Deconstructor Melee Modding Changes (Sisters of Parvos)

[Jarriaga]

31 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

I can solve that problem in 2 words: Scaling Rewards. 

If warframe is going to be more difficult without that I as a player am not interested that kind of game. It's not why I come to play warframe.

That's a separate issue, and they have to start somewhere. I'd rather they make the game sufficiently difficult first and then appropriately rewarding rather than take no steps at all because everything must be done at once.

4 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

Is it though? 
In your own words,

the DDK becomes an advantage when the player is using brief respite or augur mods because those are the mods that allow you to shieldgate reliably.

It is an advantage regardless because it decrease the time it takes for shield gating to kick in due to an external change while the core item in question (DDK) remains unchanged. I is an exploit born from oversight and lack of thorough testing. Quantifying how much of an advantage you get on its own vs with Brief Respite doesn't change the fact that it still is an advantage when it should be a handicap. The key should fully turn off shield gating. The key, as with all other remaining keys, should be something you don't want with you.

8 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

So clearly this is also hurting a players by being a handicap resulting in a DPS loss for survivability due to being unable to use other dps increasing auras if brief respite. If not brief respite then the player is sacrificing 3 mod slots to equip the augur set. 

Those are fine on their own. I don't have a problem with you stacking Brief Respite with the Augur mods to your heart's content. They were introduced to the game as advantages for choosing them over other things.

8 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

In short: The DDK indeed puts players at a disadvantage. The player equips a very specific aura or sacrifices 3 mod slots. This is arguably a handicap to the player and hence not an exploit.

That doesn't matter. There shouldn't be a single situation in the entire game in which you can turn a Dragon Key into an advantage. Not a single one.

[Jarriaga]

3 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

Also every post from every player here is an opinion and not a fact, so everything posted here is open to interpretation and opinion including your opinion that DDK is an exploit. Facts on the other hand, have a different place to exist and that's not in the forums. 

I stand by this: Refusing to recognize this is an exploit is nothing more than disingenuous, and that is not open to interpretation or opinion. 

If you are unable to overcome your cognitive dissonance due to being used to make the most of this exploit or relying on it then that's on you, but it doesn't change that it is an exploit. If this was intended it would have been a change directly added to the Dragon Key, in which I would then be asking DE while the other 3 keys were not turned into advantages as well. The DDK is an outlier born out of no change made to it, thus an oversight, thus an exploit.

[AJSATmacster1]

They just need to make more interesting units or more specialized units that require more attention in a mission, and design missions around that in order to complete it. 

DE's current idea of difficulty is more armor and health on enemies which isn't difficulty. 

[Skoomaseller]

something I've noticed with these nerf/"fix" posts is that there are a number of people saying "oh yes thank you for the nerf it was soooo annoying" or something along those lines

and I really don't get it, this is a pve game, not a pvp like league of legends where champions are nerfed if they're too strong. 

nerfing anything player-side in pve is always negative impact, wtf is up with this cuckold mentality lol

[B4HEK]

Только что, AJSATmacster1 сказал:

They just need to make more interesting units or more specialized units that require more attention in a mission, and design missions around that in order to complete it. 

DE's current idea of difficulty is more armor and health on enemies which isn't difficulty. 

Invincibility phases aren`t difficulty too.

If DE will ever make enmies faster than grineer manics and with access to parcour, THAT would be a real tought enemy, because you can`t kill what you can`t hit.

But, later on, due to newbie players whining they would obliterate those new enemies... 

Cycle closed.

[Tuturuu23]

1 hour ago, Jarriaga said:

 

You should not be building around or optimizing your builds around oversights and exploits. Full stop.

If you want to decrease shield gating activation downtime, use Fast Deflection or put Pillage in your frame as intended. No other Dragon Key is a benefit, and the Decaying Dragon key only became an advantage because something else was changed in the game. It is an oversight.

Remember, bullet jump was an exploit. Yep they should also fix that oversight.

 

Joking aside, the shield gating, rolling guard, and brief respite / augur mods with dragon key is just a type of survivability (other one is stacking health/armor mods). You call it an exploit now, but I believe its one of the best feature so that other frames like Mag will have a chance to survive high level contents. They don't necessarily need to change this.

[AJSATmacster1]

1 minute ago, B4HEK said:

Invincibility phases aren`t difficulty too.

If DE will ever make enmies faster than grineer manics and with access to parcour, THAT would be a real tought enemy, because you can`t kill what you can`t hit.

But, later on, due to newbie players whining they would obliterate those new enemies... 

Cycle closed.

Never mentioned invincibilty phases as those to like health and armor aren't really a challenge or difficulty.

But, yea a faster smarter enemy would make it more interesting and a challenge. 

[B4HEK]

1 минуту назад, AJSATmacster1 сказал:

Never mentioned invincibilty phases as those to like health and armor aren't really a challenge or difficulty.

But, yea a faster smarter enemy would make it more interesting and a challenge. 

I just remembered old Hyena pack parcouring... LOL

It was done already)))

[Traumtulpe]

12 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

There's an interview in which Reb publicly acknowledged WF is bleeding players because the game is too easy and the devs don't want that.

Warframe isn't losing players because it's too easy, but because it is 100% repetitive grind with updates once in a blue moon that last for 3 days to a week.

The game feels like it, but it isn't technically too easy, rather, there is no balance to speak of. Fine tuned enemy/player damage and EHP values and strategic enemy behaviour is not something that will ever happen in this game.

The closest to balance Warframe will ever see is the fake balance of enemy DPS caps - admitting that there is no balance, and just making you do a flat amount of damage per DE's choice, regardless of mods or weapon used. And not even this is done right, the DPS cap nerfs some weapons far more than others.

[Ogarra_Remaellus]

Never knew this was a thing. Reading comments about how exalted and some melee weapons are now ruined. Laughing internally at how many people are going to be bad at the game because it’s no longer just pressing E. 

[AJSATmacster1]

2 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

I just remembered old Hyena pack parcouring... LOL

It was done already)))

That's true but would be interesting to get a few standard units like that.

[Cystax]

Hey DE, 

My octavia doesn't benefit from combo, so why are the gladiator set mods on my octavia? 

[B4HEK]

Только что, Ogarra_Remaellus сказал:

Never knew this was a thing. Reading comments about how exalted and some melee weapons are now ruined. Laughing internally at how many people are going to be bad at the game because it’s no longer just pressing E. 

People like E tactics because it doesn`t make you cripple your fingers while trying to aim some running mobs and trying not to run into grenade burst...

Will that explanaition suffice?

[Swagbraham]

It's funny to see another nerf that just completely decimates the use of some sentinels.
At least Sentinels like the Carrier and the Helios still have some use, but this literally just pushes players to use the infested companions more.
Or in case that the hounds are actually decent enough: The hounds.

Such an odd-ball move to fix something that has been in the game forever and benefits the player.
I'd say there are far more interesting and needed issues to be fixed, however this nerf seems more like a convenience thing than actually wanting to change something.

In the eyes of some1 who plays higher level content: It doesn't affect me at all because sentinels die withing a few seconds anyway, so no need to equip one.
It's a bit of a harsh nerf for mid-game players who rely on their sentinels and gladiator mods to crit hard, dividing the weapon choice between low and high crit even more.

Idefk what to say anymore lol.

[AJSATmacster1]

1 minute ago, Ogarra_Remaellus said:

Never knew this was a thing. Reading comments about how exalted and some melee weapons are now ruined. Laughing internally at how many people are going to be bad at the game because it’s no longer just pressing E. 

It still will be for the most part unless these arcans and new mods wow me after actually using them myself. 

[vr37]

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

It is an advantage regardless because it decrease the time it takes for shield gating to kick in due to an external change while the core item in question (DDK) remains unchanged. I is an exploit born from oversight and lack of thorough testing. Quantifying how much of an advantage you get on its own vs with Brief Respite doesn't change the fact that it still is an advantage when it should be a handicap. The key should fully turn off shield gating. The key, as with all other remaining keys, should be something you don't want with you.

21 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

That doesn't matter. There shouldn't be a single situation in the entire game in which you can turn a Dragon Key into an advantage. Not a single one.

Oh boy, how is something an advantage to the player when equipping the said item removes an aura slot or 3 mod slots from your choice entirely? It is arguably a profound disadvantage that the player willingly accepts. Unless you personally have a problem with that playstyle. If you do, well I understand but that's not a reason to call it an exploit due to personal biases against certain playstyles. 

Need I remind you that this is nowhere close to an oversight as Helios Deconstructor stat-stick is and was? 

Negative effects that players use to their advantage willingly are not uncommon in warframe if you are aware about how negative impact/puncture rivens and certain corrupted mods work? I suppose one could argue those being exploits too?

17 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

If you are unable to overcome your cognitive dissonance due to being used to make the most of this exploit or relying on it then that's on you, but it doesn't change that it is an exploit.

 In short: there needs to be a greater consensus if us, as players want this change to benefit from the game. It is easy to understand that the whims of a single player are very much insignificant to a live service game like warframe. 

DDK doesn't put you at an advantage. Your shield gate triggers faster. If you don't have any way to restore shields it's a disadvantage. Refusing to acknowledge this is your oversight.

[Jarriaga]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Warframe isn't losing players because it's too easy, but because it is 100% repetitive grind with updates once in a blue moon that last for 3 days to a week.

 

Those statements are not mutually exclusive:

Warframe is losing players because it is 100% repetitive grind with updates once in a blue moon that last for 3 days to a week and also because players outscale enemies by such a wide margin that it becomes brain-dead easy and thus boring because it is not engaging, and no rewards can compensate that.

[(PSN)JaxsonHammerkawk]

2 minutes ago, Swagbraham said:

It's funny to see another nerf that just completely decimates the use of some sentinels.
At least Sentinels like the Carrier and the Helios still have some use, but this literally just pushes players to use the infested companions more.
Or in case that the hounds are actually decent enough: The hounds.

Such an odd-ball move to fix something that has been in the game forever and benefits the player.
I'd say there are far more interesting and needed issues to be fixed, however this nerf seems more like a convenience thing than actually wanting to change something.

In the eyes of some1 who plays higher level content: It doesn't affect me at all because sentinels die withing a few seconds anyway, so no need to equip one.
It's a bit of a harsh nerf for mid-game players who rely on their sentinels and gladiator mods to crit hard, dividing the weapon choice between low and high crit even more.

Idefk what to say anymore lol.

Truuuuueeee!

[Swagbraham]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Those statements are not mutually exclusive:

Warframe is losing players because it is 100% repetitive grind with updates once in a blue moon that last for 3 days to a week and also because players outscale enemies by such a wide margin that it becomes brain-dead easy and thus boring because it is not engaging, and no rewards can compensate that.

Agreed.

[Hierarch777]

Boo, nerfs. /s

On a more serious note, this won't impact me much (quite negligible, in fact). Sure, you can't use Gladiator set bonus from Helios anymore. But they didn't reduce your base damage by 90% or something...

It's completely fine, we still stand tall and mighty. We will still be able to shred armies like we always did. 

[LillyRaccune]

1 hour ago, Drachnyn said:

Anyone remember how they specifically changed set mods so equipping the same set mod on both companion weapon and real weapon would no longer count for two set mods and only each unique set mod counted but regardless where it was equipped? It might have been an oversight initially but after that it was legit.

I totally forgot about that change. I remember now that DE patched it so that you could not have a double gladiator mod set bonus on Deconstructor.

@Jarriaga That means that ever since that point, having the Helios as a stat stick was not an exploit--it was a feature.

Quote

Fixed ability to gain Set Mod bonus by using multiple copies of the same Mod if you have a Sentinel or Moa. Set Mod bonuses require different Mods from the Set to gain the bonus.

 

[sunderthefirmament]

3 minutes ago, vrgamr37 said:

 

DDK doesn't put you at an advantage. Your shield gate triggers faster. If you don't have any way to restore shields it's a disadvantage. Refusing to acknowledge this is your oversight.

Is anyone arguing that the Decaying Dragon Key is an advantage when not paired with some way to regain shields (brief respite, augur mods, warframe/companion abilities, rakta dark dagger, etc.)?   It becomes an exploit when combined with shield regaining methods, and it only became abusable (or worth abusing) when shield gating was introduced.

[Deminisis]

One more reason to never use anything except Smeeta and Vulpaphyla.

Thanks... I hate it.

[Bigbluedragon]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Jarriaga:

This is blatantly false and you know it. Shield gating was added to the game last year. You can not have used an exploit (The DDK) that didn't exist 4 years ago.

As posted several pages before: There's an interview in which Reb publicly acknowledged WF is bleeding players because the game is too easy and the devs don't want that. That means keeping it Goku levels of broken is not working like they'd like for player retention. It would not be an issue to acknowledge otherwise, and steps such as adding TSP and lowering our damage ceiling are babysteps towards that end.

They are not meant to compete. This is a stats-based game, and ever since the very first Final Fantasy on NES, the swords you get at the beginning of the game are not meant to compete with sword you get in the final dungeon. You can not have stats and weapon tiers while also expecting for everything to be viable late game. Pick your lane. You can't go left and right at once. 

What on earth does that have to do with the Decaying Dragon Key?

Again: What does that have to do with the Decaying Dragon Key exploit? They should not exist. Exploits are loopholes. Loopholes bypass entire mechanics, progression trees and balancing systems. They are a sign of improper testing and poor quality control and lack of oversight. They are not things to celebrate or make treat like the new normal and define your playstyle around them because sooner or later they will be patched, and the only way they don't affect you is by not getting used to them.

I think you are very confused. Again: Shield gating was introduced last year, not 4 years ago. The DDK exploit became a thing at that very same moment,

And I don't understand what the problem with the Gladiator Mods is. If you were trying to benefit from them without equipping them on your frame or weapons then might as well complaint that mods in your foundry are inactive and not affecting your stats. That's the funniest thing about this debacle: There's no change for those who were using the Gladiator Mods directly.

I don't care about shield gating exploid. I cared about the galdiator mods on the sentient weapon and they where introduced 4 years ago and changed 4 years ago to only stack once per duplicate. 

What I mostly heard is the Grind loosing players. To make the game not as grindy and make it chalanging the game would need a complete purge and reset. Because Health and Levelscaling dose nothing and you know it. Most of the players still playing the game are here because of the power fantasy.

So in essence 99% of the game is just filler because they are not meant to compete. And so are completely worhtless and the artists and developmenttime of the weapons that are not competing is a waste of time, because they are not in the game to be really played. Because if you get for example a Zaw you can ditch all other meelee weapons in your arsenal. Makes that sense for you? For me it dosn't. Why can't I enjoy my standard version of the Silva & Aegis in an Arbitration or Steelpath? Whats the biggest harm there is? And regardless of that did you miss that i didn't say they are the same to the top 1%. There is still your top 1% but everything below is than garbage.

I didn't talk about this exploid with the DDK and I don't care about the exploid either way. In the end it is everyones choice to abuse an exploid or not, but in my humble opinion this isn't a real exploid its more an oversight, because everything still works as intended. They just syngerize.

A perfectly balanced system has nothing to do with there beeing exploids you can use or not. For example a perfectly balanced game would be a game where you can oneshot everything with your gear or need 800 points of damage with your gear and regardless what you use you take exactly the same time. Perfect balance is nothing that would be enjoyable for me. We have a gear with stat we have mods that change the stats and some weapons fall of and there is the balance already lost. Next up do you know how much testing der would be to bring a perfect balance into a game?

To be as condescending as you. You might be confused, I didn't mention the DDK here. The DDK exploid is already and was for the past year a "problem".

I can tell you what the difference is. For the version where you use no galdiator mods you can use a companion that brings you benifts that are more for your overall build helping you doing more damage with occasional buffs and convenience. The otherone brings the drawback of beeing destroyed no loger giving you vaccuum and otherwise bringing you no real big advantage except of equipping the mods so you have the buffs even though your sentinal dosn't even dose damage. You know, what people call a tradeoff. This interaction that DE was aware short after the plains of eidolons was released, because they nerfed the interaction.

Yes there is no change for the ones who are using the gladiator mods direc... wait are there any? I mean more power to them, but it is not really a build that brings you any benefits with the game as it is because of how it is build at the moment and probably will be untill the server shuts down. 

[(XBOX)Deathunited]

If they nerf things by popularity then do it smart and not make it ridiculous for players. People was already not happy with the first set of nerfs to melees. That was only 3. It replaceable but now you going in as a set to make melees harder to use. I thought we suppose to be powerful and choose our path of weapons? Not be forced to trash certain strong weapons or partners of any sorts that WAS strong