Update 30.5: Melee & Primary Balance Changes Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)

[Prof_Blocks_007]

Very rough initial impressions/feedback (I might make another post once I've tried the Galvanized mods on a lot more weapons with different builds)

Weapon Changes

• Even with Amalgam Organ Shatter (+60% heavy attack wind up speed) and the Swift Momentum Aura (another +30%), my Cerata feels really sluggish to throw. I'm honestly not looking forward to trying my Falcor, which doesn't have Amalgam Organ Shatter (riven has Crit Damage instead). The doubled wind up time feels like quite a heavy handed change.

Primary and Secondary Arcanes

• I haven't got these yet (obviously 126 acoloytes/arcanes is gonna take quite a while, and I do the Incursions anyway, so I'll get them over time)
• Mathematically speaking though, they do look like they'll offer a good boost to damage, even in addition to other base damage modifiers
• For an extreme example, even with my Kuva Ogris, running Amalgam Serration (155%), Arcane Rage (frame arcane, 180%), and Galvanized Aptitude (+80% per status proc with both stacks active). The build has Impact/Puncture/Slash, Radiation (lich element) Viral + Electricity (mods), Blast (innate), and heat (Nightwatch Napalm) - 8 total damage types.
• With, let's say, 6 procs on the target, and Arcane Rage active, it'll have (155 + 180 + (80 * 6)) = +815% total base damage, or 9.15x. Even with the diminishing returns of all that base damage, it'll still get ((9.15 + 3.60) / 9.15) = ~1.39x more total damage from one of the Primary arcanes' +360% more base damage

Galvanized Mods

• These seem pretty good, and the stack-by-stack decay gives them plenty of duration. (That said, the critical chance ones lose all stacks at once, though this might be related to the on-hit + while aiming crit chance buff (the base mod effect) - I presume this is a bug/oversight?)
• The Secondary status mod, Galvanized shot, stacks up to 3x (+120% per status effect) making it particularly powerful compared to the primary/shotgun variants (even when considering the higher (vs primary/shotgun) base damage of Hornet Strike and Arcane Precision)
• I haven't used these enough yet, but they do seem to be pretty good at bringing up weapon power so far (I haven't done anywhere near enough testing yet)
• The 3 multishot ones are an easy fit (just replace the base multishot mod, may require additional forma for secondaries due to the drain increase)
• The 3 status ones are a bit more interesting -  they're easy enough to fit into a standard dmg/ms/cc/cd/element1/element2 setup, with the last 2 slots going to the Galvanized status mod and one of element3/fire rate/reload/riven/etc. If you want to fit 2 of the option mods (e.g. element3 and fire rate), there isn't room for Galvanized status, but that's perfectly fine (build decisions, and all that). Rivens that merge two stats into one slot (particularly on higher disposition weapons) can open up a full "9 slot build", but that's only if you manage to actually get the desired stats (however riven RNG is a topic for another thread, one that could do with being addressed, no less).
• The 2 critical chance ones are a solid upgrade to the standard critical chance mods, provided the weapon can meet the requirements. Particularly good for precision weapons, which will give them a leg up on AoE weapons, though not by much (depending on the spawn density of a given mission, of course)
• The shotgun beam range/projectile speed mod seems pretty low in stats (30% x2) compared to the standard variants, especially for 12 drain in the Exilus slot.
• +60%, 12 drain vs +40%, 7 drain (Fatal Acceleration)
• +60%, 12 drain vs +12m, 5 drain (Sinister Reach)
• Going by the wiki, the 3 beam shotguns have 20m (Phantasma), 25m (Phage), and 30m (Convectrix) ranges, which will presumably gain 12m, 15m and 18m respectively, which is not much gain (none, in the case of the Phantasma) over the base version, especially for the drain cost.
• EDIT: I've just realised (after slotting it into Tenet Plasmor and seeing the arsenal UI stats change) that the mod has +30% range at base, in addition to the +60% from stacks, giving it a total of +90% beam length/projectile speed. Derp.

Closing

Even with all of the above gains for the potential power of primaries and secondaries, they require a lot more investment compared to melees to reach the same power level.

Things to obtain/do to "max out" melee:

• Condition Overload/Primed Pressure Point - rare mod drop/40k endo
• Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds - Deimos bounties, ~20k endo
• Primed Reach - 40k endo
• Primed Fury/Berserker Fury - 40k endo, login reward/rare mod drop
• Other mods (elementals, dual stats, combo duration, stances etc) - easy enough to get (aside from some stances)
• Around 2-3 Polarities per melee (depending on the build archetype) - however many forma that takes (including innate polarities)
• (Extra) Primed Fever Strike - 40k endo

Aside from additional stance collecting, this covers the vast majority of melees.

 

Things to obtain/do to "max out" guns:

• Serration/Hornet Strike/Primed Point Blank - 20k/20k/40k endo
• Galvanized Chamber/Diffusion/Hell - 30k/30k/30k endo, 20/20/20 vitus essence
• (Secondaries) Primed Pistol Gambit - 40k endo
• (Secondaries/Shotguns) Primed Target Cracker/Primed Ravage - 40k/40k endo
• (Primaries/Secondaries) Galvanized Scope/Crosshairs - 30k/30k endo, 20/20 vitus essence
• Galvanized Aptitude/Shot/Savvy - 30k/30k/30k endo, 20/20/20 vitus essence
• Other mods (elementals, dual stats, fire rate) - easy to get
• Primary/Secondary Arcanes - at least 126 acolyte kills for all 6 sets of 21 (sets should build up at similar rates, assuming even drop distribution)
• 1 Exilus weapon adapter per weapon (where applicable/desired) - 1 forma, rare requiem relic drop/75k syndicate standing
• Upwards of 6 polarities per weapon (often 8 or even all 9 when using Exilus and a Riven mod) - even with base polarities, this is regularly 4-5+ forma (excluding Kuva/Tenet weapons, which get 80 capacity with 5 forma, which is often plenty)
• 1 Arcane slot unlocker per weapon to use those arcanes - 15 Steel essence each
• (Extra) Primed elemental/reload/magazine mods - 40k endo each

One set covers one weapon type, while all three sets are needed to cover all primaries/secondaries

I haven't mentioned Catalysts, because they go on 100% of (full) builds. I also haven't listed Rivens, because they are on a per-weapon (and very RNG) basis, and Primed Faction Damage mods, because they are niche/situational.

There are also some other things, like Focus Passives (Naramon/Zenurik for melee combo counter/efficiency), and frame-slotted Arcanes, but these are external to the weapons themselves.

 

That just about covers it, I think?

Aaaaaaaaaand I've written another long was-meant-to-be-short post - I seem to do that a lot.

 

In short, buffs seem good, but it'll be one chonker of a grind/endo/time investment to obtain said buffs, especially for players progressing up through the game.

[Balegrim]

On 2021-07-06 at 12:35 PM, ABlindGuyPlays said:

That or make it 'on hit' like how melee combo works. One would think the people who designed these would go 'what makes melee strong? all these mods that depend on combo counter. Why is combo counter so good? Because it's easy to achive with it being on hit. i know let's make it on hit for these new effects so players can eaisly ramp into them with guns that have trouble killing. I'm sure glad we went with that instead of requiring guns that have trouble killing to only get stronger if they kill things. That would have been a boneheaded move that would have made the meta weapons mroe meta, and non meta weapons irrelevant.'

You guys can still change how the mods work y'know. Make the condition 'on hit' instead of 'on kill' and suddenly these things become a hell of a lot better. No other change needed. 

This, but on status effect or on crit would be better depending on whether its a crit or status based galvanized mod. 

[Shining_Darkness]

Galvanized Mods and new Arcanes are awful =/
They breed only hatred and unfun between players cos everyone is forced to fight for kills...
It's same reason I and my friends hated Nidus's crit augment, it's cos my teammates keep stealing my kills faster than I can fkn do the necessary combo. It's especially brutal if they play Saryn or Equinox bleed build...

[Andele3025]

9 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Uncalled for.....those animations were made by real people and I personally love the animations. Calling things that people worked hard on "trash" isn't constructive feedback.

No.

The animations were made by taking animations made with love by real people, chopping them to bits and then using animation locks as glue without even bothering to align the frame properly in a lot of cases causing spazms. Thankfully relatively recently the more egregious cases were given camera smoothing, but the frame still spazzes left right between obviously once separate and not connected swings.
Just look at how gloriously smooth old TR was and how not only did it get filled with animation locks, lose its keyboard steer, but also had its original block combo (August Mesto) perfect for block forward with actually good hitboxes, but instead we got the janky old pause combo whose already then slightly wonky hitbox was made worse by making it lose its entire left side on the first half of the slide for no reason other than it was probably part of the prior attack which during chopping got lost.
And its not like you couldnt chop up a at least decent setup of what TRs free movement forward, static and block forward combos could be.

[(PSN)DidelphisV]

Galvanised Aptitude (and it’s siblings) need a buff. Currently there’s not really any point in using them over something like heavy calibre in terms of damage (and even Hammershot is basically better for crit weapons)

A conditional 80% doesn’t really stack up to a free 165% 

[Lelepagozeze]

As per the update notes every player owning a Kuva Nukor is supposed to get 2 built Forma upon Login.
I did not receive those although i owned one as the Update launched.
I can only assume that this is due to the script checking whether there is any playtime on a weapon instead of it actually being owned, same seems so be true for the profile where owned weapons are greyed out until you used them somewhere that counts your playtime.

[kacmed]

10 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Uncalled for.....those animations were made by real people and I personally love the animations. Calling things that people worked hard on "trash" isn't constructive feedback.

there is a video by some warframe youtuber who asked martial artist to analyze those movements ... and they teared it to the shreds - so far the realism of those moves ... secondary - i am playing this game for a long time and i never even payed attention what my char is doing with his hands ... i am looking at enemies turning into pasta
ofc some people could like those animations why not ... but as far as i saw some pools done by youtubers ... most people don't care about them at all, everybody busy watching enemies and not your frame swinging hands :)

[kacmed]

10 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

Oh quit with your asinine hyperbole. Melee isn't dead. Far from it.

I once left an Extinguished Dragon Key (-75%) equipped by accident and I didn't notice any difference in my ability to kill enemies. 

If that doesn't justify that melee needed to be toned down somewhat, then you really are deluded. 

i am really sorry that i expressed my point of view ... oh wait this is exactly what is thread is about

i never said meele is dead ... with this changes meele is still superior to guns ... i just stated they should avoid removing fun parts of the game because in the end ... its PVE so nobody really cares how crazy OP you could be ... well maybe DEVS because they wanna protect NPC's???? i dont get it honestly 
 

[Mr_Garrito]

7 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They spawn by killing. This was stated in the original post by the devs even. It's likely some kind of mix of randomness which is further catalyzed by killing. I can make them spawn at the 3 min 30 sec in survival or around 3:30 to 4:30.

Naturally....those non endless missions are ran through fast by public matches....skipping enemies and going to the objective. 

Are you under the absurd impression that I spent the entirety of the time waited not killing anything and just stood still?

[enizer]

Some of these changes like the kuva nukor admittedly had it coming.
However on the whole, I feel that whatever goal you had in mind, you missed the mark.
Weapon builds I was not using because they were overpowered to the point of boring, still exactly the same kind of broken.

Primaries are still my lowest DPS and least interesting weapon category.(admittedly I dont have a lot of the arcanes yet, but on-kill triggers only help the top 1% of weapons and do nothing for the rest)
Weapons I was actually having fun with, like glaives, now feel slower, which is just counter to how this game runs, please dont make ANYTHING slow.
Perhaps you were targeting some specific builds I wasnt making?
Why are red crits bad? I miss doing lots of red crits, they were FUN.

Also why did glaives need to be slower? did anyone actually accidentally throw them on the regular?(possible console problem?)
Seriously I'd love to hear from someone that had that problem, because I used glaives for months now and accidental throws are almost nonexistant for me.
Now it's too slow to be fun, I dont want to stop and do nothing for a full second waiting for one weapon attack.
Oh well, back to an overkill but uninteresting melee weapon I guess?

[AJAL8000]

Melee feel awful to handle, and yes, obviously the primaries and secondaries weapons too. (Because the "On-Kill")

[AJAL8000]

It is depressing. I don't know if several of the community feel the way I do, but it is depressing to know that no matter how many times we tell them our feedback about the changes, we know that they will ignore them and will continue to make bad decisions, honestly, with 6 years playing straight and nearly 9000 hours logged by Steam. It is the first time that I feel the strong feeling of sadness and desire to quit the game.

I already stopped trusting you. You said it wasn't just going to be melee nerf and primaries buff and that's exactly what you did. The game feels oversaturated with farming and the melees have become awkward to use. Buffs on primary and secondary weapons are poor ("On-Kill" haha). And it just makes the division of the arsenal bigger. You made the problem even bigger and you ignored the community. This is just sad to me. 

I do not think it is necessary to tell you the details, because many in the forums have already done so and with various details. Just listen and understand your own game.
(And yes, various nerfs were needed and buffs as well. But what you guys did now with the mods is on another level of mediocrity.)

 

[Maka.Bones]

It's absolutely ridiculous that you removed the Helios & Deconstruction synergy for melee weapons. 

That was absolutely unecessary for any semblance of "balance" or even less for BUFFING PRIMARIES. 

please undo this, and let Helios / deconstuctor also work for buffing melee weapons. 

 

On a Side-Note, "Oversight" my arse. Quit trying to tell small lies, it just makes you guys look bad. If you want to do something this bad, just own up to it. 

[Maka.Bones]

The status galvanized mods, feel extremely underwhelming. 

 

Please let them stack higher than x2 and/or make it multiplicative. 

[GreyEnneract]

If I perfectly forma every slot on my weapon, I should be able to use any build I want.
Yet I can't because your mods have arbitrary insanely high capacities, with no stance or aura slot to increase capacity.
It's physically impossible to fit this build because of it.
Thanks for "valuing our time".

[Andele3025]

14 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

If I perfectly forma every slot on my weapon, I should be able to use any build I want.
Yet I can't because your mods have arbitrary insanely high capacities, with no stance or aura slot to increase capacity.
It's physically impossible to fit this build because of it.
Thanks for "valuing our time".

>riven (ontop of PHC instead of 60/60 AND double crit chance mod waste)

Yeah i see why you might be having problems trying to fit 12 mods worth of stuff on a 9 slot weapon without even optimizing.

[TheLexiConArtist]

12 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

They spawn by killing. This was stated in the original post by the devs even. It's likely some kind of mix of randomness which is further catalyzed by killing. I can make them spawn at the 3 min 30 sec in survival or around 3:30 to 4:30.

Naturally....those non endless missions are ran through fast by public matches....skipping enemies and going to the objective. 

More specifically, the timer commences on a kill, but also seemingly pauses on dropping combat, and the actual spawn is gated on a kill (can be 'overdue' until you kill something, which immediately flickers the lighting). The catchment window was approximately 3:30 to 8, probably now reduced to 3-6 minutes.

I'm not totally certain actively being in combat without kills - e.g. standing around poking shields and taking/blocking bullets - keeps the timer progressing. Best reliability is to keep killing an enemy every 10-20 seconds or so, but obviously this is only possible to control with certainty if you're alone.

43 minutes ago, Andele3025 said:

>riven (ontop of PHC instead of 60/60 AND double crit chance mod waste)

Yeah i see why you might be having problems trying to fit 12 mods worth of stuff on a 9 slot weapon without even optimizing.

Modding should be fair across items. If one can fit more expensive mods due to capacity enhancements, then they all should be capable of fitting the same (albeit possibly with less flexibility due to more polarities required).

That, and the whole Polarity system was designed when there were only a couple expensive mods per category, not enough to want to fit them in every slot, so that's another obsolete design that doesn't serve its original intention and needs reworking.

[Andele3025]

1 hour ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

Modding should be fair across items. If one can fit more expensive mods due to capacity enhancements, then they all should be capable of fitting the same (albeit possibly with less flexibility due to more polarities required).

That, and the whole Polarity system was designed when there were only a couple expensive mods per category, not enough to want to fit them in every slot, so that's another obsolete design that doesn't serve its original intention and needs reworking.

When modding.
Not when buying P2W gacha lootboxes.

[AgasKahn]

The 2 critical chance mods (galvanized) aren't solid, being frank its bad, very bad
the problem radicates in the trigger "headshoot kill"
in steel path or arbitrations, there are many enemies and particles but i can shoot in the head of enemies, however, they are more likely to die from statuses or another player's ability, than from my headshot making it impossible to activate more than two instances of this mod or I simply lose the instances

I tried it with
rubico prime
lanka
normal and prime vectis
grinlok prism
and others  

they should change the trigger to just "headshot"
or increase the time from 12 to 20 seconds
so at least it would have the same consistency with the other mods

however all the triggers (from galvanized mods) themselves are not well tested, forcing to kill an enemy without those advantages is almost a death sentence, and it is still more solid to go to melee, that by the way are you killled many weapons of that category

rip my beautiful build of lacera ceti

[shoot_gun_man]

I would have put something here, but to be perfectly honest, I'd just be yelling at a brick wall at this point. 
By the way, what ever happened to test clusters?

[LillyRaccune]

Feedback category: Melee mod changes

Feedback target: Berserker Fury

Feedback type: contructive critisism with small change suggestion

Feedback request summary (TL;DR version): change from: "up to 2x", to "up to 70%"

 

Until the Arsenal Divide update, I would often use the unranked version of Berserker:

• +5% Attack Speed on Crit (up to 75%)

The key point I'm highlighting is the "up to 75%" part. There are many situations where I do not use a fully ranked mod. Making the listed change:

• Berserker is changing from:+30% Attack Speed (Max 75%) for 24s on Critical Hit
  To:On Melee Kill:+35% Attack Speed (Max 70%)  for 10s. Stacks up to 2x. 

The current change makes anything less than max rank of the mod to become less useful. I am not arguing for or against any other component of this mod. I just want to be able to continue using my "budget build" melee builds with as few forma as possible.

Unranked Berserker Fury and unranked Life Strike are a utility on many of my weapons. I would like to keep using that utility. Please allow the "up to 70%" threshold to exist, otherwise I will be unable to make meaningful use of a majority of melee weapons.

Thank you.

[Yamazuki]

On-kill conditions are a poor thing for mods in general. Not only does this completely ignore the multi-player aspect of the game, or the alleged weapon swapping aspect, but this means every single piece of content has to have a constant stream of enemies [which all don't] in order to stack and maintain the stats.

On-kill conditions, whether that's berserker or the new mods, all favor weapons with already favorable stats to begin with. The conditions should have just been on-hit, even if it needed a cooldown between stacks, and Berserker could have just required additional stacks. The issue with "permanent" stat boost [the logic for nerfing Bersrker] make no sense, Berserker and the new mods on strong weapons are going to be permanent boosts anyways.

Then there's the issue of Bersrker and P-Fury, and the issue isn't them no longer stacking together, but the reason why they no longer do just highlights the separate issue that only a small fraction of weapons even get any semblance of attention. When the melee changes went out, melee weapon reach was "standardized" but other important stats like crit and attack speed weren't. Most melee weapons don't reach red crits with normal combos at 12x even if you used Gladiotor alongside Blood Rush, and some have insanely low attackspeed that P-Fury and Berserker were an absolute requirement for them to even be usable to begin with. Some are slow to the point even with bvoth mods and a riven on top they would be barely above normal speed with Berserker alone.

Weapons realistically can't be balanced around just mods and arcanes, because the effectiveness of them is entirely dependent on the stats the weapons start with. There is also the very obvious issue surrounding enemy armor scaling, which is what has caused complaints multiple times already. Railjack Grineer units highlighted the armor problem and led to changes, but with the introduction of SP, the armor problem was brought back due to high armor and hp values. The general Infested and Corpus units in SP still die very quickly, where as the Grineer continue to be their usual problem for anyone not using meta setups, or game-breaking combinations.

[Xikto]

Galvanized crit mods don't function the same way other galvanized mods do, if the timer runs out it doesn't just remove one of the stacks, it removes everything, and considering how horrible "on headshot kill" is for a condition, i can say firmly that using it is waste of a mod slot.
On kill isn't a good condition but if you give it up to 1 minute in duration it can work, but then you have on headshot which should have similar if not longer duration having a capped 12s duration.

Like honestly did you even test these?
even at a lvl 50 mission i could tell how garbage this mod is let alone steel path!

[Wolfwaffe]

DE: We're adding galvanized mods and arcanas for guns that trigger on kill to help fighting Steel Path enemies with guns.

Meanwhile, Steel Path enemies when shot be like:

Spoiler

 

[Xikto]

In pistols which had some of the highest forma requirement (and the lowest performance in return btw) you increased our total forma cost AGAIN, 
Barrel diffusion 11   Galvanized barrel diffusion 14.

Thank you for this amazing pistol buff that totally is worth needing 5-6 forma, it totally isn't like pistols are highly underused and you should have even reduced their forma requirements!  *SLOW CLAP*