It's time to nerf Wukong

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, -Kittens- said:

1 hour ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Ahem, Yareli.  Cough cough, Hydroid.

Because no one plays them and DE isn't going to pay a main designer to normalize legacy content when they can make you pay 200 dollars or more for sidegrades.

The fact that this comment is in a Wukong thread is comedy gold.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, MysteriousTenno said:

1 hour ago, Leqesai said:

 

1 hour ago, MysteriousTenno said:

Let's nerf Saryn instead, or Mirage clones, or Octavia everything (who literally can be invisible none stop with cc and dmg) and etc :3 An old pal Wukong just fast dude with 2 fun abilities and 2 meh. He nothing compare to nuke frames that we have more than one. His popularity probably just coz it's fun frame for new players. U can easily counter his cloud speed with Titania prime super crazy flying or operator fast dashes with arcane that gives warframe insta heals, or Gauss with his dashes and etc.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

24 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

Isn't it interesting how the Venn diagram of people who don't want Wukong to be nerfed and who think AFKing is ok is basically a circle?

Isn't it interesting how the claims you make and the claims you back up is basically an 8?

[-Kittens-]

18 minutes ago, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu said:

The fact that this comment is in a Wukong thread is comedy gold.

The comedy gold is you trying to defend bad design by pointing out bad design.

[Erasculio]

19 minutes ago, Leqesai said:

Clone stops working if a player becomes AFK

 Irrelevant. Warframe has an Inactivity Penalty that prevents people from getting the mission rewards. The time the clone takes to stop working is the same that it takes to active the penalty and thus make the AFKing useless.

In other words, if you're going to AFK, you have to move once in a while or kill something. If you take a look at the Wukong AFKers, they'll move once in a while so they get credit. This is enough to keep the clone active.

This also highlights the flaw in claiming Wukong is bad for AFKing since the clone kills give warframe affinity. Not only is little weapon affinity better than no affinity at all, but also affinity is irrelevant when you consider end of missions rewards. The Wukong AFKing in sorties aren't doing it to level up weapons, they're doing it for sorties rewards.

11 minutes ago, Old_Fogie said:

Lol, wow bro, your really bent on being narrow minded over this, arn't you. As for a circle, your strawman arguments over a Venn diagram ( which is vastly ironic coming from you btw) are invalid.

You are not capable of replying to my arguments and so have to resort to using ad hominem. But go on, keep saying that being AFK is ok and that Wukong is fine as he is.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

9 minutes ago, -Kittens- said:

The comedy gold is you trying to defend bad design by pointing out bad design.

Comedy platinum would be you trying to find anything even vaguely resembling a defense in my posts in this thread thus far. This thread is a mess, and I'm just here to laugh at it.

[BiancaRoughfin]

2 hours ago, Erasculio said:

• The first ability is too passive. It's basically a permanent turret that allows a player to be AFK most of the time, while the Celestial Twin kills stuff.
• The second ability makes movement too easy. People can just cloud across the map, while avoiding all content there.

These are two of the main points i bring up a lot about Wukong when complaining about him then just as your post it gets littered with spoiled players that dont agree about the Nerf or others that use the dumb "Why not buff rest?" argument that cant do the math.

I felt disgusted a few months ago when i joined a Sorties mission and there was 3 Wukongs (1 normal, 2 Primes) in my squad with me as Zephyr.

2 hours ago, Erasculio said:

1. Celestial Twin: summons a Celestial Twin that attacks your current target with your currently equipped weapon. Lasts for 5 second or until the enemies dies, whichever comes first.

The ability then goes from a very "fire and forget" position (it's the ultimate "f&f" ability in the game) to something far more active. Notice how it requires an enemy to be used.

I think the Twin should reflect the player entirely, it should have the exact same health/shield/armor the player has built on to their frame and do the same damage instead of double. As for Duration it should last 20 sec without mods.

2 hours ago, Erasculio said:

2. Cloud Walker: turns into an invunerable cloud while healing yourself. You cannot move while this ability is in effect; trying to move cancels the effect.

No more clouding around to skip the game. The ability becomes a defensive tool with a nice self heal, nothing more.

The ability should keep its mobility but remove the Healing and either have the cloud act as a slower blink with limited range or reduce its movement speed by half and have the cloud slowly gain speed wile also increasing the energy drain.

2 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

How about instead of nerfing Wukong (who is enjoyable to play and useful without being overpowered or breaking any content) we give some love and attention to frames that are useless, outdated, underbaked, or any combination of the three?  Ahem, Yareli.  Cough cough, Hydroid.

See? Second Post and we already got one with the "Not nerf but buff others" mentality.

Other frames will get their reworks in time, still some frames are just so overly powerful and overly used they deserve a nerf no matter how worst some other frames are.

2 hours ago, Leqesai said:

At least the clone kills stuff unlike when people go AFK with other frames.

If that argument was valid in anyway, botting wouldnt be against the rules would it? The whole idea of the game is for you to Participate and actually play, not let something or someone else do the playing for you, that being the reason why AFKing is a game rule infringement.

[sunderthefirmament]

4 minutes ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

 

See? Second Post and we already got one with the "Not nerf but buff others" mentality.

Other frames will get their reworks in time, still some frames are just so overly powerful and overly used they deserve a nerf no matter how worst some other frames are.

 

My mentality is more that developer resources are finite so they should be spent elsewhere.  They just said during Tennocon that no reworks are planned due to that taking resources away from new content.  So no, we don't necessarily know that other frames will get reworks.  Heck, we don't even know if Yareli, our newest frame, is going to be made even remotely relevant.  Ever.

 

Wukong's rework was a massive success.  He is a useful generalist.  He doesn't outclass anyone at any one activity (except speedrunning spy missions, which... why would you even do that?), though he has many, many uses.  The popularity of his rework should be a blueprint for future reworks.  And, if DE is smart, they can time these reworks with a prime release, unvaulting, or deluxe skin, as they did for Wukong.  That way they can help pay for the developer resources spent on it.  I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I would certainly buy Hydroid's deluxe skin if he got a rework.

[Erasculio]

2 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Wukong's rework was a massive success.  He is a useful generalist.  He doesn't outclass anyone at any one activity (except speedrunning spy missions, which... why would you even do that?), though he has many, many uses.  The popularity of his rework should be a blueprint for future reworks. 

Wrong. Wukong outclasses other warframes at being AFK.

And I watched TennoCon too. DE's argument was that reworks don't really change how many players use a given warframe - the great majority of the time, reworking a warframe didn't lead to more people playing it.

Wukong quite clearly was the exception. And why? Because it's easier to be a AFKer/leecher/exploiter with the reworked Wukong than with any other warframe.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

3 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

Wukong outclasses other warframes at being AFK.

Breaking news: Some frames outclass some frames at some stuff. More at 11.

[sunderthefirmament]

3 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

Wrong. Wukong outclasses other warframes at being AFK.

And I watched TennoCon too. DE's argument was that reworks don't really change how many players use a given warframe - the great majority of the time, reworking a warframe didn't lead to more people playing it.

Wukong quite clearly was the exception. And why? Because it's easier to be a AFKer/leecher/exploiter with the reworked Wukong than with any other warframe.

Here, let me try:

 

Wrong.  In my experience, I don't see Wukong's AFKing any more than any other frame.  In fact, the only AFKer I can even recall was a Nova who used her 3 to get to a weird area to hide during a defense mission.

 

My experience is every bit as valid as yours, but I'm not calling for Nova to be nerfed.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

2 hours ago, Erasculio said:

• The first ability is too passive. It's basically a permanent turret that allows a player to be AFK most of the time, while the Celestial Twin kills stuff.
• The second ability makes movement too easy. People can just cloud across the map, while avoiding all content there.

1: its a celestial twin. nerfing it to be duration based would do practically nothing. its purpose is to become a 2nd gun to aid wukong, which it does just fine.

 

2: hey, remember when cloud walker moved at a snail's pace and had absolutely no utility whatsoever? yeah, so do I, and it sucked

 

Wukong is fine. he doesn't bend the game over his knee and spank it like the jade king did to him, so he's fine.

[Erasculio]

35 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Wrong.  In my experience, I don't see Wukong's AFKing any more than any other frame. In fact, the only AFKer I can even recall was a Nova who used her 3 to get to a weird area to hide during a defense mission.

I was going to say something else, but I have noticed that you're one of the few people in this discussion who's not claiming that being AFK is perfectly acceptable (other than the useless spammer, of course).

The flaw in your argument is that Wukong is objectively better than Nova, or Limbo, or any other frame at being AFK. With a clone that allows him to kill a few enemies and hide the fact that he's AFKing, a passive that gives extra lives, and very fast horizontal and vertical mobility to quickly rush to the end of the mission after the objective has been achieved, there's no one better at leeching than Wukong. Some other frames may have parts of that (Limbo is hard to kill, Titania is fast, etc), but with other drawbacks and without all those traits.

So it doesn't surprise me that you haven't seen more Wukongs being AFK. They probably were AFK, but the Celestial Twin was moving and you didn't realize they were just leeching.

[Leqesai]

1 hour ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

If that argument was valid in anyway, botting wouldnt be against the rules would it? The whole idea of the game is for you to Participate and actually play, not let something or someone else do the playing for you, that being the reason why AFKing is a game rule infringement.

You're not following the logic here. What I'm saying is that a player has to, at the very least, push a button every two minutes for the twin to remain active. If they are leeching then the twin actually works against them gaining affinity and ends up benefiting the other players. If someone wants to leech it makes more sense to use a frame that actually leeches rather than a frame that gives their teammates affinity... 

I'm not saying I like it when people barely participate but I would rather play with a wukong that has a clone killing stuff than a limbo that sits in the rift the whole mission killing nothing. 

1 hour ago, Erasculio said:

 Irrelevant. Warframe has an Inactivity Penalty that prevents people from getting the mission rewards. The time the clone takes to stop working is the same that it takes to active the penalty and thus make the AFKing useless.

In other words, if you're going to AFK, you have to move once in a while or kill something. If you take a look at the Wukong AFKers, they'll move once in a while so they get credit. This is enough to keep the clone active.

This also highlights the flaw in claiming Wukong is bad for AFKing since the clone kills give warframe affinity. Not only is little weapon affinity better than no affinity at all, but also affinity is irrelevant when you consider end of missions rewards. The Wukong AFKing in sorties aren't doing it to level up weapons, they're doing it for sorties rewards.

Read the rest of my response and don't cherry pick a few words to push your argument. I addressed the issues you raised. 

[Leqesai]

27 minutes ago, Erasculio said:

So it doesn't surprise me that you haven't seen more Wukongs being AFK. They probably were AFK, but the Celestial Twin was moving and you didn't realize they were just leeching.

I'd put money on you thinking people are AFK when they actually aren't. I bet this has happened quite a few times given the way you're responding in this thread. You seem insistent on pushing an issue that is not actually an issue simply because you want it to be true. You have also been explained multiple times why Celestial Twin works against AFK leeching. But I'll explain it again:

1. Celestial Twin shuts off when a player goes inactive. This means true AFK play doesn't work

2. Celestial Twin also constantly gets kills. Kills with Celestial Twin only count towards Warframe Affinity. People who leech get global affinity (warframe + primary + secondary + melee). Using Celestial Twin means AFK players actually end up with less affinity than they would otherwise.

3. Celestial Twin constantly getting kills ends up benefiting the other players because its kills count as global affinity to them. 

So ultimately you're whining about an ability that does nothing but hinder the person using it, because you don't like the way people choose to play the game? If you're playing with someone who is AFK, it is better that they're AFK with wukong because at least then you'll leech some global affinity from their laziness. They could go AFK with Limbo much easier and pull in higher affinity numbers. 

 

I think you just need to get over it. They're not going to change Wukong just because you don't like that he's the most popular Warframe (based on the metric you shared). And they're sure not going to change Wukong because you think people are abusing him to go AFK. People go AFK with all the frames and there are frames (like Limbo) that are simply more obnoxious than Wukong if people are going to go down this road. At least with Wukong they're contributing to the kill count while AFK. Unless you're salty that they're outperforming you without trying...

[Kripnex]

Wukong is sort of a jack of all trades, and his near non-existent need for energy makes him easy to use.
His potential for afking is also nice, it prevents the game from keeping you prisoner, though playing solo is the best solution for that.
The only thing overpowered about him is how comfortable he is, you don't even need to think how to mod him, just go with whatever.

I haven't even noticed any afkers lately, and apart from a few exceptions like Arbitration Defense, I wouldn't even care about them, the enemies you don't kill will be the enemies I kill, not everyone sees afkers in the same light: some of us don't see them at all, you just have to get better so that leechers don't matter.

Also I think we can all agree that this game is pretty diabolical with how it eats your time and demands your attention, so I don't blame the afkers, they are probably tired of all this farming and want to make themselves a coffee and a sandwich while their character gathers some loot... Wukong is not a problem at all, and I actually believe the game should become more afk-friendly, at least in solo-mode, and while farming mundane things like resources, because the game is too high-intensity all the time, a refuge is needed, a bubble of low-intensity gameplay for players that want to make some progress in the game but don't feel like dedicating their whole attention to the screen, something that is as relaxed as fishing in runescape, and hopefully this will allow them to recover their stamina and start playing properly when they switch to online-mode.

[Vesterbro]

8 hours ago, Erasculio said:

Wukong (Prime) has the same issues: it's an outlier that deserves a nerf. It has two main issues:

• The first ability is too passive. It's basically a permanent turret that allows a player to be AFK most of the time, while the Celestial Twin kills stuff.
• The second ability makes movement too easy. People can just cloud across the map, while avoiding all content there.

Couldn't agree more, Wukong is too passive, too convenient

[faizdikra]

Agree, but not with your suggestion. I still remember back days on some Devstream (totally forget which one) that DE wants some variety composition squad for each mode. So here my suggestion:

1. Celestial Twin: Make it "true" channeling abilities, either drain energy each second or drain each kills.
2. Cloud Walker: No... dont make it like that, i still want to do brain dead Spy with him (plus Perspicacity from Helminth skill) LOL. No heal and no clearing status effect is okay, but let him skip through all the laser from Spy mode. 🤣

Actually i just use him for Spy (except in Kuva Fortress and Lua) and Rescue mission.

[Andele3025]

8 hours ago, Leqesai said:

Cloudwalker was already nerfed by having it not retain momentum, as far as I know. I believe it used to be even faster than it is now.

I know, it used to just amp movement to a fixed value keeping all speed buffs. ATM it only retains a few (slightly buggy) ways to retain increased speed. Thus exactly why i said since the slightly above mobilize+decent bullet jump mobility of it is a massive draw to wu for the quick kill missions as part of being a players "universal use frame".

[Tiltskillet]

9 hours ago, Erasculio said:

Between those two points, and to a lesser degree Wukong's passives (which basically allows an AFK player to be killed a few times without any repercussion), Wukong is perfect for degenerate gameplay: stay AFK while other players do stuff, moving very once in a while, and then cloud to extraction when people have done all the work for you.

My impression is I do see a few more AFK Wukongs than any other single frame. 

OTOH, I also see -a lot- more actively playing Wukongs than any other single frame.

Honestly, I think Pablo overdid it with the clone and Cloudwalker, but I think the rework's effect on promoting AFK behaviors was minimal.   I'd say the main and cascading effect it had was making Wukong the most popular choice for running fast missions even faster.  And for better or worse, that's a lot of what the game is about. 

10 hours ago, Erasculio said:

This is made worse by how Warframe protects AFKers. There's not even a report option for those players.

I'm not sure what you mean.  The "Report User menu is as open as can be--you don't need a special option.  To wit:

https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200287090-How-to-deal-with-Cheaters-AFKing-trolling-

 

Quote

 

How do I deal with Cheaters, AFKing, or Trolls?

If you encounter someone you believe to be cheating, take screenshots/videos, take note of the users alias and what is causing you to believe he is cheating/hacking. Submit a ticket under the report a user category with as much information as possible.

Users who are mission griefing, AFKing can also be reported in the report a user category. Please provide screenshots or videos of the users behavior as proof for the support staff. Be sure to take note of the users alias and provide as much information as possible.

 

 

 

Sorry you've had so much trouble with AFKers.  Outside of Spy and Rescue sorties, which are over in minutes anyway, an obvious AFK player has been a once in a blue moon thing for me,

 

 

[Soy77]

Wukong is vaulted.

If your problem is wu's use rate, it's already solved. Starting from now, it WILL go down.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

His 4 is already garbage.

If anything he needs a buff.

Seriously, if you people are going to scream and cry over a Warframe being “too strong” then pick a frame where the argument actually has some weight to it.

[IMP_102]

15 hours ago, Erasculio said:

Wukong (Prime) has the same issues: it's an outlier that deserves a nerf. It has two main issues:

• The first ability is too passive. It's basically a permanent turret that allows a player to be AFK most of the time, while the Celestial Twin kills stuff.
• The second ability makes movement too easy. People can just cloud across the map, while avoiding all content there.

Would bet that like 90 percent of Wukong usage comes from fast relic runs. The kicker here is that he is not even the best at it. Those who know how to parkour and navigate well can easily perform better than Wukong in frames like Gaus and Volt and we shall not mention Titania here either.

I don't think there is anything broken about Wukong, it is just a comfy warframe for general use. Mine is Nezha, it's pretty much a default select for me for a lot of stuff for much the same reasons, it's reasonably fast, warding halo grants knockdown and status immunity, allows you simply not to care about all these inconvenient traps like door lasers/disruption fields etc.

So nah, nothing OP here, just a comfy frame.

[Colyeses]

Just because something gets picked a lot, doesn't mean it needs nerfs. It might not be that Wukong is too strong, but that the majority of alternatives are too weak.

We have a veritable ton of junk-frames, bump those up and make them better.

I'd nerf Mesa long before I'd nerf Wukong.

[Yamazuki]

The OP plainly acknowledges Wukong isn't as useful of a Warframe, yet is demanding Wukong be nerfed even more than it has.

The "passive" argument makes no sense either. A lot of Warframes are either blob of stats or abilities with indefinite duration, or long enough duration to fill their job.

Then there's the flawed logic of contributing leeching behavior to Wukong's existence. I have played the game long before Wukong was reworked, and guess what? People still leeched through content for affinity or through sorties for the daily reward. Even after Wukong's rework, I still see people afking as Limbo, Renewal Oberon, etc.

When Railjack was released, and later Murex SS missions, I couldn't go a single pub run without there being one or two people pretending to be contributing when they weren't actually doing anything. Neither were Wukong, not that Wukong's Twin would be doing anything given they don't use RJ weapons or forge.

As for his mobility, it's not Wukong's fault you're slow. His Cloudwalker was already nerfed multiple times and is much slower than it was.

As for op's stat reference:

PC | All

Wukong: 9.14% | 8.3%

Excal: 7.41% | 8.77%

I was unaware 7.41 [8.77] x 2 = 9.14 [8.3].

Not that Warframe usage stats in general mean a whole lot. Warframe usage stats differ by content, and event. Limbo isn't anywhere near the top, but he was spammed enough for Murex SS that he got nerfed. Khora got on DE's radar because she was a dominant pick for farming SP, and for the record, Khora could "afk" farm better than Wukong. These two Warframes shine in content types that aren't found in general play. Warframe's general "grind" consists of rush from starting point to objective that takes 3 seconds, then rush to extraction.

Having more mission types, or even events at a higher frequency like games normally do.... that aren't simply run from A to B to C really fast would be enough to inflate the usage of other Warframes.