Riven disposition for new Prime Weapons

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

59 minutes ago, Voltage said:

o naturally I want to have a nice collection of them to set my arsenal apart from everybody else. Rivens are just a time investment like anything else, and they used to be alright.

So, how much time did you invest into your Aksomati riven?

That's how F2P game economy works. Somebody invest time, somebody invest money. Nobody care, there you earn your plat, on full time job, or in game. Untill somebody actually buying some plat, cause if nobody does — there is no plat.

 

The only way to make rivens disconnected from plat is to make them untradable. Of course this does not solve any problem itself. But pretty much will force DE to make riven rolling more reasonbale. Currently this is totally BS if you need to invest equivalent of 10k+ plat into the best roll. And then you talk about "apart arsenal" that's not exactly true, right? You don't collect just rivens. You collect power.

 

And yeah, this is exactly how does pay-to-win work. The fact somebody else pay real money for your plat change nothing. You can be old player, who get plat from other players, or new player who get plat from a wallet. And will give it to you.

 

[Jarriaga]

21 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Also, wouldn't both versions of the weapon share the same riven, thus resulting in both weapons losing riven performance?

There's individual per-variant disposition now. That means that if the Braton Prime is overused while the regular Braton is underused, they can be adjusted individually for each case.

21 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Lastly, why should DE release a weapon assuming every player has a riven for it?

Not every player, but the older the weapon, the more Rivens there are for it flooding the market. Those same rivens are "compatible" with the Variants even if they don't have the same stats when the variant is eventually released years later. Thus, Rivens have "future value".

21 minutes ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

Let's see how the weapon performs at release and go from there instead of speculating.

They already know how it goes though. We all do. If the Variant has better stats and the Riven has the same stats for both the base and the variant, the variant will outperform it by default. In addition, powercreep is so high that you now have new base weapons that outperform Prime weapons on release (Acceltra), which is in turn further amplified by Rivens.

DE are OK with variants outperforming the base using regular mods, but DE don't want for Rivens to be used to make the best of the best even better. That's what players want, but not DE. Having them work at the lowest possible level on release helps them function as equalizers, which is how DE advertises them. 

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

2 hours ago, ThumpumGood said:

It's not bound to your account. You can go to the market and buy upgrades, frames, weapons, slots, cosmetics and more. You can trade it to other players. You are spending real money via a gift card called plat that you got from either paying real money to get that gift card or that some one traded to you for items. It's still real money. If no real money had been spent, there would be no plat in the game. I am astounded that you've failed to realize this. Im astounded that anyone fails to realize this. If people stop buying plat, there will eventually be zero plat in game. It's not a gimme like credits. It's a premium item that REAL MONEY was spent on.

You trying to fake it that it's not real money has exceeded my limit for willful disassociation from reality.

You seem to miss a point. There is NOTHING some people can spend their platinum on. Hence it has no value. 

Imagine you have all weapons, all warframes, all skins from shops and you are sitting on 50k - 100k platinum. Now tell how do you spend that platinum. By the time there is any relevant content for you to spent platinum on, you already made 5k-10k platinum extra by just playing the game so it keeps pilling up. 

The ONLY thing that was even remotely "expensive" were the rivens for new weapons. Sure, some may get disposition nerf. But at least you enjoy the weapon for a few months and you got your platinum's worth. 

DE doesn't make money by selling platinum. They make money by selling platinum AND getting it back in their system. Otherwise their currency loses it's value and once the inflation starts pilling up, nobody would want to buy from the market as the value would be "overpriced" in comparison with the effort required to acquire it in game. 

2 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

It's not just Prime weapons. Any new weapon starts at the lowest possible disposition now so DE can measure how the weapon handles itself on its base stats accessible to everyone before they take Rivens into account. That way they get to buff the weapon if needed rather than nerf it due to overuse.

Rivens are supposed to be balancers as per DE's intent. Ergo, they favor weaker variants by giving them higher disposition. This can at times mean that a Riven would make a standard variant outperform a Prime/Prisma/Kuva/Wraith/Vandal/Syndicate variant.

I would understand the decision to put low riven on a weapon that is completely new and not tested. I wouldn't agree. Why on earth aren't you doing some basic testing before releasing them? But I would understand their fear. I mean, if you can't do a decent balance of a weapon on release, might as well just do baby steps. 

However, this is not the case for prime weapons. The non-prime counter part is in game for years already. Small buffs to the weapons (which is what the difference between prime and non-prime is) are not going to cause a massive imbalance. You are only killing the fun & hype that used to come with new prime weapons.  

1 hour ago, GEN-Son_17 said:

This was my understanding as well. Also, wouldn't both versions of the weapon share the same riven, thus resulting in both weapons losing riven performance? Lastly, why should DE release a weapon assuming every player has a riven for it? It should be the opposite. Let's see how the weapon performs at release and go from there instead of speculating.

They share the same riven. But not the same riven disposition. The non-prime version gets significant more buffs from the riven that the prime gets from the riven. How much significant? To the point where the non-prime is stronger than the prime. This is not a unique case. You can check Aksomati or Zakti.  They are in the same boat. 

For prime weapons, they should put the same riven disposition as non-prime. Otherwise they don't make sense. 

[Jarriaga]

21 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Why on earth aren't you doing some basic testing before releasing them?

Because it's not a matter of testing the stats alone, but rather the inability to measure player intentions and usage beyond stats alone and what DE intended. The Xoris debacle is a prime example of this. The nerf wouldn't have happened if players didn't start using Xoris as nothing more than a stat stick that allowed for Naramon in Zenurik. 20 or so people in the weapon design team can only think of so many possibilities vs tens of thousands of people.

21 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

However, this is not the case for prime weapons. The non-prime counter part is in game for years already. Small buffs to the weapons (which is what the difference between prime and non-prime is) are not going to cause a massive imbalance. You are only killing the fun & hype that used to come with new prime weapons.  

This is likely a result of simple "template parity" in which a new Prime weapon is not a new Prime weapon, but simply a new weapon and thus subject to the same standards as any other new weapon. DE could go around this by making an exception for Primes and giving them a higher base disposition upon release. However, this would then defeat the purpose of wanting Rivens to be equalizers rather than further buffs to the top of the line.

You can't have it both ways. Rivens either narrow the gaps, or they widen them. DE have made a choice with regards to what they are going to give priority to.

And even then the next Prime cycle will buff the 0.5 disposition of the current Prime if the weapons were not popular-enough. This is just they wanting for Rivens to work as equalizers and minimize the need to nerf.

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

6 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Because it's not a matter of testing the stats alone, but rather the inability to measure player intentions and usage beyond stats alone and what DE intended. The Xoris debacle is a prime example of this. The nerf wouldn't have happened if players didn't start using Xoris as nothing more than a stat stick that allowed for Naramon in Zenurik. 20 or so people in the weapon design team can only think of so many possibilities vs tens of thousands of people.

I am sorry but I don't buy this. As mentioned, I was away from the game for years and when I came back I acquired most of the weapons and did Simulacrum testing. 

It was obvious  - like within 2 min obvious -  that weapons like Kronen Prime, Kuva Nukor or Kuva Bramma were significantly more powerful than anything comparable to them. And I am assuming that whoever is / should be doing weapons testing DE has significantly more knowledge on how to test a weapon. 

Sure, there might be some isolated examples - as the one you mentioned - but that's not the elephant in the room. You are telling me that you couldn't figure out within 30 min of playing that Kuva Bramma was "overpowered" on release? 

It was obvious. They either did it on purpose or they didn't test it. I am assuming 2nd scenario. Because if it's first, it would mean they created the situation on purpose to have an excuse to change rivens. 

[Jarriaga]

49 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

I am sorry but I don't buy this. As mentioned, I was away from the game for years and when I came back I acquired most of the weapons and did Simulacrum testing. 

You don't have to buy it. No one will change your mind on what you want to believe. Misguided or not, DE don't design around players asking themselves what the absolute most efficient use of XYZ is. They just don't because those players are not DE's priority or even on their radar.

49 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

t was obvious  - like within 2 min obvious -  that weapons like Kronen Prime, Kuva Nukor or Kuva Bramma were significantly more powerful than anything comparable to them. And I am assuming that whoever is / should be doing weapons testing DE has significantly more knowledge on how to test a weapon. 

More than tens of thousands of people combined? I bet they're flattered by your comments.

No matter how much DE are testing a weapon, they inevitably fall into the trap of what they expect for the common usage pattern to be under a controlled environment rather than a min-max meta environment. They don't expect for all players to gravitate towards the best of the best at the expense of what they had enjoyed before. Misguided expectations or too much hope on players? Doesn't matter because the outcome is the same and people only care about the outcome rather than the intentions.

49 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

You are telling me that you couldn't figure out within 30 min of playing that Kuva Bramma was "overpowered" on release? 

They knew. It's an MR15 weapon, and as per their own words, the MR bracket of a weapon dictates its power level. It's still appropriately powerful at MR15 even after the nerf. What they didn't predict was that so many people would drop everything in favor of it. Why? Because it's not just powerful, but convenient to use. You can't measure convenience when your testing environment is centered around proper use. It's exactly the same as what happened with the Xoris and why many believe Kuva Nukor is next.

49 minutes ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

It was obvious. They either did it on purpose or they didn't test it. I am assuming 2nd scenario. Because if it's first, it would mean they created the situation on purpose to have an excuse to change rivens. 

Per-variant Disposition adjustments came long before the Bramma was even released. Yes, 0.5 for new weapons came after it, but Connor's comments hinted at those being the plans long before:

On 2019-11-07 at 12:14 PM, [DE]Connor said:

With individual dispositions, we’ll be able to set new dispositions for Primes and other upgraded weapons right at launch, leaving your current Riven build unaffected.

They just had not implemented them by the time Bramma launched because Titania Prime was delayed.

[TARINunit9]

7 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

Let me see if I got it right: Because of some people who spent platinum irresponsibly - fully knowing about riven disposition changes - they decided to make all new prime weapons MR fodders for anyone who owns a riven? 

So wait, you think anything with low disposition is MR fodder? Because the usual logic goes the other direction

[GEN-Son_17]

4 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

You seem to miss a point. There is NOTHING some people can spend their platinum on. Hence it has no value. 

Imagine you have all weapons, all warframes, all skins from shops and you are sitting on 50k - 100k platinum. Now tell how do you spend that platinum. By the time there is any relevant content for you to spent platinum on, you already made 5k-10k platinum extra by just playing the game so it keeps pilling up. 

The ONLY thing that was even remotely "expensive" were the rivens for new weapons. Sure, some may get disposition nerf. But at least you enjoy the weapon for a few months and you got your platinum's worth. 

DE doesn't make money by selling platinum. They make money by selling platinum AND getting it back in their system. Otherwise their currency loses it's value and once the inflation starts pilling up, nobody would want to buy from the market as the value would be "overpriced" in comparison with the effort required to acquire it in game. 

I would understand the decision to put low riven on a weapon that is completely new and not tested. I wouldn't agree. Why on earth aren't you doing some basic testing before releasing them? But I would understand their fear. I mean, if you can't do a decent balance of a weapon on release, might as well just do baby steps. 

However, this is not the case for prime weapons. The non-prime counter part is in game for years already. Small buffs to the weapons (which is what the difference between prime and non-prime is) are not going to cause a massive imbalance. You are only killing the fun & hype that used to come with new prime weapons.  

They share the same riven. But not the same riven disposition. The non-prime version gets significant more buffs from the riven that the prime gets from the riven. How much significant? To the point where the non-prime is stronger than the prime. This is not a unique case. You can check Aksomati or Zakti.  They are in the same boat. 

For prime weapons, they should put the same riven disposition as non-prime. Otherwise they don't make sense. 

I didn't know that, thank you! 

[GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

There's individual per-variant disposition now. That means that if the Braton Prime is overused while the regular Braton is underused, they can be adjusted individually for each case.

Not every player, but the older the weapon, the more Rivens there are for it flooding the market. Those same rivens are "compatible" with the Variants even if they don't have the same stats when the variant is eventually released years later. Thus, Rivens have "future value".

They already know how it goes though. We all do. If the Variant has better stats and the Riven has the same stats for both the base and the variant, the variant will outperform it by default. In addition, powercreep is so high that you now have new base weapons that outperform Prime weapons on release (Acceltra), which is in turn further amplified by Rivens.

DE are OK with variants outperforming the base using regular mods, but DE don't want for Rivens to be used to make the best of the best even better. That's what players want, but not DE. Having them work at the lowest possible level on release helps them function as equalizers, which is how DE advertises them. 

Great points.

[fo3nixz]

3 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

It's an MR15 weapon, and as per their own words, the MR bracket of a weapon dictates its power level.

The MR requirements is irrelevant on kuva weapons , since a mr5 can acquire and use it

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, fo3nixz said:

The MR requirements is irrelevant on kuva weapons , since a mr5 can acquire and use it

The acquisition loophole does not negate the stats-based MR bracket the weapon belongs to, which correlates to its performance. Otherwise you are implying that the Kuva Brakk, Ogris and Quartakk are weaker than or on par with the base variants because they can be obtained sooner due to the same loophole despite being superior in every way.

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:

So wait, you think anything with low disposition is MR fodder? Because the usual logic goes the other direction

True, but the disposition changes on new release weapons doesn't follow that logic - hence the current problem. Disposition - in the past - was dictated by popularity. People tend to use weapons because they are stronger than other available options. Hence, the low riven disposition made somewhat sense. 

However, this is not the case anymore. 

Unless the weapon can compete without a riven with other existing weapons -> MR fodder. If the weapon has a non-prime version with 1+ dispo, it's an automatic loss for any "serious" build. As the only way to offset the riven benefits would be a massive buff to its prime version - which doesn't happen. 

 

[rapt0rman]

Luckily "mastery fodder" is a player made problem that isn't shared by the whole player-base, and DE has no obligation to cater to it.

And I'm not talking about weapons so bad that they're unusable, I'm talking about "if it's not the best, then there's no point"

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

25 minutes ago, rapt0rman said:

Luckily "mastery fodder" is a player made problem that isn't shared by the whole player-base, and DE has no obligation to cater to it.

And I'm not talking about weapons so bad that they're unusable, I'm talking about "if it's not the best, then there's no point"

Yea exactly. And I'm not sure if people realize that DE is clearly still trying to make those people happy. A lot of the recently released weapons are OP so people have a wider choice of OP weapons to choose from.

These people have no excuse for saying they cant use guns now, especially after these next few updates.

[Yamazuki]

Honestly not sure why the minimum dispo change couldn't have just applied to actual new weapons. Slightly stronger variants of an unpopular weapon is going to still be unpopular, forcing a minimum disposition and then waiting multiple prime cycles for it go get to where the original variant is at is a silly idea.

Then again, balancing rng stat mods entirely on popularity rather than how good the weapon is was also silly. As well as using such as a system to lazily balance out weapons. All Rivens should've just been equal and left as an end-game goal, and DE could just have kept their path of lazily nerfing what ever had a dominant usage rate.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

13 minutes ago, Yamazuki said:

Honestly not sure why the minimum dispo change couldn't have just applied to actual new weapons. Slightly stronger variants of an unpopular weapon is going to still be unpopular, forcing a minimum disposition and then waiting multiple prime cycles for it go get to where the original variant is at is a silly idea.

Then again, balancing rng stat mods entirely on popularity rather than how good the weapon is was also silly. As well as using such as a system to lazily balance out weapons. All Rivens should've just been equal and left as an end-game goal, and DE could just have kept their path of lazily nerfing what ever had a dominant usage rate.

Popularity sometimes can equal how good a weapon is. We don't know their full internal system, but the Bramma wasnt just some weapon that was kinda forgotten about and happened to fall by the wayside and discovered later.

People are communicative animals.....some guy says "Holy crap, this weapon is amazing! It has high CC, good base damage and good AOE potential!" Then it spreads like wildfire. 

Some weapons are just good....and they also become popular because of that. 

Now, there are obviously many situations where people discover a weapon is good, but it doesn't pick up steam because it may have slipped through the cracks, or there was another weapon in play to distract the masses.

I don't agree with the system obviously, just clearing up why some people dont seem to understand the whole "it's only based off popularity" thing. 

Weapons that are bad or mediocre dont just become popular unless it's for a reason. Some weapons have a good enough gimmick to attract enough people, to make them en masse start farming and formaing and or buying a weapon and DE obviously sees that.

[GEN-Son_17]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Popularity sometimes can equal how good a weapon is. We don't know their full internal system, but the Bramma wasnt just some weapon that was kinda forgotten about and happened to fall by the wayside and discovered later.

People are communicative animals.....some guy says "Holy crap, this weapon is amazing! It has high CC, good base damage and good AOE potential!" Then it spreads like wildfire. 

Some weapons are just good....and they also become popular because of that. 

Now, there are obviously many situations where people discover a weapon is good, but it doesn't pick up steam because it may have slipped through the cracks, or there was another weapon in play to distract the masses.

I don't agree with the system obviously, just clearing up why some people dont seem to understand the whole "it's only based off popularity" thing. 

Weapons that are bad or mediocre dont just become popular unless it's for a reason. Some weapons have a good enough gimmick to attract enough people, to make them en masse start farming and formaing and or buying a weapon and DE obviously sees that.

The good ole hype train. This is why I think DE's method works. Regardless of the previous version or MR, new weapons will automatically generate buzz and play. The strength of that play is based on the buzz, as you said. However, I'd only wish players who naturally don't prefer that weapon's type (semi-auto, burst, crit, etc) refrain from discussing it. A few youtubers like to do that and their influence can really ruin the potential popularity of said weapon.

[Birdframe_Prime]

16 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

The ONLY thing that was even remotely "expensive" were the rivens for new weapons. Sure, some may get disposition nerf. But at least you enjoy the weapon for a few months and you got your platinum's worth. 

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring on this specific topic right here.

Because the overwhelming consensus from aggregate Forum, Reddit and Social Media feedback was that having expensive Rivens on release of a new Prime only for the Disposition to get reduced was definitely not getting people their money's worth.

The biggest single complaint every single time there was a disposition nerf was if that nerf was for a new weapon that players had spent Plat on and it was suddenly worth less.

DE themselves stated that the feedback they got about their previous strategy, starting new weapons at Neutral and starting new Primes at the same disposition as their base variants, meant that the people searching for those Rivens paid over the market value and that the popularity made DE nerf the Disositions and devalue the price after the rush. Having the system that 'balances' weapons against both their base power and their overall popularity meant that all new released weapons got nerfed, not buffed, at the first opportunity and it made players feel worse for engaging in the system.

I was kind of a victim of that myself, the Stradavar Prime was coming out, and I rolled this little baby on my final Kuva Roll of the day:

Spoiler

Since I was competing with one of my clan members to get the best roll... I won that ^^

In any case, they immediately nerfed the Stradavar's disposition with that Prime Access. And nerfed it again the next time. (This was before the Primes and base versions had separate Dispositions.)

It did not feel good. Didn't feel terrible, but definitely not good. It did not give me value for my game time investment getting Kuva and rolling this Riven. It even detracted from winning the little competition with my clan member because they immediately laughed at my luck of getting that god-roll and losing it to balance.

However.

If DE had, at that time, released the weapon itself with the base of 0.5 Disposition, I would have known I was going into that little rolling session with low expectations. I would not have expected a god-tier weapon at the end of it. I would have expected it to be something that grew with time. Because then people would have immediately levelled the new Prime, seen it was just another assault rifle and then shelved it... I would have started with a Riven that was bad and, every time the Dispo updates came around, it would get buffed and, a few months after the release, I would be looking at a Neutral or even Positive disposition on my Riven and my initial time investment would have only gained value over time.

That's what the change is for.

Not for players like yourself that are happy to spend the plat and enjoy the brief buzz of playing with a god-roll.

It's for all the players that repeatedly, on every single Riven Dispo change, were up in arms that their hard-earned Plat was devalued. They were vocal, they were extremely vocal, and DE listened.

You were content with the way things were. Others were not.

[ReddyDisco]

1 hour ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring on this specific topic right here.

Because the overwhelming consensus from aggregate Forum, Reddit and Social Media feedback was that having expensive Rivens on release of a new Prime only for the Disposition to get reduced was definitely not getting people their money's worth.

The biggest single complaint every single time there was a disposition nerf was if that nerf was for a new weapon that players had spent Plat on and it was suddenly worth less.

DE themselves stated that the feedback they got about their previous strategy, starting new weapons at Neutral and starting new Primes at the same disposition as their base variants, meant that the people searching for those Rivens paid over the market value and that the popularity made DE nerf the Disositions and devalue the price after the rush. Having the system that 'balances' weapons against both their base power and their overall popularity meant that all new released weapons got nerfed, not buffed, at the first opportunity and it made players feel worse for engaging in the system.

I was kind of a victim of that myself, the Stradavar Prime was coming out, and I rolled this little baby on my final Kuva Roll of the day:

  Hide contents

Since I was competing with one of my clan members to get the best roll... I won that ^^

In any case, they immediately nerfed the Stradavar's disposition with that Prime Access. And nerfed it again the next time. (This was before the Primes and base versions had separate Dispositions.)

It did not feel good. Didn't feel terrible, but definitely not good. It did not give me value for my game time investment getting Kuva and rolling this Riven. It even detracted from winning the little competition with my clan member because they immediately laughed at my luck of getting that god-roll and losing it to balance.

However.

If DE had, at that time, released the weapon itself with the base of 0.5 Disposition, I would have known I was going into that little rolling session with low expectations. I would not have expected a god-tier weapon at the end of it. I would have expected it to be something that grew with time. Because then people would have immediately levelled the new Prime, seen it was just another assault rifle and then shelved it... I would have started with a Riven that was bad and, every time the Dispo updates came around, it would get buffed and, a few months after the release, I would be looking at a Neutral or even Positive disposition on my Riven and my initial time investment would have only gained value over time.

That's what the change is for.

Not for players like yourself that are happy to spend the plat and enjoy the brief buzz of playing with a god-roll.

It's for all the players that repeatedly, on every single Riven Dispo change, were up in arms that their hard-earned Plat was devalued. They were vocal, they were extremely vocal, and DE listened.

You were content with the way things were. Others were not.

The previous system didn't feel good for many people, myself included. you talking about stradavar brought back memories of my own little adventure to get the best roll for it

not as great as yours but i was quite happy about it for a a sec and then riven dispo nerf happened, it was the same story with fulmin, acceltra and bramma. i blame myself for getting baited into this flawed system.

[ThumpumGood]

19 hours ago, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

You seem to miss a point. There is NOTHING some people can spend their platinum on. Hence it has no value. 

Imagine you have all weapons, all warframes, all skins from shops and you are sitting on 50k - 100k platinum. Now tell how do you spend that platinum. By the time there is any relevant content for you to spent platinum on, you already made 5k-10k platinum extra by just playing the game so it keeps pilling up. 

The ONLY thing that was even remotely "expensive" were the rivens for new weapons. Sure, some may get disposition nerf. But at least you enjoy the weapon for a few months and you got your platinum's worth. 

DE doesn't make money by selling platinum. They make money by selling platinum AND getting it back in their system. Otherwise their currency loses it's value and once the inflation starts pilling up, nobody would want to buy from the market as the value would be "overpriced" in comparison with the effort required to acquire it in game. 

I would understand the decision to put low riven on a weapon that is completely new and not tested. I wouldn't agree. Why on earth aren't you doing some basic testing before releasing them? But I would understand their fear. I mean, if you can't do a decent balance of a weapon on release, might as well just do baby steps. 

However, this is not the case for prime weapons. The non-prime counter part is in game for years already. Small buffs to the weapons (which is what the difference between prime and non-prime is) are not going to cause a massive imbalance. You are only killing the fun & hype that used to come with new prime weapons.  

They share the same riven. But not the same riven disposition. The non-prime version gets significant more buffs from the riven that the prime gets from the riven. How much significant? To the point where the non-prime is stronger than the prime. This is not a unique case. You can check Aksomati or Zakti.  They are in the same boat. 

For prime weapons, they should put the same riven disposition as non-prime. Otherwise they don't make sense. 

Again... If I own everything in walmart, the gift card has no value to ME. And you seem to be in that place. You can continue to say that plat has no value all you want but it doesnt change the truth of it being REAL money. You can buy the some of the same things with plat that you can with real money. So no matter how you try to twist it into something else, you're wrong. Forma, Warframes, cosmetics, slots, and so on. You're just wrong.

And it's sad that some people agree with you. You're the CNN of Warframe.

[Tiltskillet]

On 2021-02-02 at 4:10 AM, --RV--WhiteWolf said:

For example, I checked Tenora Prime vs Tenora stats. Sure, Tenora Prime has slightly better stats. However, due to riven disposition differences the non-prime Tenora has better stats if you own even an average/mediocre riven - let alone a "top tier" one.

It's sort of off-topic, but it's possible--though probably not likely-- those stats aren't final.   They could get worse, even! 😄    It could also have something extra that's not reflected in the stats.   Aksomati Prime, for instance, has accuracy that gets better as it spools up, and ends up being very precise.   The vanilla version OTOH  gets worse and worse, and ends up being the least accurate but low recoil auto pistol I can think of.  Consequently, they play very differently against targets that take more than a few bullets to die. 

Anyway, more on topic, I prefer the way DE deals with new weapon dispos now to how it was.  (I'd like it even better if they put more effort into actually calibrating power levels than using the dispo crutch, but oh well.)  I do think they could do a better job differentiating new versions of old weapons so that  fewer people felt like their great rivens were wasted on them.  The current situation is exactly what DE said they wanted to avoid when they made this change.

[(PSN)M00n_Slippers]

On 2021-02-02 at 4:31 AM, vegetosayajin said:

The new disposition changes were implemented to skew the "riven mafia" as I understood it, but I may be wrong.Someone correct me if that wasn't the official reason.

This probably played into their decision but I don't think it had especially to do with the economy, it had more to do with power balancing and weapon usage variety.

Riven disposition is based on weapon usage, and new weapons that come out, especially prime ones, tend to experience a really high usage at least at first, so starting out with the highest disposition didn't actually mesh with their purpose. You don't need high dispo to make people use the weapons, people already will because it's new and shiny. Once tthe next thing comes out and people forget about that old weapon, the disposition will rise. Also, Warframe weapons are experiencing power creep, which is another point of the rivens, to make old weapons better able to compete with newer, more powerful ones. The new weapons don't need as much help as the old ones, they are designed to be pretty good on launch when it comes to the current meta, but as the game changes down the line they may end up needing more help, like the old weapons do.

For that reason I understand the change, even if I think they should have gone with 2 or 3 pips out of the gate instead of one. 1 seems a bit harsh for something like the Panthera Prime which just wasn't that good. Then again they probably should have just made it better, instead of necessitating a riven to fix it but really just makes the basic Panthera better than the Prime is.

 

[SerphV]

Rivens... Here we go...

Again...

 

[GEN-Son_17]

So I took some time today to check out several of my favorite weapons, their primes and then added the rivens. 

Zakti vs. Zakti prime: enormous difference in performance and usage. Adding the riven to the original Zakti actually created a problem because I didn't like my current riven's setup for it.

Boltor vs Boltor prime: godly of a difference and, again, required a different riven setup when placed on the original.

There's no need for me to continue because the pattern was the same every time. This caused me to look at just how well thought out each of the prime weapons were. Stats are just a part of the whole feel, flow and performance differences. Even as something old school like the hek and veykor hek have differences so great that the riven roll focus would be dramatically different for me. The riven disposition is absolutely spot on!!

You're all playing yourselves in reality. The riven, even at its lowest, is still high performing and is a game changer for every weapon that has one. More importantly, why should any of us expect a high yield return on a brand new weapon when EVERYONE, and I mean everyone, knew the system was meant as a way to get less used weapons a boost. 

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

On 2021-02-03 at 12:15 AM, rapt0rman said:

Luckily "mastery fodder" is a player made problem that isn't shared by the whole player-base, and DE has no obligation to cater to it.

And I'm not talking about weapons so bad that they're unusable, I'm talking about "if it's not the best, then there's no point"

So you think releasing a prime weapon that is weaker than it's non-prime counter part is a good concept? I guess some people love weapons for their skins. I, for one, look for how it performs. 

On 2021-02-03 at 11:22 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I'm going to throw my hat in the ring on this specific topic right here.

Because the overwhelming consensus from aggregate Forum, Reddit and Social Media feedback was that having expensive Rivens on release of a new Prime only for the Disposition to get reduced was definitely not getting people their money's worth.

The biggest single complaint every single time there was a disposition nerf was if that nerf was for a new weapon that players had spent Plat on and it was suddenly worth less.

DE themselves stated that the feedback they got about their previous strategy, starting new weapons at Neutral and starting new Primes at the same disposition as their base variants, meant that the people searching for those Rivens paid over the market value and that the popularity made DE nerf the Disositions and devalue the price after the rush. Having the system that 'balances' weapons against both their base power and their overall popularity meant that all new released weapons got nerfed, not buffed, at the first opportunity and it made players feel worse for engaging in the system.

I was kind of a victim of that myself, the Stradavar Prime was coming out, and I rolled this little baby on my final Kuva Roll of the day:

  Hide contents

Since I was competing with one of my clan members to get the best roll... I won that ^^

In any case, they immediately nerfed the Stradavar's disposition with that Prime Access. And nerfed it again the next time. (This was before the Primes and base versions had separate Dispositions.)

It did not feel good. Didn't feel terrible, but definitely not good. It did not give me value for my game time investment getting Kuva and rolling this Riven. It even detracted from winning the little competition with my clan member because they immediately laughed at my luck of getting that god-roll and losing it to balance.

However.

If DE had, at that time, released the weapon itself with the base of 0.5 Disposition, I would have known I was going into that little rolling session with low expectations. I would not have expected a god-tier weapon at the end of it. I would have expected it to be something that grew with time. Because then people would have immediately levelled the new Prime, seen it was just another assault rifle and then shelved it... I would have started with a Riven that was bad and, every time the Dispo updates came around, it would get buffed and, a few months after the release, I would be looking at a Neutral or even Positive disposition on my Riven and my initial time investment would have only gained value over time.

That's what the change is for.

Not for players like yourself that are happy to spend the plat and enjoy the brief buzz of playing with a god-roll.

It's for all the players that repeatedly, on every single Riven Dispo change, were up in arms that their hard-earned Plat was devalued. They were vocal, they were extremely vocal, and DE listened.

You were content with the way things were. Others were not.

I understand the reason behind the change. But now the complain tables have reversed. 

A MR12 spending all his platinum on a new riven complains on reddit and he gets his wish. A MR30 player with years in game and 100k+ platinum is being denied the only thing he has left in the game - the thrill of a good weapon on a release. 

Now the option of using the riven is entirely removed hence "no problem", right? What do the people who complained gained? Because they couldn't afford rivens, let's trash rivens so nobody uses them!!! Nice. 

It's like advocating to remove BMW from the car market because you someone cannot afford it. How about buying something affordable and let those who can afford it have their fun? 

On 2021-02-03 at 2:55 PM, ThumpumGood said:

Again... If I own everything in walmart, the gift card has no value to ME. And you seem to be in that place. You can continue to say that plat has no value all you want but it doesnt change the truth of it being REAL money. You can buy the some of the same things with plat that you can with real money. So no matter how you try to twist it into something else, you're wrong. Forma, Warframes, cosmetics, slots, and so on. You're just wrong.

And it's sad that some people agree with you. You're the CNN of Warframe.

If you have 100 or 1000 forma doesn't make any difference. And you keep making the same wrong statement. What if I told you that your pizza is worth a human life? Because, you know, on some parts of the world people are starving and thus a slice of pizza would save a life. So each time you eat a pizza, you are indirectly killing someone. Objects / resources have different values for different people. You can't extrapolate the value it has to someone and then generalize.  

Also, you keep equating real money with platinum. Can I change platinum to real money? NO. Hence no correlation. Simple as that.

Can you change in real life goods for money and money for goods? YES. Hence there is your correlation. Simple as that. If DE would put the option to trade platinum for real money, I would absolutely agree with you. Otherwise, sorry, platinum has no reference with money once it's in the game. 

On 2021-02-03 at 5:30 PM, Tiltskillet said:

It's sort of off-topic, but it's possible--though probably not likely-- those stats aren't final.   They could get worse, even! 😄    It could also have something extra that's not reflected in the stats.   Aksomati Prime, for instance, has accuracy that gets better as it spools up, and ends up being very precise.   The vanilla version OTOH  gets worse and worse, and ends up being the least accurate but low recoil auto pistol I can think of.  Consequently, they play very differently against targets that take more than a few bullets to die. 

Anyway, more on topic, I prefer the way DE deals with new weapon dispos now to how it was.  (I'd like it even better if they put more effort into actually calibrating power levels than using the dispo crutch, but oh well.)  I do think they could do a better job differentiating new versions of old weapons so that  fewer people felt like their great rivens were wasted on them.  The current situation is exactly what DE said they wanted to avoid when they made this change.

This is on-topic and the problem at hand. And I am not referring here specifically to Tenora Prime. I am sure it will be dead on release. I am trying to correct - or better said raise awareness - of underlying problem: The difference in disposition between prime and non-prime makes prime items not usable outside of fashion purposes. This is more painful on a new weapon release as it's dead on arrival for anyone who knows how to mod a weapon. 

The easy fix is to simply decide on some rule between prime and non-prime like: The difference between Prime and Non-Prime item shall not be greater than 0.3.

Imagine a weapon with 1.5 disposition getting a prime. The non-prime will have 50% more damage. 

They want to kill the riven market and have 0.5 dispo on all new non-prime weapons? Fine. But there is no excuse for prime weapons. We already know for years how the weapon performs. Slapping  5% damage increase on prime it it's not going to break the game. At least keep the hype and a reason to farm it.