Josh Strife Hayes and Warframe

[Soy77]

Yes posting youtube videos without any further explanations always works really well around here.

We all are dying to click at random videos and just sit to watch each and every one of them.

[o0Despair0o]

Ah, yes. The classic "video without context" posts.

Surely nothing will go wrong here. I can guarantee that nobody will tell you to make up your own mind instead of blindly agreeing to everything some random youtuber with as much game knowledge as game journalists says.

In no way is this going to backfire so hard, your grandkids will feel the burn, too.

Absolutely not.

This will go over well.

[(PSN)theelix]

TL;DR

Shooting and hitting stuff is great.

Explanations? Progression? Story?

Edit: I find it funny that people are complaining about the lack of description, and that "youtuber bad, youtuber know not what they talk about"

Watch the video on 1.5x speed in 5 minutes you hear the entire theme of what people have been saying about the game everywhere. New player experience is garbage. The tutorial quest looks fantastic, but explains nothing.

This video won't be as impactful as Jim Sterling. In-fact, I doubt DE will even acknowledge that it exists at all. Their ideology is that the tutorial system doesn't change new player retention, so they hardly care more than sprucing it up every few years when they do graphical updates or add new pretty tilesets to be annoying by Vor in. They don't care as long as it looks pretty for the people who aren't going to be spending more than a dozen hours in the game.

[Corvid]

1 hour ago, o0Despair0o said:

Ah, yes. The classic "video without context" posts.

Worse, in fact. The thread was made before the video even came out (it was in its premiere countdown).

[Corvid]

59 minutes ago, (PSN)theelix said:

Their ideology is that the tutorial system doesn't change new player retention, so they hardly care more than sprucing it up every few years when they do graphical updates or add new pretty tilesets to be annoying by Vor in. They don't care as long as it looks pretty for the people who aren't going to be spending more than a dozen hours in the game.

The point DE make is that changing the new-player experience (which has happened several times now. Not just reskins, but actual structural changes to more clearly explain the game) doesn't actually result in a noticeable change in players deciding to stick around. To paraphrase, some players take a look at how many systems are in the game and flat out say "this isn't for me", and no amount of tutorialising or explanation will actually change that.

That's not to say it's not a problem to be solved, mind, just that it's understandable from DE's perspective why investing significant resources into the NPE seems wasteful.

[minininja77]

the simple answer is no, Jim Sterling has nearly 8x the subscribers that this guy does so that alone means his video can not have the impact a Sterling video does.

[CephalonCarnage]

I watched it - I like his presentation. this is what he says, though I think you should give him a view. Its an entertaining vid.

 

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"complete mess of game design and feature creep with some of the best gameplay I've ever played"

he's not wrong.

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warfame's cinematic intro is an absolute masterpiece

still not wrong.

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holy crap this game looks gorgeous

still not wrong.

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its a hidden tutorial done right

I think the intro tutorial is much underrated, but he gets it. It teaches you, he likes it. Wish they did the same with other important parts - like Railjack - but I guess its a trade off of cost v player reward. I think they do need more simply because players are turned away from content (like RJ) until someone tells them how to work it.

 

and then.. the mess starts when the tutorial ends and you're dumped into the game with (for him, 2 inbox messages advertising twitch prime verv stuff). Not the best thing for a new player to see the moment the game starts. then he starts talking about how much fun he was having. so much, he forgot to write down what he was doing in order to make the video.

 

and then, with Vor killed:

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I have no idea what to do.

and there we are.

He is now also in the multiplayer stuff, without knowing how MM works, he got dropped into a mission with some rando and got a "host disconnected" message too. Been there. As a new player, he's also right here - you don't need to start the missions in public matchmaking, it should be taught what the difference is and (I think) private or invite only should be the default. I think the MM needs a lot of work and might even make a big difference if you could connect with people before just starting a mission. This is super true for new players who might start a mission with an MR30 who's just dong a NW thing and 1.5 minutes later, its over before you (as noob) even know what's happening.

 

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But I'm starting to feel very confused by the game design. I fight with some other people and we do well., I think. Return to the city and I hand the quest in. I think. And I'm not sure what I just did.

Yup.

And so you get the awesomeness of the tutorial section at the start that instantly turns into "whateva". So he loves the missions and the gameplay, but he is so annoyed at the surrounding stuff that it takes over his review.

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I feel I need a veteran player to sit down with me and dedicate a good to week just in bringing me up to speed with everything thrust upon me.

He's right here too - veteran players know the stuff, and so we forget what it was like, forget the frustations of stuff that we had to figure out - or like me, had to have explained by someone else (see Railjack!)

So there is a great tutorial, great gameplay and yet the "onboarding" process of developing a player into the game is dreadful.

Quote

Its like watching a martial arts movie already half way through and the movie is in Mandarin. You understand enough to kind of follow what's happening and the action scenes are awesome but when someone asks you what's going on, you're like "I have no idea"

 

[(PSN)Unstar]

It's a good video, Brozime did a video where he went through this entire video and discussed how 99% of it was spot-on.  The title is misleading, though, so posting it without context is fraught to say the least.

Will it change anything?  Doubt it.  DE knows this stuff already, it's been said before.  I mean, I suppose it's possible that any given feather could break the camel's back, so sure, if it's a matter of this being the last straw, then maybe DE will feel like doing something.  But I'd hazard nothing will come of this.  It's not that DE doesn't want to fix this, it's that DE's resources are strained and fixing it will come at the cost of something else, so they have to determine that it's worth that sacrifice.

[OniDax]

On 2021-08-02 at 5:45 PM, Corvid said:

The point DE make is that changing the new-player experience (which has happened several times now. Not just reskins, but actual structural changes to more clearly explain the game) doesn't actually result in a noticeable change in players deciding to stick around. To paraphrase, some players take a look at how many systems are in the game and flat out say "this isn't for me", and no amount of tutorialising or explanation will actually change that.

That's not to say it's not a problem to be solved, mind, just that it's understandable from DE's perspective why investing significant resources into the NPE seems wasteful.

I wonder if DE has ever asked why that is. You see, I'm not surprised that changing the "new player experience" hasn't improved player retention. I think it's because of several reasons.

1) DE has never cared much about putting a lot of effort into improving the new player experience. They've tried to make it flashier, because they've thought that would garner more attention from non-Warframe players - it didn't. But they've never actually tried to do a better job at explaining the game's systems. It's not surprising that their efforts were unsuccessful when they never really committed to improving the way the game communicates information about how to play and the goal of playing.

2) The game lacks structure. It's a smorgasbord of different features and systems, inspired by various games that have no relation to each other, and added to the game with no real structure for accessing this content outside of a few quests and progression gates. It's not just that a lot of players (not just some) see the numerous systems and say the game isn't for them. It's that the game doesn't structure players' engagement with these systems, and that the game itself doesn't have a straightforward, streamlined, progressive process of introducing these systems: they are largely randomly available to players.

3) The game has too many overlapping systems. It's not just that the game doesn't structure its systems. It has too many unnecessary systems. For example, most major updates to the game unnecessarily introduced new resources for acquiring new update content, because DE thought it was the only way to keep players engaged with the game; basically, they wanted to stretch out the time it took to complete content by adding new resources that required a lot of grind, hence low drop rates. Every open world introduced new resources for completing its content, along with completely new syndicates instead of utilizing the existing under-utilized syndicates. Look at the mod system. There are so many redundant mods that are slightly different or more nuanced versions of earlier mods. Primary, secondary, and melee weapons have different damage mods. Shotguns unnecessarily have different damage mods than other primaries. There are crit chance mods and then mods that increase crit chance after headshots or aiming. That bloat most certainly turns some players away from the game. Warframe has been described as ruins on top of ruins. It's like the dream within a dream world in Inception, where new buildings were stacked on top of old ones.

4) The lack of polish and quality in many parts of the game, especially the early game, probably doesn't help player retention. A lot of paid and F2P games have more polish than what is seen in Warframe. From the quality of early art assets to animations to bugs with loot, there are a lot of little things that can turn players off from a game. It might seem trivial, but there are many examples of games that had failed launches because of a lack of polish. While Warframe is F2P and has survived 8 years, it's not unbelievable that lack of polish would turn some players away.

5) Perhaps the players DE can't retain simply don't enjoy the gameplay Warframe offers. Warframe isn't for everyone, and as a shooter based largely on arena shooters, it doesn't quite offer contemporary shooter mechanics. So, maybe some players come into the game expecting gameplay like some other game they've played, and they don't find that and then leave. For all its growth as a game and with the growth of the player base, it's still largely a niche game that has seen the growth that it has because it's F2P (which is why, despite having millions of players per month, it still doesn't make AAA money).

 

Basically, there are a number of reasons players could stop playing the game. However, that's no excuse for DE not improving their game. Their own players have told them that the new player experience needs work. Whether or not it helps retain players is ultimately irrelevant. There is an area of their game that their own players have said is lacking. DE should make a good faith effort to improve it. I don't think they have, because they haven't taken the time to structure the post-tutorial game in a way that introduces players to their many systems. They haven't tried to structure the new content and systems they add to the game so that players aren't confused by new stuff; they added the open worlds to the early game, knowing full well that 1) their barely-there story didn't justify doing that, 2) making the content accessible for beginners was like throwing a wrecking ball into the middle of the early progression system, 3) the lack of structure in introducing this content would be detrimental to new players' experience, and 4) the multitude of new resources would only bog down new players' progression. They've continually added new systems to the game without first adding more depth and explanation to their existing systems, systems that are often random in their inspiration instead of being a natural expansion of Warframe's gameplay (i.e. K-Drives and K-Drive races). None of this has helped new players, despite DE always making it available for new players.

[mega_lova_nia]

Heh, im glad i jinxed it.

I just watched the video and the review seems accurate so far with the new player experience and the feel of playing warframe. One thing i do hope for is so that he could dive down deeper into the game to review more problems this game has, especially regarding the power creep, grinding, non evergreen content, etc.

for now, im just glad we finally have a 3rd party, close to non biased, sort of professional review. Something that perhaps DE can listen to. Im surprised that the comments in the video were mostly positive as well, feels wholesome compared to how warframe's community can be when discussing the game.

As for if this review is sponsored or not, i don't think so, i've emailed him way back asking if he's interested in reviewing warframe and he said he did have his eyes on our game for a while now, so this review is to be expected.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

On 2021-08-02 at 12:17 PM, gbjbaanb said:

I think the intro tutorial is much underrated, but he gets it. It teaches you, he likes it. Wish they did the same with other important parts - like Railjack - but I guess its a trade off of cost v player reward. I think they do need more simply because players are turned away from content (like RJ) until someone tells them how to work it.

The thing with DE it seems is they spent money on a 3rd party to develop the now current opening cutscene, showed it off at Tennocon as a "see what we did", and then built a revamped opening mission as well. But that care and concern isn't applied to the rest of the game. I know they work at a snail's pace, at the same time....
 

On 2021-08-02 at 12:17 PM, gbjbaanb said:

Yup.

And so you get the awesomeness of the tutorial section at the start that instantly turns into "whateva". So he loves the missions and the gameplay, but he is so annoyed at the surrounding stuff that it takes over his review.

He's right here too - veteran players know the stuff, and so we forget what it was like, forget the frustations of stuff that we had to figure out - or like me, had to have explained by someone else (see Railjack!)

So there is a great tutorial, great gameplay and yet the "onboarding" process of developing a player into the game is dreadful.

 

DE just changed the opening cutscene, opening mission and called it a day by deeming it a new player experience. So much could have been done but DE did the bare minimum. Players want DE to work on a new player experience, but they already did. They changed the beginning and called it a day.

As for veterans, I haven't forgotten. I've just stopped bothering because DE won't care. Shrug.

[TaricTheAncient]

Best clickbait ever

[Dhrekr]

The worst MMO ever is my boyfriend's potted plant. It has literally none of the features and functionalities of a MMO.

On the other hand Warframe is the worst pidgeon dating simulator as it lacks pidgeons and dating mechanics.

 

But I agree with the video. At least its title. Warframe, which is not (imho) a MMO, is a bad MMO. Like it is a bad pidgeon dating simulator.

[TaricTheAncient]

1 minute ago, Dhrekr said:

The worst MMO ever is my boyfriend's potted plant. It has literally none of the features and functionalities of a MMO.

On the other hand Warframe is the worst pidgeon dating simulator as it lacks pidgeonsand dating.

 

But I agree with the video. At least its title. Warframe, which is not (imho) a MMO, is a bad MMO. Like it is a bad pidgeon dating simulator.

[(PSN)max141064]

Yeah but people aren't really sharing anything. 

If your going to link the video, at least give your opinion on the points made in the video, at least SOMETHING. 

[TaricTheAncient]

Im not gonna watch it cause your telling me to watch it and your not my wife or boss and since you gave no reason to watch it i found compelling such as information about the video or disagreements you have with certain parts i will not be viewing this.

[Genitive]

The summary of the video Josh made: Warframe has excellent gameplay but some of its systems are flawed and new-player experience is not good. Or something like that. Which is basically every criticism of the game ever.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

For those that want a summary. Its a person who plays a lot of video games, often MMO's, video document of their first impressions of Warframe, as a beginner/new to Warframe. "Worst MMO Ever" is just the like the title of a series they have, its not suppose to be literal or too serious. If you know the creator, you are probably already aware of this, if you aren't, it might seem clickbaity. Its a gimmick/scthick thing. 

Their actual views on Warframe are pretty favourable, and if you enjoy looking people experiencing Warframe for the very first time, it might be neat. They seem to enjoyed themselves a lot, have a lot of hype and excitement, some confusion and head scratching as well. Also if you haven't realised that Warframe has a brand new beginner intro scene and experience, because you yourself started 2 years and earlier etc could be fun to watch it to see what has changed. 

I say this because the video was pretty positive about the intro parts, but then left confused as to what to do, not realising that the intro part is actually a relatively new experience only added about a year ago... prior to that... it was even more sparse/lacking in info. So that was kind of funny. 

I rate it as pretty decent, but I also enjoy people experiencing Warframe for the first time, and the sheer joy they tend to have. What they notice, assumptions they make, confusion they experience, etc etc

[bad4youLT]

As someone who seen this few days ago I can say with confidence video makes a lot of good points .

[TaricTheAncient]

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

For those that want a summary. Its a person who plays a lot of video games, often MMO's, video document of their first impressions of Warframe, as a beginner/new to Warframe. "Worst MMO Ever" is just the like the title of a series they have, its not suppose to be literal or too serious. If you know the creator, you are probably already aware of this, if you aren't, it might seem clickbaity. Its a gimmick/scthick thing. 

Their actual views on Warframe are pretty favourable, and if you enjoy looking people experiencing Warframe for the very first time, it might be neat. They seem to enjoyed themselves a lot, have a lot of hype and excitement, some confusion and head scratching as well. Also if you haven't realised that Warframe has a brand new beginner intro scene and experience, because you yourself started 2 years and earlier etc could be fun to watch it to see what has changed. 

I say this because the video was pretty positive about the intro parts, but then left confused as to what to do, not realising that the intro part is actually a relatively new experience only added about a year ago... prior to that... it was even more sparse/lacking in info. So that was kind of funny. 

I rate it as pretty decent, but I also enjoy people experiencing Warframe for the first time, and the sheer joy they tend to have. What they notice, assumptions they make, confusion they experience, etc etc

Thanks sounds like a interesting video. I have often wondered if making a new account so i can experience what its like to jump into this huge world as a beginner would be a good idea but i fear that due to the fact i know tons about the game it wouldn't feel new and exciting like i hoped.

[Aquapisces]

So what about visitors that cannot see this video as it cannot load any like me? A summary is still necessary.

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, Dhrekr said:

The worst MMO ever is my boyfriend's potted plant. It has literally none of the features and functionalities of a MMO.

On the other hand Warframe is the worst pidgeon dating simulator as it lacks pidgeons and dating mechanics.

 

But I agree with the video. At least its title. Warframe, which is not (imho) a MMO, is a bad MMO. Like it is a bad pidgeon dating simulator.

That reminds me, I need to play Hatoful Boyfriend.  I've had it for ages, I just never seem make time to play it.  ( >.< )

 

1 hour ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

 

For those that want a summary. Its a person who plays a lot of video games, often MMO's, video document of their first impressions of Warframe, as a beginner/new to Warframe. "Worst MMO Ever" is just the like the title of a series they have, its not suppose to be literal or too serious. If you know the creator, you are probably already aware of this, if you aren't, it might seem clickbaity. Its a gimmick/scthick thing. 

 

Oh, so sort of like the "Cinema Sins" kind of channel.  "Everything wrong with 'insert your favorite movie here' in less than 15 minutes."

Honestly, Warframe *does* have a pretty rough starting experience, even with someone offering to help.  I've invited a dozen people to try this game.  Every single one quit in less than a month.  (My solution:  I no longer invite people to play Warframe.)

[(PSN)max141064]

Since there is no opinion by the OP and he's too occupied being toxic to people just because people point out that we too have a reccomandations on youtube and don't need someone on the forum to tell us what to watch, i'll give mine. 

1- So damn tired of these youtubers making a video with a title like "OMG THIS GAME KILLED MY MOM!" and in the video "oh no, the game is fine an fun." ....really? the you can smell the clickbait on a low simmer.

2- Gets the lore wrong several time.

3- "The plot in warframe serves the same purpose as the plot in unreal turnament. technically it's there, technically no one cares." ehm....no. Just annoying when these kind of youtubers don't even TRY to pay attention and regard their lack of attention with "oh, it's just the plot that it's not that strong or interesting!" 

4- Uses some great points but doesn't try to take the game as something with it's own rules and it's own way of playing it. He seems to need the game to take his hand and pull him everywhere to do stuff. 

like if every game ever made didn't tell you to do the next mission you would just stay there in the HUB doing nothing because "the game didn't tell me what to do"....come on.

5- The video starts with "the game is not a MMO". proceeds to 26 minutes to say "this is not an MMO part" or "this is the MMO part". dude...it's not or it is an MMO? 

6- it's overall a good video but i don't think it adds anything we didn't ear before. even from the developers themselves.. a lot of the video is him enyoing how the game is a power-fantasy. good, but we know that. the developers talk about it at every stream, every post on their socials, every thread in the forum, so much that it's quite hard NOT to have head it from them. 

7- IMHO if you have to make a review of a game you go from start to "finish" and then make the video, this is just the first impression of a youtuber. 

aaaaaaaaand i don't care that much about what anyone else thinks about games i play or i don't play. 

TLDR: The video didn't add anything we didn't already knew and doesn't even give the developers constructive criticism to make it better. it's just a "first impression".

[Corvid]

14 minutes ago, (PSN)slightconfuzzled said:

intro part is actually a relatively new experience only added about a year ago... prior to that... it was even more sparse/lacking in info. So that was kind of funny. 

Actually, in terms of what's explained and left out the Awakening intro is functionally the same as the previous Forest intro mission, it just better matches the environment shown in the cinematic. And both are far more informative than the old Mercury Cave intro (to say nothing of the even older Mastery test-esque tutorial).

Why yes, I have been here a while. Thank you for noticing.

[TaricTheAncient]

1 minute ago, Corvid said:

Actually, in terms of what's explained and left out the Awakening intro is functionally the same as the previous Forest intro mission, it just better matches the environment shown in the cinematic. And both are far more informative than the old Mercury Cave intro (to say nothing of the even older Mastery test-esque tutorial).

Why yes, I have been here a while. Thank you for noticing.

Aahha i remember the first intro i do not think u got any info except how to move and shoot.