Octavia Prime maybe worse than non-prime?

[Soy77]

5 hours ago, Artekkor said:

More shields is more shields. Shield gating, while might be a new form of tryharding and min-maxing isn't really something 99% of the player base considers when making their builds. So its fine.

Mind you, if we'll establish a pattern of considering more shields to be a downgrade because mah shieldgating - DE might get suspicious and try to Destroy shield-gating meta.... Probably by nerfing shield-gating into the ground.

Don't make a ruckus when there doesn't need to be one.

Just want to remind everyone who missed this comment to give this guy an upvote.

[nslay]

12 minutes ago, Soy77 said:

Just want to remind everyone who missed this comment to give this guy an upvote.

No, because it’s not true. At the very least, we simply never slot shield mods on anything... even casuals will probably know this. There is no trying... it’s not even hard.

[Artekkor]

30 минут назад, nslay сказал:

No, because it’s not true. At the very least, we simply never slot shield mods on anything... even casuals will probably know this. There is no trying... it’s not even hard.

Then you'll be dissapointed to know that Redirection is probably in my top 5 most used mods and has a permanent stay in most of my everyday, all-purpose builds.

While yes, my 99% statement is definetely wrong and was a hyperbole based on my biased playstyle - i goddamn guarantee that if this kind of altitude towards shields will continue to grow - eventually DE will have something to say about this. And there's a decent chance that we won't like the outcome.

Best case scenario - they'll make some reasonable change, like have invincibility duration be proportional to shield's capacity so that you could go both ways depending on your prefference.
Worst case scenario - we'll get a nerf and that'll be the end of that conversation.

I kinda like the current state of things and find shield mechanics to be pretty comfortable, so i'd rather not accelerate the events with ridiculous statements like "more shield bad".

[(PSN)Apoleon_amarr]

Forget about shields, you are invisible 98% of the time with octavia, 

[nslay]

25 minutes ago, Artekkor said:

I kinda like the current state of things and find shield mechanics to be pretty comfortable, so i'd rather not accelerate the events with ridiculous statements like "more shield bad".

Right, they need to do something like remove the constants and fixed values in the shield regen formula. It should be % per second so that shield quantity doesn’t matter and that having more is slightly better than having less. Because objectively yes, “more shield bad” currently. 

[KittySkin]

You are speaking about an invisibility frame, its not prone to take damage unless a random AOE hits you and if that's the situation, more or less shields for shield gating purpose wont change a thing, you are just bad positioned and thats all.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

1 hour ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

The only "lol" part is how clueless you are about how shield gating works.

Unless he’s lol’ing at you all for being tryhards and thinking you need a decaying dragon key to not die in this game. Outside of endurance runs and Orphix Venom, what’s the point? Do you know how many times I’ve needed to run the key to stay alive in this game? It’s zero, the answer is zero.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Berzerkules said:

If you run key, Brief Respite, enough Augur mods and have your efficiency right you might be able to free up one mod slot on the non prime.  It depends on what max shields are on non prime compared to prime. I'm too lazy to go find a screen shot of Octavia Prime's stats to figure it out though. 

It doesn't really matter though since such a small minority of the player base cares about min/maxing to that level. The ones that do will either do the math or just test it. 

I'm more concerned who would actually play octavia around those mods and a key given how her kit works. To begin with none of her skills are spam worthy. I can see the combo on frames like Khora, or those that swap in thermal sunder for some AoE damage on certain frames, but on one like octavia that have long lasting skills and access to unlimited stealth along with an aggro management skill it seems so very odd.

I also wonder what content they run if they need more than the constant 0.33 sec gate that spammy frames have. And if that is "dur hur hur 9999 enemas!" then the answer is already there for them regarding frame stats, DE doesnt balance or take that content into account in their design, it is just there for those that want to do it. But I think this whole thing is kinda like all the drones that used endless builds in normal content, where they didnt make use of health and armor mods since they were "pointless" according to guides, while never really understanding why those mods were pointless in those specific guides. And then you had to run around and ignore their cries for resses in otherwise trivial content.

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

3 hours ago, nslay said:

No, because it’s not true. At the very least, we simply never slot shield mods on anything... even casuals will probably know this. There is no trying... it’s not even hard.

Are you implying that to exploit invincibility via shield gating, all you have to do is simply not equip redirection? Because that is simply not true. Shield gating stops those ridiculous one-shots you used to get before revised, but by no means does simply not having redirection on grant you some kind of invincibility loop. That’s definitely not something that casual players are going to be aware of or benefit from.

[fo3nixz]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

To begin with none of her skills are spam worthy. 

helminth exist

[nslay]

1 minute ago, (PSN)sister-hawk said:

Are you implying that to exploit invincibility via shield gating, all you have to do is simply not equip redirection? Because that is simply not true. Shield gating stops those ridiculous one-shots you used to get before revised, but by no means does simply not having redirection on grant you some kind of invincibility loop. That’s definitely not something that casual players are going to be aware of or benefit from.

By "at the very least", I mean that not equipping Redirection means your shields will recharge to full faster (a necessary condition for maximum shield gate effect). All of that other stuff is you putting words in my mouth.

 

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

14 minutes ago, nslay said:

By "at the very least", I mean that not equipping Redirection means your shields will recharge to full faster (a necessary condition for maximum shield gate effect). All of that other stuff is you putting words in my mouth.

 

Well then what did you mean when you said “it’s not even hard?” What’s not hard? I’m not truing to argue just for the sake of it, it just seems to me like you are saying something that isn’t true.

[nslay]

Just now, (PSN)sister-hawk said:

Well then what did you mean when you said “it’s not even hard?” What’s not hard? I’m not truing to argue just for the sake of it, it just seems to me like you are saying something that isn’t true.

Go back and read the post again. If you think there's something not true, please point it out.

On the other hand, don't go back and read things into my post that I didn't say.

 

[(PSN)sister-hawk]

13 minutes ago, nslay said:

Go back and read the post again. If you think there's something not true, please point it out.

On the other hand, don't go back and read things into my post that I didn't say.

 

I mean you could just clarify what you meant. But keep being difficult, idc.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

53 minutes ago, (PSN)sister-hawk said:

I mean you could just clarify what you meant. But keep being difficult, idc.

I’ll take a swing at this for him, I think he was just saying that the concept of “smaller shield value will recharge faster” isn’t hard to grasp. At least that’s how I read his statement.

[nslay]

9 minutes ago, (PSN)sister-hawk said:

I mean you could just clarify what you meant. But keep being difficult, idc.

 

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

I’ll take a swing at this for him, I think he was just saying that the concept of “smaller shield value will recharge faster” isn’t hard to grasp. At least that’s how I read his statement.

OK. Here's some clarification. First of all, it's not hard to not slot Redirection. Even before shield gating, it was a practically unused mod. It's certainly not trying either.... just don't slot the thing!

So just by not slotting Redirection, you improve your ability to use shield gating better... even just from passive recharging. Sure, you can do a lot more like decaying dragon key and Brief Respite/Augur Mods... maybe something from Helminth. But even passively recharging your shields will be faster with less shields.

Now, why is that the case for passive recharging? You passively recharge 15 + 0.05*M shields per second, where M is the max shields. What is the time to full recharge?

time to full recharge in seconds = M/(15 + 0.05*M)

This is a monotonically increasing function. The limiting recharge time is 20 seconds (as M goes to infinity). So time to full recharge is always < 20 seconds. Because it is an increasing function, smaller M corresponds to shorter passive recharge time.

Here's what the plot of time-to-full recharge looks like:

Spoiler

As you can see... not using Redirection is to your benefit. And it's something everybody can do very easily (just don't slot it!)... probably a lot of players do this already because they'd rather slot armor or vitality mods. They're probably not even aware of the benefits of not using Redirection.

Recharge rate mods definitely reduce recharge time. Though having less shields is still better for the same reason. Time to full recharge will just instead be < 20/C seconds, where C = 1 + recharge mods.

So here's what this plot looks like with Fast Deflection

Spoiler

Now make no mistake. This is very silly! That +15 term is part of the cause for "more shield bad" (borrowed from another poster). Brief Respite and Augur mods also contribute to this silliness. But removing the +15 term would at least make all shield quantities recharge in the same amount of time. In that case, even though shields are not great, more is still slightly better if you're just going by passive recharging.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

12 hours ago, (NSW)M0rgarath said:

So looking at the stats shown for Octavia Prime in the devstream I really wonder whether Octavia Prime is really better than non-prime. 

You get a bit more energy with the prime version, but you also get more shields. In the current shieldgating meta more shields is in general seen as a negative. Heck some even use the decaying dragon key in missions to have less shields and more survivability in high level content because of it. 

So seems to me Octavia Prime isn't a real improvement over regular Octavia, unlike some other prime warframes. Seems more like an alternative for a different playstyle instead of a straight upgrade to me. Or more geared towards lower level content.. 

What do you all think?

(Same can be said about tenora prime though if you have a riven, given how dispositions work nowadays...) 

New polarity or polarities depending on how DE makes her, and she has a new primed skin along with accouterments to her abilities. I will definitely farm her when she is released.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

 

9 hours ago, (PSN)GER_SIGNUM said:

The true Problem is that her Tenora Prime is weaker than the non Prime! If you have a riven.. DE dont understand to give the Primes more value.. I think the reason is in Canada you are allowed to drink alcohol at Work. So there are always drunk at work. XD

 

ugh.. I hate how now every single prime is going to have it's stats called into question just because "MuH VaNiLLa WiTh a RiVeN Iz BeTtUh!" newsflash: not everybody has or even wants a Riven for the same weapon that's getting primed, so it's not even a valid comparison.

as for Octvia, you're basically invisible 99% of the time with her anyway, so as long as you avoid running into AoEs you can just cast freely without any problems, and the extra energy the Prime has makes it a slight improvement. that said I'm not really a fan of Octavia and the best thing in that PA for me is Pandero Prime... and no, I don't have a Riven for that either so "Muh Vanilla" won't be better. 

 

[--RV--WhiteWolf]

9 hours ago, Kadesfy said:

or maybe the invulnerability time scaling with shield size....

The shield gating would be easily fixed by having the invulnerability duration a % of the max shield achieved before the previous shield break. 

Since DE never bothered (or understood) the way players "abuse" shield gating, the concept never changed. 

Hence the result is: Having lower shields is better. 

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Unless he’s lol’ing at you all for being tryhards and thinking you need a decaying dragon key to not die in this game. Outside of endurance runs and Orphix Venom, what’s the point? Do you know how many times I’ve needed to run the key to stay alive in this game? It’s zero, the answer is zero.

Considering Endurance runs is my most played content in the game, I never remove it from my gear wheel.

You can keep running your low level scrub content with the other noobs though. No skin off my proverbial, matey. 

[(PSN)CodyXSavageX]

I only started using redirection because of shield gating, 

6 minutes ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Considering Endurance runs is my most played content in the game, I never remove it from my gear wheel.

You can keep running your low level scrub content with the other noobs though. No skin off my proverbial, matey.

You know, I don't mind being in the meta and all that but I will rarely truly min max so hard. I'm trying to have fun here and if min maxing takes the fun out of an experience where it's not necessary, don't ever insinuate that people are lower than you for not doing so. 

[(PSN)GER_SIGNUM]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Artekkor:

No, the reason is because we don't want another Rubico Prime situation where rivens made it godlike and went for 500 plat a piece... Only for the entire community to cry out in pain when dispositon was - predictably AND justifiably - reduced. Its a perfectly logical approach on their part.

Even with 1 Dispo the prices are high! There is no change! 

[(PSN)GER_SIGNUM]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb (PSN)robotwars7:

 

ugh.. I hate how now every single prime is going to have it's stats called into question just because "MuH VaNiLLa WiTh a RiVeN Iz BeTtUh!" newsflash: not everybody has or even wants a Riven for the same weapon that's getting primed, so it's not even a valid comparison.

as for Octvia, you're basically invisible 99% of the time with her anyway, so as long as you avoid running into AoEs you can just cast freely without any problems, and the extra energy the Prime has makes it a lolslight improvement. that said I'm not really a fan of Octavia and the best thing in that PA for me is Pandero Prime... and no, I don't have a Riven for that either so "Muh Vanilla" won't be better. 

 

Even without riven the Prime version is a significant upgrade! I wish there is more than "quality of life" changes! 

And why is signatur weapon becomes prime? Is DE breaking some rules..

 

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

7 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Considering Endurance runs is my most played content in the game, I never remove it from my gear wheel.

More power to you then! I acknowledged that it’s viable to run the key in endurance runs, but you have to consider that probably 98% of the playerbase has no interest in staying in a single mission for hours. Personally I’d die of boredom! I have a job and a wife, you think I have time to stay 5+ hours in a single mission? I’m lucky if I get to play an hour or two a day.

Quote

You can keep running your low level scrub content with the other noobs though. No skin off my proverbial, matey. 

Ah, so you think you’re better than me because you fight higher level enemies in a video game.... 😂 no further comment. 

[Artekkor]

1 час назад, (PSN)GER_SIGNUM сказал:

Even with 1 Dispo the prices are high! There is no change! 

I said nothing of prices changes. My point was precisely that people were SURPRISED when Rubico Prime's dispo was nerfed, and suddenly their 500 plat riven wasn't as godlike as before.

DE learned that giving primes too high a disposition causes 2 issues: Free Market goes insane + balance issues because already powerful weapons become straight broken, and that is NOT what rivens were designed for.

So, DE now approach it from the other side. If a new gun comes out - the disposition is first made very low, to make sure we won't create a lovecraftian god of DPS and map-nuking, and then it gets increased as time and field testing proves that the gun is not that popular (which usually implies that its not great).