Leqesai Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 25 minutes ago, DrivaMain said: But apparently “some people” willing to spend their life savings on them. Oh I dunno about that... Seems a little dramatic. I don't speak for everyone else but I have a good job and make plenty of money. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have enough expendable income to buy lots of plat and stuff. Personally I have never had an issue dropping 50-200 bucks a month on Warframe to promote my favorite game. In the last year or so I think I've spent less but this is largely because I can't fully support some of the design decisions and poor communication/PR on DE's side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 9 hours ago, Leqesai said: If the current transfer system is what we'd be using then I would never opt in for swapping. I transfered my account to Switch when it released and I lost probably 50K worth of rivens, arcanes and other PC-exclusive stuff. Not to mention the hundreds of dollars worth of tennogen... Yeah... If they do transferring or cross save or something it needs to not screw people over. Very true. But that's something that they should be able to take care of tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandeloreon Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 I understand that cross-progression has been a hot topic right next to cross-play. I have a general idea as to a way to implement this without necessarily breaking a programmers back so to speak. The Simple outline... Cross-progression should be released first. Cross-progression should work a lot like account migration initially. This is important since a user must let DE Know where to get the save data from. There is a lot of steps to get the progression transfer working for end users. Most of these steps are verification(s) to ensure that the account linking is valid, and to prevent item theft. Accounts involved in prior account migrations need extra care. Accounts that have never been involved in prior account migrations can be merged using a simple merge. Each platform has it's own universe. The universes are as follows... PC PS4/PS5 Xbox One and newer xbox consoles nintendo switch Cross-play - Access to this universe requires users to enable Cross progression, and unlock the starchart with an in-game quest line. Cross-play should use it's own star chart. Luckily most in-game quests should not be broken by this change. A more drawn out outline that I know is incomplete. However, I believe the general idea gets across here. Spoiler Start an event replay series to allow programmers some time to work on a larger project without worry. The large Project is Merging all warframe Code Bases into one This stage is about minimizing the code differences between game platforms as much as possible. This stage includes the following changes. Implementing the new DTLS Branch on all platforms. Nat Traversal issues are the bane of any online game. Implement in-game user defined pin for item trading and store purchases. This will help reduce some support problems caused by casual account compromises caused by automatic logins. A good example of this is to look at how pin codes are used in phantasy star online 2. Split the in-game user save data into four main pools... Long-term Warframe Data- This is in game progress where all platforms can read/write here without any corruption problems. Exclusive warframe Data - This is for the per-platform exclusive Items that cannot be acquired anywhere else. Bleeding edge PC Data - Absolutely bleeding edge here. This covers events and other data that is currently not unlocked on the consoles. Warframe Bleeding Edge console profile - This is where progress is saved that may not be available regardless of platform. After all sometimes one platform may be a little behind the others. Expand the User Data so that the Core data that tends to not be migrated is kept per platform. Some examples of this are as follows... Combined Statistics per-platform platinum totals. Combined currency total(s) (for market purchases) Per-Platform Statistics - Sometimes a user favors one frame over another on PC verses xbox. Per-Platform Clans Per-Platform Hunted Per-Platform Syndicate standings Per-Platform loadouts. Completed Quests are globally in progress Quests (This includes quest replays) are stored per-platform. in-game boosters (shared) Website changes Allow users to merge the Warframe (console account) in to the Warframe PC Account on Forum. Simplify the account management ( https://www.warframe.com/user ) for linking the PC to console accounts. In general a single PC account can have a link to every released platform, but the individual console accounts cannot link to multiple pc accounts. Update forum profiles to allow players to allow users to hide the console username on a per platform basis. An example would be a user may want to hide that they also play on the PC, but actively want to show off that they play on the xbox. First stage of introducing Cross-platform Saves (PC and XBox) Add per-store automatic login to warframe. The end result is that launching warframe from either steam or epic games store will look a lot like what you see on the xbox after the user properly links their warframe account to either epic games or steam user account. release Warframe on the Windows 10 Store under Xbox Play Anywhere ( see: https://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/xbox-play-anywhere ). This version of warframe will use the save data from xbox and let users play on the pc. The ultimate goal of this version is to ensure that in-game progress does not have any problems going between pc/console. Add in-game validation of account linking a pc account to console account. Add in-game fast track transfer to allow new console user to import the pc progress by logging in using pc credentials, and performing two factor authentication. General PC-Console account merging procedure... Link account on website wait until the regularly scheduled account migration/merger script runs. This can be done at regular intervals. I expect the number of accounts requiring this to drastically reduce over time. The general result of this script is as follows... Flags both accounts for backup. This is a hard restore point that customer service can use for account restoration in the event of catastrophic failure somewhere. Fill in the warframe PC Account link on the warframe xbox account. Fill in the warframe xbox Account link on the warframe pc account. Start warframe on the PC, and Login to the warframe pc account. The game will generate a large notification letting the user know that their account has cross-platform progression sharing being enabled. At this point the user is given a chance to either confirm or deny the merging. To complete the merge the user will need to enter their user defined pin for trades that they set on the pc account. If the user does not agree, The whole process is terminated at this stage, and a flag is set indicating a potential account compromise. If the User agrees to the merge, the initial cross platform progress will fill in with data from the PC Account. Exit out of warframe on pc. Sign into warframe on the xbox console. The game will provide a notification asking to verify that your wanting to link your Xbox account with your pc account. If the user does not agree, The process will stop here, and an account compromise flag will be raised on both accounts for further investigation. If the user does agree, The following steps are required... The user will be asked to confirm the user defined pin set on the xbox. Once this is confirmed, The user will be asked to login to warframe using the pc account, and complete the two factor authentication that is set on this account. The actual cross-platform progression merging will work a lot like the previous Account migrations. the improved inventory system that was added earlier should make this a lot easier. Platinum is only trade-able on the platform it is acquired. Other platforms can only use this platinum in the same fashion as the starter platinum you can from creating a new account. Second Stage Cross-platform saves ( Sony Playstation 4 and Nintendo Switch) This is essentially taking the lessons learned from the Xbox merging and reduce the work to introduce this on the other platforms. Also adding this feature on these remaining platforms should not pose huge problems since the main parts of the code that could cause problems where addressed in the previous stage ( hopefully). Actually introduce Cross-platform Play This is a large event, and could warrant the creation of a complete new universe. This new universe will have it's own alerts, events, and other stuff independently of the rest. The clear segmentation of in-game progress should make it possible to run this event on all platforms at the same time since there should be only minor changes in the in-game code to unlock this feature. The core of this feature is the new DTLS netcode system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eliohan Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 This is not a technical issue. It is all about the unwillingness of the respective companys who own the consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStormcrows Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 53 minutes ago, Eliohan said: This is not a technical issue. It is all about the unwillingness of the respective companys who own the consoles. IE: sony. Microsoft has already proven they want to implement crossplay between pc and xbox, both via the game-store on windows 10, xbox, (and even steam) Anybody that says any different is BSing you. At this point I think it's hopeless endeavour; additionally, I will never go back to console again until one of the involved parties comes to their senses. (& I love final fantasy... I'll wait out the year to play it on PC before I get another sony-exclusive product.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 vor einer Stunde schrieb Eliohan: This is not a technical issue. It is all about the unwillingness of the respective companys who own the consoles. Not wrong but also not quite right. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned DE also wouldn't do it if one console company would agree because it would be "unfair" towards players on other consoles. I remember that statement because it triggered me for various reasons. It conveniently shifts all the blame towards those "bad and ugly" console companies while DE can happily withdraw from any responsibility due to an unnecessary, self-imposed restriction. Personaly - and I'd like to think other people too - would be just glad to see if anything in that direction happened at all, no matter which platforms get connected. DE also knows that they'd have either to change their update process to match how it works on consoles or for consoles to make an exception for them despite other cross-feature games (Dead by Daylight, FF14 for example) being able to follow that process. Basically they'd have to release more polished and finished updates simultaniously on all connected platforms. Their update process right now - with a few exceptions - is to release a "beta" update on PC first, then fix it over the course of a few weeks while getting console builds ready and including some stuff of the fixes but not all (Lavos' 4 on consoles still doesn't has its area of damage fixed for example). DE currently updates in a way that if the console update comes out PC is already one or multiple new builds ahead. So even if all those baddies from those evil console companies would agree to cross-features DE currently doesn't even fulfill basic requirements needed for it such as a proper simultanious update schedule on all platforms. Again, other companies do manage to do that and in turn can offer cross-features. It's not magic to work it out with console companies apparently. So yeah, it's very convenient for DE that this half-truth still persists in people's heads. Again, it's not wrong that console companies are part of the problem but DE plays its own part in it too. There's a bit more to it (and I didn't even talk about other known or potential issues such as contracts in place, spaghetti code or NSW having the port developer inbetween, i think) than this slogan "consoles bad mkay" that keeps being mindlessly repeated each time this topic comes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Rez090 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 On 2021-02-01 at 11:16 PM, (XBOX)Architect Prime said: since I don't have to pay for Xbox live god to play free-to-play games anymore. You've never had to pay to play Warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandeloreon Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 6 hours ago, Eliohan said: This is not a technical issue. It is all about the unwillingness of the respective companys who own the consoles. This is not a problem anymore. Most of the work ( and delays) will probably rely on Digital Extremes making changes. 6 hours ago, TheStormcrows said: IE: sony. Microsoft has already proven they want to implement crossplay between pc and xbox, both via the game-store on windows 10, xbox, (and even steam) Anybody that says any different is BSing you. At this point I think it's hopeless endeavour; additionally, I will never go back to console again until one of the involved parties comes to their senses. (& I love final fantasy... I'll wait out the year to play it on PC before I get another sony-exclusive product.) From what I understand the console makers are not necessarily the blocker at this point. Most of the continued work is on the game developer now. 5 hours ago, (PSN)Deeceem said: Not wrong but also not quite right. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned DE also wouldn't do it if one console company would agree because it would be "unfair" towards players on other consoles. I remember that statement because it triggered me for various reasons. It conveniently shifts all the blame towards those "bad and ugly" console companies while DE can happily withdraw from any responsibility due to an unnecessary, self-imposed restriction. Personaly - and I'd like to think other people too - would be just glad to see if anything in that direction happened at all, no matter which platforms get connected. DE also knows that they'd have either to change their update process to match how it works on consoles or for consoles to make an exception for them despite other cross-feature games (Dead by Daylight, FF14 for example) being able to follow that process. Basically they'd have to release more polished and finished updates simultaniously on all connected platforms. Their update process right now - with a few exceptions - is to release a "beta" update on PC first, then fix it over the course of a few weeks while getting console builds ready and including some stuff of the fixes but not all (Lavos' 4 on consoles still doesn't has its area of damage fixed for example). DE currently updates in a way that if the console update comes out PC is already one or multiple new builds ahead. So even if all those baddies from those evil console companies would agree to cross-features DE currently doesn't even fulfill basic requirements needed for it such as a proper simultanious update schedule on all platforms. Again, other companies do manage to do that and in turn can offer cross-features. It's not magic to work it out with console companies apparently. So yeah, it's very convenient for DE that this half-truth still persists in people's heads. Again, it's not wrong that console companies are part of the problem but DE plays its own part in it too. There's a bit more to it (and I didn't even talk about other known or potential issues such as contracts in place, spaghetti code or NSW having the port developer inbetween, i think) than this slogan "consoles bad mkay" that keeps being mindlessly repeated each time this topic comes up. I think the current issue is entirely in DE's court now. All of the major game publishers and companies have got the message from consumers loud and clear. Consumers want games with full cross-save, and ideally this would include cross-play. However cross-play is not necessarily a requirement. A few big name company examples of cross-play (and cross-save) are below. Ubisoft - https://support.ubisoft.com/en-US/Article/000061177/CrossPlay-and-CrossProgression Epic Games - This developer clearly has cross-save (and cross-play ) in mind. Just look at Fortnite, Rocket League, and battle breakers as examples. Bungie - Moving towards cross-play. The first step for Destiny 2 is cross-save ( see: https://www.bungie.net/7/en/CrossSave ) Sega - Just look at Phantasy Star Online 2. In japan it has full cross-play between PS4, PC, Switch, and xbox. The game even has full cross-play between Xbox, PC ( Windows 10 store), and PC (Steam release) in North America. EA Games - The first major new release with cross-play being announced is here: https://www.ea.com/games/need-for-speed/need-for-speed-heat/news/need-for-speed-shifts-gears-into-the-future Microsoft - Just look at Xbox play anywhere ( https://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/xbox-play-anywhere ). Sure this is PC/Xbox only, but it is a clear message that Microsoft is open to both cross-play and cross save now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Deeceem Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 vor 15 Minuten schrieb dandeloreon: This is not a problem anymore. Most of the work ( and delays) will probably rely on Digital Extremes making changes. From what I understand the console makers are not necessarily the blocker at this point. Most of the continued work is on the game developer now. I think the current issue is entirely in DE's court now. All of the major game publishers and companies have got the message from consumers loud and clear. Consumers want games with full cross-save, and ideally this would include cross-play. However cross-play is not necessarily a requirement. A few big name company examples of cross-play (and cross-save) are below. Ubisoft - https://support.ubisoft.com/en-US/Article/000061177/CrossPlay-and-CrossProgression Epic Games - This developer clearly has cross-save (and cross-play ) in mind. Just look at Fortnite, Rocket League, and battle breakers as examples. Bungie - Moving towards cross-play. The first step for Destiny 2 is cross-save ( see: https://www.bungie.net/7/en/CrossSave ) Sega - Just look at Phantasy Star Online 2. In japan it has full cross-play between PS4, PC, Switch, and xbox. The game even has full cross-play between Xbox, PC ( Windows 10 store), and PC (Steam release) in North America. EA Games - The first major new release with cross-play being announced is here: https://www.ea.com/games/need-for-speed/need-for-speed-heat/news/need-for-speed-shifts-gears-into-the-future Microsoft - Just look at Xbox play anywhere ( https://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/xbox-play-anywhere ). Sure this is PC/Xbox only, but it is a clear message that Microsoft is open to both cross-play and cross save now. I don't know in whose court it is. To claim that somewhat confidently I'd have to work at DE and know most details. The point of my post was that it certainly also has to do with some things on DE's end and that the reason why it isn't a thing is more complicated than just because "console companies are bad". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandeloreon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 hours ago, (PSN)Deeceem said: I don't know in whose court it is. To claim that somewhat confidently I'd have to work at DE and know most details. The point of my post was that it certainly also has to do with some things on DE's end and that the reason why it isn't a thing is more complicated than just because "console companies are bad". My whole suggestion revolves around making Cross-progression ( aka cross-save) work a lot like an ongoing real-time account migration where the behavior works a lot like the account migrations of the past... Meaning the core Idea revolves around making the progress data a restricted two-way street where incompatible data is maintained on the platform it was originally earned. PC To PS4 Migration - https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200439684-PC-to-PS4-Account-Migration-CLOSED- PC To Xbox Migration - https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/202859924-PC-to-Xbox-One-Account-Migration-CLOSED- PC To Nintendo Switch Migration- https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019820532-PC-to-Nintendo-Switch-Account-Migration-CLOSED- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 10 hours ago, Eliohan said: This is not a technical issue. It is all about the unwillingness of the respective companys who own the consoles. Last year during a dev stream they had stated it was a challenge, and their choice words suggests that at the time it was literally one person working on it. They also brought up how some of them didn't consider working on implementing cross-save to be worth it, as it may not provide much of a return on their investment. DE is in it for profit just like anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kefirno Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Dunno about cross-console but PC-console crossplay will never happen because it'll require simultaneous updates. PC will always get major updates first to test them for bugs. Especially after 2077 oppsie when Sony and Microsoft made it clear that buggy unfinished mess isn't welcome on their platforms. Also DE are probably pretty paranoid about how it might affect plat economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandeloreon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 50 minutes ago, Yamazuki said: Last year during a dev stream they had stated it was a challenge, and their choice words suggests that at the time it was literally one person working on it. They also brought up how some of them didn't consider working on implementing cross-save to be worth it, as it may not provide much of a return on their investment. DE is in it for profit just like anyone else. Cross-Save (aka Cross-Progression) improves profits by allowing DE to reduce the number of servers required to host the game save data. It is a lot cheaper to main a single server than to have to manage four different servers ( One server per platform). 2 hours ago, Kefirno said: Dunno about cross-console but PC-console crossplay will never happen because it'll require simultaneous updates. PC will always get major updates first to test them for bugs. Especially after 2077 oppsie when Sony and Microsoft made it clear that buggy unfinished mess isn't welcome on their platforms. Also DE are probably pretty paranoid about how it might affect plat economy. Enabling Cross-play is fairly straight forward. The biggest changes are on the pc in that the game will ask the user if they want to load the game in Cross-play mode. If you launch the game in this mode the absolute bleeding edge content is not accessible, but you gain the ability to party up with your console friends. Most of the Platinum economy problems are from the PC having Discounted platinum. I figure a solution for this is to treat the existing platinum on the PC as "Free Platinum" when trading with the consoles. The next change on the PC would be to remove Discounted platinum and introduce discounted market purchases in it's place. A few days after the daily tribute changes go live on the pc, Any new platinum purchases on the pc can be traded on the consoles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 On 2021-02-03 at 8:26 AM, (XBOX)Rez090 said: You've never had to pay to play Warframe. Before, you had to pay for gold to get access to the multiplayer elements of games. Warframe purely solo would be a slowwwww burrrrrn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)thegarada Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 2021-02-02 at 12:38 AM, DrivaMain said: You forgot that each platform have different platinum economies. So it can get messy if it’s not pretty well handled. Can you imagine a group of “Rich” PC players can do to the console market? I think if we ever have cross save, platinum will be tied to platform it is earned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_R_o_g_u_e_ Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 2021-02-03 at 7:37 AM, DrivaMain said: But apparently “some people” willing to spend their life savings on them. It’s platinum, not dollars. You can buy 4200 platinum from DE for $50. That puts the conversation for a 15k riven at $160-200 dollars. If that’s your life savings, oh boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandeloreon Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 On 2021-02-01 at 1:28 AM, (XBOX)Architect Prime said: I'm sure there's a million posts on this topic, and I'm sure this is a beaten ass horse. But I'm going to PC and I wish I could play warframe on there, but nope. I just want DE to even say they're working on it. Gosh. I know that the line up of the updates poses an issue, but there should be some way to do this. Just sayin. I agree that cross-save/cross-progression is a must. I am missing a lot of items I have on the PC, but completely lack on the xbox. On 2021-02-01 at 11:38 PM, DrivaMain said: You forgot that each platform have different platinum economies. So it can get messy if it’s not pretty well handled. Can you imagine a group of “Rich” PC players can do to the console market? On-going cross-save does not haft to break per-platform platinum markets. There is ways to work with this... A few ideas on this are as follows... Do not transfer platinum between platforms. This is the least ideal solution. Transfer Platinum between platforms freely. This will work to some extent, but will involve adjusting prices and systems on all platforms. Transfer Platinum between platforms in a limited fashion. In other words treat platinum from the PC as "Free Platinum" when looked at from console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobie-wan Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 12 hours ago, dandeloreon said: On-going cross-save does not haft to break per-platform platinum markets. There is ways to work with this... A few ideas on this are as follows... Do not transfer platinum between platforms. This is the least ideal solution. Transfer Platinum between platforms freely. This will work to some extent, but will involve adjusting prices and systems on all platforms. Transfer Platinum between platforms in a limited fashion. In other words treat platinum from the PC as "Free Platinum" when looked at from console. But it does. Even if you don't transfer the actual platinum, the value of other tradable items can vary wildly between platforms. I don't sit around selling stuff all day and I'd never jump to a console so I don't care much, but I can understand how items farmed on one platform to another where they're more difficult to obtain would create huge issues and much upset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Architect Prime Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 What if the plat market was simply not that delicate. How many people do you think are going to transfer at once after the first weeks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_R_o_g_u_e_ Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 10 hours ago, Hobie-wan said: But it does. Even if you don't transfer the actual platinum, the value of other tradable items can vary wildly between platforms. I don't sit around selling stuff all day and I'd never jump to a console so I don't care much, but I can understand how items farmed on one platform to another where they're more difficult to obtain would create huge issues and much upset. The items aren’t any harder to obtain on any platform. What creates the discrepancy in price is that on PC you can get 4200 platinum for $50. On console the same 4200 platinum will always cost $200+ Coupons only work on market items on console and can’t be used on platinum. The supply and demand of everything is pretty much identical. Nothing about your input device makes an item more or less abundant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethaniasm Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 I understand where they are coming from. They have expressed the struggles they face making cross play, but PLEASE. The first cross-play being between PS4 & PS5 obly makes sense because they are both sony. PLEASE DEVOTE ALL YOUR TIME IN COVID TO MAKE CROSS-PLAY HAPPEN. So many people wanna play together but can’t because of this and in any way you guys can make it happen sooner please look into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Ampathetiic Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 RIP this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthK3v Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ethaniasm said: I understand where they are coming from. They have expressed the struggles they face making cross play, but PLEASE. The first cross-play being between PS4 & PS5 obly makes sense because they are both sony. PLEASE DEVOTE ALL YOUR TIME IN COVID TO MAKE CROSS-PLAY HAPPEN. So many people wanna play together but can’t because of this and in any way you guys can make it happen sooner please look into it. The lack of cross-play and cross-save between platforms is not DE's fault. They would need to get Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo to all agree for any of it to happen. Namely, they'd have to agree on a stable, matching price for Plat across all platforms and PC, otherwise players would be forced to use whichever platform had the cheapest Plat prices. Every Plat sale on a console also involves a cut of the sale going to the console company, so they'd have to agree to all take the same cut. I'm sure each of them would also like to try and muscle in a cut of the other platforms' sales as well. So if you want cross-play and cross-save, you need to talk to Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. DE can't do anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethaniasm Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Love the quick responses lol. This community never fails. RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethaniasm Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 Bet im about to tell them to call up Sony Microsoft and Nintendo to make it happen no matter what and I got there back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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