is no reason to not allow 1% of the game to cater to the 1% player base. I also can't agree with your reasoning below because that my friend is the game people founded, and that some of us whom missed that chance have supported generously with cash, even when we didn't need anything because we love DE, and warframe. 

That is the Warframe that started this snowball of success. Not this watered down Namby pamby cater all content to 100% of all players. That is a recipe for disaster. Haven't you ever heard the expression, "You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time."?

I have no issue with something like Steel Path, that's set aside in an entire other mode for that 1%. I take issue with the idea that all of the game should be made for those people or that anything going forward should be done that way. I have no issue with the difficulty being raised to a degree, just not to the ridiculous level of either Dark Souls or to even previous WF version that some seem so nostalgic for.

Also do you think you're the only ones that have put cash into the game? I've put my fair share in, so don't even try to act like that's a factor or something that puts you on a higher ground metaphorically speaking.

Um no, what led to Warframe's success was its style, its evolving over time, and being frank being f2p (for the most part). Catering to 1% isn't exactly a sound strategy either, especially considering how that segment of people is NEVER happy. Content is put out, they rush through it and go right back to whining cause THEY chose to rush it. If anything where DE screwed up was spending time trying to find "endgame" or "difficult" content. Before they just put out whatever new interesting thing without any focus on the "difficulty", then they started trying to figure out something in that vein and got lost in the rabbit hole that will never end cause that section of people will never be happy. I'll take a fun and unique game via mixed genres over a Dark Souls wannabe that for a time appeases the "punish me more" S&M crowd.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2020-07-04 at 12:58 AM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I dont think warframe will *ever* be "challenging" the way some people on this forum want it to be and I think certain groups of people don't get it.

You're right, Warframe is not designed to be a "challenging" game, and trying to make it so would alter too much of what makes it Warframe. Games where the player overcomes overwhelming odds and prevails to a hard-won victory through skill and determination (my definition of a challenging game) are a ton of fun, but Warframe just isn't that. It has parts of it that challenge your understanding and knowledge of the game, and that reward creative solutions and synergies, but it is not the slog that say, Dark Souls is, and that would be way too far for Warframe to reach. At least outside of a couple feature modes or missions, anyway.

However, there is a good deal of sense in people asking for challenge. I think the core of the issue is that people don't want this game to be the complete opposite of challenging: effortless. If we can stand in one spot and push a couple of buttons to satisfy the win condition of an elite mission with virtually no chance of failure, then why bother? A effortless victory does't feel earned or satisfying. You could just as easily chalk it up to our own ability as you could chalk it up to weak enemies and an insanely low bar to clear.

How I synthesize this, and how I hope to offer a better talking point than "challenge/no challenge", is this: I believe Warframe should compel action. Warframe is fast, mobile, colorful, exciting and busy. And it should work to inspire these concepts in its players. I think what some (not all) people mean when they say "I want challenge", is "I want this game not to feel effortless, and to instead deliver a high-action experience". It doesn't have to be a hard uphill slog, but it needs to make the player do stuff. Active combat.

[(PSN)Touha9]

2 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You're right, Warframe is not designed to be a "challenging" game, and trying to make it so would alter too much of what makes it Warframe. Games where the player overcomes overwhelming odds and prevails to a hard-won victory through skill and determination (my definition of a challenging game) are a ton of fun, but Warframe just isn't that. It has parts of it that challenge your understanding and knowledge of the game, and that reward creative solutions and synergies, but it is not the slog that say, Dark Souls is, and that would be way too far for Warframe to reach. At least outside of a couple feature modes or missions, anyway.

However, there is a good deal of sense in people asking for challenge. I think the core of the issue is that people don't want this game to be the complete opposite of challenging: effortless. If we can stand in one spot and push a couple of buttons to satisfy the win condition of an elite mission with virtually no chance of failure, then why bother? A effortless victory does't feel earned or satisfying. You could just as easily chalk it up to our own ability as you could chalk it up to weak enemies and an insanely low bar to clear.

How I synthesize this, and how I hope to offer a better talking point than "challenge/no challenge", is this: I believe Warframe should compel action. Warframe is fast, mobile, colorful, exciting and busy. And it should work to inspire these concepts in its players. I think what some (not all) people mean when they say "I want challenge", is "I want this game not to feel effortless, and to instead deliver a high-action experience". It doesn't have to be a hard uphill slog, but it needs to make the player do stuff. Active combat.

This is a great post and great distinction.

Warframe, even the Steel Path, is not necessarily "challenging" in the way that games like Dark Souls, etc. are.  Nor should it be!  The game is not meant to be "challenging" in this way.  It all depends on how one defines "challenge". 

The key thing Warframe should aspire to is "Active combat" as you said....or combat that requires player engagement and focus/attention....combat where you will suffer and you will die if you are not focusing and paying attention, managing and dealing with various enemies, variables, etc....You still can and will kill things fast (or slightly less fast in Steel Path) but you have to be mindful and engaged.

[Loza03]

7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

You're right, Warframe is not designed to be a "challenging" game, and trying to make it so would alter too much of what makes it Warframe. Games where the player overcomes overwhelming odds and prevails to a hard-won victory through skill and determination (my definition of a challenging game) are a ton of fun, but Warframe just isn't that. It has parts of it that challenge your understanding and knowledge of the game, and that reward creative solutions and synergies, but it is not the slog that say, Dark Souls is, and that would be way too far for Warframe to reach. At least outside of a couple feature modes or missions, anyway.

However, there is a good deal of sense in people asking for challenge. I think the core of the issue is that people don't want this game to be the complete opposite of challenging: effortless. If we can stand in one spot and push a couple of buttons to satisfy the win condition of an elite mission with virtually no chance of failure, then why bother? A effortless victory does't feel earned or satisfying. You could just as easily chalk it up to our own ability as you could chalk it up to weak enemies and an insanely low bar to clear.

How I synthesize this, and how I hope to offer a better talking point than "challenge/no challenge", is this: I believe Warframe should compel action. Warframe is fast, mobile, colorful, exciting and busy. And it should work to inspire these concepts in its players. I think what some (not all) people mean when they say "I want challenge", is "I want this game not to feel effortless, and to instead deliver a high-action experience". It doesn't have to be a hard uphill slog, but it needs to make the player do stuff. Active combat.

Agreed with this on pretty much all accounts.

Challenge, to me, is nothing more than a means to an end to the game having more engaging content.

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

I think the grind is all the challenge this games needs. That’s the challenge is getting the stuff you want with out paying for it.

[Kimimoto]

On 2020-07-03 at 12:58 PM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

I think certain groups of people don't get it.

I think you're in that group

[DrivaMain]

Yes warframe isn’t meant to be challenging in the first place because casuals are the huge majority, BUT it’s not a game that requires near to zero effort to do like those cookie clicker games. What players want is content to be engaging not another AFK simulator.

There is a reason why Corpus is my favorite faction. It has so many units with interesting mechanics that requires me to pay attention to my surroundings and they never made me fallen asleep in a long endless run + it doesn’t have cheap tactics like status immunity or warframe ability immunity that limits loadout variety.
 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, DrivaMain said:

There is a reason why Corpus is my favorite faction. It has so many units with interesting mechanics that requires me to pay attention to my surroundings and they never made me fallen asleep in a long endless run + it has doesn’t have cheap tactics like status immunity or warframe ability immunity that limits loadout variety.

Well, the baseline versions don't. I've been a vocal defender of Nullifiers. Some of the newer enemies with nullification abilities, less so. In fact, I'd go so far as to say Nullifiers are a good example of Warframe enemy design, provided they're used in moderation.

• They have good telegraphing - they have a very clearly defined area of effect, which also broadcasts their exact location. It's pretty hard for them to sneak up on you, especially over time as Warframe's trended towards larger areas and thus, longer sightlines. They're also slow and have simple AI even by Warframe standards, meaning they're extremely easy to predict.
• They themselves are very squishy, and their shields are easy to deal with. In isolation, a nullifier is quite frankly a non-issue. They become an issue once other 'game pieces' are on the field, as any good game piece should be.
• They have a wealth of counterplay options. There's of course the little drone on top (which, my only real complaint is that drone is hard to hit at times. Increasing its hitbox or ensuring it always faces the nearest player might be good?), but you can also shrink the bubble with high fire rates or just kill the Nullifier itself. Your decision will be based on your loadout and what the nully is accompanied with.
•  This is, of course, all weighed against the fact that they protect anything inside their bubble from both gunfire and abilities, giving them one of the most powerful abilities on the battlefield.

Good design, all told. There are other nullifying enemies that I take issue with, but all of those mess with these principles - Isolator Bursa's nullifying grenade can be fired off-screen, meaning you have no idea if they've used it or predict what areas are no-go, OV Shield Drones project the shield to other enemies obfuscating their own locations (and it doesn't help that they share a model with other enemies...). 

 

In my book, The more significant an enemy's ability or attack is, the easier it should be to see and counter, and vice versa. Since nullifiers have one of the strongest abilities, shutting down a large portion of the players toolkit entirely, they should be easily dealt with using the remainder of the toolkit by an attentive player.

[doominator10]

On 2020-07-03 at 2:08 PM, Silvertap said:

IDK...

When i first played Warframe 3 years ago, i didn't know a thing about warframe, i got to MR11 with much effort and was very challenging and fun, specially because i was trying to play mainly solo. I remember Uranos been the planet that i had the most dificulty, man enemies where hard to kill and hited like a truck, i had to remake my builds and try to look for more knowledge. I enjoyed this memory very much and really would like that "Hard Mode" could bring me that back.

Also since Inaros Prime is comming, maybe that is the time to kill the bullet sponge, and remake him, in a effort to remove the cheese (IMO). 

I remember that first wall you hit, when you NEED to go look up guides for how to properly build when all of a sudden your weapons weren't cutting it anymore and you still did most missions solo because that's just the recommended way to go through the starchart the first time.

Then the Second Dream came out.

Those were some real good times.

 

2 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

What players want is content to be engaging not another AFK simulator.

I did a good chunk of Protea's quest just sitting still letting the Wisp shock mote kill the lvl 17 enemies with the dialogue playing in the bg. I stopped playing for about a month after that and started playing Doom E: and MHW instead.