If Saryn is going to stay like this, let us Blacklist Frames for matchmaking

[Nok-Rntha]

There's a solution
Play with premade groups, clanmates or friends

[Famecans]

I’m against nerfs, the game level needs to go up and not down ...

it would be interesting to have a classification of frames like "Stationary", "Mobile", "Assistance", "AoE"... but this requires a lot of tests, there are not so many players in looby to group squads and we have modifiable skills, in the future there will be no way sort frames

[MrFrog9]

ignoring the debate on whether we should fix gamebreaking stuff or just break everything else so its "fair" and nobody gets their feelings hurt

it'd be nice if the game had a system like Monster Hunter where you could make a room with a little blurb on it to indicate intent

this would let players who want to participate and players who want to afk while a saryn/etc. stands in the middle of the map obliterating everything not have to interact

blacklisting specific frames is stupid though because a) not every frame that can do a thing you hate will actually do that thing and b) in this age of primed firestorm literally any frame with hands can nuke rooms with an explosive weapon

[Scruffel]

"Blacklist this. Toggle that."  I wonder how many times DE has to see this, and think whether or not the issue stems from their own development decisions or the players' unwillingness to learn how to adapt. The reason I say this is that I have history of playing fighting games and competitive* (in a practical sense) shooters. While there are some small ways to tailor your online experience to better suit who you want to play against, there's never a way to truly avoid certain types of characters or players. It's one thing that this character is overpowered and literally broken or a player is clearly miles ahead of your league, but when it simply comes to situations where a player just needs to know how to deal with something or improve on said circumstances? Just saying that it should be able to be avoided completely with a flick of an switch, seems lazy in my opinion. Sure, it's a very easy way to deal with the issue, but not one that actually addresses it. I mean really, this thread should have just been a call to nerf Saryn, since that's what usually happens in fighting games when characters are complained about enough, stemming from their overt power creep in a specific direction. There could be some times where the nerfs are not completely justified, but they can still be useful to bring some sort of balance within the game. A blacklist would not.

Now to avoid my post just simply being a meta complaint, I would still be opposed by the concept of a blacklists for Warframes. *Maybe* for specific MR categories or Quest completions (such as only wanting to play people who completed The Sacrifice to avoid having to curtail Operator usage to not spoil new players, etc.) but that's enough to the extent where it would be reasonably justified, since it can get extremely ambiguous to what can justify allowing a Warframe to be blacklisted. Especially, if it could be used to target the polar opposite of the Warframes being complained here. Think about it. Why play with a Zephyr or Atlas when you would rather have another Equinox or Saryn on your team? It can go both ways, where no one truly benefits.

I would rather suggest to, again, ask for a Saryn nerf and make a good argument for why. Easy solutions do not always equal positive outcomes, and this one would definitely not.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Am 22.3.2021 um 22:48 schrieb EinheriarJudith:

bypassing the issue doesnt make it go away. i like playing pubs on occasion.

What issue exactly? That people subjectively dislike being teamed with certain frames while other people don't mind or even prefer being teamed up with these frames? That's not an issue. It's called preference.

Basically this entire thing is the whole story Eidolon hunters have to hear each week because they don't want to play with certain types of players or want certain frames in their squad. Funny how that is deemed bad and as "elitism" and how they have to use recruit chat to achieve their player and frame preferences being met but if you suggest the same approach to people who don't want to play with Saryn in their public Hydron squad it's suddenly not valid and not called elitist to want to exclude players because they don't fit what someone's looking for. Sounds like double-standards to me.

Am 22.3.2021 um 23:07 schrieb EinheriarJudith:

we all remember how limbo was stopping peoples bullets. if it wasnt an issue and could be solved by playing solo, DE would have left that feature in. guess what? they didnt. things that negatively impact gameplay for others should never be ignored.

Edit: if speed wasnt an issue or the rift wasnt an issue. they wouldnt have an opt out.

Except that Limbo could pretty much freeze the mission progress if his team had unmoded/no melee weapons and no damage abilities. Saryn doesn't hinder mission completion. Quite the opposite actually. Again, this is about subjective enjoyment of the game not about an objective issue. The objective fact someone could bring up to discuss would be that the majority of content is based around killing fast in a large area if you want to progress at an efficient rate which renders other abilities, frames and weapons as objectively subpar.

Other than that, others already pointed out you'd pretty much have to blacklist every frame especially since you can nuke almost anything with almost any frame with Thermal Sunder from Helminth slapped on and a range build these days.

[EinheriarJudith]

6 minutes ago, (PSN)Deeceem said:

What issue exactly? That people subjectively dislike being teamed with certain frames while other people don't mind or even prefer being teamed up with these frames? That's not an issue. It's called preference.

Basically this entire thing is the whole story Eidolon hunters have to hear each week because they don't want to play with certain types of players. Funny how that is deemed bad and as "elitism" and how they have to use recruit chat to achieve their player and frame preferences being met but if you suggest the same approach to people who don't want to play with Saryn in their public Hydron squad it's suddenly not valid.

Except that Limbo could pretty much freeze the mission progress if his team had unmoded/no melee weapons and no damage abilities. Saryn doesn't hinder mission completion. Quite the opposite actually. Again, this is about subjective enjoyment of the game not about an objective issue. The objective fact someone could bring up to discuss would be that the majority of content is based around killing fast in a large area if you want to progress at an efficient rate.

Other than that, others already pointed out you'd pretty much have to blacklist every frame especially since you can nuke on every frame with Thermal Sunder and a range efficiency build these days.

there is a difference between eido groups where people want specific frames for killing eidolons (an issue DE created), and people not wanting their playstyle abruptly changed because very specific frame powers impact movement or interaction between objects/enemies.

even with limbos reworks, he still negatively impacts gameplay for people. volts speed still negatively impacts gameplay for people. ive have seen threads for limbo with people straight up posting that if you dont use low range you are playing him wrong, or that they play him low range to not disrupt the group. if these 2 frame did not negatively impact the playstyle of others, there would be no opt out for speed or the rift.

no frame should do the job of 4 people while inside a group of 4 people. it removes the whole playing part for the others in the group. i will always stand by this. 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

From my perspective, people who leave just because someone else MIGHT not play how they want are pricks who cause inconvenience to others knowingly and to themselves unknowingly by extending their own grind. 

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

4 hours ago, Famecans said:

I’m against nerfs, the game level needs to go up and not down ...

Please. Cranking up numbers isn't enough. I mess around with levels into the thousands in steel path survivals. We need more enemies who are mechanically difficult.  

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb EinheriarJudith:

there is a difference between eido groups where people want specific frames for killing eidolons (an issue DE created), and people not wanting their playstyle abruptly changed because very specific frame powers impact movement or interaction between objects/enemies.

even with limbos reworks, he still negatively impacts gameplay for people. volts speed still negatively impacts gameplay for people. ive have seen threads for limbo with people straight up posting that if you dont use low range you are playing him wrong, or that they play him low range to not disrupt the group. if these 2 frame did not negatively impact the playstyle of others, there would be no opt out for speed or the rift.

no frame should do the job of 4 people while inside a group of 4 people. it removes the whole playing part for the others in the group. i will always stand by this. 

Yeah, as I pointed out that's a different topic and not solved by blacklisting frames as I understood your statement earlier though. That's ignoring how content is designed and adding a bandaid to it. As I said, I'm all for discussing (and potentialy adjusting) the objective reasons that cause aoe clear being king. Such as cc being actively made useless by DE or loot being better/more the faster your kills per minute are. I'll just stand by that blacklisting frames because someone might not feel like playing with them is just asinine.

This also ties in with what has been said already: if you want your squad to include or exclude specific frames or anything else you play with friends, solo and/or use recruit chat. If anything - if we want to even consider a certain way of implementing narrowed down matchmaking directed by player choice - a matchmaking where you can fill out certain criteria about yourself to auto-match you with more suited players would probably be way healthier than excluding others based on their specific frame choice. For example "I'm a support player" would be more likely to match you with people who chose "I'm a damage player" or "I'm new and need help" would match you with players who checked "I want to help". Basically a simplification or automization of what recruitment chat does.

I'm not advocating for this being needed in any capacity but if you'd want to improve matchmaking properly and healthily to make people more likely to match with players with similar goals or playstyles or whatever I'd say it's way better than this one-dimensional blacklisting certain frames "idea" I see pop up every now and then when someone just got their jimmies rustled in a public match.

Like, I don't even care and came up with a more nuanced approach than people who claim to care and all they say is "wah, blacklist all those players who don't obey the way I want to play.". The degree of laziness to come up with an actual interesting solution for their personal problem that is displayed is pretty telling as to how much gravitas their wish that would affect everyone else as well should have in my opinion.

[Carl_Bar]

My thoughts. First and foremost anyone who says that somthign about the gameplay causing a loss of enjoyment is brain dead stupid.. The basic principles of game design and business and how they interact are that a dev creates a fun game. Players play the game and enjoy it, thus they spend money and/or convince others to spend money, (by purchasing it if where talking a pay once to play title), which funds more game development. Making sure players are actually enjoying your game is critical and anything that interferes with that is a potentiol problem.

 

At the same time how many people are upset and what potential issues it creates for the developer in terms of expanding the game are also relevant.

 

And that bring me on to the conclusion. Warframe isn't a game about gun-play anymore, hasn't been for a long time. Thats why things like solo defence  or survival are so hard. Your not supposed to be able to easily do them without wide area kill frames or similar capabilities. its just not the way the game has developed. Asking to not have to play with such frames is just asking to not play warframe anymore.

 

That doesn't mean the exact way it's been done isn't creating other issues, it is, and there's no easy solution to it unfortunately, and the solution may involve toning down kill frames, but that doesn't mean that the game is going to stop being heavily based around abusing the hell out of powers to deal wide reaching damage to many enemies in a very short period of time.

 

 

[Famecans]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

Please. Cranking up numbers isn't enough. I mess around with levels into the thousands in steel path survivals. We need more enemies who are mechanically difficult.  

Yes I understand lvl9999 ... but the operator complained that saryn is dominating everything, what I mean is that the simple solution is to increase all "global resistance levels" or reduce the entire "global damage system", so every player will need support like Rhino or Chroma, even you will need an ally in the squad.

Just to explain, I do not support "singular nerfs" as only the X equipment, only the Y warframe, only the Z skill ...

Talking about enemies with new mechanics, I find it unlikely that DE will add them to common levels. Technically today it is impossible for players to waste time with crowds of enemies with mechanics similar to teralyst or profit-taker in missions such as survival and cryopod defense.
There is a way to add small bosses similar to hydolon and profit-taker but the DE is not here to support a dreaming player like me, I have already done a topic trying to limit the entire AoE damage system and avoid the first kuva brahma nerf but never topics are answered, read or closed.

Spawn Sistem / Enemy Link / Enemy Squad Build - General - Warframe Forums

[(XBOX)Erkwounder]

13 hours ago, (XBOX)Architect Prime said:

I am of the opposite opinion. If, for example, I'm leveling a frame in hydron. I much prefer people who are leveling weapons to nuke every wave so I can just be done with that mind numbing content. If Saryn was nullifying something super challenging for huge amounts of time, that'd be one thing, but she doesn't really impress me outside of a few specific missions.  

If Saryn use molt in hydron Saryn wasting alot xp in there, because affinity radius is 50m or 75m. Killing outside affinity radius is same as reduced amount of xp per kill.

So Saryn killing power is exellent, but is not xp wise. Because you have to stay more vawes to gain same amount xp than killing every mob inside affinity radius. 

[ShortCat]

Blacklisting a Frame is a terrible terrible terrible idea. Why you ask?

How is blacklisting supposed to work? Is only the host allowed to blacklist Frames? In that case blacklist might as well not exists.
For a consistent results blacklist of every player in a squad should be considred. How many Frames should be allowed on a list? 3? So, you create a session and blacklist 3 Frames; 2nd players joins your session with the possibility to blacklist 3 more; up to 9 possible Frames blocked after 3rd player joins. On the other side, your session is on a blacklist of every Warframe player, who blacklisted your initial Frame pick. Furthermore, this session will get on even more player's blacklists when 2nd & 3rd payer join.

As a result, more frames will end on a blacklist, then you as a host initially anticipated. Furthermore, players also blacklist you from the other side of the matchmaking system. This cascading effect will impair matchmaking, especially on less populated nodes. Blacklist is a terrible idea.

[EinheriarJudith]

both Vermintide series, and Deep Rock Galactic have hero duplication blacklist. and with that im out. 

[DeltaForce245]

It seems almost nobody read anything other than the title. I explicitly said I want a Blacklist for the times I want to PLAY the game, not grind. I know that at this point in time is difficult to understand but there are some people that want to play because they enjoy the gameplay of the game instead of mindlessly grinding. Saryn completely removes gameplay for the other 3 people playing and no, no other nuke frame does it at the extent Saryn does, only Equinox has the same range and no LoS rules but the team needs to kill stuff for the nuke. This isn't a "Nuke Bad" thread, as there are other Frames that impact gameplay negatively for SOME people.
I just want to launch the game, play a bit of fissure survival and have fun. 
 

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Blacklisting a Frame is a terrible terrible terrible idea. Why you ask?

How is blacklisting supposed to work? Is only the host allowed to blacklist Frames? In that case blacklist might as well not exists.
For a consistent results blacklist of every player in a squad should be considred. How many Frames should be allowed on a list? 3? So, you create a session and blacklist 3 Frames; 2nd players joins your session with the possibility to blacklist 3 more; up to 9 possible Frames blocked after 3rd player joins. On the other side, your session is on a blacklist of every Warframe player, who blacklisted your initial Frame pick. Furthermore, this session will get on even more player's blacklists when 2nd & 3rd payer join.

As a result, more frames will end on a blacklist, then you as a host initially anticipated. Furthermore, players also blacklist you from the other side of the matchmaking system. This cascading effect will impair matchmaking, especially on less populated nodes. Blacklist is a terrible idea.

This a 4 player coop game with over 40 frames with a really big community, not a 32 player competitive FPS near death. Even if 3 players ban 9 frames, there are enough frames to fill the last spot. And as I said before, if a certain frame can't find a match because he is blacklisted by everyone, it shows more the problems with said Frame than with the blacklist.

 

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Sorry OP but that's a horrible idea, will never happen, and i hope it won't 

[blupache]

2 hours ago, DeltaForce245 said:

This a 4 player coop game with over 40 frames with a really big community, not a 32 player competitive FPS near death. Even if 3 players ban 9 frames, there are enough frames to fill the last spot. And as I said before, if a certain frame can't find a match because he is blacklisted by everyone, it shows more the problems with said Frame than with the blacklist.

 

Maybe I'm living in bizarro world, but I already routinely have PUG groups which don't get a full four players.

There's already a mechanism for blacklisting any frame you want - if you don't like the group comp, you leave.

If you don't want to queue twice, then form a premade.

Making it trivial to preemptively limit the matchmaking pool - before you've even got into the map & decided there's actually a problem - would just a major negative for all players.

Should we also allow people to only join fresh missions that're still at the starting point? Plenty of people don't want to come in halfway through. Just how much do you want to handicap the matchmaking pool?

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 11 Stunden schrieb EinheriarJudith:

both Vermintide series, and Deep Rock Galactic have hero duplication blacklist. and with that im out. 

Yeah, and Diablo games, Destiny and Borderlands don't have it. What's your point? Are we going to list every game that shares elements with Warframe now and count if more or less have some sort of blacklist option and base our opinion on whether it's a good or bad idea for Warframe on whatever the result is? If we do that I'm pretty sure the result would not be in favor for the idea. Also, isn't a duplication blacklist different?

[continue]

hi

banish is a helminth ability

:)

[LeonardBlyx]

It's an interesting idea. I can't think of any frames that I have problem having on my team. There will always be trolls that impede gameplay, but you can troll people with any frame, so blacklisting based on frames does not solve that either. Blocking the player itself, however, does. I'm neutral towards to the idea, it won't affect me at all in a positive or negative way. 

I've written this for devs. I don't think someone who leaves a squad immediately after seeing a frame would give weight to any opinion written here. They are already convinced that they are right and there is no changing that. 

 

 

 

[ShortCat]

8 hours ago, DeltaForce245 said:

This a 4 player coop game with over 40 frames with a really big community, not a 32 player competitive FPS near death. Even if 3 players ban 9 frames, there are enough frames to fill the last spot. And as I said before, if a certain frame can't find a match because he is blacklisted by everyone, it shows more the problems with said Frame than with the blacklist.

First of all, "just 9 Frames" is only what the squad put on the blacklist, while your session is banned for everyone who has one of the Frames in the squad on their blacklist. As a result, you get 2 parties blacklisting each other. I already explaine it.

Second, which is even worse, if the problem is with said frames, then tinkering with matchmaking is the wrong way, since it is just a band-aid. That's a double no from me.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

12 hours ago, (XBOX)Erkwounder said:

If Saryn use molt in hydron Saryn wasting alot xp in there, because affinity radius is 50m or 75m. Killing outside affinity radius is same as reduced amount of xp per kill.

So Saryn killing power is exellent, but is not xp wise. Because you have to stay more vawes to gain same amount xp than killing every mob inside affinity radius. 

To many Saryn users, this may be true. HOWEVER, if you build play her in the right way, specifically for hydron, your speed will significantly outpace the reduced XP gain - making it well worth it. 

[(PSN)dday3six]

“I don’t wanna make friends or play solo!”

”I wanna make randoms do what I want!!”

[DoomFruit]

On 2021-03-22 at 8:50 PM, Hello said:

Sure, I'll throw Wisp and Volt on the list so I can never be in a group with them. 

If I can see the group before the mission starts, I always leave the moment Volt and Wisp pops into the group. People complain thinking I'm looking at relics, but I'm looking at frames.  The moment a Volt uses speed, I leave. The moment a Wisp puts a haste mote in a hallway that we can't avoid, I leave.

If only DE would give us a menu to opt out of "buffs" that affect allies per frame so we can opt out of certain ones.

Also before anyone does the typical "BuT yOu CaN bAcKfLiP" to get rid of speed. Doing that every 5 seconds from people spamming for no reason just kills the flow of the game. Such way to get rid of a mote doesn't exist except for jumping into the abyss.

I'll add Valkyr to that list as well. Also, note that backflip only works on Volt - so even that's not a permanent solution. The only way to get rid of Wisp or Valk's debuff is to either let it run out or throw yourself off the edge into a respawn pit somewhere.

On 2021-03-22 at 9:11 PM, Alpheus said:

You have to explain this one to me, and I'm not being sarcastic because I pay attention to things like this.

I can understand tailoring your Limbo to not limit other players' lethality and not placing your rift in the middle of a doorway. I can understand being careful with Nezha so I don't end up warding someone using Inaros, Grendel, Nidus, or some other rage-frame. I can absolutely understand why you'd leave a bunch of missions if someone's using a 200%+ strength Nova. But how many circumstances pop up where speed is a bad thing? Other than a high strength Blitz Titania in an interior tileset I can't think of any parts of the game where I go "I wish I were slower right now", especially since both of those skills increase melee DPS as well.

Actually, my reason for hating them is different - because melee speed buffs actually break my melee weapon. It's been going on for a year and a half now and absolutely nothing has been done about it. I consider "allied" Wisps, Volts and Valkyrs to be the most dangerous enemy in the game - they disable my main weapon, can do so for a very long time (potentially for the entire mission if the Valk has Eternal War) and I can't even shoot them to get rid of it. See here:

 

[PollexMessier]

A warframe blacklist isn't high up on the list of things I think this game needs but is is something I want.
It wouldn't just be good for players that hate being on a team with those frames but also players who play them because it would reduce those negative interactions and players leaving over it.

I would want it to be mission type specific though and I just dont think DE would put in that much effort. vation, exct. An active category for missions like exterminate, capture, and rescue. And a variable category for modes like survival, sabotage, defection, hijack, ext.

the only frame I'd really wanna blacklist is limbo from most of the game, and saryn from just eso specifically
the only time I *ever* encounter limbos anymore they do nothing but troll the entire match. Got a limbo host on a 20 wave defense gift of the lotus alert with only like 5 minutes left on it, they spent the entire match spamming stasis which made things go incredibly slow and then bailed immediately after wave 19. they were clearly trying to deliberately screw players out of getting a time limited reward. luckily host migration actually worked properly for me that mission
and saryn in eso specifically because of spore conflict. two saryns on the same eso team causes massive problems and reduces efficiency rather significantly because their spores compete instead of work together. Which frequently causes them to lose their spore stacks and negatively affects the entire team. If saryn's spores didn't do this, I would be more than happy to get teamed with a saryn on anything. but DE prefers to nerf things into the ground instead of fix anything, and when they do fix things it's only barely. So I don't see that particular problem going away.