Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe

[TheArmchairThinker]

23 hours ago, Aldain said:

Instead they wind up stretching the newest bosses out with Damage Attenuation and constant teleportation that doesn't solve the issue and only makes certain options significantly worse while still having loopholes that only a select few options can exploit.

So we just have a different set of bollocks that is outrageously inconsistent and still boils down to "power" not actually being a factor but rather ways to circumvent anything DE tries to do to prevent our "power" from trivializing the content from minute 1 of launch.

Seeing how you guys say even with heavily nerfed powers people will still one shot everything, what's the point?

[TheArmchairThinker]

19 hours ago, Corvid said:

I fail to see how a single line giving the player an indication of which way leads to progress, followed by letting them do whatever they want is "handholding". Again, my inspiration for this addition comes from one of the most open games in recent memory.

To be quite frank, time is one of the most valuable things players have. So unless they're already committed to learning the game on startup (which is an exceeding minority of players), any time where they are uncertain if said time is being wasted is time that they might decide is better used elsewhere, in other games. My suggestion at least mitigates the risk of this by, again, ensuring that new players know what their immediate goal is and consequently which tasks are progress and which are side-objectives.

I also don't know why players are so opposed to it when the only dev-time needed would be a single audio recording/editing session, and the time needed to insert the line (it would only need to show up for players that haven't completed a junction, and there are already Ordis lines that drop out of rotation once certain criteria are met, so we know code exists to keep them from being heard by players who don't need them).

So basically put more audio guide for Ordis to tell the players? Put it in feedback, not here and you didn't make it clear about the hint or indication

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

Alternatively, you could spend $60 + $25 + $25 + $40 and an additional $10 every couple of months to deal with the exact same problems in destiny but with generic combat mechanics and a bankrupt power system that doesn’t mean anything, and very little build diversity :D

[PublikDomain]

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

Are those mechanics removed when you reach certain point in power progression?

Technically they're still there, but do they even matter at that point?

You can walk right past Vay Hek's first 3 fights once you learn you don't even have to do them. In his one mandatory fight at the very end his energy sap and damage output can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to shoot him - until you're allowed to one-shot him.

Jackal's damage output and laser grid can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to melee his legs and kill him in his cutscenes.

Sargas Ruk's damage output can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to shoot him.

Lech Kril's damage output can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait until you're allowed to shoot him - until you're allowed to one-shot him.

Raptor does keep the bomb mechanic, sure, but if you know what you're doing you can CC them inside their tubes and just shoot them before they come out. Bomb falls right in the hole, there's not even time to realize that there are different Raptors that do different things.

Ambulas' damage output can be ignored as can the ship artillery and dropships, so you just sit around and wait the few minutes in between waves. I guess you still have to hack them? But with CC you can ignore the recovery drones too.

Kela De Thayme does have the wall shooty mechanic, but certain weapons can hit all the buttons and the artillery strike's damage can be ignored, so you just sit around and wait for her to come back out. The hardest part of the fight is getting in...

Alad V and Zanuka doesn't even register, because with an AoE weapon you can kill them both at the same time.

The game's boss fights are either naked health pools that get one-shot, or gated stages that get reduced to their timers. You either click the boss and it dies or just... sit around for a while.

2 hours ago, TheArmchairThinker said:

I'm not gaining my power only to see it being not having much difference when I fight the boss even on early level places.

Well, you kind of are. Most of the stuff DE's been adding recently makes your gear not make a difference. Nihil's fight doesn't use any of your gear, enemy survivability mechanics reduce your power to nothing, Deimos enemies ignore or resist certain damage types, New War's first half hour doesn't even use your Warframe...

[android3162]

15 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

You are precisely the type of player he was addressing in the most recent video. He shows statistics for average player gaming hours totaling 8.3 hours per week, or barely 1 hour 20 minutes per day. Asking someone to invest 100 hours in that proportion is asking them to devote nearly a third of their entire year just to get to the good parts. That is an unreasonable ask if the intention is to attract and keep new players.

He poised the following question for those with your mindset: Why? 

Why must you power-through and push yourself and devote nearly a 3rd of a calendar year just to get to the "good" parts of the game or for the story to make sense? Why must the learning experience take longer than the entire amount of time it takes to watch Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones in their entirety from first to last episode? That is a daunting expectation when people could devote the same amount of time they to other games or activities they are enjoying from hour 5. 

The fact he pointed out he very often encounters players telling him "It will make sense after 100 hours" or "The true game is 100 hours in and your experience before it is a prologue" or similar comments while refusing to power through the same 100 hour mark in other games just serves to show even those players are somewhat aware of the "100 hour mark" being a daunting time expectation on itself regardless of the activity. 

Hek, I myself was a victim to this mentality. This was me in 2019 defending it took me 2 months do Chains of Harrow when I started the game:

Sure you can use scale/percentage-based arguments as to exemplify why not pushing through XYZ landmark in cases like books or TV series is equivalent within the context of total content. But said comparison is still ignoring the total amount of time investment required in each activity. It's actually a double-ended sword because the more content there is, the more time you have to devote to reach the same 10% landmark. There's a point in which 1,000 hours is 10%, and there is no way on this earth you can convince me that is a reasonable time expectation for getting to the good parts of for the content to click or make sense.

Except for the fact that you DON'T have to spend 100 hours to get to the good parts.

It only takes 100 hours if you LOVE the game and try to get absolutely everything along the way, and 100 hours later, you just love it even more. There's nothing wrong with that.

If you're not interested in every single mission, you ask chat what to do, they say Junctions, and you get to Second Dream in less than 15 hours, and experience all content in less than 40. All the extra time only matters if you already like the game and "waste" time doing stuff not needed for progression.

 

Meanwhile let's see how his video puts it: His first video gives the impression that he absolutely loves everything about the game except that nothing is explained. He plays too little of the game to call it a review, so people want to see his opinion on later stuff.

He then goes out and makes a video in which he forgets about everything good he's said about Warframe. He implies that the first 80% of the game is painful dogS#&$ that you have to sit through for 100 hours, and only the last 20% gets a little bit better. He implies that the devs are incapable of making a good intro, even though everything he liked about the intro was specifically a recent change intended to improve NPE. He implies that we would complain if the intro got easier for new people, just because we had to suffer, even though we do the exact opposite of that all the time. He focus on the 60% of people who leave after the first two hours, and cites that statistic as something telling, while completing ignoring the fact that it's a great statistic for a completely free game with no better to entry and just compares it to expensive games that you would play to get your money's worth. WF can certainly improve NPE for those players and do very well, but it can't just ignore all the vets and put out zero new content, just to cater to new players, which is necessary to have changes as fast as he wants.

In his first video, he makes a few generalised statements about WF that are wrong because he doesn't know better due to not playing enough. That's fine. But in the second, he even completely ignores everything he knew about warframe and paints it in the worst light possible based on nothing.

[_R_o_g_u_e_]

14 minutes ago, android3162 said:

Except for the fact that you DON'T have to spend 100 hours to get to the good parts.

It only takes 100 hours if you LOVE the game and try to get absolutely everything along the way, and 100 hours later, you just love it even more. There's nothing wrong with that.

If you're not interested in every single mission, you ask chat what to do, they say Junctions, and you get to Second Dream in less than 15 hours, and experience all content in less than 40. All the extra time only matters if you already like the game and "waste" time doing stuff not needed for progression.

 

Meanwhile let's see how his video puts it: His first video gives the impression that he absolutely loves everything about the game except that nothing is explained. He plays too little of the game to call it a review, so people want to see his opinion on later stuff.

He then goes out and makes a video in which he forgets about everything good he's said about Warframe. He implies that the first 80% of the game is painful dogS#&$ that you have to sit through for 100 hours, and only the last 20% gets a little bit better. He implies that the devs are incapable of making a good intro, even though everything he liked about the intro was specifically a recent change intended to improve NPE. He implies that we would complain if the intro got easier for new people, just because we had to suffer, even though we do the exact opposite of that all the time. He focus on the 60% of people who leave after the first two hours, and cites that statistic as something telling, while completing ignoring the fact that it's a great statistic for a completely free game with no better to entry and just compares it to expensive games that you would play to get your money's worth. WF can certainly improve NPE for those players and do very well, but it can't just ignore all the vets and put out zero new content, just to cater to new players, which is necessary to have changes as fast as he wants.

In his first video, he makes a few generalised statements about WF that are wrong because he doesn't know better due to not playing enough. That's fine. But in the second, he even completely ignores everything he knew about warframe and paints it in the worst light possible based on nothing.

Oh, so he’s a youtuber?

[android3162]

8 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

I don't think that's a good first impression. It certainly wasn't for me because I don't like to play games for the empty sake of playing more of the game and I was about to quit before I noticed there were quests in the codex.

What can DE do? As I posted earlier: Quests should have a dedicated section in the Star Chart with the main quest DE thinks you should be focused on being automatically selected while highlighting pending progression requirements so you can easily tell there is something "global" you are progressing towards other than just unlocking planets.

It lets you know there is a story beyond Vor's Prize and that there is an overall goal beyond "unlock planets".

Honestly, even tiny changes would go a long way in this. Lotus always pops up and tells you to check your codex for quests, but gets ignored. Just converting that into a confirmation box that says "ok" and "I don't understand," would go a long long way. Also every junction should be considered a quest in the codex and the dialogue, just like it is right now in Navigation screen.

 

Also, we need more quests before Uranus, and a reduction in redundant mission nodes. Just that should be huge for a sense of progression.

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

By that logic you can absolutely excuse any design or progression problem that exists prior to the 100 mark. That is a scapegoat, and he pointed out this response you've given in the latest video as well. Just because it's an expectation for fans of the genre doesn't make it any less daunting for the average player. This is something that can not be reconciled because most people are not seeing this as "This is an MMO, thus the expectation is to dedicate at least 100 hours" but simply "This is a game" and will compare it to other games and activities and what they can accomplish in the same amount of time.

That's an elitist mindset. The game can not survive on dedicated or hardcore or veteran players and fans of the genre alone. For most people, it's a game period. It's either fun or it isn't. It's either engaging or it isn't. They don't think "I'll excuse this 100 hour prologue because it's an MMO" because they are not veterans or dedicated players or fans of the genre who know the intricacies of the genre. For them, it's a just a game and don't even ask or question if it's an MMO, or a shooter, or a fighter, or a racing game, or a puzzle game. None of that matters to a casual player that can only devote 1 hour per day to a game.

Yet he showed the average completion time for the game plus expansions sits around the 100 hour mark on average while completionists push around the 170 hour mark, which means most people are likely done with TW3 as a whole around 50 hours in. You are making his point. Your comment about the "power perspective" is how he starts the video by highlighting people that tell him "He can't criticize an MMO before 100 hours".

You are a power/dedicated/veteran/genre fan player. You don't represent the average player, and neither do I considering I myself used to think devoting 2 months of my life to unlock Chains of Harrow when I started the game was fine. I now see just how flawed my thinking was now that I have less time to play and more activities and responsibilities that compete for my time. The same amount of time, mind you, because the rest of the day doesn't pause or freeze until I complete my gaming quota.

And that is wrong, because WF isnt "that other game" from "that other genre" with "that other system". People pick up WF and similar game because of that mostly. There are plenty of other game genres that are exactly what those other people look for, that caters to them. It isnt elitist in the slightest, it simply means different genres are for different types of people.

I also dont think you quite got my point regarding TW3. I'm saying a fan of MMO's and online games in general doesnt get what they are after in that game, since it ends at the point they/we get to the point it is interesting. My point is, that is a perfect game for the "others" though, since it is structured exactly like the thing they are seeking. We shouldnt change those games to be more like MMO's or online games, just like we shouldnt change MMO's or online games to be like those. Again, different people, different taste. I've tested "survival" games over the years, DayZ, 7DTD, Dont Starve and so on, I can barely get into them, and quit very early on, because their gameplay isnt for me. Just as I have a habbit of dropping season structured games like PoE and D3. I do however not want them to change, since some people are looking for those types of experiences.

And obviously I'm a genre fan, why else would I play WF? And the genre fan is very likely the avarage player of the game, otherwise they love self torture playing a genre that doesnt fit them. I too have had plenty of things to do for a stretched out period of time, it still doesnt make me think of changing one of the reasons why I enjoy the game and games like it. I make sure to set aside time for my hobby, like I've always done, no matter if it has been gaming, drawing, painting, sports or whatever, other spare time things have simply taken a backseat, since without the time with a hobby to stress down I would go postal. 

Plus 2 months to get to a certain quest isnt exactly much when you notice it is a "year 4" content addition.

[Kainosh]

On 2021-08-01 at 12:23 AM, Loza03 said:

"A mess of feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever seen".

 

I would call it "best character play".....  Coz missions and enemies are pretty dull most of the time.  Exept maybe some quest moments.

Warframes on their own are awesome.  Very nice movement, great customization and gunplay. Melee with combos and Abilities. 

But then level/mission design, enemies being rather passive, crazy damage multipliers mess up the balance.....enemy scaling issues and mods being unbalanced as hell (too much trash)

If it were a bit more adrenaline fueled on enemy side....and had more parkour oriented maps and AI, then I would call it "Good gameplay".  Need more uses for all that power Frames have.

[Vortex]

Warframe is just too easy to be immersive.

[PublikDomain]

7 hours ago, android3162 said:

But in the second, he even completely ignores everything he knew about warframe and paints it in the worst light possible based on nothing.

Am I the only one that took his second video to be a rebuttal to the idea that "it gets good 100 hours in" in general? Maybe we watched different things, but it seemed like his second video was about this idea, not Warframe in particular.

Quote

I've seen that sentence, or a variation of, posted on almost every single MMO video I've ever made, and it's not the strong endorsement of the game you think it is.

(Description)

Quote

I've been making MMORPG related YouTube content for years and variations of "it gets good 100 hours in" are commented on ever single video. It doesn't matter if I personally play for 5, 10, or 50 hours, I will always get someone telling me "it gets good 100 hours in". So let's discuss this.

(In the video)

Aside from the background footage, very little in the video is specific to Warframe. It's a general rebuttal to "it gets good 100 hours in".

I rewatched his second video again and the statements specific to Warframe are:

• That in Warframe only 40% of Steam users have played past 2 hours - as support for his idea that players will give games in general about 2 hours before they decide to stay or quit.

And that's literally it... Warframe players taking so much offense to a video that's not even about Warframe is kind of telling. Sounds like he struck a nerve.

[Mr.Fluffins]

I have watched his video. He echoes what quite a few others and I have been saying for a long time - Warframe has an absolutely terrible new player experience, especially considering how many systems it has. DE needs to spend a considerable amount of time and re-work new player experience, considerably extending the early narrative-driven tutorial, covering more systems and in more detail. This would help player numbers and retention greatly, a lot of people give Warframe a try, get confused and leave. Hell, when I first started playing a long time ago, the only reason I stuck around was due to my friends also playing and helping me to get into things, because without them I was completely lost and had no idea what I was suppoused to do. And this was before the game got a metric ton more systems and content.

We desperately need proper new player experience, and it's a shame that it seems to be very low on the priority list.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

On 2021-08-05 at 4:33 AM, mega_lova_nia said:

I've seen that he posted another video about 100 hrs being the minimum time required to enjoy a game, something that warframe has trouble of. It's great that he decided to clear that up. But what im waiting for is if he could just dive in deeper to see the lingering problems of warframe like the unbalanced op ness of warframes, non evergreen content, basically i want to see a full 3rd party review to clear up the debates that has been happening regarding this game. Also, so that DE could open their eyes and see what's going on

If the initial review didn't already show he wasn't gonna go deeper, his video after that should have told you exactly that. Why do you think he made another video? Because for a new player, it could take 100 hours before it gets good. His point is that it should be good right out the gate,  to grab and keep the attention of players consistently. 

[Jaysus41]

I don't get his position. First video he couldn't stop praising the game even with its shortcomings, second video he's complaining that it takes 100 hours to get to the good part and that he has no idea what to do next.

You don't know what to do next?... Have you tried Opening your eyes?

Possible undiagnosed schizophrenia aside, you have pulsating blue nodes on the starchart Begging you to click on them, you have dotted lines all along the starchart pointing you to locked missions behind those blue nodes, and if you haven't seen the unique looking junction nodes yet I'll accuse you of actively trying to ignore them.

The problem isn't Warframe not telling players what they should be doing in the beginning because if they have 1 functioning eyeball and a handful of brain cells it's not difficult to figure out. it's players expecting to be babysat all the way to (what passes as) endgame because they can't figure things out and make decisions for themselves anymore.

That's not a failure of the game, that's a failure of the player.

What happened to exploration? Experimentation? Curiosity? Have we as a species lost the ability to figure games out on our own and instead opt to have games ground up into a gray slurry and IV dripped directly into our veins?

[Cerasium]

1 hour ago, Jaysus41 said:

I don't get his position. First video he couldn't stop praising the game even with its shortcomings, second video he's complaining that it takes 100 hours to get to the good part and that he has no idea what to do next.

You don't know what to do next?... Have you tried Opening your eyes?

Possible undiagnosed schizophrenia aside, you have pulsating blue nodes on the starchart Begging you to click on them, you have dotted lines all along the starchart pointing you to locked missions behind those blue nodes, and if you haven't seen the unique looking junction nodes yet I'll accuse you of actively trying to ignore them.

The problem isn't Warframe not telling players what they should be doing in the beginning because if they have 1 functioning eyeball and a handful of brain cells it's not difficult to figure out. it's players expecting to be babysat all the way to (what passes as) endgame because they can't figure things out and make decisions for themselves anymore.

That's not a failure of the game, that's a failure of the player.

What happened to exploration? Experimentation? Curiosity? Have we as a species lost the ability to figure games out on our own and instead opt to have games ground up into a gray slurry and IV dripped directly into our veins?

Thats how the majority of MMORPGs (and by extent, the majority of the games he plays/reviews on his channel) are. Most on them set you on train-tracks, autopathing between different NPCs as a form of "progression". Starts when you first enter the game, and usually lasts till the very endgame, or at least till mid-game. Just autopathing between NPCs for some bullcrap you dont care about. Seeing as he seems to only play these types of games, I guess he cannot progress without it.

Now there are exeptions of course, MMOs with immersive stories and well written quests/questlines that genuinely make you eager to progress and see what happens next. But the majority are BULL when it comes to stringing the player though the game. If youre not gonna come up with a good storyline for me to follow, just let me be free to do my own thing instead (which WF allows me to do).

Ironically, while I think WF could use a loooot of improvements when it comes to relaying information to new players (like seriously), I also find the early game to be in many ways much better than a lot of MMOs. Namely in what I mentioned before: it lets you be free to do what you want early on, instead of forcing you to sit through 20 hours of generic autopathing NPC bullcrap.

Also, LOL, how can he say that it takes 100 hours for the game to get good, when he hasnt played anywhere close to 100 hours? Im guessing its supposed to be rethorical or something... Still LOL.

[(PSN)palebluelight]

On 2021-08-06 at 11:10 PM, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

Alternatively, you could spend $60 + $25 + $25 + $40 and an additional $10 every couple of months to deal with the exact same problems in destiny but with generic combat mechanics and a bankrupt power system that doesn’t mean anything, and very little build diversity :D

Omg this is so true. I hate Bungie with a passion.

[(PSN)palebluelight]

5 hours ago, Jaysus41 said:

I don't get his position. First video he couldn't stop praising the game even with its shortcomings, second video he's complaining that it takes 100 hours to get to the good part and that he has no idea what to do next.

You don't know what to do next?... Have you tried Opening your eyes?

Possible undiagnosed schizophrenia aside, you have pulsating blue nodes on the starchart Begging you to click on them, you have dotted lines all along the starchart pointing you to locked missions behind those blue nodes, and if you haven't seen the unique looking junction nodes yet I'll accuse you of actively trying to ignore them.

The problem isn't Warframe not telling players what they should be doing in the beginning because if they have 1 functioning eyeball and a handful of brain cells it's not difficult to figure out. it's players expecting to be babysat all the way to (what passes as) endgame because they can't figure things out and make decisions for themselves anymore.

That's not a failure of the game, that's a failure of the player.

What happened to exploration? Experimentation? Curiosity? Have we as a species lost the ability to figure games out on our own and instead opt to have games ground up into a gray slurry and IV dripped directly into our veins?

Asinine would be the word to describe your comments like why deny reality. It’s known that de isn’t know for their game design at all and making excuses for a game that makes you have a second window entirely to type in questions will prolly go down in the worst of game design. Like why do you feel the need to keep the game garbage just because you enjoyed wasting your time playing a game no one else was? Like I’m just saying why be an elitist what does it matter if they teach someone directly what you learned on your own? It’s a freakin video game man get off it with the attitude it’s entertainment there are no badges of honor cause little Johnny figured out warframe. I did it you did no one cares. The problem is good content is obfuscated and goes unplayed by lack of willingness to give basic gameplay information and laziness. Maybe the game could be more challenging and require actual strategy and maybe have an endgame if there were more competent players cause they were taught to you know play the game lol! 

[android3162]

14 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

Am I the only one that took his second video to be a rebuttal to the idea that "it gets good 100 hours in" in general? Maybe we watched different things, but it seemed like his second video was about this idea, not Warframe in particular.

Aside from the background footage, very little in the video is specific to Warframe. It's a general rebuttal to "it gets good 100 hours in".

I rewatched his second video again and the statements specific to Warframe are:

• That in Warframe only 40% of Steam users have played past 2 hours - as support for his idea that players will give games in general about 2 hours before they decide to stay or quit.

And that's literally it... Warframe players taking so much offense to a video that's not even about Warframe is kind of telling. Sounds like he struck a nerve.

It doesn't matter whether or not it's intended to be a general rebuttal to 100 hours. 90% of the background gameplay was Warframe, and the video came out immediately after the Warframe "review." There isn't a single big game he shows footage of or discusses in the whole video other than Warframe.

Either you read between the lines, and realise it's clear he's addressing Warframe specifically.

Or he didn't do that on purpose, but still he roped Warframe into a discussion about absolutely terrible games in which Warframe does not belong whatsoever. Even if Warframe wasn't the main topic, it wouldn't belong in that video. If he only wanted to get the "shouldn't require 100 Hours" point across, he wouldn't have put Warframe in that video, because the Original WF review already expressed that clearly and concisely. The only points that were new in the second video, were 'community is toxic against new players and want them to suffer,' 'Devs are too incompetent to explain their game,' 'Game is absolutely insufferable and not worth touching for 80%, then okay in last 20%,' and 'People only like the game because sunk-costs fallacy.' Take one look at the comment section and you see these exact points being the key takeaways from the video. None of these apply to Warframe, yet he doesn't talk about any other real game.

 

Meanwhile, Warframe is a game that only takes 100 hours to get to Second Dream IF you already LOVE the game and do every single mission you see. Otherwise it takes 15 hours. The New Player Experience is being reworked as fast as feasible. Just this much completely invalidates any reference to Warframe in his second video.

[android3162]

10 hours ago, Jaysus41 said:

I don't get his position. First video he couldn't stop praising the game even with its shortcomings, second video he's complaining that it takes 100 hours to get to the good part and that he has no idea what to do next.

You don't know what to do next?... Have you tried Opening your eyes?

Possible undiagnosed schizophrenia aside, you have pulsating blue nodes on the starchart Begging you to click on them, you have dotted lines all along the starchart pointing you to locked missions behind those blue nodes, and if you haven't seen the unique looking junction nodes yet I'll accuse you of actively trying to ignore them.

The problem isn't Warframe not telling players what they should be doing in the beginning because if they have 1 functioning eyeball and a handful of brain cells it's not difficult to figure out. it's players expecting to be babysat all the way to (what passes as) endgame because they can't figure things out and make decisions for themselves anymore.

That's not a failure of the game, that's a failure of the player.

What happened to exploration? Experimentation? Curiosity? Have we as a species lost the ability to figure games out on our own and instead opt to have games ground up into a gray slurry and IV dripped directly into our veins?

Exactly. He seems like he loves the game in the first part. Everything he liked most awas actually just new recent changes meant to improve the NPE, which he doesn't mention whatsoever, even though he knows the deep cuts like the forums and the registered losers.

 

Then in the second part he basically says it's absolute dogsheet and not worth even touching until 100 hours in, after which it apparently gets a "little" better. While also saying that the community is toxic, worldbuilding is not good enough, devs are incompetent, and anybody that likes the game gas Stockholm syndrome. And no, if it was a general rebuttal to 100 hours thing, Warframe shouldn't have been the only real game in that video, so it's clearly more than that.

[android3162]

11 hours ago, Mr.Fluffins said:

I have watched his video. He echoes what quite a few others and I have been saying for a long time - Warframe has an absolutely terrible new player experience, especially considering how many systems it has. DE needs to spend a considerable amount of time and re-work new player experience, considerably extending the early narrative-driven tutorial, covering more systems and in more detail. This would help player numbers and retention greatly, a lot of people give Warframe a try, get confused and leave. Hell, when I first started playing a long time ago, the only reason I stuck around was due to my friends also playing and helping me to get into things, because without them I was completely lost and had no idea what I was suppoused to do. And this was before the game got a metric ton more systems and content.

We desperately need proper new player experience, and it's a shame that it seems to be very low on the priority list.

It's on the low priority list, but it's on the list, and all the changes have been hugely effective.

If you want it to be a higher priority, just make sure you're never one of the people constantly complaining about content drought, and perhaps meanwhile, think of a way to convince them to chill. I'll gladly join you, although I haven't really been able to convince many people.

[android3162]

On 2021-08-07 at 8:20 AM, TheArmchairThinker said:

Seeing how you guys say even with heavily nerfed powers people will still one shot everything, what's the point?

That's because extremely few things are heavily nerfed. People just panic and complain for no reason even though all the nerf does is extremely slightly change the playstyle. This game has always been about figuring out how to one shot and cheese everything, and without the right stuff, it's insanely tough.

[Corvid]

10 minutes ago, android3162 said:

Everything he liked most awas actually just new recent changes meant to improve the NPE,

You do realise that the only thing that changed was the first mission, right? Everything else is as it was in the previous iteration of the opening questline, and the contents of said mission weren't actually changed all that much.

Also, don't say someone is lying about their opinion. You are not a mind reader, and believe it or not it is entirely possible to have an opinion that is more nuanced than just "It Good" or "It Bad". Saying he likes the gameplay, but dislikes how much of it needs to be completed before major plot elements come into play is not a contradiction.

[android3162]

On 2021-08-07 at 11:13 AM, PublikDomain said:

Well, you kind of are. Most of the stuff DE's been adding recently makes your gear not make a difference. Nihil's fight doesn't use any of your gear, enemy survivability mechanics reduce your power to nothing, Deimos enemies ignore or resist certain damage types, New War's first half hour doesn't even use your Warframe...

That's not applicable at all. Nihil's fight was meant to equalise all players specifically, it was season pass content. Deimos enemies don't reduce your power to nothing, they make you think differently and use other damage types. The game has always been about figuring out how to bully the enemies, and the new bosses and enemies do exactly that- old meta is bad? Figure out new meta. That's what happened with PT, exploiter, Liches, Sisters, everything. That's what people like, and if you don't, that's fine. Just don't tell others that they don't actually like it.

[android3162]

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

You do realise that the only thing that changed was the first mission, right?

I disagree.

The cinematic is the newest, sure. But looking at the game as a whole, the entire Vor's Prize quest is new. Deadlock Protocol and tileset reworks are new. The Jackal fight is new. The gunplay-melee switching system is new and much more fluid. Junctions giving more credits is a huge step. The whole UI change that explains everything that you hover on, is also a huge step. All of these have stopped newbies I know from leaving the game. To say that DE is ignoring NPE, is to say that all of these have been there since the beginning of the game. They can do a better job, but they can also do a worse job.

 

1 hour ago, Corvid said:

Saying he likes the gameplay, but dislikes how much of it needs to be completed before major plot elements come into play is not a contradiction.

That's not really what he said. He said that he loved the gameplay enough to make him want to keep playing regardless of the problems. Then in the second video, he said the gameplay is not worth touching for the first 100 hours, equivalent to hitting a single button repeatedly in a bus driving game. He specifically implied that the community only likes the game because of sunk-costs and hates all new players who skip the bad parts.

If it was just about Warframe having a bad NPE, the second video wouldn't have WF in it at all, because that's unnecessary. All the second video did was rope Warframe in with the worst possible MMOs in theory: straw-man games that are so bad, that he can't give an example of a single real game that's so terrible, yet he implies that's what Warframe looks like.

[Mr.Fluffins]

12 minutes ago, android3162 said:

It's on the low priority list, but it's on the list, and all the changes have been hugely effective.

If you want it to be a higher priority, just make sure you're never one of the people constantly complaining about content drought, and perhaps meanwhile, think of a way to convince them to chill.

Developers are grown up people, whom you would expect to learn what to prioritize and not to be swayed by forum whine. I genuinely believe that they mostly do things that they personally find interesting (which has both positive and negative sides), and unscrewing the new player experience is just boring and difficult, so they keep delaying it.

And to people who say "people are just dumb, open your eyes, read codex" - you are compl;etely off the mark. I have seen so many streamers\youtubers making the same mistakes when trying this game, so many confused people in general chat, it's a systemic problem, and you would think if A LOT of people have THE SAME issues in the beginning of the game, then maybe, just maybe, it's not the people's fault.

New player experience is a gigantic mess, to the point where I actually can't in good faith recommend this game to fresh people, because I know how I felt in the beginning of my Warframe journey, and I know that many of my friends have limited gaming time, and there is NO WAY that, especially after that action-packed intro mission, they will be cool with stopping, sitting down and spending time reading wikis and codex, watching youtube guides just to make head and tails of how to PROPERLY progress in this new game - they will simply drop it in favor of something else. This is a huge problem that needs to be sorted. New player experience should hand-hold people through AT LEAST first 1-2 planets, pets and 1 new waframe through a narrative experience (like the intro missions), while also introducing things like open worlds (through Cetus), void fissures and dark sectors at the bare minimum.