AoE Changes - subtle but impactful? [post Devstream discussion]

[(PSN)Cargan2016]

3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I do think LoS and self stagger is still something that should be considered , but we shall see.

 

What about you guys?

there already is self stagger if you dont use primse surefooted which i dont use the slot for other things.  would it be nice but see other benifits better use for the slot.  I stagger my self all the time if i hit too close to me

[(PSN)Unstar]

Feeling positive.  Plus it's also great to know that they have Plan B waiting in the wings for if the first round isn't enough.

Additionally, I really appreciate Pablo being so transparent in addressing the reasons why they're making these changes and the goal of making these changes.  Hopefully that will help a lot of people understand what's going on in a way that doesn't just feel like mom is taking their space toys away because they hate fun.

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

I am disgusted by the reasoning used to make the changes they decided to make.
I think they're just making things less fun overall.
I personally don't use AoE weapons or Wukong, so I'm not mad about things changing for me, but it sets a terrible (IMO) pattern that I highly despise as a lover of fun and not caring what makes other people happy. Generally changes "like this" only lead to a more boring game over time... slowly chipping away at what players have at their disposal.

[p_silveira]

3 minutes ago, (PSN)Cargan2016 said:

there already is self stagger if you dont use primse surefooted which i dont use the slot for other things.  would it be nice but see other benifits better use for the slot.  I stagger my self all the time if i hit too close to me

I mean, there is, but with PSF around and a plethora of warframe abilities, passives and even companions that can fully negate it, it's almost as if it doesn't even exist.

[(XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Ammo pickups will be greater for those weapons with a greater ammo pool , and less for those with a smaller ammo pool ,

Ammo overall will drop less as well,

Bramma gets by with 1 arrow per ammo already, so don't see an appreciable change there.

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Primed blast range mods will have their radius reduced to 44% at max

Firestorm nerfed for the sins of big boy Kuva/Tenet AoEs. Now it gets to be to be even more worthless for all low range AoE, while the big boys still get to play.

What should've been done is actually rebalancing the "big boy" AoEs (The Zarrs, Brammas, Envoys, Ogris, Tonkor, Sporelacer, Akarius) then seeing what needs to be done.

[Dunkelheit]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PSN)AyinDygra:

I am disgusted by the reasoning used to make the changes they decided to make.
I think they're just making things less fun overall.
I personally don't use AoE weapons or Wukong, so I'm not mad about things changing for me, but it sets a terrible (IMO) pattern that I highly despise as a lover of fun and not caring what makes other people happy. Generally changes "like this" only lead to a more boring game over time... slowly chipping away at what players have at their disposal.

The changes are kinda subtle, why do you think this way? They did not even nerf the powerlevel of Wukong, they just made him more active to play. Why is that so bad? Why should a more engaging gameplay lead to a more boring game? For me it is the opposite, but maybe you can explain a bit better.

[KIREEK]

Well, i mainly use hildryn balefire, the weapon mechanics differ quite alot, for starters there was never self damage, so when it was an issue for everyone, this warframe didn't suffer from it.
Then, they changed it to knockback, which didn't affect balefire, so nothing changed.

Now, they want this ammo and ammo pickups to matter in a certain way, but sadly, balefire uses shields, so we still have infinite ammo.

I understand that the change to the mods will affect the maximum range of balefire, so it's going to be the 1st actual change i will feel since.......forever really and initially i didn't even know the range mods for secondary affected balefire, so i'm fairly used to having the equivalent to a 0% explosion radius mod, it being 66% or 44% isn't a very big issue, sure it's going to be less range overall, but AOE will still be king.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom:

Bramma gets by with 1 arrow per ammo already, so don't see an appreciable change there.

Firestorm nerfed for the sins of big boy Kuva/Tenet AoEs. Now it gets to be to be even more worthless for all low range AoE, while the big boys still get to play.

What should've been done is actually rebalancing the "big boy" AoEs (The Zarrs, Brammas, Envoys, Ogris, Tonkor, Sporelacer, Akarius) then seeing what needs to be done.

🤣

you do realize that almost all aoe weapons perform worse than ignis wraith? (mr9 weapon for 15k credits)
there is only one weapon with top performance and it is KUVA ZARR.
but fairy tales are constantly being spread here. even wukong is said to be "OP"..........

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

2 minutes ago, Dunkelheit said:

The changes are kinda subtle, why do you think this way? They did not even nerf the powerlevel of Wukong, they just made him more active to play. Why is that so bad? Why should a more engaging gameplay lead to a more boring game? For me it is the opposite, but maybe you can explain a bit better.

It's the reasoning behind the changes; one of the same reasons used to nerf the Catchmoon... for instance: nerfing because of popularity.
The whole "if everyone's using it, we better nerf it!"... even if the thing isn't all that great, but offers a pleasant gameplay experience. They're stuck in the flaw of thinking "if everyone's using it, if you're not, you're playing wrong" mentality... that's just bonkers to me.

There are SO MANY reasons that people use things, or in particular "keep using" things... by design, this game makes it preferable to keep using a weapon you've invested in, and suits your playstyle (and is efficient in clearing the objectives that the game sets before you.) Such as: Forma investment, limited weapon slots (people who are low on plat will only keep the things they like, and not experiment with (or invest forma in) every new weapon that comes along. This leads people to "lean on" their old favorites, even if something "technically" better (or side-grade) comes along.

And if I were to see a weapon become surprisingly popular, I'd say keep making more weapons like that.

If they truly see using AoE being such a huge negative gameplay experience... they should provide new missions and objectives that do not reward AoE weaponry being used... spread out the "most effective tactic available" across a wider range of weapons and frames... since no single tactic would be most effective in all situations, it would force people who really want to min-max, to change up their arsenal... if it's really THAT important to the devs that people actually do that.

Personally, I'll just keep using what I find fun... and if it's not fun, I won't play (I nearly didn't play for the entire year after the melee stance rework, until polearm quick-melee returned. The game was just a horrible experience without that fluid play style that was destroyed for a year.

I'm not someone who would EVER suggest nerfing something that brings someone else fun in this game. The more fun they have, the better. It doesn't make my experience any worse. (people who care about kill counts, or having nothing to kill... just boggle my mind as to how those situations could be bad things... when the objectives are being completed.)

 

[Silligoose]

2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Finally DE confirmed their AoE changes,

 

So its mostly going to be Ammo related and some minor changes to some mods that indirectly affect it like radius mods and ammo mutation.

For ammo , the types of ammo will be changing from 4 to 2 (primary and secondary),

Ammo pickups will be greater for those weapons with a greater ammo pool , and less for those with a smaller ammo pool ,

Ammo overall will drop less as well,

Primed blast range mods will have their radius reduced to 44% at max,

Ammo mutation changes werent detailed, but will be present,

 

They may make more changes if the impact is not significant enough,

 

This is something i personally advocated so i am looking forward to it.

I do think LoS and self stagger is still something that should be considered , but we shall see.

 

What about you guys?

I'm glad to hear ammo drops will FINALLY be based on max ammo capacity, more so because high ammo pool, high fire rate weapons do run into ammo problems more often than other weapons.

I doubt it will affect the AoE meta much, since it isn't really addressing the problem. Will have to hear more and eventually see how it plays.

[trst]

24 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I am disgusted by the reasoning used to make the changes they decided to make.
I think they're just making things less fun overall.
I personally don't use AoE weapons or Wukong, so I'm not mad about things changing for me, but it sets a terrible (IMO) pattern that I highly despise as a lover of fun and not caring what makes other people happy. Generally changes "like this" only lead to a more boring game over time... slowly chipping away at what players have at their disposal.

If you're a "lover of fun" then you should really love any nerfs to AOE. As the whole problem is that they're used to remove fun from other players.

As is you only get to have fun by using these builds, play solo, or enjoy doing something else while others do your mission for you. If they successfully nerf AOE with this then it opens up gameplay options, build choices, and engagement opportunities for all players. Literally increasing the ways and potential for people to enjoy the game.

[----Legacy----]

8 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

It's the reasoning behind the changes; one of the same reasons used to nerf the Catchmoon... for instance: nerfing because of popularity.
The whole "if everyone's using it, we better nerf it!"... even if the thing isn't all that great, but offers a pleasant gameplay experience. They're stuck in the flaw of thinking "if everyone's using it, if you're not, you're playing wrong" mentality... that's just bonkers to me.

The issue arises when people start being funneled to use the popular thing just because if they don't then they end up left out of the fun.

Fwiw, if you look at: 

The Banshee section ends with a statement that pretty much reflects why the AoE meta is overall bad for the game: “I want to enjoy this horde shooter, but where are the hordes?”. Things aren't nerfed for being popular, they are being nerfed for being disruptive towards the gameplay of other players instead. 

[(PSN)AyinDygra]

4 minutes ago, trst said:

If you're a "lover of fun" then you should really love any nerfs to AOE. As the whole problem is that they're used to remove fun from other players.

As is you only get to have fun by using these builds, play solo, or enjoy doing something else while others do your mission for you. If they successfully nerf AOE with this then it opens up gameplay options, build choices, and engagement opportunities for all players. Literally increasing the ways and potential for people to enjoy the game.

I disagree entirely. See my extended reply above.

I do not want to take away the fun of others, just so I can have "more fun"... I wouldn't be selfish. I do not feel the need to be constantly killing things personally. I do like to contribute to the completion of objectives in a mission. If I'm just support, fine. I'm good with that.

[(PSN)M00n_Slippers]

I don't think the changes will effect me much, but I'm not sure if it will help either. I see the issues they do and agree with them. I'm somewhat worried about weapons like Tenet Tetra and Kuva Kohm and Acceltra that run out of ammo super fast already but I'll have to see how that works out. Also In Granum Void and Lephantis fights where ammo hardly or never drops as it is I'm not sure how well it it will work out. Personally I appreciate that the team have tried to protect what I like about AOE, and I understand their cautious approach. Still I think changing Primed Sure Footed to remove protection from self-inflicted AOE knockback and hard-locking Kuva/Tenet Weapons MR so an MR 8 can't get one and then use it in everything where it's power is unnecessary, would have been more impactful. But I will reserve judgement until I have had a chance to play with the changes in-game.

[Hayrack]

So... Ammo mutation mods will be dead/removed?

[(PSN)M00n_Slippers]

3 minutes ago, Hayrack said:

So... Ammo mutation mods will be dead/removed?

I think they still work but just between secondaries and primaries, so they probably won't be as needed for some weapons.

[trst]

29 minutes ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I disagree entirely. See my extended reply above.

I do not want to take away the fun of others, just so I can have "more fun"... I wouldn't be selfish. I do not feel the need to be constantly killing things personally. I do like to contribute to the completion of objectives in a mission. If I'm just support, fine. I'm good with that.

My point still applies. And it isn't a case of "taking away fun" so others can have "more", it's reducing the amount of "potential fun" of a single playstyle and allowing others to have fun at all with everything else without being forced to play the game solo.

If anyone is being selfish in regards to all this it's the people trying to defend AOE from nerfs as it's already taken many things from others. And if you enjoy playing support then that's great for you as you'll still get to do that in any situation. But not everyone enjoys playing exactly as you do and some of those playstyles are impossible due to them being crowded out by AOE.

[Tiltskillet]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

What should've been done is actually rebalancing the "big boy" AoEs (The Zarrs, Brammas, Envoys, Ogris, Tonkor, Sporelacer, Akarius) then seeing what needs to be done.

Yeah, that's a shame.  The nerfs they're going for will have a less effect on those and more on some fringe-y or barely AoE weapons.  And the ammo pickup changes might negatively impact some ammo constrained non-AoE weapons too, like Euphona, Twin Kohmak, and throwing knives.

But I think few expected them to go for precise balance changes.  In that low expectations context, I'm pretty happy with what they're doing...for a first step.  The true test will be what they do after this percolates for a bit.  Based on history, it's too easy to imagine they get busy with other things and don't follow up on this again for a few years.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

5 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Finally DE confirmed their AoE changes,

 

So its mostly going to be Ammo related and some minor changes to some mods that indirectly affect it like radius mods and ammo mutation.

For ammo , the types of ammo will be changing from 4 to 2 (primary and secondary),

Ammo pickups will be greater for those weapons with a greater ammo pool , and less for those with a smaller ammo pool ,

Ammo overall will drop less as well,

Primed blast range mods will have their radius reduced to 44% at max,

Ammo mutation changes werent detailed, but will be present,

 

They may make more changes if the impact is not significant enough,

 

This is something i personally advocated so i am looking forward to it.

I do think LoS and self stagger is still something that should be considered , but we shall see.

 

What about you guys?

I don't really think that's going to do much of anything since Ammo Mutation Mods still exist and there was no mention of nerfing the values. I imagine they'll just convert the ammo you pickup fully to Primary or Secondary, which makes the whole change null and void unless they're drastically nerfing them and similar ammo replenishment options like Carrier and Dispensary.

Like you suggested, the LoS check, less ways to ignore the self-stagger (like Primed Sure-Footed) and some more buffs to Single-Target weapons (like a small amount of Enemy Punch-Through) is going to have to happen before anything actually changes.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

2 hours ago, trst said:

If you're a "lover of fun" then you should really love any nerfs to AOE. As the whole problem is that they're used to remove fun from other players.

As is you only get to have fun by using these builds, play solo, or enjoy doing something else while others do your mission for you. If they successfully nerf AOE with this then it opens up gameplay options, build choices, and engagement opportunities for all players. Literally increasing the ways and potential for people to enjoy the game.

Seriously, I'm so tired of this meta myself. Half of the missions I don't even get to see the enemies before their vaporized, and the other half has me LITERALLY not being able to see because of the absurd amount of AoE particles going off.

I of course don't want AoE nerfed into the ground, it should still be an alternative playstyle just like Single-Target, but good lord, tone it down. I want to actually be able to play the game with the other 400 weapons we have that aren't AoE.

[cute_moth.npc]

I think not going overboard right away was probably a good move, some of this stuff like making ammo changes makes me nervous because they historically don't do great with accounting for everything during a tweak but I am overjoyed that they are beginning to make some steps. 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

4 minutes ago, cute_moth.npc said:

I think not going overboard right away was probably a good move, some of this stuff like making ammo changes makes me nervous because they historically don't do great with accounting for everything during a tweak but I am overjoyed that they are beginning to make some steps. 

The easiest fix there is just to give the outliers more, or less, in their ammo pool to compensate. You don't have to get that crazy.

The Twin Gremlins (and a lot of the other Full-Auto Secondaries) are a good example, they've needed a massive ammo pool increase for years since they burn through it super fast. With this change they'll be even worse, but if DE just gives them more ammo in reserve they'll only receive bonuses.

Yet a weapon like the Opticor could probably use an ammo decrease, since it is an AoE weapon with a weirdely large ammo pool.

[Rantear]

5 часов назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

Primed blast range mods will have their radius reduced to 44% at max,

RIP weapons with small AoE that used the mod.

5 часов назад, 0_The_F00l сказал:

Ammo pickups will be greater for those weapons with a greater ammo pool , and less for those with a smaller ammo pool ,

Ammo overall will drop less as well.

RIP weapons with small ammo pools.
Athodai immediatly comes to mind.

Change from 4 ammo types to 2 is actually good, at least can't think of anything bad, It's also a direct nerf to Explosive Legerdemain.
Kinda sad I still haven't used that build, but I've encountered it a few times in my entire playtime, including today, funnily enough, and I'd say that it's the most disruptive and overpowered thing in the game currently.

Overall - not sure If current meta weapons will suffer greatly, non-meta, obscure weapons certaintly will, like Lenz, for example.
Seems like a blanket nerf on absolutely random weapons, and just like with Sonicor, I doubt buffs will come to those.

We'll see how it'll pan out, changing only the weapons themselves would've been preferrable, actually.
Now that I think about it, AoE vs Single Target seems to be the worst part of the Devstream, but thankfully along alot of really great announcements. Hopefully not alot of weapons will fall victim to collateral damage.

Also, since it's kinda on the same topic - changes to Wukong, glad they only nerfed the clone, but speaking from a position of fairness:
Clone spending ammo is a huge nerf to Wukong, outside of AoE weapons, Wuclone has absolutely horrendous accuracy, take any projectile weapon with pinpoint accuracy, and let your clone shoot, more than half the shots will always miss, it's like he always has Heavy Caliber equipped, It's probably was a balancing measure taken by Pablo when designing his rework, but with the new clone changes amount of weapons usable with a clone active reduced even further, even with the buff to marked target damage.
I don't think there will be any real justification to using him for anything other than being a decoy with melee (if you can afford to lose a mag or two when you melee someone.)
I hoped they would make him duration based, or do something interesting with him, but he'll pretty much be the helminth slot now, or you can use Nataruk, I guess.
Hmm, maybe letting players chose which weapon clone will use would've been a great addition, just to make him use secondaries. I used him before to put status procs on demolysts, but now with the buff to holster speed even that niche use is no longer required.
As for his 4 - sad that there are no changes to its stance animations, right now they're kinda wonky, and hard to hit enemies with sometimes, and that crawl animation mid-fight is just horrible and breaks the flow of combat, we'll see if having a vortex manages to turn Wukong into a new E-E-E-E-E-E-Excalibur.

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

RIP weapons with small AoE that used the mod.

RIP weapons with small ammo pools.
Athodai immediatly comes to mind.
 

The small AoE weapons will be impacted , but due to the nature of radius   area and volume , i don't think it will be that bad for them.

They will go from meh ,to slightly worse meh range.

Most of the smaller ammo pool weapons that aren't AoE are usually having some ammo efficiency gimmick based on skill , they will get impacted for sure , but those that used them as intended will probably not notice.

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

Change from 4 ammo types to 2 is actually good, at least can't think of anything bad, It's also a direct nerf to Explosive Legerdemain.

Kinda sad I still haven't used that build, but I've encountered it a few times in my entire playtime, including today, funnily enough, and I'd say that it's the most disruptive and overpowered thing in the game currently.

I hadn't even thought of the impact on ledgermain , thanks for highlighting it. This will be a double Nerf as the Mirage in question will have less ammo to use as well which will already be rare. 

I recommend putting it in feedback if DE missed it , could be collateral damage which may be avoided. But then again .... Maybe it's actually good for balancing her ?

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

Overall - not sure If current meta weapons will suffer greatly, non-meta, obscure weapons certaintly will, like Lenz, for example.

Seems like a blanket nerf on absolutely random weapons, and just like with Sonicor, I doubt buffs will come to those.

We'll see how it'll pan out, changing only the weapons themselves would've been preferrable, actually.
Now that I think about it, AoE vs Single Target seems to be the worst part of the Devstream, but thankfully along alot of really great announcements. Hopefully not alot of weapons will fall victim to collateral damage.

We shall see , and Lenz already has a unique ammo gimmick , maybe they will change it to match , 

We shall indeed see.

1 hour ago, Rantear said:

Also, since it's kinda on the same topic - changes to Wukong, glad they only nerfed the clone, but speaking from a position of fairness:

Clone spending ammo is a huge nerf to Wukong, outside of AoE weapons, Wuclone has absolutely horrendous accuracy, take any projectile weapon with pinpoint accuracy, and let your clone shoot, more than half the shots will always miss, it's like he always has Heavy Caliber equipped, It's probably was a balancing measure taken by Pablo when designing his rework, but with the new clone changes amount of weapons usable with a clone active reduced even further, even with the buff to marked target damage.
I don't think there will be any real justification to using him for anything other than being a decoy with melee (if you can afford to lose a mag or two when you melee someone.)
I hoped they would make him duration based, or do something interesting with him, but he'll pretty much be the helminth slot now, or you can use Nataruk, I guess.
Hmm, maybe letting players chose which weapon clone will use would've been a great addition, just to make him use secondaries. I used him before to put status procs on demolysts, but now with the buff to holster speed even that niche use is no longer required.
As for his 4 - sad that there are no changes to its stance animations, right now they're kinda wonky, and hard to hit enemies with sometimes, and that crawl animation mid-fight is just horrible and breaks the flow of combat, we'll see if having a vortex manages to turn Wukong into a new E-E-E-E-E-E-Excalibur.

I don't really wanna add wukong to the topic. But i think that too was fair , it will only impact those players that were being inactive and not those that still are relatively active.

Not sure if the iron staff buff is going to be really worth it though.

4 hours ago, (PSN)AyinDygra said:

I disagree entirely. See my extended reply above.

I do not want to take away the fun of others, just so I can have "more fun"... I wouldn't be selfish. I do not feel the need to be constantly killing things personally. I do like to contribute to the completion of objectives in a mission. If I'm just support, fine. I'm good with that.

You are free to disagree , everyone has their opinions and personal preferences, i try not to judge.

So I would also ask that you do not classify others as selfish just cause you are unable to understand their issues. Not everyone can happily sit in a corner while someone else plays the actual game.

There is a difference between being selfish and requesting things to be fair.

The reasoning that DE gave is well ... perfectly reasonable to me. 

Again , please try to realise there are players with different views than yours. 

5 hours ago, (XBOX)TheWayOfWisdom said:

Bramma gets by with 1 arrow per ammo already, so don't see an appreciable change there.

Firestorm nerfed for the sins of big boy Kuva/Tenet AoEs. Now it gets to be to be even more worthless for all low range AoE, while the big boys still get to play.

What should've been done is actually rebalancing the "big boy" AoEs (The Zarrs, Brammas, Envoys, Ogris, Tonkor, Sporelacer, Akarius) then seeing what needs to be done.

I think it's a good start at least , once ammo drops are regularised , max ammo can actually be used as a balancing mechanism going forward.

There will still be outliers i am sure , but there will now be another tool in the arsenal (hah) that can be used .

I am considering this more as a setting the foundation.

Personally, i feel primed firestorm was never that great on weapons with less than 3 m radius. But yes these weapons have even less of a reason to use it , like the thousand other mods that are not worth using. So not something I will be very sad about personally.

[Lutesque]

8 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What about you guys?

Thermal Sunder Titania ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As it has been Stated multiple Times... The Weapons were never the issue....

DE Didn't decided to make AoE because they were bored and had nothing better to do....they did it because surprise surprise Warframe requires a Metric Ton of Killing to actually make Decent Progress in all Content....

Ofcourse Nerf junkies have never had a response to that so I'm not expecting anything different this time....