If Saryn is going to stay like this, let us Blacklist Frames for matchmaking

[LockingSoul]

My brain just died here.

Why are you complaining on what other people play? How is speed a bad thing? What the hell is all this? What kind of smooth brain thread is this?

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, LockingSoul said:

My brain just died here.

Why are you complaining on what other people play? How is speed a bad thing? What the hell is all this? What kind of smooth brain thread is this?

Have you considered that some people prefer to play this horde-shooter and actually enjoy the horde-shooting aspect of the game? Not everyone wants to have Warframe boil down into being a walking simulator where one person spams a nuke from start to extraction while everyone else just walks around and collects resources.

[LockingSoul]

Justo ahora, Pizzarugi dijo:

Have you considered that some people prefer to play this horde-shooter and actually enjoy the horde-shooting aspect of the game? Not everyone wants to have Warframe boil down into being a walking simulator where one person spams a nuke from start to extraction while everyone else just walks around and collects resources.

Alright, i guess that kind of makes sense, even tho is still dumb to try and negate people from playing how they like so you can play how you like.

How in the HELL, is Volt's speed or Wisp Haste a bad thing?

[Pizzarugi]

Just now, LockingSoul said:

Alright, i guess that kind of makes sense, even tho is still dumb to try and negate people from playing how they like so you can play how you like.

How in the HELL, is Volt's speed or Wisp Haste a bad thing?

The speed can be way too high for some people's minds to process, I expect. Some people build their Volt and Wisp with maximized strength, meaning you can make your teammates move far quicker than some can think, resulting in them colliding with obstacles or backpedaling off cliffs by accident very frequently.

[kgabor]

Good idea, but why stop here when this could be just one of the options for custom matches?

4 player spawn rates for all modes, JIP in endless, etc..

[Pizzarugi]

22 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Good idea, but why stop here when this could be just one of the options for custom matches?

4 player spawn rates for all modes, JIP in endless, etc..

I wouldn't mind if solo players could adjust missions to have spawn rates equivalent to that of 4 players. The terrible spawns are a reason why I only play on public matchmaking.

What's JIP?

[Mardomus]

You're right. They do need to implement a system that allows you to blacklist map clearing frames or specific frames. Some people may enjoy sitting around letting one person, who think they are "carrying" a group, kill everything, while others who want to enjoy group gameplay can't because they are playing a sit simulator. It may work for YOU, but not others, and players still don't get that. You can argue about playing solo content, or even inviting friends or clan members, but not everyone wants to "solo, or invite friends/clan members". Yes, it's an option, but many want to enjoy "random" gameplay. Plus, not every friend or clan member will be online when you are. Players writing this solo crap are either clueless or being trolls. To be honest, it's annoying. I found Nezha fun way to counter annoying Sayrn players, but it also sucks the fun of the other 2, so I just leave group when I see a map clearing frame there, and que up until one isn't. Best thing to do until they come up with a solution. 

[-Augustus-]

On 2021-03-22 at 11:48 AM, EinheriarJudith said:

bypassing the issue doesnt make it go away. i like playing pubs on occasion.

This may come as a shock to you, but others like playing in pubs, too...using Saryn.

[Pizzarugi]

4 minutes ago, -Augustus- said:

This may come as a shock to you, but others like playing in pubs, too...using Saryn.

And this may come as a shock to you, but some don't like having the core gameplay shut off because someone is using Saryn.

And since nobody wants to accept that Saryn is OP and needs to be nerfed, perhaps a blacklist would resolve the issue.

[GREF_TM]

57 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

since nobody wants to accept that Saryn is OP and needs to be nerfed

What do you mean nobody? Everyone with a functioning brain know that frames like saryn, mesa, octavia, etc. are overpowered as hell compared to many other frames. Why aren't they nerfed then, you'll ask? DE just don't give a rat's arse about balance, that's all. We have many underpowered frames, like excal, nyx, hydroid, atlas and many more that aren't getting buffed for literal years, while on the other side, actual op frames don't get nerfed for years - give me a better explanation why they barely do anything about it rather than just not caring at all.

The only OP frame that was nerfed in the last like 4 years was khora, and not because of being overpowered, but because of being too good at the only good steel path farm that DE didn't want us to have.

[-Augustus-]

2 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

And this may come as a shock to you, but some don't like having the core gameplay shut off because someone is using Saryn.

And since nobody wants to accept that Saryn is OP and needs to be nerfed, perhaps a blacklist would resolve the issue.

If only there was a way we could see who and what was in our pub squads as soon as we loaded in, and then make up our own minds about whether the random composition met our subjective criteria...

[DoomFruit]

On 2021-04-01 at 10:37 PM, EinheriarJudith said:

the 2 biggest strengths of limbos skills are Range/Duration. telling people to not use range mods is telling them not to do their job.

Not necessarily. Duration yes, but range is a different matter. High duration, low range Limbo is enough to fully defend a single mobile defence console with 1 cast of Cataclysm, without catching any other players inside the bubble unless they explicitly want to be there.

13 hours ago, LockingSoul said:

Alright, i guess that kind of makes sense, even tho is still dumb to try and negate people from playing how they like so you can play how you like.

How in the HELL, is Volt's speed or Wisp Haste a bad thing?

Because it actively breaks some melee weapons. See here:

 

[-EPECb-]

Remove her acceleration and it will be enough for her nerfing at now. IMAO

[Hathena]

12 hours ago, GREF_TM said:

What do you mean nobody? Everyone with a functioning brain know that frames like saryn, mesa, octavia, etc. are overpowered as hell compared to many other frames. Why aren't they nerfed then, you'll ask? DE just don't give a rat's arse about balance, that's all. We have many underpowered frames, like excal, nyx, hydroid, atlas and many more that aren't getting buffed for literal years, while on the other side, actual op frames don't get nerfed for years - give me a better explanation why they barely do anything about it rather than just not caring at all.

The only OP frame that was nerfed in the last like 4 years was khora, and not because of being overpowered, but because of being too good at the only good steel path farm that DE didn't want us to have.

Octavia really isn't that OP anymore, I tried playing her in PUBS and she's just unusable because people keep CCing the S#&$ out of every enemy, there are way to many CC frames in the game for her to be usable in PUBS, yes she is OP, but not in the standard 14 IQ missions you have.

this excludes premade squats obv. but this is clearly not what this thread is targeting.

[GREF_TM]

27 minutes ago, QueenHathena said:

Octavia really isn't that OP anymore

She is, just not in the same way as saryn for example.

Being OP means having too many strong qualities without having (enough) downsides to balance them out, and this description fits octavia perfectly. Her kit is overloaded with insanely good stuff most other frames can only dream of, she has literally everything you'd ever need, and it's not just weaker versions of effects to compensate for having all of them - almost all of them of them are also one of the best in their respective category too. As a result, her kit makes a majority of other frames look like literal ass. And what are the drawbacks that are supposed to balance it out? As long as you don't count not having an instant "clear room" button, there are none. That's a textbook definition of overpowered.

[continue]

8 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

She is, just not in the same way as saryn for example.

Being OP means having too many strong qualities without having (enough) downsides to balance them out, and this description fits octavia perfectly. Her kit is overloaded with insanely good stuff most other frames can only dream of, she has literally everything you'd ever need, and it's not just weaker versions of effects to compensate for having all of them - almost all of them of them are also one of the best in their respective category too. As a result, her kit makes a majority of other frames look like literal ass. And what are the drawbacks that are supposed to balance it out? As long as you don't count not having an instant "clear room" button, there are none. That's a textbook definition of overpowered.

the downside is reduced effectiveness in teamplay. she's OP as a solo all-rounder, but her abilities are inherently anti-synergistic with allied CC and nukes, as they need to be targeted to function. team invisibility is theoretically good, but in the times i've played octavia in public matchmaking, very few people have taken advantage of it, likely because they don't need it or are running rage, which also needs to be targeted to function. all that leaves her with is personal invisibility and a fixed-position weapon damage buff, the latter of which is useful in survival/defense/interception/ESO but also takes an immediate backseat if anybody is running a nuke setup, which is more likely in those mission types.

[GREF_TM]

5 minutes ago, continue said:

the downside is reduced effectiveness in teamplay

Which roughly 90% of other frames share, and makes barely relevant.

[continue]

1 minute ago, GREF_TM said:

Which roughly 90% of other frames share, and makes barely relevant.

not to the same degree

[Yamazuki]

18 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Have you considered that some people prefer to play this horde-shooter and actually enjoy the horde-shooting aspect of the game? Not everyone wants to have Warframe boil down into being a walking simulator where one person spams a nuke from start to extraction while everyone else just walks around and collects resources.

Sure, if you want to ignore clearing a room before anyone can see an enemy occurs even with "guns".

I pug 99.99_% of my runs. I almost never see Saryn outside of ESO. However, I frequently hear "BOOM" spam from certain aoe weapons.

For Saryn to do anything, her group has to literally afk. Any of the rush style missions, Saryn can't kill using abilities as spores can't be used for damage. Missions like Mobile Defense, enemies spawn in predictable areas, to the point anyone that knows what they're doing can get 90% of the kills. In any non-low level Defense/Survival, she doesn't do enough damage to "nuke" anything. Against low levels, even Warframes like Oberon and Frost are "aoe nukes".

For other content, enemies are immune/resistant to Warframe abilities already.

We are at a point where people even whine melee "spam" turns the game into walking simulator, and that requires the melee user to walk up to enemies to kill them. Perhaps the issue has nothing to do with "nukes" and all to do with some people being insanely slow, but rather than acknowledge there's a "dirty pug" that's better than them, it's got to be the aoe "nuke" that doesn't exist.

[TheLexiConArtist]

14 hours ago, -Augustus- said:

If only there was a way we could see who and what was in our pub squads as soon as we loaded in, and then make up our own minds about whether the random composition met our subjective criteria...

As someone who has pushed for a proactive opt-out to potentially intrusive buff effects like Volt's Speed (reactive backflipping = your gameplay has already been impeded by the effect, not acceptable) I can field this.

If I host a mission, start working my merry way through the objective and Rando Calrissian decides to matchmake in-progress with a frame that adversely affects my game, be that through a 'buffing' effect I don't want or directly works counter to my build, or through doing #justSarynthings, is it fair to:

• Waste my time already spent loading into MY mission and running up until that point because my only recourse from unpredictable matchmaking is to abort
• Waste the time of everyone else in the squad NOT being a terrible influence by inflicting a host migration on them because my only recourse is to drop squad
• Force any partial premaking to also go through their own host migration/loading screens and have to reconvene on the original host's orbiter

Where public ad-hoc matchmaking exists, the onus is on the developer to ensure that overwhelming influences are not present in the game, and that final agency for the player's personal loadout and control to be between that player and the game environment, not fellow players. This is why Limbo Stasis had to be reworked - one player had overriding agency to stop 3 other players from using guns. Though it was quite enjoyable bringing a sidearm specifically built to instantly dump enough projectiles that the stasis collapsed and watch them cry about it. Turnabout is fair play.

"Just play solo" is not an excuse, especially when there are design elements like Relics where playing solo is directly shooting yourself in the foot in terms of reward efficiency.

[LupoDWolf]

17 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

And this may come as a shock to you, but some don't like having the core gameplay shut off because someone is using Saryn.

And since nobody wants to accept that Saryn is OP and needs to be nerfed, perhaps a blacklist would resolve the issue.

I would call saryn OP, but even miasma-spamming ones don't do much in higher level after corrosive changes. I tried one time my build that dominates ESO, most of the time didn't had time to build spores
but o low to mid level ones it can be frustrating

[project_eulogy]

22 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

what are you talking about? missions require a host connection to run. there is no such thing as P2P with matches that have 4 clients. when the host has terrible connectivity everyone in the match will have it. host migration is to prevent trolling and to prevent loss in the event of a disconnection. the only time the host does not own the lobby is on a dedicated server where the server is the host and everyone connecting to it is the client.

blacklisting would ensure that people can CHOOSE the kind of groups they get matched up in without doing something ridiculous like using recruit chat just to do/repeat normal missions.

i see absolutely no problems with people wanting to have an enjoyable experience while playing with others. blacklisting removes that ridiculous "if you dont like it leave" and "keep leaving until those intrusive things are gone"

people can play how they like but id love to have the option to not have someone forcing me to constantly backflip/roll to remove effects (backflip/roll is not an optout as it doesnt prevent the effect) without secluding myself from others reducing action, pace, player interaction, and rewards.

 

 

Squad up or play solo. WF has clans and friend lists for a reason. If you're mad at PUBs, again, Squad up or play solo. End of story. Nothing in this game is unsoloable. I've been playing majority wise solo or PUBs despite being in the #1 alliance, bc i dont need to have my hand held... And yes. WF is in fact P2P. They have chat, relay, and dojo servers. If there wasn't a P2P Host, we would NEVER have massive lag issues because the host is downloading 75% of the Internet on Preordered Walmart servers, unless DE's hamster fell off the wheel. That's how WF is free. It's P2P. It requires a Host connection so the server can distribute rewards to your account properly, which is why host migrations can screw up because of DE's coding(or lack there of).

If you're going to blacklist any frames, DE might as well delete them all together because Blacklisting will cause a huge backlash in the community. Also, Mirage can out DPS Saryn without any plat spent lol Without Explosive Leger.

people can play how they like but id love to have the option to not have someone forcing me to constantly backflip/roll to remove effects (backflip/roll is not an optout as it doesnt prevent the effect) without secluding myself from others reducing action, pace, player interaction, and rewards.

You suggest the polar opposite of what you want. Blacklisting frames = Not letting people play the way they want. Saryn causes no such actions? I'm not sure what youre talking about since the whole topic is on Saryn. Limbo is the only other frame and since his last rework nobody complains about the rift. If you aren't constantly bulletjumping to keep up high pace, then i feel like youre playing WF wrong especially since you're throwing in Pace as an excuse. You are all suggesting to DE something that is completely ass backwards. My fun =/= your fun and vice versa. If i don't like a squad I'll leave.(ie: taking Mag and a rank 0 Prob C into Eidolons).

While we are banning stuff, can we ban everyone who tries to use non-snipers or low ranked mechs in Orphix missions in the Veil? Much more of a complaint since youre crying about someone out DPSing you versus players blocking the mission from being completed because they didn't take the proper gear into a PUB.

I would like to blacklist all Tenno under MR 25 from joining my grou--- oh wait, there's Recruit to avoid that, with filters.... Youre all just being lazy and don't want to find a squad and would rather have DE force everyone to conform to how you wish to play. They implement this, the game will die because people will just stop playing. Sorry.

[project_eulogy]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

As someone who has pushed for a proactive opt-out to potentially intrusive buff effects like Volt's Speed (reactive backflipping = your gameplay has already been impeded by the effect, not acceptable) I can field this.

If I host a mission, start working my merry way through the objective and Rando Calrissian decides to matchmake in-progress with a frame that adversely affects my game, be that through a 'buffing' effect I don't want or directly works counter to my build, or through doing #justSarynthings, is it fair to:

• Waste my time already spent loading into MY mission and running up until that point because my only recourse from unpredictable matchmaking is to abort
• Waste the time of everyone else in the squad NOT being a terrible influence by inflicting a host migration on them because my only recourse is to drop squad
• Force any partial premaking to also go through their own host migration/loading screens and have to reconvene on the original host's orbiter

Where public ad-hoc matchmaking exists, the onus is on the developer to ensure that overwhelming influences are not present in the game, and that final agency for the player's personal loadout and control to be between that player and the game environment, not fellow players. This is why Limbo Stasis had to be reworked - one player had overriding agency to stop 3 other players from using guns. Though it was quite enjoyable bringing a sidearm specifically built to instantly dump enough projectiles that the stasis collapsed and watch them cry about it. Turnabout is fair play.

"Just play solo" is not an excuse, especially when there are design elements like Relics where playing solo is directly shooting yourself in the foot in terms of reward efficiency.

Recruit Channel fixes all the problems. Again, youre all just being excessively lazy and want people to conform to how you wish to play. You guys are just nitpicking Saryn.

[TheLexiConArtist]

25 minutes ago, project_eulogy said:

Recruit Channel fixes all the problems. Again, youre all just being excessively lazy and want people to conform to how you wish to play. You guys are just nitpicking Saryn.

Considering how I said that was born out of me personally not liking "here's ice physics every 5 seconds, have fun" Speed, I'm hardly nitpicking Saryn.

Also recruiting chat doesn't fix that problem I mentioned at all, does it?

The point is exactly that it's neither player's direct fault nor responsibility when these issues arise. Rando Calrissian should be able to join in ad-hoc, it's not their responsibility not to play <intrusive influence Warframe>, but it's also not the responsibility of the sufferer to waste time aborting, recruiting, or to be denied multiplayer entirely just for wanting to play the game and control their own player-entity the way they expect.

It's the fault and responsibility of the devs for allowing the intrusive influences in an unpredictable environment (random matchmaking) and not providing either adequate balance or tools to remove the intrusion seamlessly (e.g. player-centric personal Opt Out settings for unwanted friendly 'buffs')

Both of these issues DO have precedence for being treated:

•  Saryn-like exhaustively intrusive influences on the environment are why the Tonkor/Simulor Meta had to go, and why things like Blind Mirage were changed.
• Intrusive influences from one player to another are why Speed was experimentally changed to a pickup at one point (sadly abandoned) and why Limbo Stasis was changed to not deny gunplay to others.

[EinheriarJudith]

47 minutes ago, project_eulogy said:

people can play how they like but id love to have the option to not have someone forcing me to constantly backflip/roll to remove effects (backflip/roll is not an optout as it doesnt prevent the effect) without secluding myself from others reducing action, pace, player interaction, and rewards.

You suggest the polar opposite of what you want. Blacklisting frames = Not letting people play the way they want.

this is absolute non sense. how does my removing myself from the situation from the start affect how other people play?

some people are just unreal.